DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Myles Garrett Trade Talk Continued....

Wait a moment,, Until he did the deal for Watson, the team was really moving in the right direction with the exception of Mayfields Shoulder. Everyone overreacted and the next thing you know, we have watson and a big set back that will haunt us for a long time.

We don't even know if that was an AB move or a Haslam move.. We don't know how called that one. Personally, given that Haslams kept AB and KS, I tend to Believe that Haslam made that call.,

Florio loves drama and doing elaborate mental exercises, he’s admitted as much several times. Pay no mind.

It all comes down to probabilities for me…

What is the likelihood we figure out some way to add a QB and enough other roster talent to turn this team into a contender in the next 2yrs? Very very (very) unlikely.

In short:
Too many roster holes
Too many aging contracts
Not enough young elite talent
Bad vibes galore, your best players are trying to leave, and
(biggest of all) NO visible path to a top 15 QB. None.

I would like anyone to show me where I’m wrong with this assessment. That’s a hellofa combo meal.

Therefore, be men and do the deed that must be done.

Deal Garrett and whoever else has real market value, buy out DW’s contract by giving him freedom after next year, eat all the dead money next year, tank-a-palooza and hog all the picks. You’re looking at rebirth starting in 27 which will be here in a blink.

The only real question for me is if Berry and Ski come along for the ride. Usually GMs & Coaches don’t survive that kind of attrition. I used to be very pro Berry & Ski but I’m not super sold either way anymore. I just know that finding new GM & Coaching talent is not this owners strings suit (put mildly)

When he did the deal for Watson, he only had 2 drafts under his belt. Wasn't long enough to really judge his drafting ability at the time.

I get that owners may and probably have given their thoughts and/or wants about a player. However, any GM worth his salt as a professional wouldn't allow that to happen or would never admit having been ordered to do it because the owner ordered them to against their wishes. Do I believe Haslam was consulted about the move due to the high price tag, of course. However, do you really believe that Haslam has the mental tools or experience to figure out the contract and the details, how the cost will affect the cap, and the future ability to continue to build the team going forward? Every GM in the NFL has a certain amount of money to deal with the yearly cap each season. The owners, Haslam included, expect the GM's to field a competitive team within the guidelines of the cap every year. Berry had to sell Haslam on the idea and that he could manage it cap wise and continue to improve. 3-years later and the Browns have a very difficult cap situation, a ROI of zero on Watson, an aging roster with mega holes, and your best player demanding a trade because he sees no promise in the future.

People can blame this on Haslam all they want but the problems the team has now are not all Watson - the vast majority is Berry - PERIOD!

I think there are signs of the exact opposite. Haslam pulled the plug on several coaches and GM's doing for far less. But he hung onto both KS and AB. WHY? I say it's because he made a deal with them.. Do what I want, if it don't work out, it's on me and you get the chance to correct. That's my opinion.

(Damon writes)-I think there are signs of the exact opposite. Haslam pulled the plug on several coaches and GM's doing for far less. But he hung onto both KS and AB. WHY? I say it's because he made a deal with them.. Do what I want, if it don't work out, it's on me and you get the chance to correct. That's my opinion.


The article below was written Feb 5,2024 and it questions the WHY certain coaches were fired after the Browns made the playoffs in 2024, but lost to the Texans.


Jimmy Haslam, Paul DePodesta meddling in Browns offense could be problematic

By Randy Gurzi
Feb 5, 2024

Deshaun Watson has yet to take off for the Cleveland Browns and Albert Breer says that's the reason the Cleveland Browns decision-makers wanted Alex Van Pelt fired.

When the Cleveland Browns decided to make several changes to the offensive staff, there were some raised eyebrows. Sure, they just lost to the Houston Texans in the Wild Card Round of the playoffs but this season was far from a failure.

Not only did the Browns win 11 games but they did so without Nick Chubb, without Deshaun Watson, and without their top two offensive linemen. In fact, they were down to their fourth starter when Joe Flacco took over as the quarterback and had their fifth and sixth options at tackle in the game against Houston.

Still, offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt, running backs coach Stump Mitchell, and tight ends coach T.C. McCartney were all let go. It was assumed the decision to move on from Van Pelt was made with the goal of helping Watson take his next step — and it appears Albert Breer has verified just that.

Breer also added another interesting detail. He says the decision didn't come from Kevin Stefanski but instead was made by owner Jimmy Haslam and chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta.

