DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Stefanski and Berry

Let's consider the process that transpired for us to get Watson:

The 1st thing to happen is that someone had to have the idea to go get Watson. Who?
KS? Doubtful
Haslam? perhaps he said "Hey what about Watson", but at this point I can't see him saying "we absolutely have to get Watson"
Berry? Most likely. But ifHAslams idea he could have cut it off here

Then what happens? People need to sign off.
Haslam has to say that he is okay with the idea of bringing Watson and his baggage in
KS has to say, yes Watson will thrive in the offense

We have to negotiate the trade parameters - remember the Texans had minimum requirements
So Berry had to be okay with it and Haslam had to be okay with it.
KS likely not involved

Watson proceeds to eliminate us
At this point someone had to say "do whatever it takes to get Watson"
This was most likely Haslam.
Berry makes the ridiculous contract offer.
Berry could have talked Haslam off the ledge
He could have not offered the insane contract

Seems to me that Berry is by far most responsible for this debacle.

Looking at things from this standpoint, I can't see how Berry keeps his job.
The only reprieve he might have is if at some point Haslam says get Watson or you are fired.

Also a part of it is who is it that decided we couldn't win with Baker(despite us winning with him) I have to believe that KS isn't an innocent bystander here. At some point Haslam or Berry had to get KS opinion if you believe all the kumbaya we make decisions as a team mantra they love.. This is where I think having an inexperienced GM and one that seems to struggle at talent evaluation hurts us. A seasoned GM that has spent his career in talent evaluation either as a GM or scout, would be able to know if its the QB holding the team back, or the inexperienced HC holding the team back. Someone that would tell KS, stick with him and work with him, he is going to get better and he's got the tools. As opposed to taking a huge risk on a guy like watson, Watson was an elite QB at houston, no debating that, but he also quit on his team, didn't play for a year, was going to be suspended guaranteed regardless of the outcome of the cases, then the sheer volume of cases against him, thats just not a situation you throw 6 draft picks after. I'd venture to say even if watson was playing at his Houston level, he wouldn't be worth that much over Baker. For me, the only reason Berry survives is if Haslam pulled the strings to get watson at all costs after his ego wouldn't let him be turned down by watson at first. Beyond that, there is nothing Berry has done that entitles him to any more time.

I am by no means trying to absolve KS from responsibility.
I am sure he had multiple opportunities to express disagreement with the move
I think if he had , then the deal doesn't get made.
So in my mind he was totally on board.
I just don't think he was the one driving hte ship.

I guess maybe he was the one saying we have to get this guy.
He could have been the one in haslams ear pushing for DW

They almost have tobring him back as the starter. They still owe him a TON of money .... and we can't take the almost $150M cap hit it would create to dump him next year. We are stuck with him, probably for at least next year .... and I am not sure how we handle the $72M cap hit both next year and the year after.

This was a horrible trade made even worse by Berry's cap manipulations.

Considering in Baker's last "healthy season" here we went to the playoffs I don't think either of them was holding the other one back.

And I guess maybe I could have been Mr. Universe in 2023 but I wasn't.

I believe the bulk of the blame for DW falls to Berry.
I can't say how much Haslam or KS contributed

Were you runner-up?

I don't know because they didn't tell me.

We pay him the same amount of money whether he starts or a better Qb plays and DW sits the bench
The cap hit is the same whether he plays or is inactive

Only difference is the cap hit if we cut or trade him

I never understood playing a inferior guy because he is paid more

What the situation does do is limit the ability to pay a good QB to start. The need is greater than the supply in regards to quality NFL QB's so to get one costs a premium. You can only designate a certain percentage of your cap space to one position. Even the QB position. The trick will be finding a superior QB that will fit in the current budget. That's no small feat to accomplish.

True, but whether we do or do not start DW has no impact on it

That's certainly true. Now the only issue is to find a decent QB at a bargain basement price.

I can only speak for myself and keep it brief because I am talking to my phone. Without doubt. I think Berry has failed, he's hit some draught picks and he's hit on some trades but overall and including the Watson trade. Trade, it's an f. I do not want Berry in charge of taking the team forward from here, the roster is remarkably lacking in depth all over the field, that's on. Berry.

Ks has seemingly done well when faced with adversity but what troubles Me is the number of times he has failed or fallen flat when the situation was in his favour, or the team was expected to win.

