DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mary Kay reports Jamal Lewis and DA to be re-signed by Brownies

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What we NEED is the Legit #2 opposite Edwards...

Enter Berrian of the Bears or Johnson of the Cards...

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"You guys are always the ones who bring up this quarterback thing," he said. "I don't see anybody saying that Jason Wright should be the starting running back.

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Huh?

You don't hear it because no one on the planet thinks JW should start over JL because it is so ridiculously obvious who is better...

BQ v DA on the other hand makes for interesting debate...or deadbate at times.

I do not know what I would have said there (if I were RAC), but I sure as hell wouldn't have thrown THAT example out there.

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I do not know what I would have said there (if I were RAC), but I sure as hell wouldn't have thrown THAT example out there.

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I think he was only trying to make a point. And that was that the discussion was pointless. Just as his example.

Most of the media in that press conference predicted no better than 5-6 wins. They were in the mid to late stages of running him out of town after the opener.

But the team goes 10-6, won more home games than any Browns team in history, set other milestones that included BE's TD record, Phil Dawson's scoring record and Jamal Lewis's rise up and into the rushing records, yet all the media wanted to talk about was asking what they are going to do with the quarterbacks.

Next week yeah, ask those questions. But the very first presser after the best season since 1994?!

RAC also jovially said, "You guys are killing me."

Personally, I think RAC makes his points very well.

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Isn't Taylor an UFA?

Also ... didn't we make a play for him last time he went FA?

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Us on the board... Heck - we are just Message board fans and carry no weight in the decision process. Very little of it gets back to the Team and if it was important to them they would post on the boards. So I think we are free to speculate all we want regardless of the tone of speculation it won't bear any weight towards the outcome.

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It is the media I question. Not us.

As you said, our opinions are never heard and carry no weight. But the media's questions, opinions and summeries are heard.

In that presser I would have liked to hear a bit about the season itself and maybe some of the "behind the scenes" stories that made it happen. Not the controversies that came out of it. Going 10-6 was a monumental feat even given the schedule. We've had schedules like that before and have done ziltch with them except to further embarrass ourselves.

RAC earned a press conference where he could be basking in the success we attained and we'd all benefit by getting to know the man and the team that much better. Instead, we have to listen to our local media try to conjure up or feed the fire of a quarterback controversy.

To them it's like the season was no big deal. The big deal was who's going to be the quarterback next year. Hell, as you said, at least give RAC and Savage a chance to evaluate the season and the players and coaches first before pressing him for answers right now.

But that's the blood sucking media. I've learned they're never going to change. They only know two positions on a football team. The quarterback, because that's who the camera is on every play and the head coach, because he is the one who talks to them during the week. It's usually hire or fire one of them. Last year it was the head coach. This year it's the quarterback. ::sigh::


You're right, on here we can go nuts about it. We aren't pressing the FO for answers. Why bother when he have all the answers ourselves.

It's a blast talking football. That's what the board is for. While I agree with your thread about giving DA his due and with Vers's plea to stop bashing a Browns player who's done well for us, still, I feel the time is right to let the deadbates begin!

Deadbates, not because either side is stupid, but because, as you said, nothing we say really matters in the real world of decision making. I'm all for letting the FO make the decisions. They really do know best.

But I'm also all for digging into the discussions and taking them as far as they will go in the name of learning something about football. Someone's points concerning something I may vehemently disagree with just may teach me something and help me form a better understanding and a more knowledgable opinion. I don't even have to get into the conversation. Just reading posts will do that.

So I fully expect to learn a lot about the quarterback position through everyone's posts as we gear up for the great QB Deadbate that is forthcoming. I wouldn't miss it for the world.

One good thing about this year's QB deadbate, we'll be discussing two potentially good QB's instead of the best of the worst.


That's proof that the team is growning.

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And yes guys.........the QB controversy has already started. It really annoys me that we could have such a good year, a surprising year, a year of tremendous growth....and instead of enjoying it.... all we get are people trying to stir up controversy.

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Actually, the "controversy" started the moment we drafted Quinn. No matter what Anderson did, there would have been a controversy.

Yes, what the team did was a good story......but it's over. We missed the playoffs. So it's time to look forward.

