DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Israel at war continues.

Hamas are not Palestinian civilians. Since you obviously haven't been keeping up, Israel has been bombing in southern Gaza. The very pace they told them to go to be safe. I suppose in your world women and children are the same as Hamas.

Did I say a damn thing about Palestinian civilians? I said HAMAS. Go hug a tree.

Okay Mr. Progressive. For somebody who closely aligns themselves with all of the tree huggers that's a pretty odd comment. lmao

Here is what you posted....


So you actually responded to a post about civilians being killed with this and then try to backtrack. Smoke another one.

Nope. You’re wrong as usual.

Actually a large portion of Hamas are Palestinian and their families live with them in Gaza. Palestinian civilians. Besides Hamas started lobbing in artillery first again even before the end of the ceasefire.

DUBAI, United Arab Emirate (AP) — An American warship and multiple commercial ships came under attack Sunday in the Red Sea, the Pentagon said, potentially marking a major escalation in a series of maritime attacks in the Mideast linked to the Israel-Hamas war.

“We’re aware of reports regarding attacks on the USS Carney and commercial vessels in the Red Sea and will provide information as it becomes available,” the Pentagon said.

The Carney is an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer.


The British military earlier said there had been a suspected drone attack and explosions in the Red Sea, without elaborating.


This …
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The Pentagon did not identify where it believed the fire came from. However, Yemen’s Iran-backed Houthi rebels have been launching a series of attacks on vessels in the Red Sea, as well as launching drones and missiles targeting Israel as it wages war against Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters, said the attack began about 10 a.m. in Sanaa, Yemen, and had been going on for as much as five hours.


There was no immediate comment from the Houthis. However, a Houthi military spokesman earlier said an “important” statement would be released shortly.

Global shipping had increasingly been targeted as the Israel-Hamas war threatens to become a wider regional conflict — even as a truce has halted fighting and Hamas exchanges hostages for Palestinian prisoners held by Israel.

Earlier in November, the Houthis seized a vehicle transport ship also linked to Israel in the Red Sea off Yemen. The rebels still hold the vessel near the port city of Hodeida. Missiles also landed near another U.S. warship last week after it assisted a vessel linked to Israel that had briefly been seized by gunmen.

However, the Houthis had not directly targeted the Americans for some time, further raising the stakes in the growing maritime conflict. In 2016, the U.S. launched Tomahawk cruise missiles that destroyed three coastal radar sites in Houthi-controlled territory to retaliate for missiles being fired at U.S. Navy ships, including the USS Mason, at the time.

I'm still not sure what that has to do with purposefully using a major bombing campaign which they know will kill thousands of women and children. I mean I guess if you want to say, "well terrorists did it too" that's one way to look at it. But for some reason I thought they were suppose to be better than terrorists. Trying to compare members of a terrorist organizations with ever day citizens seem to be the go to.

That's not a good sign moving forward.

Yemen’s Houthis need a proper spanking… Should have demolished that country after the naval ship bombing there. I don’t have the patience needed to call shots on a global scale because I would annihilate asshats like these Houthis the moment they showed up. Allowing groups like this to fire willy nilly on whoever they want is WEAKNESS on our part, IMO. We should have already bombed the hell out of wherever those drones and missiles were launched from today. Flatten it all.

You do realize that "demolishing a country" means killing every civilian who lives there, correct?

What you should have asked is if I care. I don’t. I’m a firm believer in paying what’s due, that smackdown is past due.

So you have no problam killinng innocent women and children for the acts of terrorists. Well at least you stepped up and admitted it this time. I had no idea killing them was "what's due".

You don’t have any idea about a lot of things from my POV. Now, go hug a tree.

Bro you need to chill out with that. Not a good look and you need to reevaluate yourself.

