DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Israel at war continues.

I put the blame on Hamas. I'm not antisemitic as you are. War is terrible and Hamas brought this on themselves and the Palestinians.

Calling me names because I stand for not killing civilians of any race or religion isn't gong to cut it. That's nothing but an act of desperation. It's quite simple. What you're doing is blaming Hamas for Israel choosing to attack Gaza in the manner that will kill the most civilians. I've made it plain all along I support Israel in destroying Hamas. A soldier can identify and aim at his intended target. Bombs kill everyone and everything in their path. Like small children, the elderly and woman. I simply propose they destroy Hamas in a way that will minimize the deaths of innocent people while you make excuses and blame Hamas for their decision to maximize the innocent death toll. So much for the party of personal accountability.

Exactly... there are no good guys here... which makes it weird (to me) that the US is tripping over itself to send ~$14 billion in weapons (after already giving an incalculable amount over the years)... while at the same time having Ukraine aid get stuck in Congress.

It makes no sense. We've all seen what the Russians did in Bucha as well. Yet - along with what you're saying - aid to Ukraine = bad and aid to Israel = good for some reason.

There are numerous paradoxical arguments when comparing that rationale that haven't made sense to me.

Israel is in an Ally of the United States. Ukraine is not. Ukraine is fighting an enemy of the United States but we are not in an alliance with them.

You do realize there's a difference in being an ally and being a member of NATO, right?

The United States established diplomatic relations with Ukraine in 1991, following its independence from the Soviet Union. The United States attaches great importance to the success of Ukraine’s transition to a modern democratic state with a flourishing market economy. U.S. policy is centered on realizing and strengthening a democratic, prosperous, and secure Ukraine more closely integrated into Europe and Euro-Atlantic structures.

Bottom line is that all this killing is tragic.

What Hamas did was evil and vile and they deserve to be hunted down and killed.

But the 1,000's and 1,000's of women and children being slaughtered by Isreal is also inhumane and abhorrent. As collateral damage in Isreal's desire to fight a war against Hamas these deaths should be a tradgedy and unacceptable to everyone. And anyone with a brain that can think for themselves should appreciate that level of innocents killed simply increases the probability of relatives and friends of the dead being future muslim extremists wanting revenge.

Not only do the schools indoctrinate the children into terrorism, but Hamas does as well.

I'm certainly glad you believe all of these "allegations".

Are you claiming that video is fake?

I'm claiming that you are buying into something which may or may not be an accurate depiction of the big picture. I don't believe you have any real way of knowing whether all of these children are being taught these things in Palestinian schools or not. I know I don't. But I'm not going to rely on allegations made by bias sources. Just take a listen to who it is making these allegations and then tell me they don't have an agenda to support in their messaging. So it's not that I'm categorically denying those claims, it's that I don't trust whether they're true or not based on the sources mentioned.

The video is either real or it's not. The end. If you want to play the agenda game, who is reporting 1000's of women and children killed by Israel. Hamas. Do you feel they don't have an agenda in inflating numbers?

If those numbers are inflated, which they might be, even if they are being doubled it doesn't change the reality of watching watching women and children being dragged from the rubble on a daily basis. Something that could certainly be reduced by a huge amount if ground troops went in after Hamas than just bombing the hell out of Gaza. Your video shows isolated cases but does not show what is being claimed.

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

United Nations number of Palestinians killled since 2008 (Numbers do not include this current conflict).

Current numbers being reported:

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-eas...h-ministrys-death-toll-is-false-/3035010

He noted that there are around 13,000 UN staff members on the ground, saying that they "have a pretty good indication of the realities of what is going on the ground.”

Now clearly the UN is antisemitic so ....

As for video clips of kids being indoctrinated by Hamas - I am sure it happens. But your first statement read as if all Palestinian children are trained by Hamas like this. Not true - Hamas is like a dictatorship without free elections and any dissenting voices in Gaza are punished severly. Although you can bet your bottom dollar that support for Hamas has risen throughout the continues slaughter of innocent women and children ....

What you seem to miss is that people don't have to buy in to indoctrination. Yet, if one drops bombs on their friends and families, the children are more likely to believe that the people doing such things are evil--mainly because their actions are.