For me, it's not about how good we will be next year or if we set the team back by making changes, it's about whether we have the right people in place to succeed for me, both Berry and KS and not the right people.

I don't know how realistic it is to hand everything over to Mike Vrabel, but if he is available it seems like he would be a remarkably qualified and able individual to take the reins..... I wouldn't look that gift horse in the mouth. Do it!

I'm with you on that, thats what I'm saying.. who decided Baker wasn't the guy, if it was KS, then someone with better talent evaluation would have said, no, just give him time. Won't even go into again paying Keenum the most ever for a backup QB and then don't play him when Baker was obviously hurt. What a failure on both KS and Berry there.

Bottom line its a consistency game, we do not have that and have not had that under this regime. Bad part is, given our cap, roster age and the players we have, the consistency in the quality of play is probably going to be trending downwards

While there is an element of truth to this - Baker also owns some of this dynamic. He was immature and there was friction that developed between KS and Baker. You can argue that a HC should be able to smooth those tensions in order to get the best of his talent - keep what you have instead of having to blow a huge amout of draft capital to find what you think is a better replacement - but Baker was immature and head strong and definately at that time his ego and bull headedness was an issue. We've talked elsewhere about how his experience of bumping to different teams on his way to his current situation in Tampa was good for him and has helped make him a better team mate and QB, so who knows what happens if he stays?

Again boiling it down to basics - I'll judge Bery on the state of the roster, the talent and depth on the roster ... and it is woeful. Bottom 4 or 5 in the NFL? There is just no chance I would keep him.

KS has done well when not expected to - he has failed when given high expectations. Cute play calls, uninspiring and flat performances in crunch games ... not to mention years and years of claiming to take responsibility for poor performances but nothing ever changes. A (seemingly) culture of lack of accountability amonf the players. The year we had a healthy Baker a stud OL, Chubb in his prime, Jarvis and other WR's who performed well enough even if none were stars ... that should have been a spring board to being 'very good' .... and it never happened. Living through the Joe Woods D with MG, Ward, Newsome and others all chronically under performing and no changes or adjustment. . . . As I said above, I don't believe he's the guy. Maybe he's learned enough here to be better somewhere else a bit like Baker? idk. But for me he would be gone too.

The WATSON DEBACLE is OBJ’s and his Daddy’s fault, period. That’s why Baker had to go, that’s why they overreached and went all in on DW. And the fans that jumped on that bandwagon, they bear a HUGE part of the responsibility. I don’t care what anybody says, these owners do crazy crap when they feel under pressure. And the karma of that BS is why DW withered on the vine. Prove me wrong.

Just a few thoughts....

I agree with most that if one person was the driving force behind getting Watson, it would be the GM. That is his job. I don't see Jimmy or Kevin as the person.

Moving on from Baker had to be done. There was enough friction between Kevin and Baker that it became toxic. I think Baker caused most of that friction.

Obviously Jimmy had to OK the deal, he is the money man. Once the GM and coach were urging for the team to sign Watson, he went with his GM and coach and OK'd one of the worst deals in sports history. After all, it was pretty much accepted that this was our window of opportunity.

There was some pushback on Watson because of the off field stuff, but I don't recall anyone, anywhere, saying Watson was going to flop as badly as he has as a player. That wasn't even in the thought process.

We really can't cut the guy until after next season, so I don't blame anyone for saying he is still in the mix. See what happens in camp, then just put the guy on the shelf, tell him he doesn't need to show up anymore and we play next season more of less minus a roster slot since we would still need to keep him on the roster until the following June.

I might not agree with the 5 year minimum you mention, but we do need some things to happen.

Obviously we need to find an NFL decent QB. I have never felt you needed a top 5 QB in the league. A good QB can get you there.

We do need to see Zinter ready to play and have to hope Wypler is some kind of player at center.

It would have been impossible to predict just how woeful DW has been.

There were plenty of posters and fans who questioned how good his play actually was in HOU in light of what they acheived and in light of him having one of/the best WR in the NFL on the roster at the time.... I know whenever I questioned what his ability was going to be in light of a year off, an unknown suspension period (many assumed it was to be 6 weeks), and what he actually acheived in HOU - or to suggest/question that he wasn't a team player by refusing to play for a year for his team/teammates ... it was dismissed and ridiculed.

