DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum A New Course

You just described what it looks like when someone hires experts to run a business they are not an expert in running. Then they override the experts they hired thinking they know better. Like going to the doctor and being given blood pressure medication and refusing to take it because you don't think you need it. We are witnessing what a football stroke looks like.

The Jimmy isn't the only one with the unlimited checkbook throughout years apon years of the NFL. Why hasn't any Owner/GM done this strategy and made it work? Plenty of teams throughout the years have tried to go all in, only to have to trade/release players b/c of being poorly managed. Saints, Rams, etc. He deserves a lot of credit for that. However....I do agree either evaluations or injuries have led to some definite misses. I give him credit for how it is set up, they still have some flexibility. However, I'm not sticking up for him on some of the evaluations.

Watson - 5 year contract and $230M guaranteed
Berry - 5 year contract guaranteed money
Stefanski - 5 year contract guaranteed money

The pattern is bad decision making.

2020 - mostly Dorsey’s team.
2021 - underachieved
2022 - underachieved
2023 - overachieved in the regular season but failed miserably in the playoffs.

Why give two mediocre guys a 5 year extension?
The best option would be to wait until the 2024 season is over or maybe…. a one plus one year contract would be a more sensible option based on the last four seasons results.

Where’s the logic?

The one big difference is that neither the HC or GM's salaries count against the cap. Luckily their salaries do not impact the ability to address the roster.

That’s the positive thing.

Especially Berry is a classic underachiever who hasn’t shown anything noteworthy that should reward a five year contract extension, in fact the opposite.

The Cleveland Browns is unfortunately one of the least attractive organizations in the league because of their historically bad result and constantly bad leadership.
To change this we need a General Manager with proper football knowledge as his main strength that has the ability to regularly punch above his weight.

1 playoff win in 12 years under Hasben
Prosecution rests

Hiring a new GM and HC guarantees what, and repeating the same process Browns owners have done since 1999 hoping to get lucky? Based on what you, Steve, and others have harped on, cap hell and dysfunctional owner, no experienced GM or HC will take the job. Browns would hire rookies again.

Or should we stick with the Browns' most winning combination of the last twenty years, hoping it gets better?


If you had to bet $100, what option above would you feel most confident would win the bet?

If you look at the records of the men who have been fired since 1999 other than the fact that an argument could be made for Dorsey, none of our GM's or HC's have gone on to do much anywhere else at those respective positions. I don't see where the odds would favor either of the options you pointed out.

Exactly!

All this "blow it up" or "stay put" in either case would be blind luck.

I don't disagree with you. And it still surprises me that people act like there's a choice between Berry and Stefanksi. The only choice you have as it pertains to the two remaining with the Browns is to fire Stefanski and keep Berry which I think would be a rather silly move. Because if you fire Berry, Stefanski will end up going as well. Every new GM with any real qualifications appoints their own HC. If they find a GM who will work with Stefanski he would obviously be someone who doesn't have the proper background to command respect. And anyone who thinks that would be a positive move is only fooling themselves.

Just curious.... How much time do you feel is reasonable to give Berry to see if "he can improve"?

Berry was hired as the GM in Jan. 2020. How much longer do you feel a trial period is justified?

Bone, Watson is a two-year issue. Regroup draft a QB and play out the two years.

I'm fine with Jameis. He fits the scheme better and can get the Browns to the playoffs. Superbowl? I'm not filling it!

My point is it is not a major disaster. It will buy time to develop a new quarterback. Who knows? Maybe they think a previously drafted quarterback will work. The Colts Richardson?

While I hope we draft a QB, I don't want to put a rookie out there behind our current Oline. I think our OT positions need significant investment, and I don't see how that happens via FA with our current salary cap situation.

FA QB list does NOT look pretty. Ceiling is made up of the Flacco's and Brisset's of the NFL.

I think trading for a legit starter QB is a pipe dream.

