DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus More Virtues of Organized Religion

Religion is a good guide. No doubt one doesn't need to be religious to have character. I don't really care which religion one might follow.

And I'll say it again, not due to actions by the Church. It wasn't until the victims came forward. It's not as though the Catholic church investigated those priests and voluntarily turned them in and handed out money for their wrong doing. No, they were sued for that money and law enforcement stepped in to investigate these priests after the victims came forward. The church itself tried to hide these priests and keep it all quiet.


The Catholic church weren't holding them accountable.


One would hope so but that's a very questionable conclusion.

That is a total lie. Maybe you should read it again? I'm a believer and I started the thread. The thread is about how corrupt organized religion can be. It's an example of what can happen when you allow yourself to follow men who claim to teach the word of God rather than the word of God itself. What a thread evolves into is a different matter. But that isn't and wasn't "the purpose of this thread".


The other side? For all you know that man was in Church early that morning. See, you have no way of knowing. Some of the most hateful and nasty acting people I've known were church going people that were self described Christians. What you did was observe someone acting like an ass and then just assuming they weren't a Christian because they didn't fit into your neat little box of how a Christian is supposed to act.

I belonged to the FOE for many years. I was actually the Chaplain for the Eagles for years in two different locations. The vast majority of their members were Christians. And if you don't think they got drunk, cursed and acted like asses you would be extremely mistaken. It appears you just labeled someone as "the other side" without having any idea if they were or not.

And those who talk about indoctrination? This is coming from a four year old....



Hey, those are their children so they can indoctrinate them as they see fit. But they need to stop acting like that's not what they're doing.

The first of the video links that Memphis posted talks about this - and it's not something I have thought about before, but yes. As parents we teach our kids a lot when they are very young, they come to believe what we tell them is true - fire is hot and will burn, falling will hurt, etc - when parents tell them about God - why wouldn't any child take it as an absolute truth rather than a believe/opinion ? Ricky G said it better ... but you know what I am getting at.

Yes and that's why I made the response to Memphis. As I said, I'm a believer myself. I told my child about my beliefs while she was growing up. But I also told her that wasn't the only belief system. I explained that there were may religions and teachings. And that even within Christian churches the belief on what the Bible actually says varies greatly from church to church. That the Bible, faith and what you believe is a personal decision. She too believes but is also not affiliated with any religion.

She is a very kind, compassionate and giving person as well as being successful. A Father couldn't be more blessed than I am.

I don’t dislike Christians for their faith, I dislike when they push it on others, Mr. One Issue. And, YES, you do.

OCD, we just typing and discussing---sort of, by the way, Happy Father's Day, if you are one- I'll assume- you are- it's a great gig if done right. I get you don't believe in organized religion...you stated IF there is a God...then mentioned about the sun, rock, the universe and all that--OK, mentioned comprehension---you didn't mention if you'd had checked out the Shroud video- I ain't great posting stuff, but check out the Shroud of Turin website---you could get lost/ hundreds of posting/ and many scientific--it ain't important- just more important than anything you'd ever do= football sites, baseball, cars, women, art, music--you get the drift. You've heard it all before, got it, FREE WILL, do as you please---but are you curious just a little- how can this thing exist after 2000+ years, it is FAKE, right- but WHY does it exist, who did it, how can it be on the cloth, but NOT imprinted on it- some kind of magic- pollen, historical linage, Jerusalem limestone dirt/dust....it is all BS, but what if it isn't--check it out--or watch another old movie.

JMHO, Gandhi stated- I'd like Christians if I'd ever met one---or something to that effect. True words- lots of fakes in the world- but lot of good folks too. Religions are run by imperfect men/ some women- Bible has most things covered-beat up organized religion-"you without sin, pick up the stone and throw it"--ain't any of us perfect- we should be working towards that- I got a long way to go....Peace, and Happy Father's Day to all.

Thanks and Happy Father’s Day to you as well. And since we’re just talking sort of; years ago I had a close client/friend that had a early Christian museum full of artifacts both BC and early AD. I’ve held stone boxes I believe were called coffers that they would collect the bones of the dead and store them in like we use urns for ashes. I’ve held and examined hundreds of everyday items and religious artifacts from that time period. So I’m not that amazed. As for the shroud, I thought carbon dating placed it somewhere between 900 and 1200 years old. Unless that was somehow proven to be wrong, there is simply no way Jesus wore it 2000 years ago.

But hey, I’m always open to actual scientific facts or debunking, so maybe one day they can prove it beyond a doubt. But until they do, it’s as fake as the bones of Saints the church used to push to fill seats and take people’s money. That’s just how I feel about it.

