DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Here We Go again... Open Season?

j/c

I don't have facebook but my wife saw this today posted on FB and it highlights the difference here in the USA and the RoTW. Saying this is more than guns is accurate - but it is also being used to deflect from the one most glaring thing that differentiates the USA from these other countries listed:

Mental illness is GLOBAL. Mass shootings are AMERICAN.

19 Countries with the Most School Shootings (total incidents Jan 2009-May 2018)
United States — 288
Mexico — 8
South Africa — 6
Nigeria & Pakistan — 4
Afghanistan — 3
Brazil, Canada, France — 2
Azerbaijan, China, Estonia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Kenya, Russia, & Turkey — 1

This is getting ridiculous . We need to understand that our land of liberty and land of freedom isn’t something that everyone can handle. The 2nd amendment was derived in a different social climate in the US. It needs to be amended based on the problems and cases that citizens have shown they can’t handle the so-called right. I don’t post many things on this format but enough is enough. Look at the numbers. Better yet, travel abroad. Then tell me that our American ideology is correct. Ignorance is a disease that’s more prevalent that Covid in the US!

I think having any conversation where a large % of the people involved in the discussion set their stall out to NOT talk about the number of firearms and what impact / role they play in the situation and statistics that sets the USA light years away from the RoTW is telling and ultimately part of the reason why no progress gets made.

Its not really a gun problem, its a social problem. You could also spin those stats differently and ask which countries have the most suicide bombings or mass murders at the hands of gangs/cartels. Other countries have different social problems that result in death. The united states isnt special when it comes to dramatic murders.

Well I guess if we compare ourselves to third world countries run by despots we are in good shape. We certainly don't want to look to Germany, Australia, New Zealand or other 1st world countries with similar social/economic structures and cultures ... that might make us look bad.

I agree you can spin stats just not sure I agree the direction you are headed with the drug cartel/gang angle. And it most certainly is a social problem - and a mental health problem - and those are problems experienced elsewhere in EU and in the first world / industrialized world. There's something more to it than just that.

I wonder how many board members own a gun or guns?

I wonder how many of those gun owners have ever shot another person?

I wonder how many of those gun owners know other gun owners?

I wonder how many of those people have shot another person?

But yeah, it's a "gun" problem.

I don't care much for guns. I have a 12 gauge shotgun and 20 gauge shotgun. I used them for hunting. Now, they are here for home defense because I don't hunt anymore unless it's to go to the Dakotas to hunt grouse. Right now, I have one additional handgun. A Beretta 9mm. It is also for home protection. I have given my other 2 guns to family members. I'm okay w/stricter gun laws. The only concern is that once one concession is made, history tells us that more will follow. I think it's ignorant to take guns away from the honest folks, because we all know that guns will never disappear from the planet and criminals get what they need.

The problem runs much deeper than guns. Hell, it is much deeper than mental illness and guns. There are so many factors contributing to this problem because of what is going on in our country. The divide is huge. Decency has diminished.

One thing that blows my mind is how most of these people who blame guns for all these mass murders is how they ignore the rising rate of suicides, especially w/our teenagers. Our guns the reason they are killing themselves? Or are the other factors the driving force. There is no doubt in my mind that if people want real answers, they need to link mass murders and suicides together.

We won't be fixing anything. We are too busy trying to prove that our side is right and other is to blame. Meanwhile, those w/out a side watch in horror as the the stupidity of the sides soar along w/the list of victims.

If we had laws making alcohol illegal, no one would ever get a DUI. Just like during prohibition!

If they would just make murder illegal....

My take away from your post, correct me if I am misunderstanding your intent: basically you are convinced guns have nothing to do with the problem? Anyone talking about the problem who thinks guns are PART of the problem don't want to find real answers and are too busy trying to prove they are right?

And to add, nobody is talking about all guns or even most guns. In fact I'm not talking about any guns. I'm talking about the capacity of rounds a gun should be able to fire without reloading. And I own a lot of guns.

You see, I don't need 30 rounds or 50 rounds of ammo in my rifle to hunt or target shoot or even for personal protection. You know, legal reasons for using and owning a firearm. And nobody has been willing to state any reason that they do.

And that seems to be a lot of the problem. When it comes to logic and reasoning, there is nothing one side is willing to compromise on at all.

You see, it doesn't matter what you think you need, it doesn't matter what other people think they need. This is still a mental health issue. Magazine capacity is equating engine HP to DUI. It distracts and is unimportant.


Do you see now? You see, you are wrong.

