DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Looking Back: Browns 10 Lions 34 Can CLE Win?

Monday night, I banged out a shorty on the "Postgame Thoughts" that somehow didn't make it onto the board. In it, I said,

"Good news: it's always good to see the Ravens get beat.
Bad news: CLE must now play the team that just beat BAL."


What would/will it take for CLE to notch a 2-game win streak?

Yes they can win.

The defense gives them the chance to win

The Browns need an offense that can score points

An O-line that can block

Receivers that can get open

A QB that can keep drives alive

Without getting in to a long story, we will have to play good D and score more than 13 points. We all know the things that need to happen, this was my Cliffs Notes version.

With this defense playing the way it is, anything is possible.

As Judkins comes along, hopefully the overall run game will gel and be the glue that pulls this offense together.

Flacco facing the defense that sacked Lamar 7 times is a scary thought.

The Detroit offense didn't just beat the Ravens, they frustrated their offense and ran through their defense.

I hope you guys beat Detroit for us.

I am sure we will give it a go, but for whatever reason, our lifetime record against Det. Is poor. Even when we have been way better we have found ways to lose.

Yes

Many NFL pundits are saying the Browns have the best defense in the NFL. For those who say the Browns can't beat the Lions, that's what they said about the Packers game. GO BROWNS!

You guys have the defense to shut them down. I think your offense though against that Lions D line will be tough.

With what the Guardians are doing to the Tigers. If the Browns beat the Lions, Cleveland would own Detroit.

Right now you have bragging rights over us too.

It certainly "can" happen but just like last week the likelihood is slim.

The D will have to perform stellar. The run game will have to continue its progress.

When it comes to all of the talk about "Our WR's can't get open downfield" I'm not so sure I buy that. Thus far the OL hasn't been able to protect Flacco well enough to call plays that take a lot of time to run. I mean you have to protect your QB long enough for WR's to run their routes downfield and gain separation. I haven't seen where the Browns can count on that happening.

So in my estimation, as much as most fans hate to hear it would be count on the running game and short passing game to control the clock and the flow of the games. That keeps the ball out of Detroit's hands and may help them from gaining a rhythm and momentum.

Is it a long shot? Sure but it may be the Browns best and only shot.

Our lifetime record against Detroit IS awful 6-19. Also against the Ravens, Vikings, Chargers and Seahawks. At least we beat the Packers finally.

I agree. If the Browns can get to 2-3 after that beginning 5 games stretch it would be huge. While this team has the defense to beat some of the best teams in the NFL it has the offense to lose to some of the worst. I do think Judkins if he can stay healthy and out of any more trouble will get better and better each week and when teams start worrying about the Browns run game the passing game should open up more. I think the decision to trade Pickett will come back to haunt the Browns because if Flacco don't improve or gets injured I don't see either rook being able to lead this team to winning big games.

They have weapons all over the field on O and Goff is very smart. We need to be all over his grill, and luckily we have the DL to do it.

On O, we will need the run game to show further signs of life, just to get them thinking about it. It’d be nice if we could start pushing the ball downfield, get some chunk yards, but we haven’t done much of that.


Oh, but there’s more…. this might be a tougher test than GB, so we also need a break or three, a couple turnovers, good STs, to even have a shot.

Just like last week.

That is why you play the games.

I expect a breakout by the O. We might not be good on O but we can't be as bad as we seem. Well, that's what I keep telling myself.

I agree.

I will say that winning the takeovers is somewhat luck. The best you can plan on is to have a net neutral situation. Just don't have any turnovers. If the other team turns it over, wonderful.

He's backing up Geno Smith in LV. I would've liked to see more of him when he was here, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

No need to now. If this team somehow stays in contention and Joe gets hurt and the Rooks cannot win games the decision will come back to haunt the Browns and this FO.

The Packers beat the Lions pretty easily and we beat the Packers but I think this game will be much tougher. They’re at home and their O is really good with many weapons. Definitely a big challenge for us. Hope i’m wrong but I don’t see a win here.