"The reason he was let go in Cleveland was because ownership and Paul DePodesta, not Kevin Stefanski, were frustrated with the progress Deshaun Watson has made. I don’t think the people who made that decision [to fire Van Pelt] really knew his value to that staff. Other people on that staff — not so much Kevin, but the people below him — were floored when they fired him for two reasons." — Breer via Chris Pokorny, Dawgs by Nature

Because that one single decision is the overriding factor as to why the Browns find themselves in the very situation they are in now. Because that one single decision set this team back for years and we are currently living it. I'm sorry it seems as though you don't understand that. And as long as that situation is ongoing it matters. It matters a great deal. I hope you find that helpful.

I tried to add more to this article but the DT "timer"...timed me out...so I will add the rest of the story in a second post.



Alex Van Pelt was the 'glue guy' on Cleveland's staff

@AlbertBreer
on what the Patriots' new OC brings to the table in Foxboro, via
@ZoandBertrand

Those two reasons Breer went into include the fact that the team was winning despite all the aformentioned injuries. The second was simply what AVP meant to this team. Breer states that Kevin Stefanski isn't exactly an outgoing guy, which is true. He's very smart but he also plays everything close to the vest.

Van Pelt, on the other hand, was the one who played intermediary. Players loved AVP and he communicated well with the coaching staff. Breer called him "the glue" that held it all together. That's not a job you replace easily.


Browns could be in trouble if things go south

Paul DePodesta is someone who knows how to get fans riled up — all he has to do is exist. His background isn't in football and he doesn't work out of Cleveland, so fans feel like he shouldn't have the control that he does. And for the past four seasons, it's felt as if his control — and Jimmy Haslam's meddling — have been held at bay by Stefanski and general manager Andrew Berry.

This is the first time in a while that reports have surfaced where DePodesta and Haslam start throwing their weight around. Of course, Haslam is the one signing the checks, and paying $235 million for a quarterback would be a reason to expect results. But if they made this move to help Watson without realizing the loss of Van Pelt could hurt the entire team, that could be dangerous.

Of course, winning cures all in the NFL. So if Ken Dorsey, who was hired to replace AVP, can help Watson step up his game, and the Browns win, then no one will care. If not, we might hear a lot more about this decision as the 2024 season rolls along.

https://dawgpounddaily.com/posts/ji...ffense-could-be-problematic-01hnvfzd1579

Roster holes occur every season. We have a lot of pillars in place as well, depending on whether or not Bitonio retires. I think if Garrett stays, Bitonio plays in 2025.

Holes:
QB, RB, WR2, WR3, LT, RT(if Conklin is cut and Jones is not recovered from surgery)

The entire starting lineup on defense returns for 2025, as long as Garrett is convinces they are ready to compete.

They obviously need to get creative once again with the salary cap, this has become an exact science though, which Berry is good at, despite others thinking.

So, to give you a realistic approach to being a viable contender.. it would rely on a couple of things to happen.

1) Stefanski's relationship with Kirk Cousins would have to come into play. Cousins is the kingpin to the season, and could just as easily be the down fall if he comes in still not fully recovered from his previous injury. This would take care of the QB issue short term in 2025, again, if Cousins can play healthy. If cut, Cousins entire 2025 pay will come from Atlanta minus the league minimum, which would be $1.255M. It gives the Browns a stop gap that works within the cap and Cousins an opportunity to earn one last big contract in 2026.

2) Much will need to happen in the draft

The 2nd overall pick will become a pivot point, if Garrett stays and they commit to winning in 2025. If Garrett goes and they are in rebuild, throw this entire post away and start talking 2027.

That 2nd pick can turn into several high draft picks in both 2025 and 2026.

Trade down scenarios for immediate help:

Trade #3 overall to Raiders and receive 2025 #6 overall (WR Tetairoa McMillan), 2025 #37 overall (LT Aireontae Ersery), 2026 2nd round draft pick, 2025#73 overall (RT/G Marcus Mbow)
Browns other picks in the first three rounds that can make an immediate impact:
#33 overall (RB Omarion Hampton), #67 overall (DT Darius Alexander), #94 overall (LB Barrett Carter)

Holes:
QB - Kirk Cousins
RB - Omarion Hampton
WR2 - Tetairoa McMillan
WR3 -
LT - Aireontae Ersery
RT - Marcus Mbow, could replace Bitonio if/when he retires

Upgrades:
DT Darius Alexander
LB Barrett Carter

Again, this is an exercise, not a prediction or statement of winning football. But, you asked for "anyone" to show a path to take care of some of the issues you listed

Too many roster holes
Too many aging contracts
Not enough young elite talent
Bad vibes galore, your best players are trying to leave, and
(biggest of all) NO visible path to a top 15 QB. None.