I do see. I see you still have no reason to need a magazine with such a high capacity and that you refuse to admit that in most cases school shooters are young and not very experienced with guns. That the time it takes to change a magazine gives people the opportunity to neutralize the shooter and could mean the difference between life and death for a lot of school children.

You seem to think that boiling at all down to claiming it's only a mental health issue is the perfect excuse to do nothing else that will help mitigate the situation other than send our children to schools that look more like an armed prison than a school.

Armed campus police do not prevent school shootings, research shows

Multiple studies have found no association between the presence of armed officers in schools and the deterrence of violence.

Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, has blamed others for politicizing the school shooting in Uvalde, Texas, to advance discussions about gun access.

To Cruz, the answer is simpler.

“We know from past experiences that the most effective tool for keeping kids safe is armed law enforcement on the campus,” Cruz said in Washington on May 24, just hours after the shooting, before many details were known.

“Inevitably when there’s a murder of this kind, you see politicians try to politicize it, you see Democrats and a lot of folks in the media whose immediate solution is to try to restrict the constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens. That doesn’t work. It’s not effective. It doesn’t prevent crime.”

Is it true that we know from “past experiences that the most effective tool for keeping kids safe is armed law enforcement on the campus”?

No.

Whether it’s anecdotal evidence or broad-based research, there is little to support Cruz’s claim. Let’s start with what happened in Uvalde, Texas.

Uvalde shooting details

Officials have offered various and conflicting reports at what happened at Robb Elementary School. On May 25, Director of the Texas Department of Public Safety Steven McCraw said that before 18-year-old Salvador Ramos entered the school and shot and killed at least 19 children and two teachers, he was confronted by a district school resource officer, a common title for armed police officers who work on school grounds.

“There was a brave consolidated independent school district resource officer that approached (Ramos), engaged him and, at that time, gunfire was not exchanged,” McCraw said. “The subject was able to make it into the school.”

Other media accounts offer some different details about the number of officers and the level of confrontation.

And then on May 26, Texas law enforcement officials said Ramos was able to enter the school unobstructed and that a school resource officer was not on scene.

“He walked in unobstructed initially,” said Victor Escalon, regional director for the Texas Department of Public Safety.

Law enforcement officers ultimately shot and killed Ramos, McCraw said, but not before at least 21 people were killed and 17 additional people were injured.
The Sante Fe, Texas, shooting

In 2018, in Texas, Cruz responded to another school shooting, this one at Santa Fe High School, in Santa Fe, Texas.

In that case, the shooter was confronted by two police officers who were stationed at the school, according to a local sheriff. The officers, one of whom was shot during the attack, “hemmed the gunman into one classroom and saved lives by drawing his attention and fire,” the sheriff said.

About 30 minutes after the shooting started, the 17-year-old suspect surrendered to law enforcement. A total of 10 people were killed and 13 were wounded. Multiple explosive devices were also found at or near the school, officials said.

The Trace, a nonprofit newsroom that focuses on gun issues, found that in Santa Fe and in three other prominent shootings in 2018 — Kentucky’s Marshall County High School in January; Florida’s Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in February; Maryland’s Great Mills High School in March — “attackers stormed campuses despite the presence of armed guards.” In each case, guards failed to stop the shooter from killing.

What research says about armed law enforcement in schools

Broader research provides not much support for Cruz’s claim that armed law enforcement officers on school grounds are the “most effective tool” for keeping kids safe from mass shootings.

A 2021 study conducted by researchers from University at Albany and RAND examined data from U.S. schools between 2014 to 2018 to evaluate the impact of school resource officers. It found that school resource officers “do effectively reduce some forms of violence in schools, but do not prevent school shootings or gun-related incidents.”

In addition, that study found that school resource officers appear to protect students from “a non-trivial number of physical attacks and fights within schools,” which could have long-term academic and psychological benefits for students. But schools with resource officers also report more suspensions, expulsions, police referrals and student arrests — and those harsher disciplinary punishments disproportionately fall on Black students, male students and students with disabilities.

Another 2021 JAMA Network study conducted by researchers at Hamline University and Metropolitan State University in Minnesota examined a total of 133 school shootings and attempted school shootings from 1980 to 2019.

It was limited by the availability of public data and the inability to measure deterred shootings, among other factors, but researchers found that, controlling for other factors such as location, school type and region, the data showed “armed guards were not associated with significant reduction in rates of injuries” during school mass shootings.

Further, when researchers controlled for location and school characteristic factors, “the rate of deaths was 2.83 times greater (emphasis added) in schools with an armed guard present.”