It is written It is appointed unto every man once to die and after this the judgement.
God's word in the garden of Eden will be fulfilled. I think this conflict will eventually spread to every human on earth, because in the old testament God made a covenant with Abraham and gave the Land to Israel,
I mean the signs are all here. We are in the time after Noah and the flood, and since the birth of Christ whose life was ransomed by God the Father, for a payment to God himself for the forgiveness of the sins of the whole world, to all who would believe on the name of the SON of God Jesus Christ, and all who have died unrighteously in the name of God and Jesus at the hands of evil, or because of evil throughout history, will return from heaven clothed in white robes with Jesus and angels, to make war with the inhabitants of earth, and not only the people, but the antichrist and false prophet too, and all the demons and evil which the inhabitants of the earth at that time have so unrighteously listened to instead of the word of God,
and that war will put all the unbelievers into heck forever which their unrighteous non believing deeds have caused them to earn, because they loved the bad things of human want more than they loved the righteousness and Holyness of God, and did not repent,
and as God has said it would be done with Fire this time and not like last time when the flood of Gods' Judgement was done with water
so today if you still hear the Gospel, of Gods plan of salvation, repent, and be baptized,

because when Christ comes back we will be in the Day of the LORD.

Nah, I’m good. Thanks, but I’ll live with my own thoughts on the matter. This is one place my humanity leaves me because I have zero give a damns for these people or region. They act like damn animals then expect pity when they get their own people killed. NOPE.

Play stupid games and you get the rewards you deserve. Say whatever you will, the middle east is a cesspool of religious idiocy and stone-age ignorance. I honestly don’t care about any of them, just the potential harm they represent to the US. So, Pit can color me the bad guy and you can pile on all you want; I don’t care.

The US isn’t firing those missiles/drones at us or our allies… We didn’t fire first… BUT IMHO we should take the final shot and put them down FOR WHAT THEY DID.

Sometimes I wonder if Pit or people like Pit consider where we would be if we did not kill terrorists, did not back Israel, did not return fire when fired upon… This is all big player games. The US vs. Iran is what is going on outside of GAZA in the area now. And all of these players including Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, etc. are nothing but Iran acting out on the world stage with ZERO accountability. If we don’t stop it, American boots will hit the ground at some point, and Iran will get the war they think they want.

Did you not hear what I just said? Hamas started hostilities up again before the cease fire was lifted. You think they care about civilians? Palestinian people you call innocent have harbored Hamas for decades. Their women and children are not being targeted as you suggest. Hamas is being targeted. Hamas has put their own women and children in harms way. It’s a war. War is hell. They attacked innocent civilians in Israel and Israel has every right to defend themselves by destroying Hamas in a war they started, which may or may not include their families.

Over 40% of residential homes and buildings have been destroyed by bombs. That's not "targeting Hamas". I understand Hamas should be destroyed. I sympathize with the Israeli people. If anything Hamas has refused to allow Palestinians from holding elections. The Palestinians have no power to kick Hamas out as its government. I'm not sure how you think some of the most impoverished people on the planet can overthrow the only people who have the weaponry to control them. There is supposed to be a difference between terrorists and civilized governments. Slaughtering civilians with bombs instead of guns and knives is the only real difference I see here. Claiming that 80% of the people killed in Gaza are women and children while at the same time saying they aren't being targeted sounds a little empty at best. At the very least Israel doesn't care about slaughtering innocent civilians any more than Hamas does.

The last election allowed in Gaza was in 2006. So people can stop pretending that the Palestinian people support Hamas being in power. They don't have a say.

He hasn't had the experiences you have and has no idea what he is talking about. From everything you have posted on this board it's my understanding that you were taught and trained the difference between enemy combatants and the civilian population and were taught to do everything in your power to differentiate the two in battle. I'm sure you met many of those civilians and understand that they often times do not support those in power and that in the end, they're not so different than we are in all they want is to live a life in peace. Some people simply lack the ability to comprehend those things.

Isn't this pretty much what Hamas said when they launched their big attack?