There are many aging contracts, that is a part of this league...
This would address roster holes, elite YOUNG talent and top 15 QB. Prior to 2024, Cousins was a top ten talent for 8 of the last 10 years. Injuries are the only thing that stopped him. In this scenario, Garrett stays, so that will help with the vibe for sure.

I'm not blowing unicorns and rainbows, this is a huge ask... it was merely a path to have a reason to watch in 2025. Take Myles out of the picture, Cousins out of the picture and you are looking forward to 2026.

I agree. Cannot fix the past but how can the future be changed. Haslam is not firing Berry and Stefanski. It does not seem likely Berry is trading Garrett. Garrett holding out does him little good because he will still have 2 years remaining on his contract unless he plays. So, unless a team makes an unbelievable offer for Garrett. The trade is not going to happen. That the moves made now thru the draft will shape our football team in 2025. Who will get cut, who will get traded, who will get restructured, etc... is all I care about at this point.

Watson will be on team by name only in 2025 and will get cut in 2026. The Browns will probably have him on their salary cap until 2030 but will spread it enough it won't make much difference after this off season. I think we will only hear his name when another restructure happens or when a media type wants to troll the fan base.

Just one talking point here. If they cut Watson in 2026, they will either have him on their cap for 2026 or 2026/2027. It cannot expand to 2030. The only way to put some of that into 2027 is to have him be a post June-1 cut. Then half will go into 2026 and the other half will be on 2027. If they keep him through out 2026, then in 2027 all of the void years come to fruition and those will be charged to 2027.

Can I just say, I will be a happy fan when we can stop talking about Deshaun Watson in any other term than "remember when".

And that milk is still all over the table and still dripping on the floor. Nobody has bothered to clean it up yet. Your answer seems to be ignore the mess. That's not going to happen. It's already began curdling up and stinking.


And that changes the situation we are in do to his actions how exactly? This is a disaster. And one thing I think is a terrible thing to tell disaster victims to do is move on.


And where we are now is due to the very thing you say we should move on from. Not only are those ignoring you speaking of where we are now but how we got to where we are now. You seem to feel that part no longer holds importance.


That doesn't mean everyone else should move on just because you don't think how we got in this situation is relative to where we are now. The two are directly connected. They are tied together tightly. It's known as "cause and effect".

OK! Fair.

Is it fair to say that the Browns “right now” is one of the worst managed organizations in the NFL?

If you disagree then tell me why we have more losses than wins in the last five seasons despite our team was filled with top talents in 2020?

No QB.
No QB backup.
A roster full of holes.
Our only elite player wants to leave.
A salary cap situation almost out of control.

Context matters.

Andrew Berry’s incompetence to build a competitive team, to manages the salary cap and finding talents is one of the key factors that’s holding this organization back from getting successful.

Why do we have more losses? Injuries.

Why do we have no QB? He's hurt. Again. ...Clearly, Berry personally broke Watson's shoulder and tore his Achilles.... Twice.

No backup QB? We've still got DTR. Is he a good starting QB? Doesn't appear so, but he wasn't drafted to be one.

A roster full of holes? Quantify that for me. Full of studs? No. I don't really see a ton of holes, either. Obviously, you always want to get better, but really the only hole I see is at QB. (And that is again due to injury) Do I like what would fill the hole if he weren't injured? Not any more. Would I like to shore up some spots? Definitely, but that's every team, every year. Improve at some? Sure, that'd be great.

Our only elite player wants to leave? Ward wants Myles to stay and has made multiple Pro Bowls. We have other good players. How many "elite" players do most teams have? If every player on every team were elite, we'd just call them players.

Almost out of control implies that it actually is still controlled.

Context absolutely matters. Not just in particular narrow areas that you want to use, but everywhere.

Just wondering why ANYBODY uses Pokorny as a source???

Just look at his followers and the amount of comments he gets.... hell some of the guys around here get more responses than him, and know more as well. Here is a list of his articles along with the the date they were posted and the number of responses.


https://www.dawgsbynature.com/authors/chris-pokorny

What's next are you going to start posting his travel tips as well???

https://pokotraveler.com/author/admin/

Nice post - I think most Browns fans would agree that they are eager to find out "Who will get cut, who will get traded, who will get restructured, etc..." and the direction this team is going under Berry's leadership in 2025.

Just a note on Watson though, if the Browns cut Watson in 2026, his dead cap either becomes instantly due pre-June 1 cut or split over 2-years for a post-June 1 cut. The Browns do not have the luxury of spreading out the costs until 2030, all the remaining dead cap will become due by the start of the league year in 2028 with a post-June 1 cut.

