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Originally Posted by Rishuz
If Stefanski cared as much about winning as he did about calling plays, he'd make a change.
Is winning a priority to the Browns?
Are they trying to get a Lombardi trophe this year?


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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I never want to hear again, at any point, when the broadcasters spew that old line after a while,
they'll say,
" if you knew at the beginning of the year you could have been 4 and 2 or 3 and 3 at this point you would have taken it? "

no,
winning is not a priority every year,

so nothing less than winning every single game, every single time is acceptable.

they don't care enough about winning.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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I've argued for years the Browns don't prioritize winning and everyone is offended because... how could a team not want to win. I mean everyone wants to win, right? What a ridiculous statement everyone says.

But no one really understands what I'm saying,.and I don't have the patience or care to go back and forth on it.

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A common refrain from Stefanski...


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Can anyone see Stefanski out coaching Shanahan?

We are staring directly down the barrel of 2-3.

So frustrating knowing you go into every game at a deficit at HC.

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no, we will be severely outreached by Shanahan.

The only coach Stefanski can beat is Taylor


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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I think all the people complaining about "Stefanski's" play calling underestimate how much input the QB has. Unfortunately, getting in the right play is only half the battle. Execution wasn't there at all. Only way to get that post snap processor up to speed is to play against live snaps. These were DTR's first. It started bad and he got caught in the quicksand. The game was awful, but bad decision making can make any play call look bad. It felt like DTR threw into coverage when he should have ran, ran when he should have thrown it away, and just generally made the wrong decision most of the time. Its almost like he tried to speed himself up too much and was pressing.

I did hate the Moore run call, and then Moore managed to make the call even worse than it had to be.

On defense, Lamar made plays. He'll do that sometimes. It's about inevitable if you keep giving him chances. He had the lead early and then didn't have to press.

OL had some good moments, but consistency still isn't there. Pocic going down likely didn't help. DTR took too many hits.


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
I think all the people complaining about "Stefanski's" play calling underestimate how much input the QB has. Unfortunately, getting in the right play is only half the battle. Execution wasn't there at all. Only way to get that post snap processor up to speed is to play against live snaps. These were DTR's first. It started bad and he got caught in the quicksand. The game was awful, but bad decision making can make any play call look bad. It felt like DTR threw into coverage when he should have ran, ran when he should have thrown it away, and just generally made the wrong decision most of the time. Its almost like he tried to speed himself up too much and was pressing.

I did hate the Moore run call, and then Moore managed to make the call even worse than it had to be.

On defense, Lamar made plays. He'll do that sometimes. It's about inevitable if you keep giving him chances. He had the lead early and then didn't have to press.

OL had some good moments, but consistency still isn't there. Pocic going down likely didn't help. DTR took too many hits.

in the words of Col. Potter.....Horse Hockey.. stefanski controls if the game plan is going to run or pass, he calls all the plays, DTR I promise had no permission to audible. So calling that many passing plays with rookie QB is 100% on him


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We have an OC. What does he do? Like seriously. Is he responsible for the game plan? Or what? People blame Ski for everything and I understand the buck stops with him. But theres another chef in the kitchen who no one mentions.


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so in essence, stefanski's bad playcalling was made worse by DTR showing he's not an NFL qb yet


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Originally Posted by EveDawg
We have an OC. What does he do? Like seriously. Is he responsible for the game plan? Or what? People blame Ski for everything and I understand the buck stops with him. But theres another chef in the kitchen who no one mentions.
Alex Van Pelt is OC in name only. He's been allowed to call one game, the playoff game against pittsburgh, which we won.


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Originally Posted by leadtheway
Originally Posted by EveDawg
We have an OC. What does he do? Like seriously. Is he responsible for the game plan? Or what? People blame Ski for everything and I understand the buck stops with him. But theres another chef in the kitchen who no one mentions.
Alex Van Pelt is OC in name only. He's been allowed to call one game, the playoff game against pittsburgh, which we won.

There is more to an offense than calling plays.


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I voiced my opinion on an earlier post and now I'll voice it again on the next game. If DW can't play in 2 weeks expect another difficult and tough loss. Even if he can play, I don't expect to beat the 49"ers. We've already had serious injuries to 2 key players, we don't know how serious DW's injury is and we have to find out about Myles. We'll have 2 weeks to prepare for the 49er's, probably come out flat like we have in the past after a bye and everyone will be screaming again. Just expect it and it might be a little easier to swallow. If DW is out for an extended period I would get on the phone and try to get Carson Wentz. At least he's had some success and has experience. DTR can't handle it right now. I'm starting to see the season go down the drain with all the injuries.

