DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Flacco Traded to Bengals

Someone should fire you for penning that sentence.

I kind of get the feeling that the front office has turned on Kevin. I think Haslam is pushing Shaduer and Kevin knows he is not ready. Berry has thrown in the towel on the season. Trading Newsome was just weird, dude was playing good. Now the back up QB story is all over the place. I'm not a Stephanski humper, but in a way, I think he knows that Sanders is not ready, and doesn't want to throw him in the fire and ruin him, but the front office is putting him a position where he might have to. Now the word that Zappe will be back up is turning the fans on Kevin. I think he gets fired before the year is out. Berry has got two firsts next year. I wonder how he will blow that. This is a bad team to work for, or play for. That is sad. 50+ years as a fan, and this is what I get

That is a lot to read into the information we have.... you might be right but I don't know how much influence ownership is having on the decision for qb2. In a lot of ways it does make sense for him to be qb2 even if he's not ready. What I would say is that if KS goes I think Andrew also goes I would say they are joined at the hips. I could be wrong but I can't see how or scenario where KS is fired but Berry stays. My guess is they both stay or both go.

If Sanders ain’t the second coming, ship him next; I’m tried of his fanboys’ noise… so far that’s all we’re getting from him being here. I’d love to see him be a legit FQB, but he’ll need more than pantomime on Sundays.

I agree, that’s a cluster of bad grammar at the end of that sentence. Was tired. My bad.


Losses change our mood. Too much losses changes everything.

There’s a limit what an owner will take of losses before past plans, promises and commitments flies out of the window. The same mechanisms go for Berry and Stefanski. Even the tightest cooperation changes in nature when jobs is on the line. Whatever they say in public it’s obvious that the Browns decision makers (whoever they are in the end) aren’t exactly on the same page how to move forward. When, where and how gives us that information.

The decision who’s going to be the QB2 is actually quite irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things, he will probably not even play against the Steelers but when the Browns handled this so amateurish they made it relevant and a dividing talking point. Lack of clarity, too much waffles and just extremely bad timing.

Someone will soon pay the price and last on the ladder is the HC.

You came on this website 5 years ago as a 60 year old fan from another country looking for a NFL team to root for. You posted about patients and giving the front office time. Yet two short years later when Baker is gone you all of a sudden become a Keven and Andrew BASHER and have been calling for their heads ever since. Your smelling more and more like a troll than anything else bro.

The case against Kevin Stefanski

Despite the controversial title is this guys reasoning sane and worth listening to.

We can like or dislike Kevin as much as we want but when the team continues to lose week after week critical and uncomfortable questions must be asked. According to ChatGPT(ESPN) the Browns has scored 17 point or less in 7 out of 22 games in the last two seasons. (5/17 in 2024 and 2/5 in 2025)

That’s unacceptable from any perspective.

Something needs to be changed. Strategy, Tactic, Personell, Coordinators, HC, GM or whatever.
Asking for this shouldn’t be controversial, it’s a logical conclusion to a business model that hasn’t had a functional sustainability for several years.

You don’t think there’s enough reasons for “bashing” Kevin and Andrew?

Have I been wrong regarding DSW? I was one of the first to call this crazy decision out, but hey, that’s to be a troll.
Stefanski and Berry’s results speaks for itself and probably 90% of all NFL supporters outside Cleveland share a lot of my thoughts and opinions. but once again, hey, I’m the troll.

You dislike my opinions, that’s ok and I probably dislike some of yours but the difference is that I don’t call you something personal or dismiss you as a “troll”.
How about using that approach to people who don’t share your views or maybe you should instead counter my criticism with better ideas.

I respect your opinion and you probably know a lot more about football than I do but to counter your opinion the Browns results have been bad for so long.
Why if he’s such a good HC? We can’t just continue to blame Watson or Baker for all his shortcomings and bad results.
After five plus seasons it’s just sounds like bad excuses in most people’s ears.

It isn’t a limited period of slump, we’re talking about 20 game plus and as it stands only Gabriel (and to a lesser extent Sanders) can save his job if the losses continuing without any signs of visible significant improvements.

Secondly some new information coming out lately about Stefanski’s clashes with Baker and DSW. Rightly or wrongly things like this will hurt his images, especially when Baker atm plays like an MVP and had got along fine with Sean McVay, Todd Bolwles and countless of OC’s.

Right now it looks like Mayfield probably was much less of a problem for the teams bad results than the decision makers. I honestly think that Stefanski could become a really good offensive coordinator but right now MY personal opinion is that he lacks motivational skills, authority and is too limited in human interactions with strong personalities (alpha’s)to become a really successful head coach. Time will tell but that’s the beauty of our discussions. Nobody knows until we know.

