Let me spear you in the knee, and let's see how that goes. Maybe toss a 300 pound lineman at you while you're looking the other direction.
How has your conditioning held up to those things? I'm guessing that it hasn't had to.
Bull...your opinion seems to be that the Browns just have BAD LUCK when it come to injuries...you absolutely have a right to your opinion.
But, I've never been one to rely on excuses for poor performances. There are factors and reasons that contribute to results and if we want to solve a problem or improve a situation we have to attempt to figure out WHY the current results are poor.
I played against the best competition from the area and it did include 300 pounders. Playing strong side outside LB at a time when it was legal to cut block and roll block and double team high/low...the rules were lax and anyone playing OLB was at risk of for a knee injury.
The level of competition is in no way comparable to the NFL but when I look at the records established by some of the greatest to ever play in the NFL and I read their accounts of how they stayed healthy during their careers...I can relate, noting my own personal experiences.
I view the Browns injury situation as the #1 obstacle standing in the way of a Browns Super Bowl victory. We have the talent..we have the coaching..it's time that weaknesses with in the support structure be addressed if the franchise goal is to produce a Super Bowl winner !
jmo..mac
300 pounders in the 80s were rare. If you played before that, it would've been even more rare. That's part of reason William Perry was popular. It's been a long time since I've seen a video on the Fridge, but I remember him being hard to bring down, but really slow. Nowadays, 300 pounders are everywhere and it is normal to see them being super athletic and running sub 5 40s.
These collisions today are like two super cars going full speed at each other. Injuries will happen more frequently, especially leg injuries considering the rules are in place to penalize hitting higher.
Let me spear you in the knee, and let's see how that goes. Maybe toss a 300 pound lineman at you while you're looking the other direction.
How has your conditioning held up to those things? I'm guessing that it hasn't had to.
Bull...your opinion seems to be that the Browns just have BAD LUCK when it come to injuries...you absolutely have a right to your opinion.
But, I've never been one to rely on excuses for poor performances. There are factors and reasons that contribute to results and if we want to solve a problem or improve a situation we have to attempt to figure out WHY the current results are poor.
I played against the best competition from the area and it did include 300 pounders. Playing strong side outside LB at a time when it was legal to cut block and roll block and double team high/low...the rules were lax and anyone playing OLB was at risk of for a knee injury.
The level of competition is in no way comparable to the NFL but when I look at the records established by some of the greatest to ever play in the NFL and I read their accounts of how they stayed healthy during their careers...I can relate, noting my own personal experiences.
I view the Browns injury situation as the #1 obstacle standing in the way of a Browns Super Bowl victory. We have the talent..we have the coaching..it's time that weaknesses with in the support structure be addressed if the franchise goal is to produce a Super Bowl winner !
jmo..mac
How was Nick Chubb having his knee exploded "poor performance?"
He's probably the best conditioned athlete we've had since the return. "Perfect" conditioning won't save you from some things.
Injuries are the biggest obstacle for every team in the NFL. Generally, the healthiest teams are the ones that are winning at the end of the season. Unfortunately, there is no magic recipe for staying healthy. You can do everything right in preparation and still get wrecked by a bad confluence of uncontrollable events.
Nick Chubb, David Njkou, Miles Garrett just to name three players with the bodies of a Geek god and in peak condition. All were injured/battled injuries.
I played against the best competition from the area and it did include 300 pounders. Playing strong side outside LB at a time when it was legal to cut block and roll block and double team high/low...the rules were lax and anyone playing OLB was at risk of for a knee injury.
The level of competition is in no way comparable to the NFL but when I look at the records established by some of the greatest to ever play in the NFL and I read their accounts of how they stayed healthy during their careers...I can relate, noting my own personal experiences.
Are you Izzy Mandelbaum?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
I played against the best competition from the area and it did include 300 pounders. Playing strong side outside LB at a time when it was legal to cut block and roll block and double team high/low...the rules were lax and anyone playing OLB was at risk of for a knee injury.
The level of competition is in no way comparable to the NFL but when I look at the records established by some of the greatest to ever play in the NFL and I read their accounts of how they stayed healthy during their careers...I can relate, noting my own personal experiences.
I've had a couple, so it's late for all of you (considering most of you are 5 hours ahead of me, reminder daylight savings this weekend...so soon to be 6 hours ahead). So my post will be worthless soon and good for us all.
Mac should've went with the old school "injuries happen when you don't go full speed". This way he would've added the Stef/Berry haters to his side. Stef not pushing his team and etc.