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They had over 6 months since they last played Baltimore, they had a draft, and went to the greenbrier, they had some injuries, and they had 2 backup @uarterbacks, one they traded away to Arizona,
they had an injury to Chubb, they signed Hunt, they brought in 3 rb's including some unknown from Indy who was cut a week later,
they had an injury to Conklin, they had a new Right Tackle,
all since they last played Baltimore, they even had a historic 3 game defensive output,
but
in all of that, at no point could they figure out that against Baltimore, a rookie @uarterback should NOT have to drop back 30 to 40 times, when your Defense could own them if it were close and you had any kind of momentum.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Rish I agree with your assessments of todays game. We held them to less than 300 yards total O. If someone told us before the game that would happen we all would have taken it. It was the lousy O and playcalling that cost us this game nothing else. The D got discouraged because of it and gassed also. That's probably what led to the sloppy tackling.

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Too many pre-snap penalties.

A rookie QB, with no big threat in the run game to take some heat off him. Moore and DTR with boneheaded plays on the same drive it’s a minor miracle we got 3 out of that drive. And I agree with whomever said it, stop screwing around with Eli out of the backfield. We’re telegraphing that weak stuff.

We aren’t getting much push from the ol, we seem to be on our heels a lot.

Our D started off well but the 95-yard TD drive was the kill shot. Garrett was our best player today.


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Injuries should not derail our season. Baltimore has way more injuries and it hasn't derailed theirs. Our entire defense has been healthy the first quarter of the season and we sit at 2-2.

We have a Stefanski problem. Guy is not a winner.

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Just back in the Ville coming from the game. My thoughts are that, without watson we had very little chance. We had good seats, and I can tell you it wasn't the line. DTR was holding the ball forever. He always seemed to be looking deep downfield. I didn't realize how small the dude is, but it was a factor. Those saying he has a big arm are foolish. He had nice zip on the short balls, but his arm is weak. Many of his long balls looked like punts, just hanging in the air, he is lucky they didn't have a couple more picks. No accuracy on the long ball. Guys were getting space off the line, but he was just holding the ball forever looking downfield. Ravens defense knew he woudn't be a threat long, and went after him.

As for the defense, some of the worst tackling I have seen. Looked like last year. The first quarter they were good, then the Ravens figured them out and the edges were left open. The same hole opened over who ever was playing LDT. They were riding him inside and the DE was crashing hard and it left a big hole everytime.

I don't know what went on with Watson, I heard it was his decision not to play. But they better have a better plan if Watson misses time. DTR is not ready for this, and honestly after seeing him live, I don't think he ever will be.


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I don't disagree but without DW playing well we won't win not with who we have as QB's. The Jets are a perfect example. AR's injury has derailed them.

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I want to add, that the hype about Moore was no worth it. Using him in the backfield is not going to work. I want to see Tillman on the field more.


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Originally Posted by Milk Man
A common refrain from Stefanski...


Let me guess what his next sentence was. "I take full responsibility for this" "I'll have to look at the tape"


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thanks for the synopsis .. I agree we need to scrap the Moore experiment and use him as strictly a slot


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by leadtheway
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
I think all the people complaining about "Stefanski's" play calling underestimate how much input the QB has. Unfortunately, getting in the right play is only half the battle. Execution wasn't there at all. Only way to get that post snap processor up to speed is to play against live snaps. These were DTR's first. It started bad and he got caught in the quicksand. The game was awful, but bad decision making can make any play call look bad. It felt like DTR threw into coverage when he should have ran, ran when he should have thrown it away, and just generally made the wrong decision most of the time. Its almost like he tried to speed himself up too much and was pressing.

I did hate the Moore run call, and then Moore managed to make the call even worse than it had to be.

On defense, Lamar made plays. He'll do that sometimes. It's about inevitable if you keep giving him chances. He had the lead early and then didn't have to press.