A player isn't ready until they're ready. If he had been ready earlier he would have been named the backup earlier. Try to engage your brain.


Some people have been saying that for a very long time now and he is still here. You are probably one of them. Thus far that hasn't aged well either. Or will you just keep saying that over and over again until it actually happens and then say, "See I told you do so."?

Deshaun Watson was a no go from the very first second. There’s no “what if” in that context.

Being an upgrade or not hasn’t any bearing in any future decision when you know his background. When the Browns decided to continue despite having all the necessary information, despite being initially rejected then my trust was gone. 100%. Paraphrasing Forrest- Stupid is as stupid does. According to the owner himself it was a mutual organization decision and so far has none inside Berea denied that, the participation in the worst deal in the history of NFL. This shows me that they (Berry/Stefanski) lack spine, a moral compass and common sense. Either you have it from an early age otherwise it’s probably built in your personality.

No way I support them again after such idiocy. Tell me any valid reason why I should change my mind?


Baker’s stats from 2020 aren’t as far away from his stats in 2023-2025 that it can’t be seen as natural progression and maturity by age.
As soon as he had an organization who believed in him, treated him well and let him be himself he immediately flourished and started to deliver again.

I have listen a lot to Jason Licht and Todd Bowles and their thought process around making new players successful and I haven’t seen such approach from Berry and Stefanski.
The first impression last, welcome someone with open arms, ask questions instead of telling what to do, highlight a person’s strengths instead of focusing on the negative, let the players set the expectations, engage the player in both short and long term plans and so on.

I’m not saying that the Browns didn’t do any of this but we must ask us why it worked for them and not for us. I don’t see the love, the passion, the willingness to the commitment to the person first, then the results. Just saying that Baker had been humbled and matured isn’t fruitful, it’s only a way of deflecting from our own shortcomings.

I’m 100% with you about the importance of a quality quarterback.

That’s why taking a chance on an undersized quarterback is an unnecessary gamble when you have other draft picks with similar abilities but with a higher potential because of height and physical advantages. I believe in Dillon Gabriel to be a decent back up but I just can’t see him as a future FQB taking his team to the SB. IMO he’s a stop gap until the next draft and probably the ultimate reason Stefanski get fired.

Flo-ho doesn’t understand the 20/20 hindsight thing.

It’s easy to say now that it was a huge failure, the DW trade and all that . Yes we all know it was a swing and a miss.

The coaches see the players EVERY DAY. The coaches have played the game and taught the game. They see and watch the development of the players. Why does no one accept this ?? The last time the fans saw Sanders, he stunk up the house in preseason, based on that exhibition, I would have cut the 5th round draft pick. Obviously, the coaches saw something in him that I did not and decided to keep him, but that does not mean he deserves to be the starter.

I live outside of Cleveland and that 90 percent number is made up bullcrap. I hate to tell you but making up things to post IS TROLLING. So if the shoe fits wear it my friend.

Sort of j/c here...I believe that ^ as well...I have also become of the opinion that the guys who 'see the players everyday' don't really know what they are seeing based on how some critical things have panned out.

All TC of '24 we were repeatedly told that Watson gives us the best chance to win. He was so ready that he didn't need to take a single snap in any pre-season games. The players that saw him every day surely saw something different.

All TC of '25 we were repeatedly told that Pickett is here to compete as the starter...that they really like his skills and think he could strive in a KS offense. Then they drafted (2) QBs (later in the draft as QBs go) and Pickett was traded before the season started

So...after only (4) games in the season, now BOTHh of the seasoned-veteran-presence QBs we acquired to compete as starters are gone.

It's pretty easy for a person to conclude that the guys who 'see the players everyday' really aren't good at evaluating what they see - especially QBs.

Lastly, the simple fact that we don't know who REALLY instigated the Baker and Watson fiascos - as they were joint consensus decisions - is actually the crux of the entire issue with this group. Just who really IS in charge? I think the answer always goes back to the consensus BS...and it is apparent that that tact isn't working.

Whatever makes you feel comfortable but I rather discuss the reason why this organization is underperforming season after season.
Why do we have to find excuses for every setback? Isn’t incompetence or bad decision making valid explanations enough?

It’s five plus seasons now and we’re still worse than when they started in 2020. At some point accountability must be part of the equation.

I don’t care who’s fault it is but when the GM and the HC is part of the decision making, part of the planning, part of the results we see on the field it’s only natural to discuss their part in this. Am I wrong?

You and many others think that they’re doing fine (or whatever word you prefer) and I don’t. It’s that simple.
From what I can see on social media, talk shows and internet most people agree with me. You think that’s not correct. So let’s agree to disagree on that part.