And one of my major sticking points with Christianity, besides my thinking it foolish, is the timeline. We know the earth is at least 4.5 Billion Years old. Bible says man came on the scene the first week. Really? Fossil records don’t show that. And I don’t think a human could even have lived then simply due to the environment on early earth.

It really doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks of your faith, because if you are truly faithful, then your faith is all you need. At least that’s what I hear… Either way, I don’t like bashing Christianity. But I will lash out against religion every time people bastardize it to serve their own ends. It’s a moral thing. People do absurd and hateful things in the name of religion, especially GOPers, imo. The current hate filled culture wars are almost 100 percent manufactured by the right in order to push an extremist agenda. And Christians have tied their ‘brand’ to it. So you’ll have to pardon an OCD bashing here and there, because it’s the right thing to do. When people like me quit bashing it, you can get the women folk you know ready for those red capes.

Do not

Woohoo fun acting like kids again.

As far as your disliking when it's pushed on you, well that feeling goes both ways bro.

OCD, you're 100% correct about many things you stated- many/most Christians struggle with historical facts- Crusaders/ Moslems- lets kill each other over religion- ain't God great---he is, but we sure screw it up. Your artifacts/collection- Christians/Catholics pedalled bones-stuff for centuries---don't forget religious/GOPers/Dem all doing stuff for the greater good/ justifies their actions- flawed men and women all--- OK, now I've buttered you up. Wait for it- carbon dating- the two British guys who got all the press- medieval linen. They got their jobs- see a pattern. If the Shroud is real- how much does the Church let get snipped and burned? STURP, which had years to organize, then execute screwed up the sample area. Additionally, McCrone- renowned microscope guy stated- not blood, but paint----yet, other learned scientists showed his analysis if wrong---so, who to believe or waste time on. I'd ask you or anyone to check the preponderance of evidence and reach your conclusion---but have an open mind. I'll bet on one thing for sure- no one gets out of this state alive. And, for me, Jesus Christ did exist, he claimed to be the son of God, and he died for you and me- call it faith. JMHO, the Shroud of Turin is his receipt to world.

Lastly, Catholic Church has been burnt too many times to OFFICIALLY recognize it---in future, who knows?

Ridiculous questions. Christians don’t do those things.

Christians sin just like non christians. We are no better than anybody else.

right but dont sin then turn around and judge others as if you (general you) dont sin. i mean god gave yall 10 basic commandments to follow, and yall cant even do that

Atheist don’t sin. Sin is a word in organized religion meaning acts against the rules of god and or the church. How can an Athiest sin, if they don’t believe in any of the BS?

No they can’t, but they can damn sure push their beliefs on others, not so much at the ballot box, just in slimy corrupt maneuvers and back room deals. As if that wasn’t enough, they stole the Supreme Court seats to overturn Roe v Wade. If republicans couldn’t cheat in EVERYTHING they do, they’d never win another seat. I would think any so called Christian aligned with that party is by default a sinner, and a bad Christian because they all look the other way and forget god for the good of that vile party.

Yeah, but a couple of Hail Mary's and Our Father's takes care of all that.

Like i said we all sin. Myself included, and i do my best not to judgee anybody

I'm just curious here. How is it being "pushed on you"? I mean I understand that it's in the news and on some level you have to see it as a result. But how exactly is that being pushed on you? Is the trans community trying to pass laws that forces the "Ten commandments of Trans" to be posted in our schools? Are they trying to ban books about straight Americans in libraries? Are they trying to ban straight marriage or trying to pass laws that schools not mention straight people?

As far as I can tell all anyone seems to be doing on a grand scale is trying to teach that they exist and should be treated fairly and not be discriminated against like the rest of us. We're both old enough to remember the nasty way our generation talked about being gay and made so many derogatory and hateful comments about it. Why? Because gay people were ostracized and scorned due to them being different. A lot of pain was inflicted on those people. It certainly makes me wonder how much differently things may have been had we been taught more about tolerance of people that are different than ourselves.

Now don't get me wrong, just like everything else there are points at which I think people take things to the extreme. I feel that's what happens when they demand to compete in women's sports. But I think we can both point to how people from all political groups and causes take things to extremes and you don't have to take an entire topic and buy into it all hook, line and sinker.

I would just like for you to take a look around and see where so many politicians and states have made these people a target of their ire. Enacting laws that make it not only illegal to stand up for people that are different than ourselves, but to go so far as to make it illegal to even mention them or have a discussion about them with their children. Teaching tolerance of others isn't something I think should be a target of government. They are the ones who have brought this to the front and center of the news.

