DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Myles Garrett Requests Trade

To me it's on a case by case basis. If a player doesn't have a lot of personal baggage and hasn't come to an impasse where he had to sit out with his former team for a complete season you can rely heavier on analytics. But in a case like watson's that doesn't apply.

Some wish to paint everything with a broad brush when it doesn't always apply.

Once again bringing your personal grievances to Pure Football. Why am I not surprised by that?

I'll try to get this back on track. AB has had five years to get things right. You referred to not giving him "the quick hook".

So how much longer do you think he should be given? Another two years, three years, five years? Can you name any other current NFL GM who still has his job that ended up having a 3-14 record after having been an NFL GM for a five year stretch on the same team?

Try to stay focused the time.

Interesting that Berry & Stefanski not only have posted a 5-year losing record (41-46 including PO's) but of the 14 teams at season's end this year that have had the same GM/HC combo for the last 4 or 5 years, the Browns Berry & Stefanski have posted the poorest win pct of the group - dead last of 14 teams. Posting 3 of 5 seasons with a losing record is nothing to cheer about either when it was thought that the last 4-years were supposed to be the Browns Super Bowl window. Extending Berry & Stefanski has just delayed the inevitable, these two do not have the right tools in their toolbox to do the job needed.

Can you name a GM that got the Browns to the playoffs more than once this millenium?

It's a short list. The one name starts with a B and ends in -erry.

Unfortunately, the Browns job isn't the average NFL GM job. It's a job that comes with a bunch of hurdles. Both history and public/player perception are hindrances, and it's in what's been amongst the best divisions in football. There's never really been another bad team in the division to beat up on. Switch the Browns' and Buccaneers' divisions and it likely looks different. Same for Browns and Texans.

He's had one bad season (in a "row") after making the playoffs the year before. A year in which the starting QB got hurt, starting RB missed a bunch of time and wasn't at 100% when he played, Tackle was a mash unit, a guy off the street named Whiteheart saw significant time at TE, Tillman had a major concussion. Rookie guard coming off a broken leg (Zinter) played in every game as guys on the interior got banged up. That's just on offense, and not even all of the injuries there.

The guy has made it to the playoffs more than any of the supposed saviors/savants did. He did it while having to overcome a ridiculous number of injuries to important players in every season. He did it while having to face two MVP caliber QBs in the division and the other team with a traditionally great defense that has led the league in sacks over the past two decades.

He didn't do it alone, but the number of people that are done with part of the best group we've had since the return after an injury plagued season is just strange to me.

You can stay focused on the time. I'll keep trying to look at everything, because it all matters. Not just the things you want to pull out and twist together to support a narrative.

You're a what person and I'm a why person. Different ways of looking at the world. I like to read the whole book instead of just jumping to the conclusion. Hell, I'll read books about the books to try to really understand them. You seem to come to a conclusion and then go back and try spin things to support them.

Every general manager in the NFL have expectations.

Injuries, bad luck, weather, feelings, co workers or whatever excuse you prefer to mention is part of the game.

Read that again.

In order to judge a successful GM, don't you think it would be a little bit more relevant to compare Berry a good NFL GM instead of comparing him to the Cleveland Browns who have the losingest record in the NFL since 2000?

As I posted, Berry is the losingest GM percentage wise among current GM's that have been in their position the last 4-5 years. 3 out of 5 seasons Berry and Stefanski have posted a losing season, and they have a 5-year losing record.

Even if you just looked at the last 3-years (Watson years), the Browns are 21-30 (.412) regular season record. That's worse than WAS, LAC, ATL, IND, tied with NOS and worse than every team in the AFC North for the 3-year period. These years were supposed to be the Browns window for a Super Bowl.

Excuses are like azzholes, everyone has one. After 5-years, 2025 and going forward doesn't look any better than when Berry and Stefanski arrived. Most posters here have resigned themselves to a losing season in 2025. Name me a team with a 5-year tenured GM & HC that is predicted to have a losing season coming up. Maybe never if ever?