The best way to counter indoctrination is to prove it false rather than to feed more cause for hate into it.

I agree.


The difference is we are held to rules as an outside army, and we try to follow rules.

If this battle was being fought in our country, and had been for 40 years, I suspect the rules would be different.

The rules called for uniformed combatants. If their uniforms look like civilian attire, are you going to go asking people hoping you don't get shot?

I know you well enough. You wouldn't. If I am wrong, then you are stupid, but I don't think I am wrong because I don't think you are stupid. One doesn't come out of a war zone by being stupid.

I don't blame the IDF for what they are doing. But I do believe that short term cease fires are called for to evacuate non combatants. Honestly I'm not confident that I know the ramifications of that.

Bro, this is another pet peeve of mine. Our military creates killers, arms them, sends them into total chaos, and then handcuffs our troops with western morality while the enemy beheads prisoners… I’m NOT for killing civilians, but I’m also not for putting our troops in that situation. I believe that in and during WAR, if it looks like the enemy, smells like the enemy, walks like the enemy, talks like the enemy, you should shoot first, ask questions later. You should NOT be put in a situation that is untenable with the enemy bearing down. I’d like to see the politicians fight with their hands ties behind their backs. One day of that and a lot of these ticky-tacky rules of engagement would fall by the wayside.

And obviously I don’t mean psycho killers that lost their ish or madmen killing everything with a turbin/sheet on it’s head. I’m talking about the guy that kicks a door in and pulls the trigger on a 14 year old with an AK in his hands. I don’t think you have the time to discern rather he was just going hunting or he plans to blow you away… My old school ass says let whatever comes after sort that ish, if you feel an imminent life and death threat, you must shoot first and fast, period.

Now I know you went through much later and had to deal with all of this, I couldn’t and wouldn’t when it comes to CYA Ops. And I feel that way about any conflict on foretgn soil, but especially with terrorists. Terrorists groups like HAMAS use Western civility and morals against us all the damn time. just look at HAMAS pulling this crap and taking hostages because THEY KNEW all this liberal bleeding heart crap would happen when IDF started smashing their asses, and they knew they could leverage our moral convictions to their benefit. Call me crazy, but when they light the fuse by attacking us or our allies, I don’t think they should be afforded the methods to control the retaliation. No, I think for a period of time, the western moral rules of engagement and modern warfare should be suspended, when the enemy has no such restraints and commits atrocities. NOPE. A response should look much more like scorched earth than any semblance of this ‘fair’ system we’ve imposed on ourselves. Nope, this enemy is vicious and should be viciously irradicated, post haste!

Now if you can do that without civilian casualties or collateral damage, you absolutely should! But in my book, when a power like ours fights these skid-marks, the next ten generations need to fear and remember the penalties for that transgression IMHO, else it never ends until they win. You just can’t fight a mentality like that, with no moral boundries, and treat it like a gentleman’s disagreement. No, you have to disable or irradicate an enemy like that by all means nessecary.

They tell them to go south. Then they bomb in the south. They go to the border of Egypt to leave the country then they "accidentally" hit it with tank fire. The world watched as they bombed a refugee camp for three days in a row. Hundreds of American citizens are stuck in Gaza as they bomb it. They claim their main goal is to get back the hostages as they bomb the hell out of Gaza killing thousand in the very city in which they claim the hostages are being held. I wonder if any of those bombs they of which they're dropping are killing those very hostages? They withhold humanitarian aid starving and denying medical supplies to the very Palestinian civilians that had nothing to do with any of this.

And all we hear are excuses for it. They are creating the next generation of terrorists in Gaza and the Muslim world. The relatives of every Palestinian civilian they has been injured or killed by those bombs that had never raised a hand against Israel is now their enemy. And the rest of the Muslim world who were our allies before this are now questioning their alliance. The Muslim nations that were neutral are rethinking their position. The world has been watching and as such any sympathy they had for Israel before is now waning.

Support for Israel waning? Hmmm. Is that now official policy or is that your feelings? I’d like to see the poll results on that one.