I think you just want a tool that can slow down the criticism of Anderson So we should just let the FO handle it and sit on our hands? Hell, might as well shut down the site then

Anderson represents the many things to many people. To some, he's a potential quarterback for the next ten years. To others, he's a bargaining chip that can be used to regain the price paid to acquire Quinn.....another potential quarterback for the next ten years. I think it's one of the intriguing storylines of the '08 offseason, and not just for the Browns, but in the entire league. It's a great way to keep our team on the tip of peoples tongues, and right in the line of sight of the public as this is discussed over and over again. Better to have a GOOD QB situation like this than a BAD one like the Vikings and other teams have.

This is a great problem to have. It's stale to say because I've repeated it over and over again, but I think the Browns are going to simply high-tender him and let the cards play out. It's way too early to give him a big new contract, and it's way too premature to simply give him away for nothing. So the best alternative is to slap him with the tender at a BARGAIN-BASEMENT cost of $2.5 mil and go from there. A team wants to give us two first day picks for him, with the option of matching the contract? That's a helluva deal to pass up. Nobody wants to give him that huge contract? Fine. We let him audition for one more season and prove that he can overcome his current weaknesses. If he does prove it, he's worth every penny of a big contract, no harm on waiting a year to do it. It's not like he's willing to settle for a bargain-contract So let's say he gets beaten by Quinn in camp. Hell, problem solved! If he doesn't do much over the year and loses his job to Quinn, then the problem is again solved.

The best way to handle this IMHO is to hedge our bets. The best way to hedge our bet is to high-tender him and let this thing play out. To do anything else is premature.

On a side note, I can't begin to understand how you feel that Anderson isn't innacurate (double-negative anyone? ). For every great throw he makes, he completely whiffs on one. That completion percentage can't be masked by pointing at his yards per attempt. We've all seen too many short throws over the middle that weren't close. I've no problem with a QB who throws the ball away to avoid a pick, but those int's say that wasn't the case with Anderson.

On the flip side, it's not right to say that with those weapons, any QB could succeed. Someone still has to throw the damned ball, hehe. But one also has to wonder what Anderson would have done behind an average line with average receivers. Say on a team like the Jets. He wouldn't have had 29 TD's and his completion percentage would have been closer to 52%, that's for damned sure.

The criticism, as well as the kudo's, are deserved. To hail him as the future is premature, as is hailing him a completely finished product. The problem is that we have a solid blueprint to suggest his accuracy issues aren't going to dramatically improve. That's a problem, and one reason why "selling high" is an option that people are seriously interested in.

This is the most interesting topic that we've had to discuss in years. Nevermind that it's a POSITIVE one.

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he made throws that maybe and I mean maybe one or two other QB's int he league could make .. and then again he made throws that just about NO OTHER QB in the league would have made ...

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One never knows. Consider what they've invested in their current starters and the results:

Grossman: 22nd pick in the draft (uncanny ) 5900 yards, 54% completion percentage, 31 TD's, 33 INT's, and a 70.9 QB rating. He's done in Chicagoland.

Tarvaris Jackson: 64th pick in the draft, 2386 yards, 58%, 11 TD's, 16 INT's, and a 69 rating after his second season. Slowly improving, but clearly not there yet, and highly questionable as to whether or not the team believes in him.

Both organizations feel that they have a championship caliber defense (and they both do when healthy), and are simply lacking the QB play to be playoff contenders.

If you were running the Browns, had pro-bowl players all over the place and felt that a QB was the only thing standing in your way from being a legit Super Bowl contender, would you surrender a 1st round pick for someone like Anderson?

I just might. Do I think Anderson is worth it? No, I don't, but considering the alternatives out there.......

I think someone just might offer a first for Anderson, but I wouldn't bite. I'd make them sign him to an offer sheet and surrender the two first day picks, as that's how much I personally value having either he or Quinn as insurance policies.

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It's stale to say because I've repeated it over and over again, but I think the Browns are going to simply high-tender him and let the cards play out.

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Actually, the "controversy" started the moment we drafted Quinn. No matter what Anderson did, there would have been a controversy.

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I think you just want a tool that can slow down the criticism of Anderson So we should just let the FO handle it and sit on our hands? Hell, might as well shut down the site then

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Nah. You weren't around, but I was saying that DA should be the one cut during preseason. I thought he sucked. I thought Frye was better and I thought it would be better to keep Dorsey around to help Frye and BQ. I was actually a bit upset when they pulled the plug on Charlie so fast. The reason? I had no faith in DA. The guy surprised the hell outta me and if I'm wrong.......I say I'm wrong.