We tried that about 30 months ago. Didn’t work, did it?

I’m okay rolling with Jameis next year, but yet drafting a QB we really like. All depends though, on how high we pick in the draft obviously, and a hundred other things.

Haslam isn’t firing KS or Berry in the off-season. Might as well forget that notion.

Every QB, except Watson, under Stefanski has proven to be above average. Browns are designed to win with above-average quarterback play.

I assume the goal is to obtain a quarterback that can do more than get them into the playoffs. This was what Watson was supposed to deliver.

Watson was the only "non-Stefanski" style quarterback. Was Watson's failure Stefanski's fault?

Stefanski hired Dorsey to broaden or strengthen his offensive knowledge. Yes, it didn't help Watson, but it will certainly expand Kevin's scope when searching for a new quarterback.

I see nothing but positives from this season. Now the Browns need a quarterback with the right chemistry to elevate what Stefanski provides.

It is exactly what Reid and Mahomes built together. I don't believe Mahomes is the quarterback he is without Reid. I can argue the same for Bradey. Both have taken their game to a new level with the help of their coaches and not because of their coaches.

Stefanski's level of offensive knowledge is approaching what Reid developed before arriving in Kansas City. It is not scheme-specific but an overall offensive strategy.

Now all Kevin needs is a quarterback with Jacoby Brissett's skill and the athleticism of DeShawn Watson.

You can add Daniel Jones to the list. I am not saying they will work out someplace else, but there is some history in recent years of top QB draft picks moving on and changing the trajectory of their careers. I wouldn't mind if we took a swing at one of those guys, bring them in for the remainder of the season, the full off-season, camp, and see where it leads.

In the case of Jones, it wouldn't even cost a draft pick. Just a bit of money and a roster spot for the remaining games. It's worth a shot IMO.

Agree.

I saw that the Giants waved Jones.

Jones does add to the run game.

I am curious about the disconnect between Daboll and Jones. Jones looked good against the Browns and played well at the beginning of the season.

Jones seemed to be a good fit in Daboll's offense.

Yeah Jones is awesome, if you discount his 3-13 record since getting a second contract. INT machine and not an intelligent quarterback.

Glad Chubb is back as hope that they can win going forward! Really need Nick C!!

I love your username JPPT.

The original JPP was French soccer player Jean Pierre Papin. In his prime he played for Olympique Marseille and Milan.

Along with MJ23 and me he was born in 1963.
One of the best decades ever.

I don't pay attention to record because the Giants suck.

Jones is worth a look. He has talent that just didn't work in NY. Darnold was washed up too....Geoff was nearing that point as well. A new team and fresh perspective is in some cases just what the Dr. ordered.

Chubb is another we need to think about replacing. Not next year I hope, but it will be soon enough. If nothing else we need someone to push Ford for the top back-up role and eventual starter.

I am not one who thinks you need to pick a back all that early in the draft but you can't wait until 15 backs have been selected. You have to wait to see how the board starts to fall, then you make your call.

I do agree with you regarding new fresh perspectives for QBs, but I just don't think Jones' style of play would suit our style of offense very well.

I'm actually surprised Daboll couldn't get much out of him, as his style of offense should - on paper - suit Jones more, which I imagine was part of the reason Daboll was hired in the first place.

I'm confused by what you mean by this. Are you saying they played above-average with KS, or that they were all above average QBs? I believe Brissett has been benched for a rookie (albeit, a highly-drafted one), and Flacco has also already been benched after coming in mid-season.

I understand that people see potential in DTR, but so far results have been below average.

I agree w/the train of thought to let KS hand pick and develop his own QB. Whether that's draft or FA or bridge or whatever. Just let him find the guy that will fit his system (and we've seen average QBs succeed in his system)

I read it as he got the most out of those QBs and the offense was "good enough" to win with.