Don’t forget the cause of their plight. And Muslim nations have never really been known to be neutral when it came to Israel. Killing Jews is what they do. Been going on for a few centuries now.

120 nations are calling for this in the U.N.......

By a recorded vote of 120 in favour to 14 against, with 45 abstentions, the Assembly adopted the resolution titled “Protection of civilians and upholding legal and humanitarian obligations” (document A/ES-10/L.25), demanding that all parties immediately and fully comply with their obligations under international law, including international humanitarian law.

Resuming the 193-member organ’s tenth emergency special session on the “Illegal Israeli actions in occupied East Jerusalem and the rest of the Occupied Palestinian Territory”, the Assembly called for immediate, full, sustained, safe and unhindered humanitarian access for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) and other UN humanitarian agencies and their implementing partners. It also called for the rescinding of the order by Israel, the occupying Power, for Palestinian civilians and United Nations staff to evacuate all areas in the Gaza Strip north of the Wadi Gaza and relocate to southern Gaza.

https://press.un.org/en/2023/ga12548.doc.htm

Hopefully that will work better for you than polling results.

I’m betting many of those nations don’t have hostages held by Hamas.

I certainly understand their plight but I'm not sure how killing ten times as many innocent civilians on the other side works to help that plight. It seems to me that would only work to help infuriate Muslim nations that had previously been staying out of this conflict. The problem seems to be that people are fully aware that many of these civilian casualties could have been avoided if Hamas was Israel's only real target. That you don't need to starve and deny water to the civilians of Gaza to defeat Hamas. That you don't have to deny medical supplies to many of those you yourself inflicted the damage upon.

I don't believe that Israel going after Hamas is an issue to most people. I think the uncalled for inhumanity inflicted on Palestinian civilians is the issue. When one side calls the other side terrorists for killing their civilians and then kill ten times as many of theirs in response, at some point that becomes a little hard to swallow. And the world is watching.

I'm betting many of those nations recognize when someone is claiming to be trying to get a terrorist group and watch them slaughter civilians instead. The excuses people keep making for the slaughter of innocent civilians boggles the mind.

So a formalized agreement is the only thing you’re going with here? The logic of everything I just said still applies. We stand to benefit just as much - if not way more - if Ukraine is victorious vs Israel.

How to you know all 10 are civilians? Maybe it 8. Maybe 4, and yes maybe all 10.

The problem is that Irael is tired of trying to figure out the maybes.

Terrorists have already hit our Country. If Israel fails or if we do not show resolve in defense of Israel how long before terrorist target the US again. If you listen to their chants, it is death to Israel and death to the United States. Those terrorists hate us just as much. They just fear us more. With a frail old man in change, I'm not sure why. At least Israel has a leader in charge. They need to not only defeat Hamas they must totally wipe Hamas from existence. That attack on Oct 7th was Isis like. That needs to be dealt with severely.

I don’t think you understand how Hamas works. They hide behind civilians in hospitals, and schools. They do not care about life. All they care about is killing Jews. The Palestinians voted them into power. Hamas governs GAZA. The people of Gaza have harbored Hamas for decades and have not expelled them themselves. Now that Hamas has committed these atrocities on Israel other Muslim countries want Israel to show restraint and mercy on Hamas and their citizens? That ain’t going to happen. Especially while Hamas is holding Israeli hostages at gun point and who knows what else. Free the hostages or die is what Israel is going with.

Except it's not Hamas doing the dying. It's women and children. Unfortunately, Israel seems to be doing everything they can to make the entire Muslim world rise against them. Frankly, that could have been Hamas' plan all along.

You don't get rid of monsters by becoming monsters.

Treating refugee camps like pseudo-concentration camps is quite the role reversal for Israel. Gathering civilians "somewhere safe," so that you can kill them more efficiently is rather jacked up. The we were taking out a high value target excuse rings pretty hollow.

That sounds like a fine excuse to continue to slaughter innocent civilians. "We're tired of trying to figure it out."

It sounds like someone at Princeton got tired of trying to figure it out too.........