Anyways, what makes this thread obsolete for the many reasons you all posted b/c of conditioning is our team closed most games. If you look at our team this past year there were very few games where our team looked gassed in the 4th quarter. Heck, all of us saw how our team willed some victories by pushing the pile in the 4th quarter. That is a testament to conditioning.
It's the offseason for players, they relax, they train wherever they want. They have money, they know what they need to do to be successful. They can go to whatever training complex they choose to get the best offseason training required. Their personalized trainers can focus on whatever they deem is important to better themselves. This isn't a "woe is me", they know what is needed to be season ready and get that next contract.
As for the humor side as lamp and jfanent suggested, YouTube Bill Burr crazy guy at target. This is why I am a smart-a on some subjects. "now there's two of them". Opinions are great when they aren't absurd. If they are absurd, expect some pushback.
You should drink and post more. Not as much as Lamp, but more.
A very good point about conditioning and it's actual bearing on gameday.
I've had the same thoughts on players as well. These are pros with millions of dollars but some act like their held captive in a boys home, heed to their captor's every order, and someone's walking around smacking them with a stick and yelling "AGAIN!!" everytime a rep isn't perfect. I guarantee there have been players that have pulled a hammy and known they were half-assing during warm-ups. At the beginning and end of the day -- it's all on them.
Nine pages in -- pretty much the only thing I've learned as a fact came from prp... if you stretch too much, you actually lose some of your 'twitch'.
The story of the Cleveland Browns 2023 season will be written with injuries as the headline, subheadline and final point. Seemingly every week, the Browns dealt with some starter, mostly on the offensive side of the ball, going down for the year. Starting with OT Jack Conklin and RB Nick Chubb in the first two weeks, Cleveland seemed cursed.
Despite that curse, the Browns made the playoffs with QB Joe Flacco and their fourth and fifth offensive tackles on the field.
Injuries weren’t limited to the offensive side of the ball as later in the season veteran safety Rodney McLeod, LB Anthony Walker Jr. and DT Maurice Hurst were lost. DE Ogbo Okoronkwo was severely limited but returned to the field.
Interestingly, Cleveland’s playoff opponent, the Houston Texans, actually had the most games lost due to injury. The Adjusted Games Lost data takes a number of variables into account:
Adjusted games lost doesn’t just add up total injuries. It accounts for both absent players and those playing at less than 100%, and it specifically measures injuries to expected starters and important situational players rather than little-used backups. As such, AGL estimates the impact of injuries on teams and provides a comparable total that often succinctly explains why teams improved or declined from one year to the next.
Here is a look at the top 10 (read most games lost) in 2023 with the Browns ranked as having the fourth most lost:
It is interesting to note that four of the most injured teams still made the playoffs while a few of the worst teams last year also appear on the list.
Obviously, the data doesn’t take into account the talent of the player missing. Chubb, Conklin, Jedrick Wills, Dawand Jones and Deshaun Watson off the offense is a hugely talented group.
Since you're the expert on injuries, Mac, just curious...
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Atlanta Falcons S&C Coaches.. F-
Where do the Falcons rank in injuries by the metrics you used to rank the Browns so low?
I asked before and you didn't answer. I did my own digging and found that the very first site you mentioned is defunct, gonzo, 404. Now this latest chart you posted doesn't show the whole league.
I'd really like to know where Atlanta falls on this list since they were graded F-. I think that may go along way toward showing us how reactionary we are towards injuries.
There was a link on the page you posted to the original table. I assume we can drop any correlation between player grades and S&C facilities after this.
Whenever my radar goes off, it's usually for a reason.
Atlanta #1 in Offense / #14 in Defense... #5 overall... Yet rated F-
Since you're the expert on injuries, Mac, just curious...
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Atlanta Falcons S&C Coaches.. F-
Where do the Falcons rank in injuries by the metrics you used to rank the Browns so low?
I asked before and you didn't answer. I did my own digging and found that the very first site you mentioned is defunct, gonzo, 404. Now this latest chart you posted doesn't show the whole league.
I'd really like to know where Atlanta falls on this list since they were graded F-. I think that may go along way toward showing us how reactionary we are towards injuries.
Originally Posted by FATE
That's because I quoted myself to bring my original post back up. Don't bother responding, I just found the answer.
Fate...the article I posted was written on Wednesday, March 6, 2024..written by Dawgs By Nature's Producer, Jared Mueller.
If you have any concerns about the information contained in his article, there is a link so you can discuss your issues directly with him.
Concerning your complaint about the graph Mueller used in his article, if you would bother to read the article again, you will see that Mueller addressed that issue within his article. He only intended to show the part of the graph that included the Browns...thus he showed the 10 teams that ranked from 23 to 32 and showed the Browns ranking 29th.