You don’t know a damn thing about me other than what I let you know. Swish and I served in DIFFERENT eras. Yes he was trained differently. Big Fn Deal. War is war. And I appreciate Swish’s input, experience, and service… but I OWN MY OWN MIND, and I see things through MY LENS. I know coming from your world of total conformity, that this seems bizarre, but individuals think individually. I feel how I feel and don’t care about being fair, humane, or walking in lockstep with the infallible Pit of DT Fame. TBH, if we weren’t the world police and this was just some stuff between foreign unallied countries, I wouldn’t even pay attention to it. I despise theocracies, and especially radicalized theocracies. I also hate dictatorships. And between the two, that’s all that part of the world consists of. So excuse me when I feel absolutely nothing for people who would see me, mine, and those like me killed for just being alive. Ever hear the word infidel? Well, when it’s all over, no matter how hard you and other like you fight for these people, you will still be an infidel not worthy of life to them.

Swish, spent time with the people of the middle east. He knows more about how they think and live than I do, that’s for sure. But I have no attachments like that, I don’t get their culture/belief system, I know nobody from the region that thinks any higher of it than I do. And my son-in-law is half Lebanese with a brother living and teaching there. Strangely enough, his family feels just like me, HAMAS must go no matter the costs. Odd, huh?

So, why don’t you climb out of my ass and get back to doing you, while I do me.

You are unable to discern the difference between Hamas and innocent civilians. Or if you do you think it's fine to blow up innocent civilians for the acts of Hamas. So you do you no matter how sad that is. And BTW it seems you don't understand how "social media" works. When you throw your BS out in a forum, others have very right to respond. And I will no matter how many tantrums you throw.

Hamas must go. That we agree on. Palestinian civilians are not Hamas. I'm not sure what part of that your brain can't process.

No I can discern. I just don’t care. How hard is that for you to wrap around? Nothing about war is ‘right or fair’. And those people will die no matter what I think. I’m not pulling the trigger, I’m just watching how it plays out, AFTER THE FACT. And your labors at brow beating me are purely in vain. Enjoy your day.

I'm browbeating? You really need to look up the definition of the word.

It is not worth arguing with him. He does not believe Israel has a right to defend itself. He believes that Palestine people are better off with Hamas. War is ugly and it there is a human cost but, in the end, if Israel gets rid of Hamas the Palestinian people will be better off. Hamas is Palestinian people's oppressor. I don't understand why it is so hard for some to figure that out.

Slaughtering women and children does not classify as "defending yourself". Dead Palestinian civilians won't be better off at all. None of this has anything to do with Israel "defending itself". Of course they have the right to defend themselves. What they don't have the right to do is use methods that inflict the most civilian deaths possible while doing so. The human cost should be held to the minimum and not needlessly kill the maximum. With ground troops moving in that should help if only they would stop bombing Gaza endlessly. Surely you can't believe with all of the devastation of so many residential neighborhood they were only targeting "Hamas targets" do you?

The only thing i want is for Israel to use the methods of war that will minimize civilian casualties but you paint that any way you like. I would think most Christians would hope for the same thing as I do.

No one likes war. No one wants to see innocents killed. I believe though to achieve victory vs terrorists that live among the people. Oppress the people and use the people as shields. Use places that normal civil humans would not use as military bases (hospitals and schools) that Israel has to do what is necessary to achieve victory. Or they will end up like the United States did when they pulled out of Afghanistan and the terrorists raped and killed everyone that worked and helped the Americans. Terrorists do not answer to logic. They do not act with sanity. They only understand civility when they are killed. If the people of Gaza want peace it will be when Israel liberates them from Hamas.

You can accomplish everything you just stated with ground troops without killing so many innocent civilians by constantly bombing the entire area killing so many innocent civilians. Ground troops can identify their targets. They can see a child, a woman or elderly person who is not Hamas. Bombs kill everyone in its path. The goal that is wanted is something we both share. The only real difference between us is I refuse to make excuses why Israel is using the method of engagement that inflicts the most deaths on the innocent. In the end they have to have ground troops in there anyway just as they do now. In the end thy have to take Gaza street by street. In the end it could have cost the life of far fewer civilians.

j/c

'We feared our govt would kill us and blame Hamas': Released Israeli captive

Released captives were 'were under constant threat' from Israeli army shelling, they angrily told prime minister Netanyahu in a face to face meeting

A recently released Israeli captive held in Gaza revealed that she feared Israel would kill her and others through indiscriminate shelling and then blame Hamas, Ynet reported on 6 December.