I think our offense all comes down to our run game (shocking, I know). Detroit frustrated Henry and was able to rush Lamar.

If we can get Judkins going then they won't look anything like they did vs the Ravens.

Hope you’re right. Our O-line isn’t exactly a strength.

Of course it's always possible, but I fear you are asking for too much. I just don't see it happening especially in Detroit...

Agreed especially against a team we've historically had problems with even when they weren't as talented as they are now.

IMHO: It all rests on Schwartz/D.

CLE must find a way to smother Goff and their running attack- no small task.

Until CLE's O finds a way to take hold, our best chance is to win low-scoring games with D... and hoping for enough D-based turnovers/ST play to keep the game close... then let the chips fall as they may. At this point, I'm afraid that's the best we CLE fans can hope for.

I wish that CLE had shown us a better 3-stage attack in our 1st 3 games, but we am what we is. Dance with the one that you got, until you have the luxury of dancing with others.


I wish I had more confidence for this game.

Hey Brown fans will you be cheering for us when we play Pittsburgh?

I hope we can.

The Browns have the talent to win against anyone.
We have a top 3 defense that will keep you in games.

- Offensively, the offense has to keep improving

The OL needs to:
1. Gel, give Flacco time to throw, and be better with communication issues and assignments. These are correctable throughout a season

- Flacco needs to
1. Make the correct reads, there were 3-4 missed last game
2. Trust his OL/slow his internal clock down (not 100% his fault)

RBs

1. Keep learning/growing
2. The three rookies (including Sanders) get better in pass protection

WR/TE
1. Better route running
2. Outside of Jeudy/Njoku keep learning - to find the open spots on the field, know your routes

Passing plays
Add more bunch sets with mesh/crossing routes. We have athletic and fast receivers, use their speed to their advantage. We are over-saturating with dig and curl routes.

Which IMO is why they haven't been pushing the ball downfield. It's hard to call plays that take time to develop when the OL isn't giving you the time to execute those plays. Loosening up their D by throwing short passes may help give you that time but you have to succeed at that first before you try to call plays that take more time to develop.

Of course we are! I'm an NFL fan in general. While the Browns are certainly my favorite team the Packers are another team I really like. I generally always root for the Packers unless they are playing the Browns. And considering you're playing one of our division rivals I'm certainly rooting for you this week.

Yep, like I said. It’s been a mixture of the OL getting beat, Flacco missing the read or the OL actually giving him time, however Flacco preemptively throws early due not to trusting them to hold the blocks from previous plays.

Often times experienced QB's throw passes before the WR even breaks to the ball. There is a spot the WR is supposed to be and a time in which he is supposed to be there. It's called throwing with anticipation. Most consider that as being an asset.

lol, not what I meant. I’m aware of throwing with anticipation.

To clarify, he’s not going through his full progressions.

Example: 1st Q, they run a pass play to their right. The outside receiver runs a medium out, slot runs a 5-7 yard stop route, Judkins from the backfield goes to the flat.
The LB has a choice of covering the stop or flow to the RB. LB stops, Flacco dumps the ball to the RB.

Browns run the same formation/play the 3rd quarter. This time, the outside receiver runs a dig and gets behind the LB in zone. Flacco, whose internal clock is sped up and doesn’t go through the full read and assumes the LB will move to the Rb. The issue, Flacco throws to the stop route. The LB baits Flacco and almost picks the ball.
The main issue; he had time, if he let the route develop. A second later the dig was breaking behind the LB for a major gain. The middle of the field was wide open.

When do you seen any NFL QB's go through "his full progressions? I can tell you when. When they are either very mobile or have an OL that can protect him long enough to go through all of those progressions. Neither of those variables is true in this case. As a whole this OL has not done that and Flacco is a statue. I think the idea is to get the ball out quick and after looking at the time this OL has given Flacco protection that sounds like the best plan. If Flacco had taken the time to go through his full progressions this season he would currently be in traction.

