DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns can't draft or develop WRs.

It seems like the only time the Browns get real production
From a WR is if he acquired in a trade (Cooper Beckham)
Or a free agent ( Landry)
But other the Bears is another team as abysmal at drafting
And developing WRs as the Browns ?
Andrew Berry for all his credit manipulating the cap
His track record of drafting WRs is the worst among GMs.
He hasn't drafted a single 1,000 yd WR or even a WR that
Has scored more than 4 TDs in a single season.
Schwartz out of the league. DPJ is a number 4 on a good offense
David Bell can't separate. He makes Greg Little look like
Sterling Sharpe.
And it's also look at the WRs Berry passed on...George Pickens
How good would Pickens look now in this offense?
Wasn't Nico Collins of the Texans drafted by the Browns ?
I could be wrong ?
This a league driven by WRs and QBs.
They go hand in hand

The Steelers are generally awesome at developing WRs .. and most teams with good QBs can turn average WRs into productive ones

We have had a really poor track record with QBs and WRs lol

...Did you see the Ravens' receivers against Pittsburgh?

New England's against New Orleans?

Anyone from the Titans other than Hopkins?

Did you see the Chiefs week one?

Teams miss on players. Drafting is not an exact science. Gambling on upside can come up nuts. Injuries happen. Money changes people. Sometimes things just don't work out.

Edit: As for Bell not being able to separate, last year he had "an average target separation of 2.5 yards and an average cushion of 4.75 yards (for context, Amari Cooper — who's touted as an elite route runner — had a 1.72-yard target separation and a 4.51-yard average cushion)" link

Bell's separation ability has been good by all metrics. His YAC probably isn't

Sometimes things just don't work out?
Then explain since 1999 the Browns track record for drafting WRs?

Hard for WRs to look good when you have either a bad QB or poor pass protection or some years both. We've definitely felt like a wrong place, wrong time team since '99.

You can probably put any position here. Whats the last playmaker we've drafted under Berry? He gets left out of the conversation alot. Sure you can sign FA's that other teams drafted and hit on and win right now, but drafting is how you build sustained winning. But we've not drafted well under Berry period and our depth shows it

I don't think that "We don't suck any worse than those guys" is a valid excuse.

Dude was hired in 2020, and you want to make a long-term decision on him.

I believe he drafted Newsome, JOK, Emerson.

Its a lot easier to draft playmakers when you have 1st round picks. It's not hard to "find" a Myles Garrett when you pick 1-1. Myles kind of stands out. Berry will likely ultimately get judged based on how Watson turns out here. Or just wins and losses.

I kinda agree with the thread title. DPJ has done some good things, but Schwartz was a big disappointment.

we've spent a LOT of draft capital, money, public ridicule, etc to be a .500 team. It's just depressing

Unfortunately, there is no teacher like experience. A better question might be is Berry figuring it out? Has Schwartz -> Bell -> Tillman been a positive progression?

Have we had a staff and/or system in place long enough to do much developing?

Bell hasn't show nothing in 2 years. He is slow as molasses
And he can't outrun coverage. 4 games in he has a whopping 1
Catch. He was a volume catcher at Purdue. He was beating
Average CBers downfield.

While you do have a point to an extent, Berry was hired as VP of player personnel in early 2016. Player personnel is integral to diagnosing talent. So while as his role as GM you are correct. It's not as if he wasn't in a capacity to be training for the job well in advance.

I agree, he is good with DBs, and maybe Backers. After that, maybe not so much.

As for 4 years, my HS GPA was established in 4 years. My undergraduate degree was established in 4 years. I don't know why a NFL GM would need more to establish some record.

I don't think he should be replaced. I just don't think it unfair for people to question the record.

maybe we should just keep drafting DBs and then trading them after 3 years for WRs lol

That makes more sense than I would like to admit.

I looked it up this time.

Delpit
DPJ (thought he was the year before)
Nick Harris (not sure how we're feeling about this guy anymore)
Jerome Ford
Alex Wright

And then the guys I pointed out in my previous post.