Furthermore, I didn't know what I would hear when I came back here. If the vast majority of board members were acting like he was a future HOFer, my tone would be drastically different than it has been this last week. I think DA is getting some unfair criticism on this board, but by no means do I think he is a certain franchise QB. As it is right now..........the BS meter on the Anti-DA crowd is way higher than the BS meter for the Pro-DA crowd. And as long as that remains true, I'll be slinging some of my own.

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This is a great problem to have. It's stale to say because I've repeated it over and over again, but I think the Browns are going to simply high-tender him and let the cards play out. It's way too early to give him a big new contract, and it's way too premature to simply give him away for nothing.

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I agree. I can add this: It's no guarantee that Anderson will continue to improve and become a franchise QB. There is also no guarantee that BQ will become a franchise QB.

It blows me away that people want put all their chips in one pile this early in the game. Damn, I'd love to play poker w/these guys.

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On a side note, I can't begin to understand how you feel that Anderson isn't innacurate (double-negative anyone? ). For every great throw he makes, he completely whiffs on one. That completion percentage can't be masked by pointing at his yards per attempt. We've all seen too many short throws over the middle that weren't close. I've no problem with a QB who throws the ball away to avoid a pick, but those int's say that wasn't the case with Anderson.

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I don't think he is always accurate, but to listen to people around here, you would think he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. That's baloney.

Toad........I've seen the guy put the ball in places where very QBs could put it. And I'm not just talking about today's QBs, but QBs I have watched over the years. We were playing Seattle and we kept getting penalties. It was 3rd and 18 and DA threw a 20 yd. strike to Joe J between three zone defenders. It was one of the most incredible throws I have ever seen. Later in that game, he zipped another 16 yd. throw on third down that was nearly as amazing. Man, I haven't seen many guys throw that accurately and w/such velocity.

I am NOT saying he is always accurate, but he is not inaccurate. He makes throws that very few QBs can make. I wouldn't even say accuracy is one of his weaknesses.

As I see it..........he has two weaknesses:

1. Decision making. It was awful earlier in the year. I was ready to kill him in the Oakland game. He was staring down receivers and throwing dumb passes. I will say this..............I did see marked improvement in that area as the season went on. I could tell it was a point of emphasis w/him and his coaches. I was impressed that a guy could improve so much during the course of a year. Now...........he obviously regressed against the Bengals, and he still needs to improve in that area, but I wouldn't label him as a guy who can't improve.

2. His footwork is pretty bad at times. Often, he has great mechanics w/his feet.......but there is a catch. He needs a big pocket to step up into. If he gets pressure up the middle, his footwork becomes a mess and this is when he has accuracy problems. You see, I think his accuracy problems stem from poor footwork, not his arm. That is why he can sometimes make incredibly accurate throws and other times miss badly.

This footwork problem is actually his biggest weakness. Btw.........it's the same problem I said Quinn had when I was talking about him before the draft. Poor footwork in the face of pressure is a big problem. I don't know if either can correct the problem.......as it is not an easy one to overcome. All I know is this.........we are going to need to be strong up the middle of our o-line w/either one of these guys!


Now that I have told you about his weaknesses, may I speak to his strengths? Thanks.

1. Arm: Obviously. Everyone knows this, so I'll be short. He can make every throw on the football field and that is rare. Additionally, he make throws that surprise DBs and find a way in to receivers in tight spots. i.e. that throw to Joe.

2. Quick release: You know I love the improved play of the o-line, but DA gets some of the credit. He doesn't hold the ball long and he gets rid of it fairly quickly once he makes his decision. Offensive linemen have stated as such. This is a big one and shouldn't be overlooked.

3. Accuracy: When his feet are set.......he is extremely accurate.

4. Temperment: He is amazingly calm for such an inexperienced guy. This is another thing that plays well w/his teammates. I can tell you this as a fact. The offensive linemen love this guy to death. They are in his corner.