Part of the game? Yes. In the GM's control? No.

If Jalen Hurts, Saquon, Mailata, Lane Johnson, Goedert, and AJ Brown had all gotten hurt and the Eagles had missed the playoffs, would that have meant Howie Roseman was a bad GM?

Berry didn't make Fitzpatrick torpedo Chubb's knee. He didn't allow it. He had no control over it. Injuries happen. When a bunch of them happen to important players any GM's season won't end well.

You can point to Detroit, but it's a lot easier to cover up a battered defense than it is a battered offense. You can try to keep your defense off the field by controlling time of possession. It can change your strategy and make you more aggressive, like going for it on 4th downs the most in the league. Unfortunately, trying to keep your defense on the field as much as possible isn't a viable strategy when scoring more points than the other team is how you win in the NFL.

So you give Berry credit for making the playoffs last year? His 230 million dollar man man flunked out yet again and the third of three first round draft picks was used by Houston yet again. Stefanski had to use what, four, five QB's to make it work? lol

And saying he doesn't suck as bad as those who came beforee him is why the job was open in the first place. That's a pretty low bar.


Yes it was an AFC north team vying for it's third AB in a row this year. Wait, no it wasn't. Baker really has nothing to do with this even though he's been better since he left than anything AB has tried to replace him with.


2020 11-5
2021 8-9
2022 7-10
2023 11-6
2024 3-14

That's really the hill you chose to die on? Out of the past four seasons you decided to make a stand on the anomaly instead of the norm? He took what was a playoff team in his first year and it went downhill from there. With of course the exception of one out of the next four seasons.



Then include the pattern over 5 year instead of two. Because that's what you've done here. Your excuse seems to be that he sucks less than those who came before him. I mean if you want to talk about twisting something together to support a narrative.


I'm not spinning anything. It seems to escape you that the corporate world is results oriented. You either succeed or you're gone. Corporations don't do some deep dive on the why's and hows of how you failed. Only that they paid you a huge sum of money to get the desired results and you failed. That's the world we both live in. It's just that I'm not the one here presenting some false reality of the situation.

You never bothered to answer my question. How many more years should he get to get a franchise QB? How many more years should be given to build a roster than can take us deep into the playoffs? Because unless results don't matter to you.... Unless him being successful at the job he's getting paid to do doesn't matter to you, there has to be a limit somewhere.

You keep talking about injuries which sounds good in theory. Dan Quinn and Andy Reid disagree. The reason why they do is because they have a QB. After five years under the Berry the Browns do not. Nor has Berry built a roster with the proper depth to absorb injuries. That's the difference between GM's that keep their jobs instead of GM's who don't.

Good GMs make bad moves. I compared there in other posts, too.

Show me a GM that made the playoffs after having the injuries we had on offense. The only one I can think of is ...Berry the year before.

Which QB move made in 2022 worked? Unfortunately, it was a year when there weren't really any answers available. We took a big swing on Watson, and struck out. For all those saying we should have kept Baker, he went 1-5 that year and requested his release in Carolina. Was the shoulder still not right? Seems possible. Would perhaps explain the trade compensation.

Unfortunately again, this year looks a lot like 2022 as far as options at QB. Darnold is probably better than those options, but you'd be counting on the ghosts that came back at the end of the season not being there to stay, and will likely be paying a ton to find out.

On the bright side, we made the playoffs in a season with DTR and PJ Walker starting games.

Predictions aren't worth a lot. We were predicted to be good last season.

The both part makes it tough.

Ballard has been in Indy for more than five but not Steichen. Ballard and Schoen are both in year 4 in New York.

How many teams have had to play as many QBs as the Browns over a two year period? I'd guess that also is maybe a never if ever situation.

Brett Veach and Brad Holmes.

How many of those teams paid 230 million dollars and 3 fist round draft picks for a QB that failed? If you can find one they were fired.

I'm not the one convinced of something. I question the convictions of those that want rid of him. Your arguments don't make a ton of sense.