Muslim student struck in Stanford hit-and-run calls for love, compassion, from hospital bed

Abdulwahab Omira, an Arab Muslim student at Stanford University, has released a statement after he was struck by a car Friday afternoon in what authorities are calling a hate crime.

“As I lay in my hospital bed, grappling with a reality I had never imagined, I reflect on the importance of spreading love, kindness, and compassion in a world that seems to be steadily succumbing to hatred and prejudice,” Omira said. “This ordeal has solidified my resolve to advocate for love, understanding, and inclusivity.”

Omira claims the driver, whom he described to authorities after the incident as “a white male in his mid-20s, with short dirty-blond hair and a short beard, wearing a gray shirt and round framed eyeglasses,” had expressed hostility toward Muslims before.

“An individual who had previously shown animosity towards my community, struck me intentionally,” Omira said in his statement. “His hateful screams of ‘f*** you and your people’ still echo in my ears as I grapple with the physical and emotional pain this incident has left in its wake.”

Omira was walking to class just before 2 p.m. Friday when he was struck by a 2015 or newer black Toyota 4Runner. A preliminary investigation by the California Highway Patrol determined the incident was a hate crime, according to a Saturday statement from the Santa Clara County Sheriff’s Office, which is leading the investigation.

To date, Stanford University’s Department of Public Safety has released two alerts about the incident – one on Friday and an update Saturday – but Omira says the school took too long to issue a warning to the community and showed insufficient concern for his well-being or the circumstances of the incident.

“The hours following the incident were agonizingly silent from the institution that I had trusted to be my safeguard,” Omira said. “It took a multitude of emails and a cry for acknowledgment to bring forth a personal response from the administration.”

Dee Mostofi, assistant vice president of external communications for Stanford University told CNN campus authorities issued the notice as soon as they had enough information from the highway patrol about the incident.

While Omira points out “emotional scars—the feeling of being targeted solely because of my heritage and beliefs—are likely to linger,” he said he hopes his experience will ultimately serve as a positive inspiration to society.

“Today, as I share my story, my hope is to ignite a spark of empathy, a desire for change, and a call to action to foster a society where love overpowers hate, where understanding douses ignorance, and where compassion binds us in a tapestry of unified strength,” Omira said.

Stanford president Richard Saller and provost Jenny Martinez condemned the hit-and-run in a campus statement Friday.

“We are profoundly disturbed to hear this report of potentially hate-based physical violence on our campus,” the statement read. “Violence on our campus is unacceptable. Hate-based violence is morally reprehensible.”

The Council on American–Islamic Relations San Francisco Bay Area said in a statement Saturday the incident “underscores the urgent need to address the growing Islamophobia and hatred that have been plaguing our communities.”

The crime comes amid heightened tensions in the US following the October 7 Hamas terror attacks and intense Israeli bombardment of Gaza. Last month, a man stabbed a 6-year-old Palestinian-American boy to death in Chicago in an incident being investigated by the Department of Justice as a hate crime. And Muslim and Arab groups across the country have reported a rise in vandalism, threats, and harassment.

https://www.kadn.com/news/national/...fcfd64b-a722-51ec-aeb5-3ea252f56286.html

More strikes on refugee camps over the week-end.....

Warplanes strike Gaza refugee camps as Israel rebuffs U.S. push for humanitarian pause

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...wHKMoQlVTEKcjix9C3qph-VtF_mi6Feqdovbl96Y

I guess they're tired of trying to figure out what a refugee camp is too.

That is a lot of sensationalism. Let's play these scenarios out. First, Israel isn't going anywhere. They will not be destroyed. Let's look at the other direction. Israel takes over Gaza completely and occupies the territory and destroys Hamas. What then? Peace in the Middle East? I don't think so. It's going to be more of the same. Perhaps the regions will shift, but the same thing that's gone on for ages will still exist.

Now, Russia annihilates Ukraine, or at least takes it over, and then they take over Moldova, and sit on the doorstep of NATO, along with bordering their toadie governments, the likes of Orban and the new Slovakian government. That will greatly increase our overall future expenditures and balance the power in Russia's favor in the region. On the flipside, if Ukraine kicks Russia completely out of Ukraine, then the dominos will fall for a major historical adversary to re-experience an era of collapse. Balance will majorly shift into the US' hands. I don't think people realize what a linch pin Ukraine is for us.