...after all, Mueller's article is about the Browns 2023 injury issues.
Since you're the expert on injuries, Mac, just curious...
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Atlanta Falcons S&C Coaches.. F-
Where do the Falcons rank in injuries by the metrics you used to rank the Browns so low?
I asked before and you didn't answer. I did my own digging and found that the very first site you mentioned is defunct, gonzo, 404. Now this latest chart you posted doesn't show the whole league.
I'd really like to know where Atlanta falls on this list since they were graded F-. I think that may go along way toward showing us how reactionary we are towards injuries.
Originally Posted by FATE
That's because I quoted myself to bring my original post back up. Don't bother responding, I just found the answer.
Fate...the article I posted was written on Wednesday, March 6, 2024..written by Dawgs By Nature's Producer, Jared Mueller.
If you have any concerns about the information contained in his article, there is a link so you can discuss your issues directly with him.
Concerning your complaint about the graph Mueller used in his article, if you would bother to read the article again, you will see that Mueller addressed that issue within his article. He only intended to show the part of the graph that included the Browns...thus he showed the 10 teams that ranked from 23 to 32 and showed the Browns ranking 29th.
...after all, Mueller's article is about the Browns 2023 injury issues.
Hope this helps you to understand the article.
What??
I don't need any 'help' understanding the article. And I'm not going to write a strongly worded letter to DBN.
I've already made a post with the whole table, did you miss that while crafting this latest masterpiece? Pay attention.
Nine pages in -- pretty much the only thing I've learned as a fact came from prp... if you stretch too much, you actually lose some of your 'twitch'.
I found that really interesting too. Never realized that flexibility and explosiveness is a give/take relationship that you have to balance (not me and you, moreso pro athletes... and mac).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
And nothing in that article indicated that "heads should roll" in the S&C department. Maybe you should take a course in sports science to understand what's really going on and how things have changed since the 80's.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
pit...Understand this..we live in a society that is based on performance, competition and results..especially in the area of sports.
...Players are judged according to their performance within their sport and how their performance compares to their competition for the same position.
...Coaches are judged based on their performances and the results their team produces.
...Everyone hired within a football franchise has a role to play and each is responsible for producing satisfactory results established by their franchise's owner. Let one area fail to perform at a satisfactory level and it can affect the goals of the entire franchise.
Let Stefanski's team produce an 0-8 record to start the 2024 season and I have no doubt in my mind that Haslam could fire him mid-season. Everyone hired by Jimmy must meet his standards if they want to remain employed with the Browns. All should be judged based on their job performance as well as the results they produce. Failure to produce the expected results can result in termination.
...pit, that's just the way it is in America...every job I've had in my lifetime...I was judged on the results I produced.
If you want to live in a society that "rewards failure", you might have a tough time adjusting to American standards, as well as the standards the NFL uses to judge "their best". Being the best in the NFL is clearly defined.
IMO, the Browns extreme injury rate might be the determining factor standing in the way of the Browns stated goal of winning the Lombardi Trophy.
According to team captain Myles Garrett, the Browns had a talented enough roster to compete in the Super Bowl in 2024.
The Browns had the coaching talent to compete at a playoff level and possibly at a Super Bowl level.
But surely everyone can understand if that talent is standing on the sidelines unable play due to injuries, it won't matter how talented the Browns are, they will not win a Lombardi Trophy.
Through research we learn more about some of the issues that might be affecting the conditioning, training and strength programs. Through research, it becomes obvious that the issues can be linked all the way to the top...including the performance of the Haslam Group.
The Haslam Group is responsible for providing their employees with the necessary equipment and facilities needed to produce the best trained and conditioned Browns players. Also, these folks at the top, the Haslam Group, they need to conduct their business in a timely manner. The Browns players have been forced to use a CRAMPED, TEMPORARY weight room since July 2020 and only after the results of the NFLPA survey became public, have we seen the franchise react and finally address the core issues contributing to the Browns high injury trend. There must be a since of urgency to address these issues.
If public exposure is what it takes to push the Haslam Group to finally get serious about the issues contributing to the Browns high injury situation, so be it..!
We might need more articles or progress reports written about how the franchise is progressing on the issues related to the Browns' injuries situation.
I'm not about to stop discussing the Browns #1 obstacle standing in the way of a Super Bowl victory.
In 2023/24, the Browns had the talent, they had the coaching and they had the desire to compete for a Lombardi Trophy...
...but a good portion of our talent was on the sidelines watching, on IR.
The Browns are getting closer to achieving their goal...the entire franchise just needs to work harder and smarter to achieve their goal.