Is the 11 the anomaly or the 3? Are you sure that the number that shows up the most is the anomaly?

Go figure a team with a hurt QB doesn't have the same results as one with a healthy QB.

So Pat Mahomes and Jared Goff missed last season?

Show me one that was fired. Only one is still here.

Man are you ever lost. watson sucks when he plays. You've avoided every substantial question posed to you. Yes, last season was the anomaly. When AB got here he inherited a team that went 11-5. Two years in a row it regressed. Then one season it was good while regressing to its lowest point yet this past season.

AB has failed to get a franchise QB. AB has failed to assemble a roster that can absorb injuries. Something both KC and the Lions have done.

You are supporting a GM that would have been fired by all of the other 31 teams. You refuse to be convinced of it because you refuse to admit tht the NFL is a results oriented business and the results would have gotten him fired anywhere else.

He set this franchise back years.

So are we agreed that comparing Berry to other CLE GMs is meaningless as a barrometer of being good? That was one narrative you tried to paint.

We can disagree on the other stuff, yes we had lots of injuries. Yes too the backups looked bad. The backups are also part of the GMs remit. Yes we made the playoffs with PJ Walker and DTR starting games ... But those two were wholly inadequate to be the only other options at QB at the start of the season, to me thats a huge error on the GMs judgement, you choose to ignore that or look past it.

Bottom line i think Berry has had 5 years and was handed a loaded deck ... And we've seen poor results. You choose to think he's done a good job despite observable results, mainly based on injuries and an aged QB called Flacco who we got lucky with. . . . Well Berry still has his job so I'm hoping you are right despite my opinion. But i see little value in going around the houses again on your position or mine.

Once somebody has to resort to desperation like "we made the playoffs with PJ Walker and DTR starting games" you know the war is lost. At least most of us do The fact the HC made something palatable out of turd soup is no thanks to the GM.

There's a difference between only being one piece of the puzzle and being meaningless.

The problem with "loaded decks" is that good players get expensive. You can't afford great backups everywhere. The roster he inherited, unfortunately, wasn't loaded at QB. Dorsey was loaded with draft picks so his good players (Myles, Chubb) were cheap. Berry had to figure out how to pay for them without a surplus of high picks.

Dorsey had a shot at Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson and instead came away with Baker. A QB with a gunslinger's mentality, but lacking the physical tools to consistently get away with it. He also thinks he's built like Cam Newton and throws his body around like a maniac. The "angry runs" look great until he ends up injured. It's a volatile recipe and the ceiling is debatable. In 2022 he was coming off a significant injury. It was bad timing for a team with Super Bowl aspirations.

Yet Kansas City and the Lions pull it off on the regular. That's the difference between a good NFL GM and one that's not. They can recognize and sign talent that fits their system in case of injury that aren't high priced FA's or high draft picks. Then we have AB who can not.

And yes, Dorsey was fired too. Yet AB has done just as bad or worse and he still has his job.

The fewest games Mahomes has played in a season since becoming the starter is 14. Goff has played all 17 games the past 3 seasons.

It's a QB driven league.

And watson has shown he's not a franchise QB and AB has had five years to get one. The cost of that mistake is part of the reason the browns are where they are. I have no idea on what planet you are trying to compare the watson we have seen to Goff and Mahommes.

When a QB is hurt and off the field, they effectively can't show anything. Unfortunately, having 5 years to get one doesn't mean you were in position to get one all of those 5 years.

Dorsey had the shot, and he blew it.

Berry gambled trying to make the best of a bad situation and it failed horrifically. People forget how jacked up Baker's shoulder was. That draft sucked at QB. FA options were also trash.

I don't know if there's a shot this draft or not. I have my doubts. We'll see.

Edit: I'd be more on board with a new GM if I did see a QB answer in the draft. I see a new guy picking a QB at 2 because he thinks he has to pick a QB, and we're set further back again. Hopefully, Berry has learned not to try to force it.

In between the rhetoric..... Dorsey blew it and he was fired. AB blew it and he still has his job. We've sen watson play several games.


