DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Ukraine and Russia

Let's put aside which one of those strategies would be the best approach for a minute. Big picture where I think the largest difference in opinion lies is in the time frame such a thing could be accomplished. In the grander scheme of things, over the long term I think you have a great point. To some extent I think we both do. But that is a long range plan. It may certainly help prevent future wars and are both avenues I would gladly endorse.

But as things stand today I don't think the time line to accomplish such a thing would happen with the expediency required to impact the war in Ukraine.

We agree. I actually look at supplying Ukraine from a professional perspective, which has admittedly bled into a personal perspective as well, given everything I've seen.

I don't think it's enough either, and the holdout from some countries, including Hungary and now Slovakia is hindering the progress, as is the very far right on our side, and drawing the war out. I think from a political perspective, I do really wonder what we're not seeing that's affecting that behavior. They operate under the guise of fiscal conservativism, but the gushing that you see about Putin that comes from the lot of them (Trump, Carlson, some of the MAGA caucus) combined with the disparaging remarks they make about Ukraine's leader really makes me wonder what in the hell is going on that we're not seeing.

If there were a practical, timely way to take Putin out, I'd be all for it. I just pragmatically speaking don't know how to accomplish that in a timely manner.

You brought up a lot of questions people should be seriously asking themselves.

I don't know how to accomplish it either. It just feels like its something that we better start investing in looking at rather seriously. If things only continue as they are going, the long-term prognosis and likely ultimate result of the conflict are not looking good. The longer it drags on, the more the numbers are likely to tell. Plus, the longer things go on the worse the psychological scars and damage are going to be, during and also after. Those are already likely going to linger long after the fighting is over. Having a (deserving) scapegoat and seeing Putin go down, might have an ameliorative effect.

An alternative is adding NATO troops on the ground, but I don't think that anyone has the stomach for that and its hard to tell if someone might come in on the other side. The internal dissent route seems the "safest" option for avoiding World War III. I don't think even Putin is crazy enough to nuke his own country. Figuring out how to help that internal uprising come about is a tough nut to crack.

It’s really disturbing. Most of my immediate family are borderline MAGA. When the war started, they were vehemently with Ukraine. Some even wanted to send in troops. Now they are vehemently opposed after seeing Tucker and listening to the gaslighting and misinformation. Luckily I’ve been able to push back on that with facts surrounding various weapon systems and transactional agreements but it’s been an uphill battle.

I mean Russian state media played coverage of Tucker Carlson.

Let me say that again. Russian state media played coverage of Tucker Carlson.

The purpose of an authoritarian state is to control the narrative through the media and only allow one voice. Opposition is jailed aka Navalny.

They know they have crap, but at least they are not in jail. Good luck with that covert training and tactical support.

. IMO that makes Tucker and a large percentage of Goper America that believe his crap, all communists.

And then people wonder why some of us think that hard liner trumpian politicians actually support Russia. And their followers can't or won't even pretend to consider it despite the evidence that's in front of them.

Ummmm, Russia isn't even a communist country any more, if it ever was. Economically speaking, it's a weird mutant freak hybrid of a nonmonetized command economy and a monetized market economy. As far as government, it is technically a "multi-party representative democracy."

I agree with Tucker and his message being crap, but not sure what anything has to do with communism. The Cold War was a fair bit of time ago, and even then the whole making communism a bad word seems rather overzealous in retrospect. Like most things, it's not the systems themselves that are bad, it's what people are doing with them.

edit: I get that there is still a "communist" party. But the country doesn't really operate as actual communism. Most sitting politicians in Russia are actually from the United Russia party.

edit2: The United Russia party's ideology is largely Statism, Russian Conservatism, and Russian Nationalism. I can see how some of that would appeal to White Nationalists here. --ICK! It's probably more that than anything to do with "Communism."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/rep-lauren-boebert-signaling-fight-210836906.html

Looks like the mower starter is saying the next speaker MUST not support aid for Ukraine. Again…why????

Many are in jail, and those that aren't still don't want their young men sent off to fight a war they don't want to fight. If the choice is fight in Ukraine for something you don't believe in or fight in Moscow for something you do, I know which one I would choose if it was remotely an option. We need to figure out how to make it an option.

Step One: devise a way for Russia's citizens to get information from the rest of the world, instead of only hearing state-sponsored messaging. If the Russian people actually knew what the rest of us see, there might be no need for a Step Two; they'd rise up and end Putin's reign for themselves.

