I understood why they went after DW. It just turned crappily.
Can you explain it then? Because to me I can't find any reason other than Haslam purposely wanting to lose. It was the worst trade of all time and most of us knew it and called it out at the time not just in hindsight.
Even if Watson was fully healthy and playing I wouldn't have spent 3x #1s on him, let alone not playing for a year, holding out with tons of court cases pending.
I understood why they went after DW. It just turned crappily.
Can you explain it then? Because to me I can't find any reason other than Haslam purposely wanting to lose. It was the worst trade of all time and most of us knew it and called it out at the time not just in hindsight.
Even if Watson was fully healthy and playing I wouldn't have spent 3x #1s on him, let alone not playing for a year, holding out with tons of court cases pending.
That is moronic. Nobody made the trade to purposely lose.
Hopefully after a night's sleep you will wake up and realize how stupid that sounds.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I understood why they went after DW. It just turned crappily.
Can you explain it then? Because to me I can't find any reason other than Haslam purposely wanting to lose. It was the worst trade of all time and most of us knew it and called it out at the time not just in hindsight.
Even if Watson was fully healthy and playing I wouldn't have spent 3x #1s on him, let alone not playing for a year, holding out with tons of court cases pending.
Baker's shoulder was jacked up at the time, and they weren't willing to bet on it. PFT: Baker on Injury - Link
After we moved on, He also worked on changing his throwing mechanics that off-season (due to the injury? range of motion loss post-surgery? Yes, it was the non-throwing shoulder, but Baker threw with his whole body), and finally started using a dedicated QB coach (same as Mahomes) in the off-season after years of making fun of them while with us.
I think people underestimate how much the medical evaluations play into decision making. Not wanting to pay big money to a guy with a major injury made sense at the time. The other options that were available at the time were ...not good. Lack of options drove up the price of the one that the QB needy teams thought could be and had been good.
Baker was at a crossroads, he put in the work and appears to have come out the other side better. We don't know what the medical looks like now. To me, the contract he signed indicates it was still a bit of a consideration (Less than Carr by APY, only 3 years, lots of incentives.) We do know that he still recklessly throws his body around on angry runs. As a fan, that's fun. As a teammate, that's motivating. As a manager invested in the QB, that's kind of scary.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
I understood why they went after DW. It just turned crappily.
And that's the bottom line.
What I feel most people ignored in the decision making or at the very least underestimated the gravity of, and that includes this FO, is all the baggage that came along with DW.
All of the civil suits involving the abuse of women. Not, 1, not 5, not 10, but well over 20. Excuses were made to the point that his victims became the target of fans. The entire thing as it played out on this very board was nothing short of disgusting. Then there's the fact that for some reason which has been disputed as to the exact cause, is that his last season at Houston he didn't even play. Something had manifested itself so deeply that he didn't even see the field for an entire season. Both of these were huge red flags that anyone could see if looking at it objectively.
The numbers and the tape looked impressive. But that was over a season removed from all of the other factors. Some understood why they went after DW. Some felt it was a huge mistake. It seems as those who felt his personal issues weighed heavily and would be near impossible to overcome were right. And they weren't even NFL GM's.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I understood why they went after DW. It just turned crappily.
Can you explain it then? Because to me I can't find any reason other than Haslam purposely wanting to lose. It was the worst trade of all time and most of us knew it and called it out at the time not just in hindsight.
Even if Watson was fully healthy and playing I wouldn't have spent 3x #1s on him, let alone not playing for a year, holding out with tons of court cases pending.
Baker's shoulder was jacked up at the time, and they weren't willing to bet on it. PFT: Baker on Injury - Link
After we moved on, He also worked on changing his throwing mechanics that off-season (due to the injury? range of motion loss post-surgery? Yes, it was the non-throwing shoulder, but Baker threw with his whole body), and finally started using a dedicated QB coach (same as Mahomes) in the off-season after years of making fun of them while with us.
I think people underestimate how much the medical evaluations play into decision making. Not wanting to pay big money to a guy with a major injury made sense at the time. The other options that were available at the time were ...not good. Lack of options drove up the price of the one that the QB needy teams thought could be and had been good.
Baker was at a crossroads, he put in the work and appears to have come out the other side better. We don't know what the medical looks like now. To me, the contract he signed indicates it was still a bit of a consideration (Less than Carr by APY, only 3 years, lots of incentives.) We do know that he still recklessly throws his body around on angry runs. As a fan, that's fun. As a teammate, that's motivating. As a manager invested in the QB, that's kind of scary.