Aren't I the one you accused of writing fortune cookies?

AB didn't pick Baker over Allen and Lamar. He picked Watson over broken Baker and Kenny Pickett. Definitely not great (dreadful in retrospect actually,) but where was the good option he passed on?

No, I said it'd be a good fit for your talents--Ability to write vague sentences and nothing else while passing it off as profound wisdom.

I think you'd be a terrible fortune teller. I'm not claiming I'd be a good one. I just wrote what I think. No claims of fact or using straight up falsities like you. Or do you still insist the Lions showed how to overcome the offensive injuries we had "on the regular" while the same QB started every single game for 3 seasons?

Dorsey didn't blow it! That's a false narrative.
With hindsight Allen and Jackson is a better pick but a healthy Mayfield is also a top 10 NFL QB based on the last two seasons stats. So he was actually a good pick, not the best that year but still good enough for us to be competitive when he was healthy

Andrew Berry has made two major decisions regarding finding an FQB and he and his staff (and Jimmy so we don't have to argue about him) have failed miserably in both of these decisions.

According to reports Kevin Stefanski's relationship with Baker wasn't good, in the end they couldn't coexist.
If we look at Watson's time in Cleveland it didn't work exactly smoothly either. Either DSW was unprepared or not totally physically fit.

So both Berry and Stefanski have failed with handling the Browns need to install an elite QB. So after five seasons we’re in a much worse place then we was when Dorsey was kicked out of Berea.

So you admit two guys were better, but not picking them when you could have is somehow not blowing it? Is the goal when picking as a GM is to get the 3rd best guy? Is the goal to be competitive or to win the Super Bowl?

Baker Mayfield 6 years in the future is a top 10 QB (by some metrics-- I'll give it to you) when healthy, playing in a bad division, with an all-pro LT and future HOF WR. He still didn't win a playoff game this year. The last we saw of Baker here was not that. Unfortunately, he wasn't healthy when we had to make a decision on him. Watson was. Hell, he was well rested, coming off 3 straight pro bowl seasons when he had played. Unfortunately, picking right back up wasn't as straightforward as could be hoped, and Watson has been the injured one the past two seasons. The decision was made at a point in time where one injury we had direct knowledge of. There was no way of knowing about the future ones. Picking the guy with the completely torn labrum and broken bone in his shoulder was the bet you would have made in March 2022 when the owner gives you the directive to try to win a Super Bowl that season?

What was the 2nd major decision? I count one, and don't see a great option sitting there when they had to make it. Dorsey had great options.

Go figure, injuries make things not work out. That's football.

Stop boring the hell out of me, all of you.
Here’s something I thought of recently that I haven’t seen proposed anywhere else:

What if the Browns told Garrett: “look, start the season with us, because we won’t trade you before June regardless, and if we suck next year, if by mid-October if it still seems hopeless, we will trade you”?

Place your bets!..

Defending AB for 'moving-on' from a listless Baker Mayfiled is a foolish idea.

Quarterbacks with 4,500+ Passing Yards, 40+ Touchdowns in a Season, NFL History (listed chronologically)

Dan Marino, Dolphins, 1984 and 1986
Peyton Manning, Colts, 2004; Broncos, 2013
Tom Brady, Patriots, 2007; Buccaneers, 2020 and 2021
Matthew Stafford, Lions, 2011; Rams, 2021
Aaron Rodgers, Packers, 2011
Drew Brees, Saints, 2011 and 2012
Andrew Luck, Colts, 2014
Patrick Mahomes, Chiefs, 2018, 2022
Joe Burrow, Bengals, 2024
Baker Mayfield, Buccaneers, 2024

Mayfield also joined Brees (2011), Burrow (2024) and Rodgers (2020) as the only players ever to record 4,000+ passing yards, 40+ touchdown passes and a completion rate of at least 70% in a season. His final completion percentage of 71.4% was a career high and it ranked third in the NFL in 2024.