Bottom line: The guy is intriguing. He can do some things that very few QBs will ever be capable of doing. That should not be overlooked. I don't know if his footwork under pressure will ever be good, but I think that can be overcome by having a good o-line. All QBs make some bad throws. On the other hand, he needs to keep progressing w/his decision making to the point where you don't have to worry about him making dumb throws in the big game. Right now, that is the big unknown.... and the reason I wouldn't put all my chips in w/him.

I know this isn't going to be popular, but if it were me running the show....... I would keep both guys. Both have holes in their games and both have the potential to be good. At this point, it is too early to tell for certain w/either one.

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I know this isn't going to be popular, but if it were me running the show....... I would keep both guys. Both have holes in their games and both have the potential to be good. At this point, it is too early to tell for certain w/either one.

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the controversy started after DA began putting up the numbers

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I was speaking in more of a metaphorical sense, in that we'd have had QB discussions (ie: controversy) from the getgo, whether it's Anderson, Quinn, Frye, or someone else. In the bigger picture, I made the comment to note that it's always gonna be an issue until we have a proven winner, and nobody on this team is that, hehe.

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The reason? I had no faith in DA. The guy surprised the hell outta me and if I'm wrong.......I say I'm wrong.

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See, that's why you're a bum, and I'm a God. See, I KNEW Anderson was gonna do what he did (Need I admit to sarcasm? )

On a side note, the one thing I didn't care for was choosing Frye over Anderson, and it wasn't because I thought Anderson stood the better chance, but rather because from what I'd read, it seemed as though we were going with a more vertical offense. Then, after the fact, I learned that Chud wanted Anderson over Frye. His offense, so I thought it should be his call if both guys (or neither guy, as the case may be) did anything to distinguish themselves. I'd had enough of Frye despite keepin' an open mind.

Perhaps the above shows why trusting in the guys upstairs is hard to do Two out of three picked Frye, all three (most likely) picked Quinn, yet when push came to shove, it was Anderson. I like to trust the pro's, but they don't get'em right all the time either, hehe.

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This footwork problem is actually his biggest weakness.

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I agree with the vast majority of the rest, but wanted to make one last comment regarding the above.

I may be putting my foot in my mouth here, but I think you'd agree when I say that he's fine (ie: accurate and decisive) when his primary is open and he can throw on time. It's when he loses that timing that his accuracy goes to Hell. As you've noted, it's about footwork. I always used to get bent when people would say Manning (you know...the GOOD one ) had "happy feet" when to me, all he really did was make sure that he was in a great throwing position no matter where he was looking. Those "happy feet" allowed him to throw on target no matter where his reads and decisions led him. Anderson is fine when he drops and gets the ball out on time, but ask him to change his read or move, and yeah, he becomes a waste. I just don't know that he can improve those 17's of his. Then there's his reads. Is his mind quick enough to catch up? I don't know that either, but he never was able to do it in college.

I still get the impression that as long as his primary is there he's great. Teams are also asking for trouble when they allow him to identify 1-1 coverages. But take those away, make him think and change his throws.....he's a liability.

I don't think anyone can argue the great throws he's made. I think the question is does he have it between the ears to fix the issues that make him the guy we saw in the second half of the season. I really hate to use Kosar as any kind of example for obvious reasons, but he had the rare ability to put the ball on the right spot despite the worst feet since Herman Munster. Anderson needs to be perfect with his mechanics, and I wonder how well he can do that with his size. In that sense, he reminds me of Dan McGuire. Remember him? Brady made the transformation, but I don't know that Anderson can.

I'm starting to ramble (what else is new?) I think asking a 1st AND a 3rd is a steep price, but it's the right call to make. If Anderson proves us wrong yet again, then Savage can give him that big deal and look to trade Quinn in '09. If not, Quinn, entering his 3rd year, is primed to take over. If he flops, well, it won't be because he was rushed to the field.

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I listened to two sports talk radio shows here over the last two days .. one local and one national .. they both talked about 2nd OR 3rd being the best we could hope for .. DA's value in cities outside of C-Town is alot less than U guys think it is ..

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AHH Talk shows Would those be two of the talk shows that said we would be lucky to win four games this year You mean those shows where blowhards just like to hear themselves talk.

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and thats my opinion ... one I'm entitled to just as much as U are yours

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fact is mine is right alot more than yours

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*Looking around for a giant Pin so I can let some air out of that massive head*

Thats your opinion, and your entitled to it, but it's sure not a fact bro.