Its also simply not true, guys like flacco, brissett and even Winston.. All played to mean under KS, he didn't have some magic with them, a PA offense is always going to be QB friendly, especially when you have a good back. If he was some QB whisperer, how come he couldn't get more out of Baker? Or alteast get Watson in the ballpark of his past success. I attribute success more to a QB friendly offense. KS hasn't developed a single player we've brought in, on the contrary, we had several FA that get worse when coming here. Thats not a call to replace KS, just an observation. He's not some QB guru. Baker got better after leaving here and working with better coaching and talent. We should have kept him and surrounded him with good WR and TE. All the others were stop gaps and journeyman. before during and after coming here.

Without Mayfield full of stuffing below 500.

Live in NY area and all my married family are giants fans. No one shed too many tears with the release of Jones but I do think he might be a slightly better than average
Qb IF and only if you can give him a top tier offensive line. His problem is he rattles and he’s never been behind even a halfway decent OL.

He could end up taking a Cousin’s like career path if he could settle in somewhere and gain some rhythm and confidence over a few years. That might be optimistic but he’s super low drama and his teammates like him. He just can’t seem to bust thru his ceiling, though he sometimes looks so close. And he lays a big ol’ egg like every 3rd game. Usually the same game he gets sacked like 6 times but still. But then he looks ok to good-ish for the other games.

Honestly he’ll probably hang around the league as a pretty good backup and nothing more for a decade. I could totally see us going with him as a low drama stop gap but I doubt the results would be better than Winston as long as our OL is a sieve. Neither are franchise guys. Both are stop gap.

j/c

Why you go for Daniel Jones:

- the Giants are a mess, three of their former players are playing at a high level after leaving
- see if you can unlock any potential out of him
- he becomes a FA at the end of the year if you don't resign him. Receive comp pick for future draft

Why you don't go for Daniel Jones:

- the money used to sign DJ takes away from the rollover cap money for next year, which helps with cap flexibility (though he’s probably signing for league minimum)
- You have Winston, is DJ really an upgrade and worth using rollover cap money?
- more QB changes = more possible inconsistent offense

My opinion:
Not worth it. A waste of money for various reasons
- using future rolled-over cap money on someone that will probably not pan out
- roster plans, at this point in time, Jameis would be in line for a 2 year extension as a bridge QB. He is your 2025 starting QB. Bringing in someone now, just causes unneeded chaos. Play the year out and evaluate. He deserves an extension, do it. If not, move on.

The offense needs some consistency to evaluate offseason roster movement. One example for that: We went through a portion of the season thinking all our WRs were bad signings/waste. Winston starts throwing the ball around and we might actually have something with Tillman, Jeudy's extension is beginning to look like a good move, and Moore is actually contributing to the offense.

We have Winston for this year. We don't for next season. We will have to sign him.

I think Jones offers more upside based on age, and we can probably sign him to a 2 year contract for cheaper money than we will Winston.

Winston is looking for a last contract. Jones is looking for a short contract to get to another big contract.

I do think he got slightly more out of Brissett than anyone was expecting. If what we saw was the average from Flacco, then he shouldn't have been waiting by the phone for us to call.

Also, if that offense is such a cheat code, then everyone w/o a FQB would be running it. I do agree with you that the shine has worn off on KS being some kind of miracle worker... but he's done his best work and way overachieved when he's had limited QB talent. Brissett did have Chubb, but Flacco didn't.

I don't want to go too far down this already-worn rabbit hole, but Watson is the barrier to Watson's success. We've all seen the data available there now. The guy just sucks. I'd have to speculate, but I think the guy is just shot mentally after everything that happened, and lacks the resiliency to move on. He consistently doesn't see very open receivers and looks for the rush. He was done by the time he got here, IMO.

He had a multiple 4000 yard qb
His lies hooper called him out cut
Bryant gone
Cooper called us out
Now thornhill
They had a 4000 yard qb on there roster we are not extending him
We expect a qb throwing Higgins and a injured Landry to beat beat Mahomes
And Tyree.