Pete Blair, the executive director of the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center at Texas State University, said armed individuals can play a role in stopping school shootings in progress but cautioned against any claim that it’s “the most effective tool” or that it prevents school shootings.

In Illinois in 2018, for instance, officials credited an officer with avoiding a potential school shooting involving a student at the school. The shooter’s mother said she thought her son was trying to get the police to kill him. Only the shooter was injured.

Blair said the ALERRT Center is part of a group that works with the FBI to release annual active shooter data. The FBI defines an active shooter as “one or more individuals actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a populated area.”

That data shows that from 2000 until 2021, there have been 434 active shooter incidents, Blair said. This includes shooter incidents in schools and elsewhere.

“The most common resolution is for the attacker to flee,” Blair said, which happened in about 25% of all cases.

In about the same number of cases, the shooting stopped when a responding on-duty police officer, armed security or off-duty officer shot the attacker, he said.

Blair said the data isn’t specific enough to break down whether police officers who used force to stop an attack were already stationed there at the time — as a school resource officer likely would be — or were called in specifically to respond to the incident.

Dewey Cornell, a professor of education at the University of Virginia who studies school safety, bullying and student threat assessment, said he has seen research that suggests school resource officers “can be valuable in building relationships with students and working with threat assessment teams, but not as armed guards protecting the campus from a shooter.”

“I know of no scientific evidence that having armed law enforcement on campus by itself keeps kids safe at school,” he said. “We have prevented school shootings by identifying threats and working with troubled students before they make an attack.”
Are armed officers a deterrent?

PolitiFact found no studies or research that conclusively showed that the presence of armed officers deterred people from targeting schools.

“From a theoretical point of view, it makes sense. Trying to prove it empirically can be difficult,” Blair said. “I can’t point to any specific cases and say, here’s this specific case where this person said, they looking at this and they chose not to because there was an armed security guard there.’”

The 2021 JAMA Network study said data suggested “no association between having an armed officer and deterrence of violence” in mass shootings from 1980 to 2019.

“Prior research suggests that many school shooters are actively suicidal, intending to die in the act, so an armed officer may be an incentive rather than a deterrent,” the study said.

Steve Guest, a spokesperson for Cruz, pointed to a 2019 Vox article that referenced 2005 research that suggested increased police presence leads to fewer people committing crimes. The article and research wasn’t looking at school shootings specifically.

The spokesperson also referenced a 2018 report that found for 238 middle and high schools in West Virginia, the presence of resource officers “increases the number of reported incidents related to drug crime as well as the number of out-of-school suspensions for drug crime, but decreases violent crime and disorder when multiple years are considered.” Again, the report wasn’t looking at school shootings specifically. It did say that school resource officers are more likely to work with law enforcement to create a written plan for “how to deal with shootings.”
Our ruling

Cruz said, “We know from past experiences that the most effective tool for keeping kids safe is armed law enforcement on the campus.”

A 2021 JAMA Network study said data found “no association between having an armed officer and deterrence of violence” in mass shootings from 1980 to 2019. A 2021 study by the University at Albany and RAND said school resource officers “do not prevent school shootings or gun-related incidents.”

We rate this claim False.

https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/do-armed-school-police-officers-prevent-shootings/

I may or may not have a need.

Tell you what, YOU don't want them don't buy them. Stop talking at everyone like you think you are some dissatisfied parent to us all.

Everything that is important in this country is protected by people with guns that use magazines of various sizes, except children. Oh wait, several places do allow staff to carry, and they don't have mass shootings in schools.

I have never said do nothing. I have sId to arm staff. Your spin of that is younsaying I said do nothing. Arm staff. See I said it again for you to ignore in your quest to spin and distract.

Should I say it again or did you notice this time I gave a solution that isn't "do nothing"?

This is a terrible and inaccurate analogy. I don't think magazine capacity impacts most shootings - but it most definitely has the ability to has the potential to impact mass shootings of any kind let alone a school shooting.

And this is exactly the sort of "don't touch my guns" head in the sand and deflect tactic we see every time a conversation takes place. Regardless of whether it has happened before - it's just common sense that there is no justifiable reason for a 30 round clip. Squawking about it and trying to come up with meaningless analogies doesn't help.

Speed kills. More speed makes DUI crashes deadlier. It is a great analogy.


So several people here were upset about Jackson. The left was told "common sense abortion control" and " we don't want to make every abortion illegal" outside of a few people said the quiet part out loud. In the end control was about banning. There have been several times the left said the quiet part out loud. Some people are with it because the don't think free citizens can or should own arms.