Menir Oz made the statement in a meeting between her and other recently released captives and their family members on the one hand, and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his war cabinet on the other.

During the meeting, the released captives and family members expressed anger at Netanyahu for his war policy which put their lives in danger.

“I was there and I know how hard it is in captivity," said Menir. "Every day in captivity was very difficult. I was in a home when there was shelling all around. We were sitting in the tunnels and we were terribly afraid that not Hamas but Israel would kill us, and then they would say, ‘Hamas killed you.’ So, I very much ask as soon as possible to start exchanging the prisoners and everyone should return home. There is no priority [of some over others]. Everyone is important.”

Bar Goldstein told what his family members who returned from captivity in Gaza described to him: "Fortunately, I had the privilege of receiving my sister-in-law Chen [Goldstein Almog] and her children. They were under constant threat from the IDF [Israeli army] shelling.”

He told Netanyahu that “You sat in front of us and assured us that it does not threaten their lives.”

The shelling was dangerous because the captives were not held just in tunnels and homes but had been moved on donkey carts through the streets of Gaza, exposing them to the bombing which has killed almost 16,000 Palestinians since 7 October when Hamas took the Israelis captive.

“You will not be able to recognize them on the street and you are endangering their lives. It is our duty to return them now,” he added.

Another captive who was released with her children also expressed anger at the army’s shelling of the location where she was held in Gaza, and that Israeli Apache helicopters had opened fire at them as they were being taken from their home across the border into Gaza.

She said: "The feeling we had there was that no one was doing anything for us. The fact is that I was in a hiding place that was shelled and we had to be smuggled out while we were wounded. Not to mention the helicopter that shot at us on the way to Gaza. You claim that there is intelligence, but the fact is that we were being shelled.”

She also expressed anger that the army was discussing flooding the tunnels under Gaza with sea water to kill Hamas fighters while her husband and others remain captive in the same tunnels.

“My husband was separated from us three days before we returned to Israel and he was taken to the tunnels. And you are talking about flooding the tunnels with sea water? You are shelling the route of tunnels in the exact area where they are.”

A 6 December report from The Grayzone further indicates freed Israeli captives feared being killed by their own army while in Gaza. According to a Facebook post by Israeli television producer Hagai Levi, “From the reports of the returning abductees, it is repeated that the most horrifying captivity trauma they experienced was probably the IDF bombings."

Levy stated further that, "When they tell about them, they literally tremble in front of me. The terms are of hell, of the brink of death, of an earthquake, of noise from another planet (which also caused permanent hearing damage). The fear of being murdered by the captors was zero compared to the fear of dying in the bombing.”

Prime Minister Netanyahu has vowed to both win the return of all the Israelis held captive by Hamas and also to defeat the Palestinian resistance group militarily. But many view these as contradictory goals and suggest the captives can only be freed through a cease fire followed by negotiations.

Hamas is seeking to exchange its Israeli captives for thousands of Palestinians held captive in Israeli occupation prisons.

On 7 October, Hamas launched a surprise attack in which thousands of its fighters broke through the border fence from Gaza into Israel under the cover of rocket fire.

To regain control of the military bases and settlements taken over by Hamas, and to prevent the group’s fighters from taking soldiers and civilians captive back to Gaza, the Israeli military employed overwhelming fire power, including from armed Zik drones, Apache helicopters, and Merkava tanks.

Some 1,200 Israelis were killed during the attack and subsequent fighting, while Hamas successfully took 240 captives.

Some of the 1,200 Israelis were killed by Hamas fighters and other Palestinians who later flooded into Israeli settlements to loot. Some others were killed by Israeli forces themselves, whether accidentally in the crossfire, or deliberately due to what is known as the Hannibal Directive.

https://new.thecradle.co/articles/w...and-blame-hamas-released-israeli-captive

j/c

IDF Official Admits Israel’s Goal in Bombing Gaza Is to Inflict Severe Damage

“The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy,” Israel Defense Forces official Daniel Hagari said.