So is it the facilities that are the problem or the S&C staff that's the problem? I'm waiting for you to make up your mind. Did you ever take that sports science class so you actually have a clue what's going on with S&C in the 21 century? I didn't think so.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
The Haslam Group is responsible for providing their employees with the necessary equipment and facilities needed to produce the best trained and conditioned Browns players. Also, these folks at the top, the Haslam Group, they need to conduct their business in a timely manner. The Browns players have been forced to use a CRAMPED, TEMPORARY weight room since July 2020 and only after the results of the NFLPA survey became public, have we seen the franchise react and finally address the core issues contributing to the Browns high injury trend. There must be a since of urgency to address these issues.
Well thats a bold face lie Mac. The weight room was moved due to covid (not the Browns choice) The facility in Berea covers 18 acres, 15 other acres have been purchased and 7 more acres are either now owned by the Browns or will be soon. Plans have been in the works since 2019 to expand the facility which will include a new weight room. So you just keep making up your fairy tales Sir.
Through research we learn more about some of the issues that might be affecting the conditioning, training and strength programs. Through research, it becomes obvious that the issues can be linked all the way to the top...including the performance of the Haslam Group.
You have yet to establish ANY link whatsoever between ANY of the injuries that affected this roster and their training. You have yet to cite even a single shred of evidence that even remotely correlates the injury being due to poor/improper conditioning or training.
You Have Nothing.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
The Haslam Group is responsible for providing their employees with the necessary equipment and facilities needed to produce the best trained and conditioned Browns players. Also, these folks at the top, the Haslam Group, they need to conduct their business in a timely manner. The Browns players have been forced to use a CRAMPED, TEMPORARY weight room since July 2020 and only after the results of the NFLPA survey became public, have we seen the franchise react and finally address the core issues contributing to the Browns high injury trend. There must be a since of urgency to address these issues.
Well thats a bold face lie Mac. The weight room was moved due to covid (not the Browns choice) The facility in Berea covers 18 acres, 15 other acres have been purchased and 7 more acres are either now owned by the Browns or will be soon. Plans have been in the works since 2019 to expand the facility which will include a new weight room. So you just keep making up your fairy tales Sir.
GM...you would have to click and read some of those articles I post along with my own comments. One of the most recent articles pointed out the reason why the weight room had to be moved..such as this, from an article I linked to on the previous page and dating back to 7/2020. Below, some of the information I provided to establish a complete understanding of the situation...but the reader must have the ability to click and read..!
Quote
The team’s indoor facility covers 70 yards of playing field but 20 yards of that are dedicated to the weight room because the actual weight room is still the auxiliary locker room to comply with COVID protocols.
Quote
While this is the second year the Browns have dealt with this, the current indoor facility just isn’t sufficient. What was once state of the art in the early 1990’s when it opened has now become obsolete and outgrown, even with a new field installed in 2020 along with a fresh coat of white paint.
The Haslam Sports Group, which owns and operates the Browns, has been acquiring property around the facility for future expansion and it stands to reason the field house is on their ‘to do’ list, hopefully sooner rather than later.
The Haslam Group began work on a new weight room proposal dating back to July, 2020...4 years ago. Now and only after the 2024 NFLPA survey was made public did we witness a 'sense of urgency' to complete what the Haslam Group started in 2020.
I will say this, those who are unable to debate an issue and resort to calling some a liar...it is a direct reflection upon "you and your character".
Maybe it's the fact he knows a lot of what's going on within the Browns organization while you don't. If you haven't paying attention over the years of course you wouldn't know that. I'll ho with what PPE said....
Quote
You have yet to establish ANY link whatsoever between ANY of the injuries that affected this roster and their training. You have yet to cite even a single shred of evidence that even remotely correlates the injury being due to poor/improper conditioning or training.
You Have Nothing.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Through research we learn more about some of the issues that might be affecting the conditioning, training and strength programs. Through research, it becomes obvious that the issues can be linked all the way to the top...including the performance of the Haslam Group.
You have yet to establish ANY link whatsoever between ANY of the injuries that affected this roster and their training. You have yet to cite even a single shred of evidence that even remotely correlates the injury being due to poor/improper conditioning or training.
You Have Nothing.
Just bad luck, right Perp..?
I know for a fact that conditioning is linked to a players health and their ability to perform on a football field.
IMO, prp..you are ignoring "your own personal goals and pursuits ". Prp...do you perform better when you put in the time and effort, training and conditioning to be the best that you can be, in your own sport..?
Or, do you just rely on LUCK, hoping you will accomplish your goals. Turning in your best performance, regardless of the sport you are participating in, is reliant upon the effort you are willing invest to be the best you can be.