My intention isn’t to disagree or to say you’re wrong but Mayfield’s stats from 2020 and pre injury in 2021 isn’t something to sneeze about. With the right kind of guidance and believing in the process that age and experience would help him it isn’t fantasy to thing that he could have become the QB we see today in Tampa if he had stayed with the Browns. To Browns FO could easily have given him a fifth year contract extension and let him prove himself again when he was free from injuries. In my world that would be a wiser decision than going all in on 230m and 3 + 3 first and third round picks.
Anyway that’s history now but there’re reasons why some of us find it so hard to stand behind Berry and Stefanski after such a wild rodeo.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by lampdogg
I understood why they went after DW. It just turned crappily.
And that's the bottom line.
What I feel most people ignored in the decision making or at the very least underestimated the gravity of, and that includes this FO, is all the baggage that came along with DW.
All of the civil suits involving the abuse of women. Not, 1, not 5, not 10, but well over 20. Excuses were made to the point that his victims became the target of fans. The entire thing as it played out on this very board was nothing short of disgusting. Then there's the fact that for some reason which has been disputed as to the exact cause, is that his last season at Houston he didn't even play. Something had manifested itself so deeply that he didn't even see the field for an entire season. Both of these were huge red flags that anyone could see if looking at it objectively.
The numbers and the tape looked impressive. But that was over a season removed from all of the other factors. Some understood why they went after DW. Some felt it was a huge mistake. It seems as those who felt his personal issues weighed heavily and would be near impossible to overcome were right. And they weren't even NFL GM's.
That’s a really good post PitDAWG! I appreciate that you can think outside the box and see things from a neutral standpoint without losing perspective.
OBJ’s Daddy did that… we then completely screwed ourselves trying to bend over backwards for a rapey talentless turd because Baker got scapegoated. And if that crap about Ski pulling the plug on paying Baker over his arrogance/commercials/abrasiveness or whatever it was, is true, then we shipped the wrong guy. The whole damn thing made me start hating this team and I’m sure others felt the same.
We should sign whomever we can in FA to help us. Use the draft prudently, hopefully, to find players that can help us now and others that have talent that can be developed for the future. Incorporate them into our system and line up and play and do the best we can. As far as Myles I would try and work out a trade as much as it pains me. This team is in a tough situation and it’s going to take a lot of work and effort to get us out of it.
I heard Stafford is getting uppity about his contract in LA.
How would we pay someone like him?
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Who is this guy? He's clearly engagement farming for likes and follows.
Stafford would throw himself on the 480 bridge before agreeing to come to Cleveland. He'd just head to booth for a payday. He and his wife absolutely love L.A.
I called the Stafford thing a month ago. (Love tooting my own horn, lol) If they give him stupid money who knows. I know they can’t justify that tho. But he’s about as solid a citizen as there is and you draft a young guy you see a little something in and let him ride the pine under Stafford, that’s not a bad idea.
Weighing in on the DW/ Baker thing. The problem is as I see it, ownership is hella cynical. No faith. In game theory you can always get that guy to move rather than stick with what he’s got, under values what he has, over values what he ain’t got. Easy to play. You’re right Pit, there were SOOOOO many “wrong way” and “do not enter” signs getting on this road and they pushed thru regardless. And they have to eat the turd sandwich. I hope they learn the right lessons. I doubt they will.
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
Stay away from Kirk Cousins! Great guy. The right attitude. 100% professional.
Despite that both the Vikings and the Falcons decided to take another route. Stefanski/Cousins partnership!? They know each other….yada yada yada. Forget it, The only stats that’s relevant for the Browns FO is what happened last season. Stay away.
Joe Flacco? Stay away. 2023 was 2023. Be smart and accept that time is our enemy in this case.
Shedeur Sanders? Stay away. When things go well the media will be all over the place and hail him as the new savior. When results go south the tune will change and the media circus and his social media followers will blame the Browns and everything in between Berea and Huntington Bank field. The opposite of the happy ending that our latest FQB liked.
Be smart for once Andrew Berry!
If your idea is to go right, go left. If you’re planning to jump, stand still. Do the opposite to every thought you have and things will be fine.