Focusing on an object instead of the behavior and how best to repel that behavior is not squaking or meaningless. Just because you think guns are bad doesn't mean thet aren't useful. We should protect children better than we protect politicians.

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/do...ial-olympics/6YN333WOTRG4VCEKRFD6QGI5EA/

A man with a gun in a high school stadium that fled school SROs. But SROs will make zero difference.

Dude eventually pulled a gun on cops and won't make that mistake again.

j/c:

So, one of the usual suspects intentionally misrepresents my intentions and once again, the only thing that is being talked about is guns. Let's ignore social media, bullying, gross political divide, broken homes, lack of accountability. no respect for authority, anxiety, substance abuse, behavioral disorder, inequality, cyberbullying, emotional fragility, lack of consequences for poor behavior, social/ethnic divisions, media sensationalization, lack of physical activity, etc, etc.

Guns are part of the problem. But, not the driving force. America's environment births and nurtures emotionally weakness and leaves its victims feeling trapped, tortured, outraged, and seeing no way out. For some, the choices are to act out w/deadly violence. Others choose to take their own lives. Both are escape avenues for tortured souls that we have helped create.

Now, back to guns and political sides.

If anyone would like to have an intelligent conversation about the topic, I'm willing to participate. Please, don't let a poster or two limit conversation w/their false accusations. There is a plethora of information out there on the issues today's youth face. Do some research and we can have a meaningful conversation despite the efforts of a few. Another good topic to research is divisiveness in the United States. Guess where we rank? I believe it is a contributing factor of why we have so many more shootings here in this country than others. Here is one article from a couple of years ago on the topic. https://www.latimes.com/politics/ne...n-in-worldwide-survey-essential-politics

I am convinced that the issues of mass murders and suicide are not strictly limited to gun control. I'm also convinced that even adding mental illness is enough to accurately cover the topic. Now, a lot of the factors such as anxiety, behavioral disorders, depression, etc can be categorized as mental illness. But, there is more going on. I also think the political, ethnic, racial, and even religious divide are adversely affecting our nation as a whole. These ideals are being passed down to our youths, often unwittingly.

I know some don't like to hear this, but video games, TV, and other electronic devices are hurting our youth. It's not that they are evil, but they are often solitary. Staring at a screen in isolation is not all that healthy. Obesity among children [and adults] is skyrocketing. No one can honestly say that playing a video game, watching TV, or texting for hours on end is more healthy--physically, mentally, and emotionally--than actually going outside and playing ball w/the kids in the neighborhood. Climbing a tree in the woods is better than watching a documentary on woodland areas. Cooperating w/others on your pickup team beats solitary isolation of staring at blue screen for hours.

I could go on and on, but again, there are just so many contributing circumstances that lead to mass murders and suicides. However, I do understand that for many folks, arguing about gun control is a fascinating topic. I wonder if it might just be a great topic for those people as a stand alone topic. It could be entitled: Take a Side, Not a Sidearm. The extremists can argue for days over their political divide w/out disrespecting the tragic loss of lives. I understand why the phrase mocking "thoughts and prayers" came about. Then again, I also understand why immediately making a shooting a political topic is so absolutely wretched.

He who has the son has the Father also. He who does not have the son does not have the Father either.

..........................

The world won't see the world is the problem.
...................
The world has been established and it shall not be moved.

There are guns at many mass shootings while they are ongoing, and they don't get used. And as a parent, I also witnessed a kid full of life in my home one night while he and his brother hung out with my oldest two. The next day the older brother shows up in tears and just flings himself in for a hug as he fights through the emotions and gasps, trying to catch his own breath from the overwhelming despair to let us know that his little brother shot and killed himself that morning while playing with a gun in front of a mirror. So forgive me when I think these talking points practice flawed logic and ridiculous, illogical leaps to non-conclusions. This is truly representative of the vile transformation MAGA wrought upon the GOP. I thought people might WAKE UP when Trump goes down, but DeStains, the FL douchebag doubles down with race-baiting, anti-Semitic tropes, and an obvious attempt to show the MAGA world that his dumb ass is ready to take the reins and drive the party the rest of the way over the cliff. He has ZERO chance of ever becoming POTUS. ZERO, just like Trump and his spawn.

A vague statement without supporting facts is useless.

There have been guns in schools when shootings have occurred, there are many more the opposite. In my sweeties school the one SRO was on the far side of the school when the gun was pointed at her and discharged. Thankfully they were able to subdue the gunman with the help of the SRO but that is the exception not the rule.