I know you. I know you aren't a hateful or spiteful person. Quite the opposite in fact. So I'm not trying to suggest that your beliefs or feelings are in any way meant as egregious. And while we disagree on certain topics I know your intentions are sincere and well meaning no matter those disagreements. However I think we both agree that the world in general and as well as our country would be much better off if we had more tolerance and understanding and that to open the door to target certain people because of their sexuality is yet another means of division.

I would hope to see an end to such a huge lack of tolerance and exclusion, and yes, even targeting towards a certain group of such people, made not only as accepted, but becoming the law in many states in our nation. We've seen throughout our nations history where such things have been done based on sexuality, color and even religion. 9/11 was a prime example of how this nation turned its hatred towards the Muslim community based on the actions of one of the most extreme sects of their religion.

This is just a rerun of what we've learned in the past is not how this nation should conduct itself. As you yourself stated and I agree, Christians sin too. Yet we sit and watch them pick and choose which sins they target and rail against and which ones they pretty much ignore. I find that to be very troubling.

More from today 50 years of abuse in Baltimore.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/06/20/baltimore-catholic-church-priest-abuse-contd-orig-aw.cnn

It turns my stomach. These perverts have ruined lives and are free. Disgusting.

GM was talking about Roe. He thinks it was PUSHED ON HIM. I never knew he had an abortion, did you? He’s either mad about his ovaries getting scrambled OR he thinks Christian’s are morally superior (as if) to everyone who believes in choice. It’s a stuck on stupid Christian thing.

GM losing the majority is not having it pushed on you. The majority of Americans have wanted legal safe abortion since before Roe. That is still the case. FACT. And the overturning of Roe only happened due to cringy af political tactics and GOPers stealing TWO seats. If you can’t see the difference between a woman’s right to control her body vs. your minority christo-fascist assumed right to push your bible thumping ideology on the majority, I can’t help you and want nothing to do with you.

Oh, and just so you know, abortions will be performed as long as people have sex, they will happen one way or another.

Just because YOU, yep YOU don't believe does not mean it's not true. You see I don't come on these boards every day and tell everybody how bad a group of people are (as you do) you know the KKK does that, those on the far right do that, those on the far left do that. Have you ever heard me bashing athiests, or agnostics every day on the board?

I was talking about a lot of things Miss Cleo. However since you want to go there. You go on and on about school shootings and other shootings. Have you ever been killed or shot in that situation .... NO well then according to you then you should have no say or opinion on the matter. As far as my overies getting scrambled well there you go again showing your true colors. That has nothing to do with this subject it's just you attempting to get a dig in.


You sir are a liar. That is not name calling it's a fact. I have said many times on these boards Christians (myself included) are no better than anybody else. You however Sir show in your posts every day that you think your better than others. You think your opinions are the only ones that matter or are correct. You put others down on a daily basis just because they don't agree with you.

I will get to your post tomorrow bro. I have to work today and don't have the time this morning.

The same way it's pushed on OCD. I have family who I don't agree with. I have heard the same things he and others have.

1. You don't go to church every sunday.... your going to hell
2. You ate at outback they serve alcohol ..... your going to hell
3. You had a beer... your going to hell.

I could go on and on you get the point.


I have zero problems with laws to protect trans folks, or for them to be treated fairly. I grew up in small town usa sharing a room with a gay brother back when gay people got treated like crap by many people.


Agreed 100 percent bro.


Your going to have to fill me in on those. I have not heard of any laws that make it illegal to stand up for anybody, or that make it illegal to talk to your own children.




We agree again.

Many people reject Jesus because of bad experiences with religious people, but here's the thing...... Jesus had bad experiences with religious people too. In fact they killed him.

People will let you down Jesus won't.

Well typed. This posting subject started with bashing organized religion. Great- but it doesn't cover all the GOOD religion does. Virtues vs Vices- is abortion good- no, it is killing, most societies denounce killing.

Jesus said love everyone- Christians and everyone else have problems with this- hate the sin/evil, work toward good.
We all judge and we shouldn't. I do to often- work for the good. Peace.

When someone is tried for a a horrific crime, explaining all the good they have done in the community doesn't work as an excuse for the crime they committed. I'm sure it makes THEM feel better about it though.

Yep, just like the Easter bunny won’t let you down. FFS, smh.

Ex-priest sentenced to 25 years for drugging and molesting men he met in New Orleans tourist area

METAIRIE, La. (AP) — A former Catholic priest in Louisiana has been sentenced to 25 years in prison after he pleaded guilty to drugging and molesting 17 men he met in a popular tourist area in New Orleans, a prosecutor said.