I wouldn't mind Joe as a 2nd FA QB. As much as we need a starter, going into the season again with a QB room that has DTR as the first viable backup would be a fire-able offense.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Putting this here instead of the draft thread because Breer briefly talks about both the Browns FA and draft hopes re: QBs at the beginning. His comments mirror what I would consider an ideal situation for the Browns-- getting Cousins on the vet minimum and then drafting Cam Ward. Not to mention him stating that the Browns don't believe they are in full rebuild mode, which I also agree. Now, that being said, Berry usually comes out swinging with a couple early deals in FA and if he doesn't this year, that might indicate what the Browns are thinking in terms of their current roster makeup.
Towards the end of the interview Breer mentions Cousins to the Browns again making sense. He mentions the dollar amount already invested by the Browns in the QB position (Watson), but the Stefanski connection makes sense too. The issue would be, for the second year in a row, Cousins would be considered a bridge to a much younger QB and it seemed he didn't like seeing Penix drafted after he had signed with ATL a month earlier. Not sure how he would view the prospects of Cleveland and the potential repeat of the situation he was in last year.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
I know we're in the thick of silly season right now, but last we heard out of ATL was that they are going to hang onto Cousins and keep him as a backup. Even the Cousins route isn't guaranteed to happen.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
If we can't get Cousins Daniel Jones is an option with us drafting a QB at some point. DJ can't be any worse than what we have now and would probably be an improvement.
If the only improvement we end up making at the QB position is Watson -> DJones, I'd be so disappointed. Better hope your draft pick is ready to play sooner rather than later.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Honestly, I think I'd rather go Fields or Trey Lance than either of those two. I'm not saying I'd love it. I just think they have better chances of improving from what they were. (Fields (26) is still only a year older than Bo Nix.) I also think a run heavy offense would benefit from the threat of their legs. With the way defenses have been trending, I think opponents might stick in two deep, with running games coming back in vogue. If they want to go single high coverage I think those two have the arms and escapability to make opponents pay (not necessarily consistently, but scoring in one play can afford offense to be more sporadic.) I definitely don't think the passing game would be pretty all the time, but would have more deep shot potential.
I just think Cousins is on the decline and Jones has pretty much proven that he's a turnover machine. I don't think Cousins has the longevity to be worth trying to build around. I don't think Jones has a trait.
I think Fields/Lance to Ward/Milroe lead to the most straightforward transitions. I think Ward/Milroe are the two prospects in the draft with the potential to become top 10 at the position.
Edit: Financial considerations are a sizeable part of the reason I'm landing on Fields/Lance. Not just the lower price tag, but also potential value. The outcomes on the field are "risky," but the cost to ceiling possibility could be a nice surplus. With where we are at, might as well try the cheap-ish lotto tickets. I think the floors on those two are higher than some think.
Last edited by Bull_Dawg; 03/04/2511:53 AM.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
I think I would be leaning toward signing Cousins/Jones in free agency to start. Sign Jacoby Brissett as the backup and then drafting Dart at #2. I think Dart fits Stefanski's system best and watching the combine has the tools to be #2 overall pick. Then follow the Chiefs philosophy and let Dart sit and learn the entire 2025 season behind the veteran with Brissett as the backup and teacher to the rookie. In 2026 Dart is the starting QB with one of the veterans remaining as his back up.
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
I can definitely see the allure of Lance. I think he's the kind of QB you're looking for when you're going for a reclamation project.
-he'd be cheap -he has some talent (highly drafted)
bonus -already VERY familiar with Shanny/Kubiak concepts
I'd be curious if the injury issues that held him back in SF will rear their ugly head again.
Also, in order to have a run-heavy offense then we'd have to retool somewhat in order to get back to having an effective running game. I think the interior should mostly return to form with a scheme reset (assuming Bitonio is still on the roster) but our OTs still need at least 1 starter and probably some more depth (I'm assuming we're penciling Conklin in as a starter next year). We also will need at least 1 starter-caliber RB (I'm assuming Chubb either won't be on the roster or won't return to form).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
If the only improvement we end up making at the QB position is Watson -> DJones, I'd be so disappointed. Better hope your draft pick is ready to play sooner rather than later.
It seems like Cousins who fell like a rock being thrown off of a cliff at the end of 2024 is a poplar idea so why not DJ too?
This is the desperation fans have reached to.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Cousins has shown the ability to read the field and deliver the ball. He's also familiar and has had success with Stefanski and the O we've been running.