Highest Completion Percentage, NFL, 2024

Tua Tagovailoa, Dolphins: 72.9%
Jared Goff, Lions: 72.4%
Baker Mayfield, Buccaneers: 71.4%
Joe Burrow, Bengals: 70.6%
Geno Smith, Seahawks: 70.4%

Since 2023, Baker Mayfield had the most passing touchdowns, with 69 touchdowns.

https://www.buccaneers.com/news/baker-mayfield-data-crunch-week-18-saints-buccaneers

Lamp I honestly thought of the same thing. Trading Myles at the trade deadline seems more reasonable for both parties. Everyone will see how we're doing at that point. By that time a contending team may have lost an important player on D, like Detroit this year, and be desperate to make a trade for a player of Myles caliber. I do believe we should try and send him to a contender. Myles deserves that kind of consideration being the player he's been for us. JMO

Would they even need to say that?

They simply cannot trade Garrett this off-season for cap reasons. Ain't happening and all parties just need to acknowledge that reality. If the team has anything less than a playoff win next year, I think the FO is rebooted and there's no way Garrett is gonna be around for that (even if he wanted to).

Unfortunately, I think trading Myles leaves a big cloud in its wake, too. Possibly bigger. Holdouts happen. Getting rid of the best player on your team by "miles" in his prime generally doesn't. Unless someone wants to give us a Herschel Walker deal with 3 1sts, 3 2nds, and more. Even then, while it might work out in the long run, I don't think it helps the locker room this year.

Looking like another unideal off-season, regardless of what happens now. Myles already dropped the grenade. Hopefully, damage control can contain the blast and put out any fires. Unfortunately, there will be plenty of outsiders willing to pour on fuel.

To be clear, this is not directed at you. If Garrett had any faith in Berry, Stefanski, and to a lesser extent Haslam's ability to right the ship through FA, the draft, and coaching changes this year, would he have requested a trade 2 months before the start of the new league season?

Sitting Garrett down and basically telling him you're not trading him until we see that in October if we haven't righted the ship will definitely create a disgruntled player. Unfortunately, I'm with Garrett on this. After 5-years of Berry failure, the Browns are further away now than they were when Berry and Stefanski took over. After 5-years, the Browns have no franchise QB, no #1 RB, a decimated WR room with no clear cut WR2 or WR3, and an o-line that has a LT opening this year, C, LG, & RG on the final year of their deals, a RT in 2-years that hasn't been able to stay on the field the last 3-years, and a fragile TE being paid top money in his final year that has never consistently lived up to expectations. That's just the offense yet the defense has issues too.

Do you really believe that Stefanski and/or Berry have the cojones to control a locker room when your star player is big-time disgruntled? They couldn't control Watson, OBJ, or if you believe the stories - Mayfield. What makes anyone think it will be different this time?

Finally, the effect Garrett has on the cap. Parting with Garrett after June 1 saves money on the cap this year but the majority of it moves to 2026. Bitonio, Teller, Pocic, and Njoku are all in their final year of their deals. If the Browns let them play out their contracts and not resigned, their dead money all becomes due in 2026. The third problem that enters this mix is Watson. If the Browns are going to cut cheese with Watson in 2026 - where does the money come from for the dead cap and how do you replace the players needing replaced with a minimum dead cap for 2026 alone at over $133,377,325. That's just the offense and Garrett's dead money cost. The defense would also add to this total since they will have changes too.

Just an FYI, going into 2025 new year, the Browns have about 15 players carrying big dead cap charges if moved one way or another. Those dead cap charges have to hit the books sometime between 2025-2026 -2027 depending on when the moves are made. Trying to save in 2025 only makes 2026 and 2027 bigger cap year hells. I've been warning of this for two years - cap hell is here now, and it'll take years and a losing team to come close to fixing it. Not to mention the ($30,168,764) cap deficit the Browns must balance out by March 12th just to be league compliant to even start the new league year. Prepare for ugly my fellow Brown fans because it's going to get really ugly!

My bet is he stays in Cleveland for at least 2025.