WVUE-TV reported that Stephen Sauer, 61, targeted people in the city’s French Quarter who appeared drunk, lost or in need of help, according to Jefferson Parish District Attorney Paul D. Connick Jr.

The crimes occurred from 2019 to 2021, and many of the victims were visiting from out of state, Connick said.

The investigation began in 2021 after Sauer sent a computer to an electronics repair company in New York. A technician found hundreds of images suggesting sexual assaults had occurred. New York law enforcement officials determined the images were taken in Metairie and notified the Jefferson Parish sheriff.

The prosecutor said Sauer put narcotics in men’s drinks at bars or gave them sleep-inducing drugs after they passed out from drinking. He then drove the victims to his home in the New Orleans suburb of Metairie, where he photographed or videotaped the unconscious men and molested some of them.

The Jefferson Parish Sheriff’s Office found during its investigation that Sauer shared the images with others through a website or by email.

Sauer was sentenced Friday after he pleaded guilty to 13 counts of sexual battery, nine counts of third-degree rape, 17 counts of video voyeurism and 16 misdemeanor charges of possessing drugs without prescriptions and possession of drug paraphernalia.

Judge Shayna Beevers Morvant gave Sauer the 25-year sentence, ordered him to register as a sex offender and banned him from contacting 12 of the victims.

Detectives identified many victims because Sauer took photographs of their driver’s licenses or other forms of identification, Connick said.

https://apnews.com/article/new-orle...entence-62246529ca28a6b27289f34089638a71

Stephen Sauer, former priest who ran agency for disabled, booked with sex crimes

Arc of Greater New Orleans executive accused of video voyeurism, sexual battery

The executive director of Arc of Greater New Orleans has been arrested on five counts of video voyeurism and one count of sexual battery, according to court records.

Stephen Sauer, 59, remains behind bars in the Jefferson Parish Correctional Center, pending a court hearing Thursday.

ArcGNO, with headquarters in Metairie, provides services to mentally disabled people in Jefferson, Orleans, Plaquemines, St. Bernard and St. Tammany parishes. Sauer’s LinkedIn profile says he has been at the helm of the nonprofit since January 2017.

Records also show Sauer was a Jesuit priest, listing him as pastor of Immaculate Conception Roman Catholic Church in New Orleans from 2008 to 2012. A spokesperson for the Society of Jesus said Sauer left the order “at his own request in 2020.”

Sauer, who lives in Metairie, posted on LinkedIn that he has served on a number of local boards, including as a trustee of Loyola University in New Orleans and Spring Hill College in Mobile, Ala. He also lists himself as cofounder and former chairman of Hotel Hope, a New Orleans nonprofit that provides shelter for homeless families.

By Tuesday evening, about 24 hours after his arrest, Sauer had been erased from ArcGNO's website.

"Mr. Sauer is no longer employed by Arc of Greater New Orleans, and chief administrative officer Sandee Williamson has been appointed to serve as acting executive director," the organization said. "Ms. Williamson and the ArcGNO team will focus on ensuring the organization’s work continues with minimal disruption. The stability of ArcGNO and safety of its clients are the organization’s top priorities. We have pledged our full cooperation to the authorities in this matter."

Details of the crimes Sauer is accused of committing have not been disclosed, particularly whether the allegations are linked to his work. Video voyeurism is punishable by a prison sentence of as long as two years, while sexual battery carries a maximum of 10 years.

Capt. Jason Rivarde, spokesperson for the Jefferson Parish Sheriff’s Office, said Sauer was arrested Monday at about 5 p.m. He said he couldn’t elaborate on the arrest, and that detectives are in the early stages of the investigation.

“It’s going to be a very extensive investigation, a minimum of several weeks,” Rivarde said. “We do believe there may be more victims.”

Sauer was being held without bail under a provision of a 2014 Louisiana law that allows authorities to keep suspects locked up for up to five days without bail as a cooling-off period.

That law typically applies in cases of domestic abuse, but a section does apply to people accused of committing sexual battery against someone who is not a domestic partner, Loyola law professor Dane Ciolino said. He is scheduled for a bond hearing Thursday.

Rivarde said anyone with additional information may call the Sheriff's Office personal violence section at (504) 364-5300.

https://www.nola.com/news/crime_pol...24f43d0-5dbb-11ec-9c4e-d71a36facdd1.html

But outside of these slight indiscretions he was a kind and decent man who had done a lot of good.

Old Bugs never has let me down either.