Daniel Jones has done little to none of those things.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Cousins ran the Falcons O well to, until he didn't. It wasn't a matter of him not being familiar with it or having success in it. He didn't get pulled for the rookie because he was reading the field and delivering the ball well.
Many QB's do things well until they hit a wall. At 36 for all the world it appeared he had a head on collision with that wall. If you think he will improve to what he once was at age 37 I hope you're right.. But by and large that's not the way things work.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I can definitely see the allure of Lance. I think he's the kind of QB you're looking for when you're going for a reclamation project.
-he'd be cheap -he has some talent (highly drafted)
bonus -already VERY familiar with Shanny/Kubiak concepts
I'd be curious if the injury issues that held him back in SF will rear their ugly head again.
Also, in order to have a run-heavy offense then we'd have to retool somewhat in order to get back to having an effective running game. I think the interior should mostly return to form with a scheme reset (assuming Bitonio is still on the roster) but our OTs still need at least 1 starter and probably some more depth (I'm assuming we're penciling Conklin in as a starter next year). We also will need at least 1 starter-caliber RB (I'm assuming Chubb either won't be on the roster or won't return to form).
I think this is a good draft to get RBs (plural, multiple teams might take multiple RBs.) Ollie Gordon and Brashard Smith look like a later attainable duo that I'd be happy with. OT is the question mark for me. I see a world where Dawand Jones is fine. I'd prefer having another option, I'm just not sure the draft falls that way because of other teams' needs and the way the board falls. I do need to dig into the later OTs, I've mainly focused at the top. I do feel if you go run heavy, you have a bit more wiggle room at tackle. You still need one, but a more run focused tackle is a bit easier to find.
Trade back and go Membou/OT could be an option.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Cousins ran the Falcons O well to, until he didn't. It wasn't a matter of him not being familiar with it or having success in it. He didn't get pulled for the rookie because he was reading the field and delivering the ball well.
Many QB's do things well until they hit a wall. At 36 for all the world it appeared he had a head on collision with that wall. If you think he will improve to what he once was at age 37 I hope you're right.. But by and large that's not the way things work.
Carl Dukes: Browns have the leverage over Myles Garrett; Kirk Cousins 'not a good teammate' for playing through injury with Falcons By The Ken Carman Show With Anthony LimaTom Withers,
4 days ago
Carl Dukes (92.9 The Game/Atlanta, Infinity Sports Network) joins Anthony Lima and Tom Withers to discuss the Cleveland Browns' situation with Myles Garrett, and what made Kirk Cousins "not a good teammate" during his tenure with the Atlanta Falcons.
This is the headline of a podcast that I tried to link but couldn't. I listened to Baskin and Phelps talk about this. According to Dukes Cousins tried to play through an injury which resulted in his poor play. Dukes said he was a bad teammate for not sitting when injured. He says he was being selfish.
Cousins ran the Falcons O well to, until he didn't. It wasn't a matter of him not being familiar with it or having success in it. He didn't get pulled for the rookie because he was reading the field and delivering the ball well.
Many QB's do things well until they hit a wall. At 36 for all the world it appeared he had a head on collision with that wall. If you think he will improve to what he once was at age 37 I hope you're right.. But by and large that's not the way things work.
Carl Dukes: Browns have the leverage over Myles Garrett; Kirk Cousins 'not a good teammate' for playing through injury with Falcons By The Ken Carman Show With Anthony LimaTom Withers,
4 days ago
Carl Dukes (92.9 The Game/Atlanta, Infinity Sports Network) joins Anthony Lima and Tom Withers to discuss the Cleveland Browns' situation with Myles Garrett, and what made Kirk Cousins "not a good teammate" during his tenure with the Atlanta Falcons.
This is the headline of a podcast that I tried to link but couldn't. I listened to Baskin and Phelps talk about this. According to Dukes Cousins tried to play through an injury which resulted in his poor play. Dukes said he was a bad teammate for not sitting when injured. He says he was being selfish.
Selfish? I thought these decisions are ultimately up to the HC?
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
The only reports I've seen on this are people quoting MKC. As far as I know she is the only one actually reporting that's true. I'm not saying the report is false. I'm just not sure that if the story were true that she would be the only one to have some inside source confirming it. The fact that other, what I consider to be more reliable sources have not come out with their own independent reports about this make me at the very least somewhat skeptical at this point.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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