I don’t think you will change your mind so I’m not trying to convince you and others anything, I just sharing my thoughts and sometimes my emotions makes me go too far but on other hand the criticism could be much more brutal without being incorrect.

Is that approach ok for you?

The reason is very simple... we traded for Watson. That set us back not just the three seasons we lost all the draft picks, but for a few years longer as the effects of losing all those picks is still hurting us and we will still feel it for another year or two. It's that simple. It's a fact.


As far as decision making I will be the first to say both AB and Kevin have made mistakes (as have every other GM and head coach in the History of the NFL) They have both also made some great moves. Where we disagree is I realize nobody in history is right 100 percent of the time I understand that. While you and some others around here act like our guys are the only ones who are not 100 percent correct 100 percent of the time, and you act like kids crying because you don't get your way..


It already is. It's just that there is no lynch mob with pitch forks storming Berea to take out our front office like a few folks want. Blowing up the front office and coaching staff every other year is what has lead to our record since 1999, yet you want to see more of that


LMAO ah yes the folks who make money by posting misleading posts just to make a buck, or run a podcast from Moms basement, or who watch one game a year and think they are experts.



Any approach you take is fine by me. I will either agree, disagree, or call you out if you make crap up. Any way you chose it's not personal with me.

You do realize Baker's own words on this topic are noting of the sort, right? You understand that Baker said he needed to go through what he did in order to mature and be the QB he is now, right?

I suppose you must believe that know more about Baker than Baker knows about Baker.

Someone inside Berea couldn’t accept that Bakers injury was part of him underperformed in 2021.
Someone inside Berea couldn’t fully handle Bakers strong personality.

Someone inside Berea thought that trading for Watson was a good idea.
Someone inside Berea didn’t factor Watson’s past as valid in the evaluation of his future contribution.
Someone inside Berea thought that giving up multiple draft picks over three season's and paying a questionable character $230m guaranteed was an excellent idea.

I can go on with all the other failed quarterbacks.
The Myles Garrett situation.
All the other questionable characters that Berry has either signed or picked.

I agree 100% that it’s impossible to get everything right but at the other hand the above is extreme on the other side of the spectrum.
Andrew Berry has made some great picks, especially his last ones in 2025. Nobody denies that but if we factor 2025 as a success then we have to factor the failures too.

Lastly, the most important thing is our results. That’s the only accurate measurement that nobody can dispute.
Last season and the beginning of this season the team has been in a free fall. If I read the signs correctly we seem to be in a rebuild again. That’s a huge failure from my perspective.

I read what you say, I understand, I partly agree with lot of it even if I don’t agree with the crucial part but that’s the beauty of being a supporter.
Let’s hope for the best today and that Gabriel improve from last game. Peace brother.

That's nothing close to the way Baker described it. Once again you think you know more about it than Baker does.

Everyone in Berea new Baker was still immature and selfish in 2021.
Most inside Berea had no problem with Bakers fire and Personality.
Almost everbody inside Berea thought that trading for Watson was a good idea.
Someone inside Berea didn't factor in that Watson either wouldn't or couldn't get the job done on the field. (How do you Coach a guy who can't be Coached) I Believe Jimmy when he said the blame lays at the top.

Even if everything you say is true, the top is not the one who is going to be held responsible for the W/L record. Someone, either Stefanski, Berry or both, convinced owner Haslam that they couldn't coach Mayfield and wouldn't win with him. So as a group (so they say) they pursued current top 5 QB Watson and mortgage the team for him. Now, 4 years later, Mayfield is a top 5 QB three years running. Watson coming to Cleveland has thus become a cellar dweller QB only fantasizing about top 5 status.

The only two constants here is that Berry and Stefanski have both been unable to get top 5 performance out of two different players both of whom have clearly shown that capability. Whether that came through eventual progression or past performance - they have failed in both instances. With their documented record now over 6 seasons, WHY would anyone even consider giving these two a high first round draft pick at QB? I don't think Haslam is a gluten for punishment but keeping these two guys makes me wonder every day.

I don’t share your view but you probably knew that.
Btw, did you see anything from Dillon against the Steelers that made your juices flow?

Another stupid move by the Browns. Casting off experience for rookie talent. Another lost season self inflicted. Season ticket holders gotta be like, we’re done with this ish.

Well Pit, I’m not going to say “I told you so” but I will at least give you the chance to recalibrate your initial standpoint because right now it’s looking more and more likely that he will be fired somewhere between tomorrow until at the end of the season. It’s not only about him losing games, the problems are deeper than that. Unfortunately.

I really don’t think the main issue is KS as well. You’re probably correct, it goes much deeper than that. He’s toast.