OL had some good moments, but consistency still isn't there. Pocic going down likely didn't help. DTR took too many hits.

in the words of Col. Potter.....Horse Hockey.. stefanski controls if the game plan is going to run or pass, he calls all the plays, DTR I promise had no permission to audible. So calling that many passing plays with rookie QB is 100% on him

What if instead of passing plays they were rather packaged plays?

Here's an article on them, and guess what, it focuses on their use by Chip Kelly, who just happened to be DTR's college coach.
Link

The article also mentions the Vikings using packaged plays and guess where Stefanski was when the article was written?

Unfortunately, it appeared to me that Baltimore took away the run reads with their initial alignments, but played the pass post snap. Then they focused on taking away all the short to intermediate passes. Particularly they crowded the flats (which makes screens a bad read) and then had Roquan Smith reading DTR in the middle of the field.

I could be wrong and its hard to tell from broadcast angles, but the rush to judgment seems a bit quick.

Last edited by Bull_Dawg; 10/01/23 07:19 PM. Reason: note: this is probably not the best link to show how we now have our packaged plays designed, but the Chip Kelly and Minnesota references couldn't be passed up.

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My thoughts? Andre Rison, Jeff Garcia, RG3, etc….all the other half-witted trades and signings we’ve done of “Big Name” veterans…Watson is another monumental flop. I’ve been a Browns fan since the rabbit ears and tin foil on our black and white tv picked up the games on WLIO television out of Lima. I was 6 years old and I was hooked. 60 years later…I think this is the last straw. I’m sick and tired of “This is the year!” And “Wait ‘til next year!” 50 years from now the Browns will be the only NFL team to never appear in a Super Bowl. Have fun.


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We have a Haslam problem


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Originally Posted by EveDawg
Originally Posted by leadtheway
Originally Posted by EveDawg
We have an OC. What does he do? Like seriously. Is he responsible for the game plan? Or what? People blame Ski for everything and I understand the buck stops with him. But theres another chef in the kitchen who no one mentions.
Alex Van Pelt is OC in name only. He's been allowed to call one game, the playoff game against pittsburgh, which we won.

There is more to an offense than calling plays.
lol no there’s not on game day and that’s obtuse to think AVP is allowed to make any calls during the game or even has a say in the offense. He’s there to work with the QBs and to hold the title


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Sometimes it feels like Stefanski is too smart for his own good. DTR needed routes where the WRs stopped moving and gave him a target to throw to. Instead anything that required to throw on the run or especially anything deep he missed on. Call it nerves, lack of reps or even lack of talent/development but it looked like he was still trying to run Watson’s offensive game plan.

We waited too long to try and establish the run. We were in catch up mode most of the game and they knew DTR couldn’t throw on them at that point. He’s got a long way to go. If Watson is gone for any extended period of time we’re the New York Jets 2.0.

We traded this game for a 5th round pick. Dobbs would’ve at least been competent.

If you told us at the start of the season that by week 4 we’d be without Chubb, our starting RT and Watson we’d probably all agree this game is a loss.

The injuries on the line concern me. Jones is actually a pretty big upgrade over Hubbard. Harris is almost at a level Pocic plays but he’s is also the extra offensive lineman they normally bring in which will alter those packages.

Injuries on the D-line with Myles and Zadarious need to be monitored as well. Both those guys are pivotal to our defense.

I was upset we had a bye this early in the year but to be honest it came at a time when we desperately need it. Get players healthy and gameplay how this offense will operate going forward.

I’m beginning to think Elijah Moore is a selfish player in the sense he’s more worried about himself trying to make a play versus doing what is smart for the team. That run was clearly an example. As an NFL player unless you’re taking a desperation sack or trying to recover a fumble you should never have a 20 yard loss. He could’ve cut his losses at about 7/8 yards but instead he moved back another 10+ yards trying to make something happen. It’s said he drifts off his routes if he thinks he can get more space but that’s not what the QB needs. He has the most targets on the team but only catches about 60% of the balls thrown his way.

I think the defense could see the writing on the wall after the first turnover and touchdown. Not to say they didn’t fight but I think after repeatedly seeing the offense be able to accomplish nothing it just wore on them it was a losing battle.


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Here’s a question, swap head coaches this game. What do you think would have happened. I promise harbaugh would have got more than 3 points out of the offense. And that’s the problem


Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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I also think at this point we need to put some feelers out for Adams or jeudy. End this Moore and dnp experiment. For some reason Berry is the worst at evaluating wr talent


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Originally Posted by Rishuz
I've argued for years the Browns don't prioritize winning and everyone is offended because... how could a team not want to win. I mean everyone wants to win, right? What a ridiculous statement everyone says.