An Israeli military spokesman admitted Tuesday what was plainly obvious to witnesses of the mass destruction underway in the besieged Gaza Strip: that the goal of Israel’s ongoing bombing campaign is to inflict severe damage on the occupied territory, not to strictly target Hamas military installations.

“The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy,” Israel Defense Forces official Daniel Hagari said, according to Haaretz.

Hagari’s remarks came after Israeli airstrikes leveled residential buildings, ripped through a crowded marketplace in Gaza’s largest refugee camp, damaged hospitals and mosques, and wiped out families in the wake of a Hamas attack on Israel that killed hundreds of people.

The New York Times reported that Israeli strikes “also hit four mosques in the Shati refugee camp on Monday, according to Gaza authorities, toppling their domes and killing worshipers inside. Neighbors picked through the rubble of the Sousi mosque, where witnesses said boys had been playing soccer just outside when it was destroyed.”

Hagari said in a briefing late Monday that Israel’s aerial assault on Gaza had used “thousands of armaments” over the previous 24 hours.

“To put that in perspective, the pace of the strikes is five times that of the strikes on Hezbollah in the Second Lebanon War,” said Hagari. “I repeat, five times what it was against Hezbollah in the Second Lebanon War.”

The IDF official’s comments amplified warnings that Israel is collectively punishing Gaza’s population of around 2 million people, roughly half of whom are children. Earlier Monday, Israel’s defense minister announced a “total” blockade of the enclave, cutting off its electricity supply and vowing to prevent all food and fuel from entering.

Collective punishment is a war crime.

“Gazans have been saying Israel is indiscriminately bombing them, with no goal other than to level Gaza to the ground. Now Israel admits the same,” Yumna Patel, Palestine news director at Mondoweiss, wrote in response to Hagari’s remarks. “No more lies about ‘precision targets against Hamas.’ Just pure destruction.”

Hajer Naili, director of communications at the nonprofit Center for Civilians in Conflict, added that “such a statement indicates that Israel is neither using precaution, proportionality, [nor] distinguishing between civilians and combatants when launching attacks in Gaza.”

“This is a violation of international humanitarian law,” Naili wrote. “The [international] community must stop condoning such violations.”



Middle East Eye reported that before Israel bombed the Jabalia refugee camp on Monday, killing dozens, Gazans living nearby woke up “to clear instructions from the Israeli army: leave your homes and head to the city center.”

“Many in Beit Hanoun, a densely packed area in northeast Gaza, heeded the call,” the outlet noted. “They went westwards, some two kilometers away, to the Jabalia refugee camp, in the hope of finding relative safety. But instead, they were greeted with death. Israeli fighter jets bombed two buildings in the main market of the camp, killing at least 50 people, Gaza’s Ministry of Health has said.”

Muhammed Lubbad, a Gaza resident, told Middle East Eye that “taxi drivers, pedestrians, and sellers” were among the victims of the deadly strike.

“Almost everyone who was inside the Rabaa Mall was killed. No one there was left alive,” he said. “It’s a massacre that no one imagined could happen.”

During a press conference on Monday, United Nations Secretary-General António Guterres condemned “acts of terror” committed by Hamas and said he is “deeply alarmed” by Israel’s response.

“We already have reports of Israeli missiles striking health facilities inside Gaza as well as multi-storied residential towers and a mosque,” said Guterres, who added that two United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) schools sheltering displaced families were also hit by Israeli bombs.

“Some 137,000 people are currently sheltering in UNRWA facilities — with the number increasing as heavy shelling and airstrikes continue,” Guterres added. “I am deeply distressed by today’s announcement that Israel will initiate a complete siege of the Gaza Strip, nothing allowed in — no electricity, food, or fuel. The humanitarian situation in Gaza was extremely dire before these hostilities; now it will only deteriorate exponentially.”

https://truthout.org/articles/idf-o...ombing-gaza-is-to-inflict-severe-damage/

The idea of a mass killing event where 15,000 people - mostly innocents, mostly women and children - is anything but a mass recritutment for Hamas is laughable. The idea you can defeat Hamas when Hamas leadership isn't even in Gaza is laughable. The only thing you wrote that was accurate was that terrorists do no answer to logic or act with sanity.