A couple years back, I predicted two potential ends for Vlad: political assassination, or populist uprising. I made that prediction based on history: those are basically the only ways any society has ridded themselves of despots. I would prefer door #2, because when these things happen, the new broom sweeps clean. Along with Putin, his cronies get removed, as well. In the case of door #1, the crony who takes him out has been ensconced in a system that placed him in proximity to the seat of power- no way would that person mess with the system that got him there. For the world, it would be 'more of the same' from Russia... just with someone not named Vladimir Putin.

It's got to happen of the people, by the people, and for the people.


.02

Time to go back to having cargo planes dropping pamphlets?

I don't know. I think the difference in armaments between civilians and governments makes widespread populist uprisings unlikely. I think you kind of need to split the difference and have a "populist assassination," then hope the cronies wipe each other out vying for power in the vacuum (as they haven't consolidated power as typically accompanies an inside assassination.)

Maybe just send modified T-Shirt guns to the fronts loaded with information intended to inspire Russian units to rise up on their commanders and head back to Moscow. Perhaps focusing on enlisted soldiers as the "populist uprising" could level the armament playing field. Hmmmmm. Just spit balling. Maybe something along those lines could be refined better.

Anybody who thinks the Russian people can be won over are living in an alternative universe.

Maybe. After seeing the "insanity, stupidity, and intolerance" shown by many Americans here, expecting there might be rational people there isn't a given. Yet, I have seen footage of protests in Russia.

We don't have to win them over to us. We just have to give the right ones the tools they need to effect the change they already want.

I haven't actually seem evidence the majority of Russians want the change you propose they do. As we have seen here in our own country people get programmed by the things they are spoon fed. And I'm not speaking about either side but both of them. The only thing they have seen or been taught is what Putin and and his state run media has been telling them for decades. Why would anyone believe they want such a change when all they have been taught is that Putin is great and anything from the outside that would teach them any differently has been blocked?

You haven't been seeing evidence because as you say the government controls the media. Back in early 2022 there were a fair number anti-war protests publicized. They were shown in places like on ABC News. Unfortunately, the government arrested a lot of those protestors (over 20k, I've seen reported) and close to 1,000,000 people have emigrated out of Russia since the war started. Those against the war have had to become more discreet for fear of arrest and/or other reprisals. It's not safe for foreign journalists anymore, either.

Another way of looking at it: have you ever heard of a repressive regime that didn't have people that were subjected to the oppression that were against that government?

Have you spent much time out of the country? Do you know much Russian history? Russia has had quite a few uprisings.

One can draw conclusions either way. Estimates are that over 143 million people live in Russia. So while I appreciate the side of this you're trying to propose, I don't think it means what you think it means.

But what are you basing your thinking on?

143 million is another one of those numbers that doesn't mean a whole lot on its own.

I'm basing my thinking on personal experience in foreign countries and countless historical examples, along with information culled from modern media sources.

People don't automatically believe the propaganda they are inundated with. Some do. Not all of them. When they're seeing people arrested and their families are dying, the number tends to go down.

When you're trying to use the number 1 million to make a point, showing the total population is 143 times that many people it is most certainly relevant whether you wish to admit that or not. There is no way for you to know what "the majority of Russians think" other than thinking those who you have drawn your information from don't have a stake in the game or they have some first hand knowledge of internal Russian polls of their people that share such information. And I haven't seen any indication those even exist.

I drew my conclusion based on the 1 million people you quoted. There are 143 times that many people in Russia and I for one do not believe you have any idea how the majority of those other over 143 million are thinking based on what you've heard and media sources.

Obviously a cowardly outlook considering the actions of the people of Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan.

...what are you trying to say here?

JC
It is foolish to support taking Putin out. Maybe it's ok to think about it, but there really isn't a way to do that. A Seal team isn't going to be able to take the guy out.

I myself am getting weary of Ukraine. We have depleted much of our reserve ammo, and when this is all over I suppose we will be on the hook to repair the country.

I am not saying we should abandon Ukraine, but if it comes down to dropping our support or getting in to WWIII, that's an easy choice for me. This is looking like WWI trench warfare. Lot's of fighting with very little movement and not a lot of hope anything is going to change anytime soon.

We have not depeted any of our reserve ammo. None. Honestly, my mind is blown as to where this comes from. Honest to goodness there’s so much more I could say that I don’t on this topic and I shouldn’t but I have no idea where in the hell notions like this come from. We have so much stuff it’s insane how much stuff we have. Most of the stuff we have was invented to take places like Russia out and now that it’s ACTUALLY DOING THAT people are like “We should be prudent and save up.” Holy moly…

And we STILL have a ton of it.

Seriously, I know where I’m getting my information from. Where are you guys getting your information from? Makes my head spin…

From the same sources who believe Putin when he says he’s trying to ‘de-nazify’ Ukraine, and that NATO are the, lol, real aggressors.