Not knowing what Berry will do this year with Watson, the current numbers for Watson using the above scenarios:
2025 Cap hit: $72,935,000
2026 pre-June 1 cut dead money: $99,799,000
2026 post-June 1 cut dead money: $72,935,000
2027 dead money due for 2026 post-June 1 cut: $26,864,000

This does not include the insurance of around $42M for 2025 due to be paid in 2026 which could lighten the burden. This fan is very cautious about the insurance payout due to the fact that the second Achilles injury was a non-football injury which could make the insurance null and void. We won't know that until released by the insurance company, but I don't believe it's a done deal like many believe. Just an FYI.

You directed this post in response to me. Now you're trying to say you were posting this to yourself? I find that to be an odd thing to say.

GM writes: Just wondering why ANYBODY uses Pokorny as a source???


link to Pokorny article:

Jimmy Haslam, Paul DePodesta meddling in Browns offense could be problematic

https://dawgpounddaily.com/posts/ji...ffense-could-be-problematic-01hnvfzd1579


GM...did you even read the article..?

Clearly Pokorny cites where he got the information..but you would have to read the article to know where Pokorny got the information for his story.

I'll make it easy for you GM: https://985thesportshub.com/2024/02/02/albert-breer-why-alex-van-pelt-was-fired-by-the-browns/

Speaking for yourself and to yourself are two different things for most people. You've shown us you're not most people, so the confusion is understandable.

So now you want to bring your personal BS to Pure Football where it doesn't belong. Why am I not surprised by that?

Try to stay focused no matter how hard you find that to be.

Not surprised one bit.

If he was claiming Jimmy was fed up you wouldn't see me posting. When he feeds your delusion the the Evil Monster Depo is in charge of everything he is off his meds, or maybe just clueless and has a axe to grind. Besides when did a blogger that nobody follows become an expert?

I agree Oobs. At the time he was widely seen as a rising star among GM's. The Watson trade has tarnished his reputation greatly.

Berry gets this year. This is his chance to help remove some of the tarnish. The problem for him is it takes more than 1 season to grade a draft, and he may not have more than this season. The team has to win this year. It may not even have to be playoff's, but it has to be better than last season. Everybody is going to have a different number on that, so I will leave it at that.

It will probably not just be about wins. Hope for the future has to come in to play. You have been watching football for a long time. You know when you see a player who has "it" and who leaves you flat. Same for most everybody in here. We will have to see "it" from several players.

GM..you ever hear of a guy named Albert Breer..?
Pokorny referenced Breer's Feb 2nd article several times.
The discussion below took place on 98.5 Boston sports radio (The Sports Hub)

On Feb 2nd, 2024 2:06pm Breer authored the following article,
https://985thesportshub.com/2024/02/02/albert-breer-why-alex-van-pelt-was-fired-by-the-browns/

Albert Breer: Why Alex Van Pelt was fired by the Browns
Author
February 2nd, 2024 2:06 PM

On Friday’s edition of Zolak & Bertrand, Albert Breer of SI and MMQB joined the show
to break down why Alex Van Pelt was fired by the Browns earlier this offseason.

(https://985thesportshub.com/2024/02/02/albert-breer-why-alex-van-pelt-was-fired-by-the-browns/)
The Real "REASON" why Alex Van Pelt was Fired by Cleveland Browns
He was the glue of the staff…

Albert Breer: The reason he was let go in Cleveland was because ownership and Paul DePodesta, not Kevin Stefanski, ownership and Paul DePodesta were frustrated with the progress Deshaun Watson had made. I don’t think that they really, truly… the people who made that decision, really, truly knew his value to that staff. Other people on that staff, not so much Kevin (Stefanski) but people below him, were floored when they fired him for two reasons. Number one, how do you fire the offensive coordinator after you just won 11 games with four different quarterbacks, with your fourth and fifth tackles, without Nick Chubb.

Ryan Johnston: Including at least 2 or 3 of those guys that nobody’s ever heard of, right? I mean, you’re talking about Jeff Driskel, PJ Walker, Dorian Thompson-Robinson. Like those are some of the guys he was working with.

Albert Breer: So you just went through that, right? I mean, Zo how often do you see teams survive losing one tackle, let alone three? They lost their first three tackles for the year.

Scott Zolak: You usually don’t. Look at the New England Patriots this year, you really had no tackles.

Albert Breer: There’s no tackle depth across the league period and he was able to help build an offense that was able to sustain. With Joe Flacco coming off the couch with their fourth and fifth tackles, without Nick Chubb, Kareem Hunt coming back in. So there’s that, which was one reason why people there were floored that he got fired. The other one I think is a real key though. He was the glue of that staff.