This idea that has now been repeated recently that there are no innocent people in Gaza is not only so very wrong - when we are talking about the deaths of newborns, babies and children so young ... from a any perspective it is beyong stupid and ridiculous. From a religous perspective I would have expected an outcry for the slaughter of babies - not the embracing of it as a means to an end.

Displacing 1.8 million mostly innocent people out of a population of 2.3 mllion breaks international laws. Funny that Israel told the Palestians to go South to be safe ... and now they are bombing/leveling the south ....

It's all tragic - October the 7th was tragic and evil. What the Israel's have done in retaliation also tragic.... and it will do nothing to 'end hamas'

Well said...

However, Israel is still an ally. How do you support an ally without condoning what they are doing? I feel like we are trying to walk this tightrope right now and failing.

Looks like Israel plans to flood the tunnel system with sea water.

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-ea...lood-gaza-tunnels-with-seawater-a375dd0b

Hope they don't end up drowning a lot of their own hostages in the process.

Let’s just say that it’s not the most well thought out idea…

To paraphrase…

Like sands through an hourglass, these are the sinkholes of our lives.

Seawater into a tunnel, with buildings on top…. What could go wrong????

Half of Gaza's Population - so around 1.15 million people - now starving according to the UN.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67670679

Seems about half the board thinks that'd be outrageous - the other half think it's acceptable in the effort to eliminate Hamas (while ignoring that Hamas won't be eliminated - only more heavily supported by this action.)

Based on some of the BS I see posted here about wanting a ceasefire being tantamount to being antisemitic - I guess 153 Nations are all antisemitic.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/12/middleeast/ceasefire-vote-gaza-israel-un-intl/index.html#:~:text=A%20majority%20of%20153%20nations,unlike%20a%20Security%20Council%20resolution.

Tuesday’s brief resolution calls for a ceasefire, for all parties to comply with international law, and for humanitarian access to hostages as well as their “immediate and unconditional” release. It notably contains stronger language than an October vote in the assembly that had called for a “sustained humanitarian truce.”

For anyone struggling to read between the lines - 153 Nations feel like Israel is breaking international law.

The last time the US took such a contrary position to the rest of the world was over the allegation that there were weapons of mass destriction in Iraq.

I don’t think Yours or Pits positions are any more right or wrong than anyone else’s. War is a horrible thing and nobody wants to see kids getting killed. I intentionally left out women because they are often also combatants. But wanting no innocent lives lost is truly an ideal goal, even if impossible under the conditions. So, anyone saying that should not catch flack for taking either side.

I know Israel might or maybe already has crossed a line causing innocents to die in their determination to eliminate HAMAS. But you, me, Pit, and others ARE NOT responsible for anything that happens, we are only commenting on it and giving our opinions. No big deal, no need for the hate.

If you are that emotional about any of these political discussions, that you feel the need to hate on other posters, maybe you should write your leaders OR theirs instead. You know, be more proactive than a bulletin-board-troll.

I am intentionally evolving at that myself, at the moment I’m trying to be patient with the people on the other side while calling out all the crazy crap their leaders say and do. I know how hard it is to not be hateful in a bipartisan free-for-all where one side has disregarded facts, precedents, institutional norms, civility, democracy, and the grand American experiment. But this too shall pass and on the otherside, those still standing will have to work together to put the country back together.

I'm not sure what the part about "indiscriminate bombing" that you're missing. That is intended to kill non combatants. I'm not sure what part of following international law you are missing. There is no "hate" towards other posters. Even Biden has called out Israel for the way they're conducting themselves as well as over 100 nations in the U.N. Israel is actually hurting themselves on the world stage and losing support around the globe. If you can't see that, if you refuse to admit that, the problem is your own.