The President said so...the reserves are critically low.




Not sure why I can't post vids anymore. It is easily referenced.

There is no way we can allow Russia to take any of Ukraine. No way. Putin must be stopped. By any means available.

Taking him out isn't something we should do. But stop him cold, yeah, that's what we need to help Ukraine do.

Do we need to replenish out weapons reserves, yeah we do. But to think we can only do one thing as a time is silly.

Putin is a Hitler wanna be. I can't for life of me see where it's a good thing to support him.

Remember, most of the country didn’t want to get involved in WW2, and I suspect that has something to do with the % of people who have no problem with dictators, or even empathize with their beliefs.

Thanks for posting. Let me take that apart. That guy put quite the spin on everything and he’s horrifically wrong.

One, I think Biden was misspeaking and blundered up as he is prone to do. He kept reiterating that Ukraine was low and then slipped to the point of saying that we are low. I think that he meant “we” as Ukraine in that clip. You can’t rip on him for talking about a railroad across the Pacific and then take seriously a claim that we are low on cluster munitions in the same vein.

Secondly, he is talking specifically on the topic of cluster munitions but this guy extrapolates it out to “artillery” which I believe was intentionally misleading. In either event, we are not low on either.

Third, he somehow spins this into Russia is winning. Let me just ask you, if the original plan was to takeover Kyiv in three days and it turns into losing ground in four small territories, half of which were already pro-Russian, while also having to clean house on your top brass from a near coup, who would you say is winning? That’s a rather dumbed down version, but also factual. The other thing is that Kyiv could be doing so much more if they had more. Again, this guy is spinning that into “they’re losing because they’re running out so Russia is winning” when that’s not the truth. Kyiv needs more to completely kick Russia out, but keep in mind they achieved full culmination of Russia’s initial offensive on their own.

I’d be very curious to see who is paying the guy in that commentary. I will just say it’s so factually false the premises and misinformation getting thrown around. Again, I want to know what’s behind the scenes of guys like this and Carlson. Something really ain’t right.

There were actually not small numbers of Nazi sympathizers over here in the 1930’s. Swastikas and all. Charles Lindbergh even criticized the Jews for dragging us into “an unnecessary war.”

Really makes me start to draw parallels.

Can you expand on why you think we shouldn't take Putin out? The two bolded sections seem contradictory.

If anyone on here would know about this it would be you. To actually believe that America is running low on weapons, people would also have to believe that we as a nation never had enough of a stockpile of weapons and aren't manufacturing enough weapons to take on a nation like Russia in an emergency. If there's one thing America is good at, it's building a war machine. We spent trillions in the middle east over 20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now suddenly they believe that 120 billion in weapons has destroyed our supplies?

Tangent: this is the kind of stuff that I have absolutely no answer for.

Russia usually kill off their leaders who fail miserably. Putin needs to fail miserably.

On the other hand, we do seem to "give" the stuff away to any and everyone at every opportunity. Hard to stockpile while consistently depleting said stockpile. Not impossible, but I don't think the question is that outlandish. Especially when the country's President doesn't seem to know. Most people aren't in the military logistics chain. How many Billions of dollars worth of stuff have we already sent? Is 120B accurate? I feel like I've seen much higher numbers. Whatever the number is, It's a big enough number that most people have no idea what that actually looks like. The average civilian doesn't have access to an inventory. They just get a bunch of unfathomable numbers that people rarely take the time to explain to them.

You'd be amazed at the amount of stuff the "government"/military throws away. Storage of items has an associated cost. Just because we spent trillions a couple decades ago doesn't mean that everything it was spent on still exists/is available. A lot of it gets sold as surplus to the highest bidder. Throw in military "downsizing" and the idea that that might cause more to be surplus wouldn't be entirely illogical.

Are we paying for the aid and paying to replace it in the "stockpile" it came from?

It has not been that straightforward. And it has been very poorly explained.

Just saying.

I'm just worried that if he does fail miserably, his method of suicide might be nuclear.

Come on man, you aren't an idiot. Don't say goofy stuff like that. With respect, I think you need a azimuth check.

I think the people can. They embrace Western culture. The hard line leftists don't allow the people to say a whole lot.

The "hard line leftists" haven't been in power for awhile. They're all about Russian imperialism and ethnocentrism (by any means necessary--they're fine with capitalism if it benefits them) now.

Bet your father and grandfather would have stood up to the fascists and communists even IF it meant fighting WW3. I’m at the point I don’t give a damn, they ALL need to be put in check.