The Watson trade is proof that a team cannot short cut its way
To finding a franchise QB.
Anyone that knows anything about QBing should have
Seen Watson wasn't that good in Houston.
Yeah he put up good fantasy QB numbers. But he wasn't a winner.
He couldn't galvanize a roster.
But the Haslams and Berry failed to look beyond Watsons stats
In Houston. Maybe Haslam and Woody Johnson should stop
Researching Madden player ratings
Kinda funny how Browns fans were reserving SB seats for the
Browns when the DW trade was made
Then the denial kicked in when some said it was the worst trade
In recent memory

What I think a lot of people underestimated was desire. Watson had no desire to come here. He actually refused to be traded here until they backed up the brinks truck. The way the entire incident played out it was obvious he never wanted to be in Cleveland to begin with. When an athlete doesn't have his heart in it we see what the outcome is. It was hard to see so many fans be so welcoming to a guy who made it plain he never wanted to come to Cleveland to begin with.

Regarding the Baker part of all this...

Baker himself has said recently that he had to get smacked upside the head real good in order to get his act together. I believe he only recently (the off-season after he got acquired by TB?) got himself a QB coach and got a big-boy off-season program up and running.

I'm not at all trying to say his end here was his fault. I'm just saying the argument that if we had just kept him here then he'd be as good as he is in TB doesn't really hold water.

We gotta just go and poach someone from GB. The way they move from one fQB to another is ridiculous.

We should rebuild our roster as best we can. Acquire talent and get younger. Our QB position is obviously very bad and I don’t know how we can get a viable starter there in our current situation. Build the roster and then move on and find a QB. Just my opinion.

what about a guy like Malik Willis, He's still young, stuck behind Love, has shown flashes . Could probably get for a later round pick and he's on a cheap contract.

While we plan and scheme and theorize while we endlessly re-hash Baker endlessly, I do not want to lose track of my single myopic focus going forward: I do not want to see Watson take another snap for us. Get him out of town. This is the most crucial corner we need to turn and I believe it is the biggest hurdle before us going forward. There are others; this first. No curiosity left about rust, rhythm, or any other rationalization. Can't build around rot, especially this hot mess.

Basically my take as well. We have a lot of problems we need to address. The OL needs a rebuild, we probably need a new RB & TE, we need pieces across the defense. We got stuff to do.

We were a QB away but this year the wheels fell off completely and revealed a bunch of stuff that needs fixing and now that the QB position won’t be fixed for at least 2 years means other contracts are going to expire and other players in the 27-30yr old range will need to be reassessed moving forward. We basically forced ourselves into a full rebuild with the way the timeline and cap situation works with the DW debacle.

As far as releasing DW, as far as I know that’s not going to happen. I read that it costs us more to cut him than to keep him next year. Like, a lot! I don’t know about the year after that but I think we still keep like 30m on the books the last year if we cut him. I think like it or not he’s getting another chance next year.

I hate it. I also want to wash hands asap. But we did this to ourselves. If this makes me a bad browns fan so be it but I just don’t want to see DW succeed at all. I want that guy to fail hard at football forever at this point. He doesn’t care about Cleveland. He doesn’t care about anything but himself and money as tools around Miami on his boat, posting instas with his girlfriend while his team is playing out the string. Phooey to him. I hate to say it but I want him to start next year and just get sacked over and over and over again, set the sack record and keep getting sacked until he never plays another snap for anyone ever again. I hate that it’s my browns that it’s also happening to but I’m just so over that freaking toxic waste dump of a human.

All I hope is that we, the browns, learn and move the hell on when the time comes. Just be ready to move on properly as soon as the money makes sense.

The Browns need to set a standard and build a culture, and I’m not kidding.

The first step if it’s legally possible would be to demand Watson to make his rehab and been part of team meetings at Berea every Tuesday to Friday between 07.30 to 16.30h.
On match days his job is to warm the bench, give water, energy bars and when necessary polish our starting QBs helmet.

That’s the least he can do for $230m.

Seeing him in Florida drinking Margaritas and earning a fortune makes my blood boil. Set some phekking standard and let everybody inside Berea know that nothings comes for free.

My next step would be to fire Andrew Berry 5 minutes after the season has ended. Let UPI deliver the news directly on a sliver plate when he sits in his VIP seat and give him also a cab voucher so he can leave the stadium and the Browns asap.

I saw some article about Myles saying he wasn't interested in staying here to go through a rebuild. It's late, I am not going to go back and look for it to link, you can find it.