I gotta say, he's definitely had his biggest hits (by far) on the defensive side of the ball. His offensive draftees have been VERY meh outside of getting DPJ in the 6th. The only guys (other than DPJ) worth mentioning are ones you still have to include the asterisk of where in that draft we got him.

I'm not one that would give AB the benefit of the doubt in terms of not having high draft picks these past few years. You make a trade like that for the volume and quality of picks because you believe that player is going to cover for a few deficiencies. Watson is one of the VERY few FA moves that are coming back to bite him.

To take a deeper dive (I think but not sure), not only have we not done it recently, and not only has poor QB play made WRs look worse than they are, but what receivers have we picked high since the return have worked out?

Braylon had moments for a year or two, Kevin Johnson was a possession receiver.... anybody think of anyone else?

haha .. shrug

As mentioned earlier in this thread you’re what your record says and our WR’s stats as a whole have a downward trend since Berry’s first season as a GM. That’s concerning.

Amari Cooper had his best season ever last year (by AV.) Acquiring him "on the cheap" was a great move. I don't remember people complaining about the Moore trade when it happened. He used draft capital to do it. I don't think having laser focus on the draft with regards to WRs is entirely fair when one can only pick from the players available when picking. A lot more goes into being a GM than the draft.

JOK-undersized and gets eaten up by blockers way too often. Flashes now and then, he's good, not great and def. not a game changer. A 66 PFF supports that. But he's not a miss, especially where drafted, Newsome has been eh, hurt alot and emerson has been horrible this year(though I don't blame him for some as for some reason he's usually on their #1 instead of the 100m walking injury report) DPJ might be the worst returner we've ever had and he had flashes 2 years ago and hasn't done anything since, but as a 6th rounder he was a good value as he makes plays enough but could def. be upgraded. Nick Harris, Jerome ford, and alex Wright... JAGS.. so again I ask, what has Berry drafted thats really impacted our team positively. Sure he signs some FA's, which is part of the job, but other GM's drafted those players and we just offered them money after they had years of game tape. I think Dorsey was a superior talent evaluator and it was a mistake getting rid of him. But It goes back to is it the coaching taking a player and making them better or is it a coach being given players capable. I think its is the latter. I can't think of one player that KS has on his side of the ball that has gotten better under his coaching. I've seen Delpit take a good step forward under Schwartz after 2 years of meh and injuries. So that tells me KS is more of a problem and I'd be more willing to give Berry more time than i would KS

A contributing factor...WHO IS DOING THE EVALUATING..?

In 2016 those in charge of evaluating the draft talent in Cleveland changed.


Report: Browns drop 6 scouts right before the draft

David P. Woods
8yr ago
Peter G. Aiken / Getty Images Sport / Getty
link


The Cleveland Browns have parted ways with six scouts whose contracts were set to expire, league sources told ESPN's Adam Schefter.

It's a move made in the interest of streamlining the scouting process, according to Schefter. Nonetheless, the timing of the move is highly curious. The NFL draft is later this month and very rarely are scouts let go at this time of year.

It's possible these scouts will move on to new teams before the draft and pass along knowledge of the Browns' plans, but apparently that risk wasn't enough to convince Cleveland to employ them for a few more weeks.


Clearly those who took over the evaluation process did not put a high priority on Football Experience as a desirable tool needed to select draft talent. Now that they have a record since 2016 to judge their draft performance, was this a smart move by those who took the Browns draft room?

This might be the worst collection of takes I've seen in a while.

JOK is an up-and-coming star. Dude has added weight and it looks like it's already paying off. He's the only playmaker we have at LB and has done most of his work in Cleveland behind a horrid Dline (prior to this year). Newsome has been better than serviceable despite playing out of position (slot).

DPJ is a contested catch machine. Routinely makes tough catches at critical points. He came into the league raw in the 6th round and... developed. I can see why you'd try to pick on his returner skills given he's developed here as a receiver. Also, there's no way he's the worst returner (we've tried Schwartz, the RB/WR we recently let go who I can't remember... and DPJ is only the returner because the guy we signed to return has had 2 major injuries).