Sigh.
Take out the damn word “Full”. My bad for adding one word. This conversation shouldn’t be that hard. I’m literally giving examples of real plays that happened to paint the picture. That play isn’t reading a whole field. It’s see the safety’s position, hike, read the LB, and throw.

I’ll just go back to what I really said and add to it. I was agreeing with you regarding the OL. I also was adding other parts to it.

There were plays open deep.

Going off memory

1. A deep post on the left breaking to the middle one on one with Bond. Flacco wanted to throw it, but Teller was being bull rushed and Flacco couldn’t step into the throw.

2. Bond on the left side off play action splitting the safeties. Flacco had time to throw and rushed through his reads from left to right.

3. Njoku running the left hash lots of room to run. He was one on one had the inside positioning on (I think it was a DB), Flacco glanced quickly then moved his eyes to the right.

Just to name a few. The issue is a combo of the OL issues and Flacco missing some reads regarding what I replied to

You do realize that you look deep when you generally get the protection to throw deep, right? I would be willing to bet that the way the plays are designed is to look short first and then your progressions lead to the deep routes later in the progression process. I don't think targets that are open AFTER you make the decision to throw the ball is a "missed read". I think it's a read you never got to in the first place because those routes were later in the progressions.

You can't miss a read that you never made in the first place. And you didn't miss a read because the player wasn't open when you made the read. You move into the next read in your progression. Please let me know when you find a QB, using the exact same criteria you are using here, that according to your standards doesn't miss any reads?

I've seen the best QB's in the NFL do exactly what you're describing here.

Is that rhetorical?

I know, right? That’s like asking if a bear poops in the woods? We will root for every team that plays the Piggsburg Squeelers unless it advantageous for the Browns.
We got ya, GBF.

I'm expecting a tough game today - when we played GB, they were getting a lot of media love. Browns were at the opposite end of that spectrum ... not a trap game exactly but we probably caught GB off gaurd. Detroit will be focused in a way GB wasn't. Plus being away from home - will the D be as suffocating?

I agree we need to grind it out - but instead of throwing a bomb on 3rd down and accepting an INT instead of a Punt ... do that on 2nd down at least a couple times. If their D only ever has to sit 12-15 yards and under without any fear of something over the top, a double move or somehting ... it just makes everything harder on O. Trust Joe to throw it away if the OL breaks down completely. Without a little risk - I don't know that we can play the mistake free football needed to only grind it out and dink/dunk. Hoping Judkins and the D have another impactful and 'monster' performance.

I like Raheim Sanders. A big bruising back. He had a good college career split between Arkansas and South Carolina.

He had an off Jr. season coming off nearly 1500 on the ground at Arkansas his Soph. season. Based on carry counts it looks like he was hurt as a JR. He came back with a good Sr. season at S Carolina.

The Browns may have the best defense in the NFL. They can shutdown the Lions run game and get pressure on Goff. If they do and the offense scores just enough points, they can shock the NFL again and beat the Lions. GO BROWNS!

no

Well this is:

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." I root for anybody they play! Same for Pukesburg, Ratbirds, and Bungles. When they play each other? I only root for whoever is on defense; don't want either to score, just bust the other team up and punish them mightily. I cannot cheer for scoring success. Other people have stronger feelings.

Go, Browns. Anyhow.

Yes, I do realize things. I even stated there was time to throw, lol.

Your bet would be wrong. I am stating off what Jake Burns is breaking down in All-22 and what I am visually seeing. I have no horse in this race, just giving basic feedback from film. Your whole paragraphs are I think and assume. No worries Pit. You don’t agree, it’s fine.

Once again, using your own standards and criteria, can you name a single NFL QB that this same thing wouldn't apply to? Plays you couldn't show this exact same thing? Or did Jake Burns not cover that part? And Jake Burns has no idea which reads would be first or the plays designated order of progressions.