Getting old presents some sleep issues.

Myles Garrett Sends Bold Message To Cleveland Browns

The Browns star edge rusher expects to see the team's offseason plans before determining what's best for his future

On the other side of three meaningless regular season, an offseason of major questions awaits the Cleveland Browns.

That's not lost on star pass rusher Myles Garrett, who made it known last week that he wants to remain with the franchise for his entire career. And while that's still the case one week later, Garrett used his weekly press conference to send a strong message to the Browns brass as they start making plans for the future.

"First of all I want to win. And I want the Browns to be able to put me, and us in position to win," asserted the reigning Defensive Player of the Year. "And I'm not trying to rebuild, I'm trying to win right now. And I want that to be apparent when the season is over and we have those discussions, I want them to be able to illuminate that for me, illustrate that to me so that can be something I can see in the near future, because that's all we want to do."



Whatever general manager Andrew Berry has planned this offseason, his most pressing question centers around the future at quarterback. The Deshaun Watson experiment was derailed yet again, when the embattled QB suffered another season-ending injury. As he spends the offseason rehabbing from an Achilles tear, his status as Cleveland's No. 1 QB is clouded in uncertainty.

Jameis Winston admirably provided a spark for the Browns over the last seven games, taking the offense to a different gear than Watson did int he first seven. His continued propensity to turn the ball over, however, led to his benching this week in favor of Dorian-Thompson Robinson. The 2023 fifth-round pick now gets his chance to audition for the team's starting QB job.

Due to the nature of his contract, Watson is probably back on the roster in some capacity next season. Whether that be as a starter or a backup is very much a mystery to everyone. Whatever that QB room looks like next year, Garrett wants to see the plan.

"As uncertain as it is on the outside looking in, it's uncertain for us as well," admitted Garrett. "So whether DTR is the solution or someone else is, it's gotta be drawn out. There's gotta be a plan of action and just gotta know where things are going."

If Garrett doesn't get that plan from Berry and head coach Kevin Stefanski, or if the organization decides to make sweeping changes with team brass, the 28-year-old could see a future where he's in a different uniform.

"It's a possibility," said Garrett. "But I wanna be a Cleveland Brown, I wanna play here, play my career here. But if we choose to do a rebuild, it's two or three or four years out. I wanna be able to compete and play at a high level, play meaningful games and be playing past January."

That doesn't mean that's the future Garrett wants. His loyalties remain with the Browns, who drafted him No. 1 overall in 2017. It all just comes down to the franchise presenting him with a vision for the future, and one that prioritizes winning.

"I'm gonna stay loyal to a team that showed loyalty to me and faith in my by drafting me," he said. "But we have to do, at the end of the day, what's best for us. So if we have that alignment where this is still something that's still possible in the near future: winning, going deep in the playoffs, putting a great defense out there, having a time of possession running game offense, getting all the guys back. I think that would really keep my mind at rest, keep me settled and not just mine, a lot of the guys on the defense, the d-line, around the team."

Garrett may be the only player with the cache to put pressure on the organization like he did on Friday. When he talks, people tend to listen. Whether or not those in charge of course correcting the franchise after a disastrous season listen this time around will play out in the months to come.

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/news/myles-garrett-sends-bold-message-to-cleveland-browns

I can't say I blame him.

In years past, the Browns fanbase would want any player run out of town for saying something like this. Now, they see Myles' point. I can't blame him either. He's turned out to be exactly what we wanted and more when we drafted him.

I've always attributed that to the fact that fans only see the game from a fans perspective. Somehow they think blind loyalty is a badge of honor. It's all about tradition to them. Anyone that calls into question such loyalty then becomes the villain. It's a sport to them. I mean I get that.

But the fact is for every employee of the NFL from the concession guys to the players, from the coaching staff to the training staff to the grounds keepers, the NFL is their profession. If they don't work for the Browns as an employee directly the company they work for is dependent on the Browns for their jobs. They are employees of or dependent on a huge corporation. It's a corporation and a career. That's two totally different vantage points to view a situation from. The players have a very short window with which to accumulate all the money they can from a very limited and short career. Along with that most of the greats have that competitive fire within them. They not only want to accumulate wealth over that short career but winning means something to them. Some of the greats do stick with their teams no matter what.