But no one really understands what I'm saying,.and I don't have the patience or care to go back and forth on it.

I think I get what you are saying. Like you write, everyone wants to win. But do you have the commitment to do ALL that is necessary to do so?

It is easier to trade a lot for a "proven" QB than make your existing one better, or draft and develop one (and know this isn't saying I prefer Baker to DW).

If my play calling is suspect, am I humble enough to let someone else try?

Am I capable of putting the players in the best position to use their strengths for best results.

Can I put aside my personal goals/ambitions to do what is best for the team. This goes for players, coaches, admin across the board.

I just realized how horribly I am describing the point, but I do feel like I get what you mean.

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Originally Posted by leadtheway
Here’s a question, swap head coaches this game. What do you think would have happened. I promise harbaugh would have got more than 3 points out of the offense. And that’s the problem

I don't know. It's easier to scheme against a limited rookie QB than it is to scheme with one. Take away the run and quick passes isn't that complex of a defensive plan. See if he can beat you deep. He couldn't. Double down.

It wasn't the Ravens scheme that got them points, it was out of structure plays by Lamar for the most part.

Harbaugh may have been able to get more points. Emotional, unsubstantiated promises don't mean much, though.

Last edited by Bull_Dawg; 10/01/23 07:33 PM. Reason: addendum: Harbaugh doesn't actually call offensive or defensive plays, are we swapping coordinators, too?

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Doesn’t make them untrue. Just unproven. Much like you thinking DTR has the tools to be competent and just needs time


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Oh Boy! Here comes all the excuses for Stefanski. 1) He had a rookie inexperienced QB (anyone say Purdy). Remember, talk on this forum has always been what a great QB coach Stefanski is - or is he? 2) Van Pelt is the OC - that's where the blame goes. LOL, surely you haven't been watching the Browns the last 3 plus years. Van Pelt is OC in name only and has never been more than that. 3) DTR is bad and made many mistakes. Who selected DTR as Watson's backup? If he wasn't ready, then why play him and call 36 pass attempts?

I wonder how many games the Browns have to lose this year before people finally come to the conclusion that this Stefanski experiment (much like the Wills experiment) needs to end abruptly?


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j/c...




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Fords first five runs netted 7 yards (-2, 7, -2, 4, 0.) Hunt's first run went for -2. (yeah, I missed a series. Hunt had some positive runs before this. Missed the FG drive)

Those numbers would seem to indicate that the Ravens were playing to stop the run early.

Last edited by Bull_Dawg; 10/01/23 08:21 PM. Reason: missed a run going through the play by play that I noticed on tape. Edit2: I really suck at going through the play by play. Need to stick to film.

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Originally Posted by Milk Man
j/c...




Those numbers are interesting. I need to watch the tape. I wonder how the success rate out of empty compared to other formations today.


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Fords first four runs netted 0 yards (-2,-2,4, 0.) Hunt's first run went for -2.

Those numbers would seem to indicate that the Ravens were playing to stop the run early.

We should have given up on the run and put it all on the arm of an unproven Rookie...oh wait..


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Originally Posted by DaveyD
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Fords first four runs netted 0 yards (-2,-2,4, 0.) Hunt's first run went for -2.

Those numbers would seem to indicate that the Ravens were playing to stop the run early.

We should have given up on the run and put it all on the arm of an unproven Rookie...oh wait..


Yeah, I dunno. DTR's deep balls were all ugly and short.

I think this may have been as much about trying to figure out what DTR could do as the run game not working. Hopefully, this isn't an indication that Watson could be down for awhile.


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Very happy I couldn't watch the game today... I taped it but will not watch it... hoping Watson gets healthy..


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Posts: 30,339
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Originally Posted by jaybird
Very happy I couldn't watch the game today... I taped it but will not watch it... hoping Watson gets healthy..
I watched it, after losing 4 pounds doing 2 softball games. Wife recorded it. I got home, she left to go to a movie. Showered, then watched.

When my wife got home she asked if I had watched it. Yes, the whole thing. She said "I wanted to tell you to not watch it, but I didn't want to ruin it for you."

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DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2023 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 3 Ravens 28 Postgame thoughts

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