Kevin, if you know him, he’s a great guy. He’s not the most outgoing guy, you know. His personality is very dry. He’s got a good sense of humor, but he’s not like this outwardly gregarious guy. Alex was the one that held that staff together when guys were coming out, when guys were going in. He is a guy who was a unifying force in that building. And after the year the Patriots they just came off, with the state their staff was in coming out of that season. I mean, Zo you could talk about his personality, like this is a great guy.

Scott Zolak: Great guy. Pittsburgh guy. He’ll break your balls. But I always had fun with him and, just the back and forths we had when he was in Buffalo. That and I ran into a bunch after it. It’s going to be good to see him again. So, it’s good to see somebody that I actually know that I can pick out of a freakin lineup that is coming in to be part of something.

Albert Breer: The point is though, that’s what they need.

By whom pray tell?


That's like saying the atomic bomb only did moderate damage to Hiroshima.

j/c…

My hope is the Browns come to their senses, trade Garrett and acquire as much draft capital as possible. Start the rebuild. Stop pretending this team is a QB away. Berry and Stefanski need to win but the team needs to rebuild and get as much young talent on the team as possible. Two situations that do not mesh.

Holding a player hostage is not in the best of the team and throwing money at a problem to someone that doesn’t want to be here is a losing strategy.

I expect the Browns to somehow screw this up.

The Browns have him under contract through 2026. Myles signed the contract. He's not a hostage. They don't need to extend him now. He doesn't want to talk now? Fine. We get it. Last season sucked to go through for everyone. They can see how the season goes. Get the offense humming and Myles is probably happy to come back. He wants to hold out, that sucks, but that's the business. Cutting bait now just doesn't work. "The math doesn't math" even if we wanted to trade him, which we don't. If we're into the season and the offense looks awful maybe try to extreme home makeover a deal. Seeing if you can fix the offense seems like a more realistic approach than getting rid of a consistent DPOY caliber player for lottery tickets while hamstringing this year's team with the cap.

In theory what you say makes some sense. Unfortunately, the reality isn't so simple.

He doesn't want to holdout. He wants to be traded. Those are two different things. His refusal to negotiate is directly linked with him no longer wanting to be here. I can't really disagree with most of what you stated. But at some point forcing a player to stay here does more harm than good. Especially a player of Myles status. It gets a lot of attention and every player in the league will watch it play out. I think that's the exact reason we almost never see other teams handle the situation by forcing the players hand into staying there.

The future ramifications aren't good when it comes time to sign other players. And if you think that doesn't enter the minds of every player in our locker room I respectfully disagree with you.

That's the sucks part. You don't want to force him, but you're in a situation where you can't trade him without punting the season at best. You wait and hope you can change his mind. That's the box you're kind of painted in since you had already committed to him as a core player and structured his contract as such. Sure you can set the box and everything else on fire, but that's to be avoided if at all possible.

I don't know but it would seem to me that delaying for 9 months something that is inevitable appears to be foolish. As far as the cap goes, that's all on Berry. Delaying dealing Garrett because of the cap is all on Berry. Being the o-line has to be totally rebuilt within the next couple of years, holding on to Garrett when you could get a ton of picks for him knowing the offense line at a minimum is in the beginnings of a total rebuild is going to be a missed opportunity that could also set the Browns back years.

If it is inevitable why bother continuing to have a team? You already know what is going to happen and it isn't going to be good apparently.

Oh no! We're going to have to rebuild a position group. The horror! Every team has to rebuild something at some point. We'll have the next couple of years to do so. People complained we had too much invested at guard. Going young is fine. Guards go later in the draft. We should have our full complement of draft picks again. If your QB can operate in a compressed pocket, unlike Baker, you don't have to invest as much.

Who is giving these ton of picks? Sounds great. Where are they going to be at in the drafts? Show me an actual offer that has been made that also works within the cap. This fantasy is lovely. It's a fantasy. The same people that complained about Sashi now want to pull a Sashi again.

I said it a week ago: tell him we are not trading him, it would make our cap situation even worse, and if things look bleak by mid-October we’ll do our best to do right by you and trade you as long as it makes sense for the Browns. We’re not trading him to get draft capital for 2025, that would be very unwise.

Post June 2, we might, probably will, because him being a malcontent is not something we’d want around.

but I want a player and deep comp for the ‘26 and ‘27 draft if we trade him.

Or tell him, if he wants us to trade him then return the signing bonus.
That would really help with the cap hit.
Not sure if permissible by league rules