Joe Thomas did that exact thing. He has been my favorite player for the Browns from the day he was drafted since the return in 1999. I'm glad he chose to stay with the Browns his entire career and retire as a Brown. But I wouldn't have blamed him had he have chosen to move on either. It has to be tough to be such a great player and lose all the time.

In the past 5 years, what have these guys done to earn a 6th year?

AB - How many players on this team would any other team trade 1 3rd round pick or hight for?
Obviously Myles
Maybe Jeudy?
Maybe JOK?

Denzel has talent but with the money we are paying him and his injury history, I would doubt it
Njoku? Unlikey but will give that a maybe


KS - not a strong leader
Clearly not enough discipline on this team
He has a coordinato personality not a HC personality

Jc

We can judge Andrew Berry with or without the Watson trade. This team has a lot more problems all over the field and depth and talent is lacking everywhere. Barry has definitely had some good drafts and has hit on some good players, but at the end of the day the team is a mess and he's the GM.

Each to their own, but I have no faith whatsoever that Andrew Berry will build a better team than we have now. I don't want him in charge of a rebuild considering the rebuild as a result of his mismanagement of the team.

I don't think an entire rebuild in needed. I think the Browns will lose out especially with DTR as QB. Draft Heisman winner Travis Hunter to play opposite Denzil Ward. Trade Greg Newsome for whatever pick you can get. Hunter would give the Browns 2-man corners and push Emerson to depth. Hunter can also be used around10 plays a game on offense to give O another weapon on the outside. They need to sign a veteran like Kirk Cousins as QB that FITS Stefanski's play action pass system. Just need to fix the run game to set up the play action. Use the remaining draft to draft an RB (like a Trevon Henderson) to eventually replace Chubb and give the team a more explosive backfield. Draft Oline man and blocking tight ends to complete with what is coming back. Jamies Winston proved the passing game has weapons. The 30 turnovers and missed FG's/extra points is what has killed this team in 2024. I don't know if Dustin Hopkins can be fixed but 2023 proved he can do the job at a high level. he needs an off season to fix his issues. The defense has taken a step back from last year but there is enough there if adding the top corner to be good next season. Maybe not win a Superbowl but to get back to competitive possible 10-win team. Year after that add more pieces to defense and then hopefully set expectations higher.

Ask AI ......

https://iask.ai/?mode=question&q=which+coaches+and%2For+front+office+personnelk+should+the+Cleveland+Browns+fire+after+this+season%3F

According to Ask AI & Question AI www.iAsk.ai:

Evaluating the Cleveland Browns Coaching and Front Office Personnel

The Cleveland Browns are facing a tumultuous season in 2024, with a record of 2-8 at their bye week and significant disappointment surrounding the team’s performance. Given this context, it is essential to evaluate which coaches and front office personnel may be at risk of being fired after this season.

1. Kevin Stefanski (Head Coach)

Kevin Stefanski’s tenure as head coach has been marked by both success and disappointment. He has led the team to two playoff appearances in five seasons, which is an improvement over previous coaching regimes. However, the current season’s struggles, particularly following high expectations for a playoff berth, have put his job security in jeopardy. The Browns’ performance has regressed significantly compared to previous years, leading to speculation about whether he will retain his position.

Stefanski’s decision-making has come under scrutiny, especially regarding his handling of quarterback Deshaun Watson and the overall team strategy. If the Browns continue to perform poorly, it is likely that ownership will consider moving on from him despite his past successes.

2. Andrew Berry (General Manager)

Andrew Berry’s role as general manager has also come into question due to the team’s disappointing performance and roster decisions. While he was instrumental in building a playoff-caliber team in previous seasons, the failure to find consistent quarterback play and other key positions has raised concerns about his ability to lead the franchise effectively.

Berry’s involvement in the controversial trade for Deshaun Watson—who has struggled since joining the team—has further complicated his standing. If ownership decides that a fresh start is needed for both coaching and management, Berry could be among those let go.

3. Assistant Coaches

While specific assistant coaches may not be named publicly as potential candidates for dismissal, there is often collateral damage when a head coach or general manager faces scrutiny. Depending on how the remainder of the season unfolds, various position coaches could be at risk if they are deemed responsible for poor player development or game planning failures.

Conclusion

In summary, the Cleveland Browns should consider firing Kevin Stefanski as head coach and Andrew Berry as general manager after this season, along with potentially evaluating their assistant coaching staff based on overall performance metrics and accountability for the team’s failures.

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