Sick, sick, sick, and sick




Did I say SICK

You've got a very broad stroke condemning all, when, in fact small percentage of evil doers were not held accountable-the Catholic leadership has admitted grave errors and paid millions/if not billions in restitution. Name another institution that's done more to right a grievous wrong. You've been picking up lots of stones and throwing- guess you're perfect. Peace.

You do realize that the reason they paid that money was due to lawsuits, right? It's not as if they voluntarily came out and admitted wrong and handed out money from the goodness of their hearts. They were FORCED to pay that money. This is something that has been going on for decades and leaders in the catholic church actively moved these priests around to try and cover up their wrong doing. I find the fact that you have somehow managed to convince yourself of some other scenario in your mind quite troubling......

The Catholic Church Has Paid Nearly $4 Billion Over Sexual Abuse Claims, Group says

A non-profit group that tracks allegations of abuse within the Catholic Church said Saturday that the church has paid out nearly $4 billion in lawsuits over allegations of clerical sexual abuse leading back to the 1980s.

BishopAccountability, whose mission is "documenting the abuse crisis in the Roman Catholic Church," according to their website, says that there are also payouts involving over 8,600 cases of assault survivors abused by a member of the clergy dating back to the 1950s.

The largest known payout amounted to over $600 million dollars in 2007, CNN reported on Saturday, issued on behalf of 221 priests and other church employees accused of abusing and victimizing over 500 people.

BishopAccountability maintains a list of every known settlement paid by the Catholic Church to those who have alleged sexual abuse at the hands of clergy and Church affiliates. "We document settlements involving 5,679 persons who allege sexual abuse by Catholic clergy," their website states. "These survivors are only one-third of the 15,235 allegations that the bishops say they have received through 2009, and they are only 5% of the 100,000 U.S. victims."

A grand jury released a document on August 14 that stated more than 300 priests sexually abused children in the state of Pennsylvania. Those accusations are among many global sexual abuse scandals that have come to light within the Catholic Church and its systemic failures to protect children. The Pennsylvania report detailed more than 300 priests that have been accused, credibly, of abusing over 1,000 children over the course of 70 years.

Pope Francis visited Dublin, Ireland on Saturday and is scheduled to meet with individual victims who experienced sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. He says that he shared the outrage many feel about these "repugnant crimes."

"The failure of ecclesial authorities — bishops, religious superiors, priests and others — to adequately address these repugnant crimes has rightly given rise to outrage, and remains a source of pain and shame for the Catholic community," he said in a speech to government officials at Dublin Castle. "I myself share these sentiments."

https://www.newsweek.com/over-3-billion-paid-lawsuits-catholic-church-over-sex-abuse-claims-1090753

You seem to act as though these actions were some kind of noble and virtuous gestures when in fact all of these lawsuits that these priests from all over the globe were found guilty of left the Catholic Church no choice but to beg for mercy and throw themselves on the mercy of the public after they could no longer hide and cover up their misdeeds. But whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Your title says it all- virtues of organized religion- yet your WHOLE perspective is about how religion has hurt folks- and SPECIFICALLY Catholic Church- I could paste article after article supporting virtues of Catholics and other religions- yet your emphasis is only VICES of religion. I didn't hide from your facts, I state serious/awful misdeeds done by priests and the superiors for decades- you didn't mention the percentages of abusers, funny you lump all into dung heap. That isn't the case. I'll pray for you and I sleep well.

I think you may be confused by the virtues of Catholics and their church’s vs the virtues of their priests. Which there are, or have been, a bunch of sickos at the pulpit who have never been prosecuted.

While you wish to whitewash all of the evil and cover ups they have committed. I mean this for example.....


You made this sound like some virtuous act when the fact is they only did these things AFTER they were successfully sued and FORCED to do these things. If you wish to talk about someone wanting to put some spin on it, your words quoted above tell the story on that one.

j/c:

"The gods that we've made are exactly the gods you'd expect to be made by a species that's about half a chromosome away from being chimpanzee."- Christopher Hitchens

I think you have issues with organized religion, for their acknowledged flaws- yet you'd expect perfect justice. How many non-religious rapists, murderers, swindlers, thieves, etc., etc. walk our streets every day. I stand by my statements- for all the MANY minuses- there are far more percentage wise good, religious priests and ministers than there are monsters. Go visit a Catholic high school, middle school, or elementary school- see good vs evil.

PS this board is a product of Greater Cleveland area....PERFECT examples of what I state above exist in Cleveland- please review online these schools- Saint Ignatius, Our Lady of the Elms, Gilmour Academy- there are hundreds thru out the US- and MILLIONS of graduates who haven't been abused or neglected in any way. Evil exists everywhere, but lots more good than evil in most religious environments. Peace.