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I would keep both guys. Both have holes in their games and both have the potential to be good. At this point, it is too early to tell for certain w/either one.

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It's like a rewind........change Couch/Holcomb and insert Anderson/Quinn.....

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the controversy started after DA began putting up the numbers


I was speaking in more of a metaphorical sense, in that we'd have had QB discussions (ie: controversy) from the getgo, whether it's Anderson, Quinn, Frye, or someone else. In the bigger picture, I made the comment to note that it's always gonna be an issue until we have a proven winner, and nobody on this team is that, hehe.

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I was just kidding around, but I forgot one of these ---

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On a side note, the one thing I didn't care for was choosing Frye over Anderson, and it wasn't because I thought Anderson stood the better chance, but rather because from what I'd read, it seemed as though we were going with a more vertical offense. Then, after the fact, I learned that Chud wanted Anderson over Frye. His offense, so I thought it should be his call if both guys (or neither guy, as the case may be) did anything to distinguish themselves. I'd had enough of Frye despite keepin' an open mind.

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I still get the impression that as long as his primary is there he's great. Teams are also asking for trouble when they allow him to identify 1-1 coverages. But take those away, make him think and change his throws.....he's a liability.

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I thought he improved on that as the season went on, but again struggled w/it a bit late in the season. I remember thinking about how much he had improved in that area.....[it was during that stretch when we played Seattle and St. Louis].....and I was pretty amazed by his growth in that department. That was kinda what I was referring to when I talked about his decision making in my previous post.

I agree w/you that he still needs to improve in this area. It's a concern. We may disagree on whether he can keep improving or not.

On a sidenote of my own: You know, footwork is so key in sports. If you see a guy w/poor footwork, then you are seeing a guy who is struggling. Football, basketball, baseball, boxing, etc............you need good footwork.

DA has pretty good footwork for the most part. There are times however, like when he gets pressure right up the middle, that he allows his feet to get too close together. He also opens up the left shoulder, which prevents him from throwing over the top. That leads to him slinging the ball, or even throwing it like a dart. This is when he really struggles w/his accuracy. But.......one thing for sure.....it all starts w/pressure that comes up the middle, which leads to his feet not being properly set.

When DA has time, he actually has pretty good footwork. His mechanics are actually very sound. He gets a nice foundation w/his feet, holds the ball well, and really throws it over the top. I think it's one of the reasons people say his arm is so strong. Proper mechanics add velocity. But, when his mechanics go to hell.....so does his accuracy.

Interestingly enough......that was one of my biggest concerns on Quinn when he was coming out of college. I broke him down in one of Diam's thread. Most of us have heard that he sometimes struggled w/accuracy. Yet, when you would watch him, there were times when he was extremely accurate.

I noticed the same thing about BQ then that I did w/DA this year. Give them plenty of room and their mechanics are very good. Bring pressure right up the middle and take away their ability to step up.....then their mechanics break down. While DA gets his feet too close together..........BQ's problem is that he gets too much weight on his back foot. This naturally causes the ball too sail or go high. He will sometimes try to overcompensate w/his arm and actually throw the ball right into the ground. And BQs arm is not as strong as DAs, so it is imperative that his mechanics are sound.

All I know is this..........we better make sure the middle of our line stays strong. We can't allow a lot of inside pressure w/either of these QBs. Right now........our line is damn good, but I really hope that Savage does not neglect the OL in the draft. I would like to see a 3rd or 4th rounder this year---probably the 4th---and another 1st day pick the following year.

Speaking of the offensive line, how about Joe? Is the guy everything we thought he would be and more? He was even better than I thought and I talked him up pretty hard. Also, Steinbach is a more complete LG than I thought he was. I knew he was good, but I didn't realize that he was as good as he is in every area. Amazing what good offensive line play will do for an offense, eh?

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It's all people are talking about........the media and people on the message boards.

And none of you know anything for sure. Let the guys in charge handle it!

You comprehend that, amigo?

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So if we aren't going to talk about stuff we don't know about for sure... and we're going to let the guys in charge handle it, then what are we going to talk about?

We can't talk about resigning Jamal.. we can't talk about draft picks.... we can't talk about defensive upgrades...

So, what do you think of Hillary?