Nick Harris... I dunno what's up with this guy. He looked like he was gtg despite playing out of position early on, but he's fallen behind our more recent FA signings which have been stellar. Hard to get a read on this guy since we don't see him much. He's depth, but even then you gotta be able to decently play 2 positions on the Oline in order to be "good" depth.

For and Wright are coming along. Still too early to really tell.


Your take on DPJ is what really tipped me off on how off-base you are.

Yeah tell me you don’t know without telling me. A contested catch machine .. lol not quite. He’s got a 52 pff grade and rated around 100 in the league. Not quite a machine. He can be upgraded with quite a few people. And JOK is ranked somewhere in the 60’s. So yeah if he’s our best linebacker that supports what most have said for 3 years that our linebackers blows . Not even going to comment on Harris and wright. They both could get cut tomorrow and we wouldn’t notice. You can’t sit there and say in one breath Harris and wright are examples of good drafting and the next saying still too early to tell

As mentioned earlier in this thread you’re what your record says and our WR’s stats as a whole have a downward trend since Berry’s first season as a GM. That’s concerning.[/quote]

When I say that, I am speaking more in the immediate sense. I get the feeling some are ready to move on it this week

Once the season ends report cards are handed out and everybody is subject to change just like any other year. If a mid season change is necessary, it isn't with the team 2-2 and possibly 2-3 after this weeks game.

And your record is that you complain about everything.

Not so sure about your comment but in this case, I will side with mac. The Browns haven't delivered and the one time (1) they did win, they ran that QB out of town and now they're paying 46M per year for a guy performing poorer than the guy who shipped out (2 if you want to count Brissett).

The sad part of it all is that players like Teller, Bitonio, Garrett, Delpit, Chubb and Newsome to name a few have been busting their azzes off to make this team successful these 8-years and those in charge have let them down. The Browns were not only one player away in 2021 from being a Super Bowl contender as they tried to sell the fans nor are they one player away now. The Browns have the highest spend this year in the NFL (by a longshot), a less than average HC based on his record of 2 consecutive losing seasons, some grossly overpaid & unworthy players, and the above players deserve better than what this management team has delivered for them.

bull...I've been pretty consistent since the Haslam family handed the keys to the franchise over to the present management team.

Bull..you tell me, when if ever can the performance of the Browns management team be judged..their ability to draft and develop the type of talent needed to build the franchise into a consistent winner..?

2023 is year 8 under this management team and many, including ownership have pointed to 2023 as the year when the Browns were to be considered as a legit threat.

IMO, I believe Browns fans have waited long enough to see positive results.

Let me tell you what they have "waited to see" this season. Watson at QB and Chubb at RB as the leaders of the offense that will make good things happen. With Chubb out for the season and no legit backup QB, any Browns fan that expect to see what they had hoped to see before those injuries are only fooling themselves.

Now if you wish to make the argument that they should have had a better #2 QB on the roster I could get on board with that. If you wish to claim they should have went out and tried to sign a higher rated RB to bring in, that's a debate worth having.

But if you're trying to blame the powers that be for these major injuries to both the QB and RB positions that's not really anything of substance.

It seems to me with all that has transpired we as Browns fans are now looking at another long, disappointing season. The team we're playing Sunday was good, had a few down years and is now a Super Bowl favorite again. In the same time frame, we've had one good year and one playoff win. Think about that.

not only are we looking at a long, bad season ... we are looking at another complete rebuild

The truth hurts - it's why no one wants to hear it. This crap has been going on for 3 years now. When are people going to finally see the writing on the wall. There's nothing wrong with making mistakes, happens each and every day. Closing your eyes to those mistakes doing the same thing over and over hoping for different results is the real problem. This is the same crap that we had to deal with in 2021 and 2022. So here we are in 2023 and it's here again - TY Stefanski and Berry. LOL, and we'll still have people defending them here.