I believe "BAD LUCK"..it's just an "easy excuse" for those who are are not willing to face reality and the truth as it relates to one of the main reason the Browns can't achieve their goal.
Discussing the injury trends the Browns are facing...I'm not expecting or insisting on "perfection or zero injuries". I'm hoping for improvement..!
If our players are standing on the sidelines, watching during the team's most important game of the year...there are REASONS contributing to the Brown excessive injury situation...and any claim that it's just BAD LUCK is nothing more than an "poor excuse".
Yes I did mac. Do you think out of the millions of kids in high school and college you're the only one on this board who participated in sports teams?
So now you're crawling further out on your narrowing limb claiming these injuries are because players don't "put forth the effort, training and conditioning to be the best you could be..?"
I actually played both football and basketball. Bulking up before football then losing weight for basketball. So not only was training critical but so was proper diet to make the needed adjustment in weight.
But you see, I'm fully aware that over the decades since that time, advancements in training equipment, methods of training and sports science are far beyond anything I have any experience with. That the NFL and pro sports in general have a much larger budget to work with. That it's a business and as such it's imperative to their bottom line to keep their stars in the lineup because those are the stars the fans want to see. That keeping your players healthy helps your team perform to its full potential and that winning is the one thing you can do that will most improve the bottom line. To think owners do not consider this a top priority would be naive at best. Yet somehow it's your assertion that they pay these guys millions and millions of dollars only to skimp on keeping them in shape. They didn't become billionaires by being so stupid they don't protect their investments.
But you keep resting on your 80's laurels like you are onto some big conspiracy here that the Browns are secretly not training their players well. It would take a leap of epic proportions to buy into such BS.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Pit...how bout you...YOU EVER TRAIN FOR ANYTHING?...
...such as an individual or team sport..?
Did you rely on luck or did you put forth the effort, training and conditioning to be the best you could be..?
Do you suppose Myles Garrett, who obviously works out intensely, but still has had injury issues, is doing it wrong? Do you think he has a year-round, professional regimen workout? Wjy did he get injured?
Nick Chub is a physical freak, he was injured.
I can only assume the others are just lazy?
We have had quite a few out with concussions, What workout do you suggest to eliminate, or even reduce concussions.?
You may be correct with your assumptions, but with you not knowing what their S&C program methodology is, you are still just guessing.
Have you researched what the teams do differently that have the lowest injury rates.
The Bengals seemed to have much less IR time than the Browns the past few years, but I didn't look that up so I could be wrong. How was their players' rating of the Bengals S&C department. They have historically been cheap as an organization in this area.
The Browns injuries could possibly be just a correlation, not a causation. Not sure how you can be so certain, just because you played and worked out decades ago.
Please let this thread die. Please. For the love of dog ..... please.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
So now you're crawling further out on your narrowing limb claiming these injuries are because players don't "put forth the effort, training and conditioning to be the best you could be..?"
I actually played both football and basketball. Bulking up before football then losing weight for basketball. So not only was training critical but so was proper diet to make the needed adjustment in weight.
pit...it sounds like you are agree with me...to be the best that you could be, you relied on some sort of training and conditioning program. If your T/C program sucked, would you have succeeded at achieving your goals?
In high school football one season my thumb was broken in 7 places all the way down to my wrist. So I guess my training and conditioning must have sucked.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
In high school football one season my thumb was broken in 7 places all the way down to my wrist. So I guess my training and conditioning must have sucked.
Shoulda done yoga.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I know it was implied in another thread that we're branching out into looking at the mental side of player evaluation, but that's deferred to cousin Shmuel.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
In high school football one season my thumb was broken in 7 places all the way down to my wrist. So I guess my training and conditioning must have sucked.
Pit...how ironic...ME TOO!
My second year of HS football, in "practice", me playing center with 6 starts under my belt..scrimmaging against the #2s, someone on the offensive line moved early and our idiot middle guard..who was damn good..he pulls an amateur move and jumps on the football that I'm about to snap with my right hand, breaks a bone in my wrist called the navicular bone.
I end up with a cast from the tip of my right thumb to my elbow. I convince the coach that the pain is no issue and though I can no longer snap a football, I can play my outside LB position without a problem. Coach pads the cast before our next game and show the officials...they laugh at us and say NOWAY are they going allow me to play with that cast.
My soph. season was over with 3 games remaining.
As I said in an earlier post..that incident, being force to watch those 3 games from the sidelines...it made me realize that if I was going improve as a player, I had to develop my own offseason workout routine. In my remaining two years, I never watched another game from the sidelines.
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