The hard liners want to gift Ukraine to Putin. Comrades in arms they are. Putin supporters every last one of them.

Lots of conflating going on.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that runs Gaza as an unelected dictatorship (for want of a better description).

Isreal is a nation state governed by treaties and international law.

Hamas has stated they seek the obliteration of Isreal. Remember, they are a terrorist organization...

It is not ok for Isreal to try to ethnically cleanse a region. It's not ok for Isreal to slaughter thousands upon thousands of KIDS and WOMEN under the guise of killing dozens, maybe a hundred, maybe hundreds of Hamas.

Ironic that some that seem to oppose abortion based on religious grounds or love of life seem happy to suggest that ANY amount of INNOCENT lives lost is acceptable in the futile attempt to destroy a terrorist group.

He supports the biggest threat to our country as POTUS, you have to take that into consideration in your response. He thinks their brand of domestic terrorism is justified because Trump Jesus.

But I agree with his take in the end. They need gone, sorry about the innocent deaths/injuries but not sorry they are protecting themselves from HAMAS terrorists embedded inside the GAZA civillian population. I would do the same.

Oh, so when Israel stops going after HAMAS for the civilians, can they count on you, Pit, all their Muslim enemies, and all the bleeding hearts protesting them to sort it out and remove the threat of HAMAS from Israel? No they can’t. But they can count on their IDF to go hard and long to achieve that goal. The decision is simple. The Palestinians also bear some responsibility for allowing HAMAS to exist inside their country, let alone govern it. Sorry, not sorry. Israel doing what it needs, and we need to just shut up and watch. Not eradicating HAMAS now will inevitably lead to a repeat of Oct 7th, WE ALL KNOW THAT. So, what should they do?

And whoever said you don’t become monsters to get rid of monsters has never truly faced a monster, IMHO. Sure there are lot of optimal cases for what we should and shouldn’t do morally and ethically, this is not one of those. HAMAS kills jews, kills children, and kills old folks that are all civilians. They takes civilians hostage. The behead people, rape, and murder. Mostly to civilians. They also specifically target Israeli civilians to make war upon Israel. Palestine is paying the price for allowing these people to be empowered, embedded, and to govern GAZA. I’m sorry for those who had no voice in any of it, but I’m personally fine with Israel doing whatever it must to kill every one of them.

And this is a serious question; if you knew a known child murderer, rapist, and war criminal was hiding behind his wife and kids to avoid punishment, would you call off the police raid? This is basically what HAMAS counts on, our western sense of morality and ethics. Meanwhile, by our standards, they act completely amoral and ruthless. It’s an impossible war without blameless people on either side. I know Israel is far from innocent or without blame, but they are our allies and a democracy. Then you have Palestine, a Muslim radical theocracy or a terroristic hardline Muslim government… either way, I have to have Israels back on this one.

Just as I stated - lots of conflating.

So you're fine with killing innocent women and children in extreme numbers because somehow you manage to minimize their importance and value an innocent Palestian child life less than an Isreal life 'because Isreal is an Ally'... and somehow you manage to tar the Women and ZChildren with the same brush as the terrorsits.

You're also apparently fine with Isreal ignoring/breaking international law. And fine with Isreal forcing hospitals to close (50 out of 72 as of last count) and according to Oxfam Gaza is getting 2% of it's normal amount of food. All fine with you 'because' ...

You're apparently ok with genocide as long as it's a US ally doing it.

That's fine - that's your opinion and position and at least you spelled it out. I disagree with you and think any nation state needs to abide by international laws. When England was being bombed for decades by the IRA - it wouldn't have been acceptable to go in and slaughter the innocent Irish families who the IRA hid amongst. Or is your position that the UK should have gone in and raised Southern Ireland in an effort to protect themselves? In Spain you have Basque separatists who carry out terroism attacks - likewise, I don't believe you can't simply go into a region and decimate a population 'just because'. I don't know but I'd bet there are many other examples around the globe. Some 'allies' some not.