The idea of a free man keeping arms for protection did not start with Trump. It is not some MAGA conspiracy. But, I suppose, you need to blargh about it all.

Once again, more insults from the left. This is not an example of constructive or fair-minded conversation. It's it hateful rhetoric w/name calling, labeling, and insults that only furthers the divide. And we wonder why we can't solve the problem. The saddest part is that what many are intentionally or unintentionally teaching their own children.

I agree guns and ammo and the types of guns aren’t the issue. I can’t get passed how easy it is for anyone to get them.

guns are tools. so, it makes sense that people have easy access to them.

It would seem that every single mass killer is mentally unhealthy.

So, I do think that mental health history would be valuable to have as a starting point.

I would be curious to know what would be decided as "mentally healthy"

j/c:

CBS execs bar the word ‘transgender’ from reports on Nashville shooter: ‘This is not journalism’

https://nypost.com/2023/03/30/cbs-e...0buttons&utm_campaign=site%20buttons

I don’t think it would be too hard to set a federal gun safety and mental health curriculum for lessons and testing before purchasing a gun. But that’s taking it too far, right?

I don't think the mentally unfit should be permitted to purchase guns.

They would have no problem labelling a white male a supremist or nationalist or whatever ist they don't like. Let's not report the news. Let's create narrative. Journalism is dead in America. We have become what we used to make fun of in the old USSR. The Government decides what is a story and how it is reported.

Yet I have shown you where even the man in charge of SRO's on the national level stated plainly that their presence will not stop school shootings. I've shown you school shooting where there were SRO's in place have happened.

Facts don't matter to you either.

You see, I don't oppose having SRO's in schools as long as it's handled discreetly so the kids don't feel like they're in a prison. I'm all for a complete overhaul of our mental care system. It's terrible and not only would it help with young people but also the mass amount of homeless people out on America's streets with mental issues.

But it seems that people such as yourself thinks that's the point at which everything should stop. That even though nobody can or will state any legitimate reason to give young people access to having a magazine that can kill and would up to 30 people without reloading is some hill worth dying on. That's just sad. I'm for doing everything to help solve the issue. While some are only willing to go half way.

I did not know this. How did she cope afterwards?

JMHO- you're wrong. Obviously, this ain't USSR- the word/acts are out in the open, and folks can comment on it.

Journalism is dead- AGREE to an extent. Information era- EVERYTHING is news- President slips on stairs getting on to a plane----THAT'S news--- I care if Taliban killed a teacher in Kabul. There are no filters- TV new is astronomically paid commentators who give opinions to sheep watching and listening to what they want to hear. And, they call it NEWS. Unreal.

Facts do matter to me. What you continue to miss, likely pointedly, is I have not suggested more SROs. Most schools have 1 or 2 of those. They cannot be expected to cover an entire school Can't happen. What I have suggested, several times, is arming school staff.

You google seach debate piece is about SROs, not school staff. Do I need to say school staff again so you can stop trying to change this to SRO?

Utah has allowed school staff to carry for 20 years (give or take). They have not had a school shooting in that time. No I don't count the ND from a teacher.

If guns are useless in stopping shooters the police would not carry them.

So , you see, you have tried to alter the solution I have suggested several times, and you see, I have to point it out again and again.

So you promote arming people that have no experience in dealing with such situations rather than people who have. People who have never faced a loaded weapon head on rather than people who have. Retired police officers and former military personnel would make much more sense.

She had partial hearing loss from a muzzle blast next to her ear. It has gotten better but she'll never hear as well again. "eh, whatcha say?"

Other than that she was pretty low key in dealing with it. She has shown up for victim impact meetings when the piece of garbage tries to get parole or moved to a better prison.

I want to put guns into the hands of people who being slaughtered so they can effectively fight for their lives.

Que you "the world is full of yahoos" nonsense.

I keep forgetting, you think anyone should be able to carry a gun with no experience or training. I hope you don't include the shop teacher with the three fingers. I'm not sure he would fare well.

This is probably also why they haven't released the manifesto yet. It was a hate crime against Christians. Got to cover up the facts because they don't fit the left's agenda.

I keep forgetting you think you are trained better than everyone else so only you should be able to carry a gun for protection. The rest of us can just rely on luck and wishful thinking.

So you equate being trained to no training at all. Got it.

And there's the changing what I said to suit your argument. This is where I point out, yet again, you will lie to win and argument.