J/C

The receivers haven't been the problem. (Excluding the dumb wrong direction reverse) It's been the OL and overwhelmed rookie QB. The OL was supposed to be good. It hasn't been. Now more guys are banged up (Bitonio, Pocic.) It's a game of attrition, and we got a giant bite taken out of us early. Hopefully we'll get some guys back healthy and be able to make a run. Unfortunately, Chubb (nor Conklin) won't be one of them.

They just haven't been playing well. Teams found out a way to attack what we do, we had not figured out how to stop it yet. Hopefully, now Callahan has. I think a lot of it was/is just needing the guys to communicate better/more.

Maybe the quality of the OLine personnel was better last year than it is this year.

Berry's record at judging OLine personnel is a matter of record, drafting Wills over Wirfs and drafting Centers Nick Harris and Dawson Deaton.

If you're going to preach at me to restrict my posts to developing WR's, maybe you should be following your own advice.

The Browns WRs have 1 total TD as a group this year.
DPJ is a underachieving like no other.
So overrated on this board

If TD's are the standard you're using, as the #1 WR Coopper has only caught 1 TD. If only QB play was a common denominator. Oh wait a minute, it is.

You can’t draft or develop WR’s when you trade picks at the top of the draft.

More of a bash against the FO, but that is what happens when you mortgage the future on a single player…

You can’t draft or develop WR’s when you have a QB that can’t throw a football..

That goes back to Bad shoulder Baker, Brisset, and Walker.

Brissett had a 64% completion percentage with 12 td's and 6 int's in his time with the Browns. I think that means he could throw the ball.

I just trusted Brissett's decision making and ability to NOT kill us ... not to mention, his short yardage impact

Well, I will be more precise with my comment.

He was a good QB as a backup, but plays downfield or outside the numbers were a bit limited. So WR's are not going to put up huge numbers.

His best pass was a ten yard inside the numbers bullet that he could nail on a dime.

There are reasons that he has been limited as a starter throughout his career. And yes, I would take that limited right now.

I guess that was also my point as well. There aren't starting material QB's available right now. As it pertains to back up QB's he is an efficient QB that makes few mistakes. A game manager type. Certainly an upgrade to the Browns current options without having to break the bank.

What I think a lot of people forget is this.......


Browns have a top 5 offense including top 10 in passing

Cleveland’s offensive DVOA is impressive in multiple ways

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2022/11/3/23439550/browns-dvoa-offense-nick-chubb-jacoby-brissett

If one looks back at how highly our passing attack was ranked with Brissett under center I think it helps to put things in perspective.

We've simply regressed continuously at QB.

The best sustained QB performances in this offense are:

1. Baker Mayfield
2. Jacoby Brissett

and then it's a pretty big drop off to #3, which is currently PJ Walker.

Agreed. It's just another bad break for us that DW got injured. We have a team that can play with anyone if we had a healthy DW. We are built to win now and this had to happen. Now that I stated what we all know I'll offer a solution or 2. Try and trade for Brissett if possible. I would offer a 3 and a 5. If Washington doesn't want to trade then see if Wentz or Matt Ryan would be interested. We have to try something. I'd hate to see another promising season, like 2021, go down the drain. With Enough reps PJ might be OK but we shouldn't stand pat. JMO

The solution should have been having a capable back up QB on the roster. Now the only solution is scrambling to try and find one. We had Dobbs and gave him up for a ham sandwich and a six pack.

Exactly. No argument here. Keeping Dobbs was just common sense.

If we only had a 230 million dollar elite franchise QB…

I can't believe, well, I don't understand how people may have forgotten just how BAD the Browns offense was in the red zone,
especially passing, or dropping back to pass, in the red zone under Brissett,
and, how that continued over a large game stretch, 4 or many more games
If I'd recall, Case Keenum, Baker, and Dobbs all did better than Brissett in the offense, pound for pound,
But none of that matters
because none of them are going to play better than P.J. Walker is going to play in this Browns offense this upcoming game because only P.J. Walker will be on the field.