DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Iran War II

Only the U.S. and Israel are actively engaging Iran. If in fact as you say, " "Good people" doing nothing is how "evil" wins.", that shows who you are describing the "good people are" and every other planet on the globe wants evil to win. Don't try to blame me when you step in it.

When your answer to an entire branch of government being created to combat one of your key points is "they're not perfect" it falls short of logic and has reached a level of desperation.

It's nice to know you keep up with the messaging being sent out of Russia. Which I don't believe for a second that you do.

Nobody is gaslighting you. Showing the absurdity of that "voice inside your head", which is actual gaslighting is something it appears you should consider.

War mongers have led to the deaths of millions of people throughout the worlds history. You dismiss the DHS, you dismiss that it has been Israel, not us who have been engaged with Iran and who has tried to get others to join them in a war against them for decades now. And it's not Israel as a nation I have a problem with. It's Benjamin Netanyahu and his government. After 30 years he found his sucker in trump. We both know this. And it doesn't take a detective to figure that out. I'm sorry you support fighting Benjamin Netanyahu's war for him. Trump does too.

Your BS logic is just that, BS. "Every other planet on the globe" makes no sense. Wanting evil to win was said by no one but you. People are occupied elsewhere. Everyone doesn't have to do everything. Yet, problems have to be addressed by some of those that are able.

No, your simplistic we have DHS so we don't have to worry about terrorists is faulty logic. You try to reduce everything to simplicity even when those reductions break away from reality. Most things aren't simple. Just because you seemingly can't process complexity, that doesn't mean that the complexity doesn't exist.

I know you don't believe me. Again, that's a you issue and has no real relevance as evidence in an argument.

Denial and rewriting history are classic gaslighting tactics. As are manipulation, lying, and blame shifting, which you keep trying to do.

Dude, I served. I know the price. I'm not a war monger. At the same time, I still believe the price sometimes has to be paid because inaction can have its own cost. And, the cost of nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorists is potentially too large for me to ignore.

I don't dismiss the DHS. Their job is just effectively impossible. From the DHS own site: "While DHS employs a number of concrete metrics to track border security operations, it is difficult to precisely quantify illegal flows because illegal border crossers actively seek to evade detection, and some flows are undetected. [...] Since 2001, border patrol and technology resources at the border have increase dramatically, including resources as a result of the 2006 Secure Border Act. Both traditional border metrics and the preliminary findings based on new indicators indicate that crossing the border illegally has gotten more difficult since then, but illegal entries continue." link

I don't support Netanyahu in general. I support trying to keep HEU out of the hands of terrorists and away from a radical government whose official stance "advocates for the total elimination of the Israeli state." The reductionist stance of calling it "Netanyahu's war" seems short sighted and disingenuous. Why don't you call it the Islamic Republic of Iran's jihad? That's still too simplistic for my liking, but it seems more accurate than your laying everything at the feet of Netanyahu, if not by much.

You don't know many of the things that you think you do. You just believe them, or at least pretend to.

Trump’s Iran deal: peace or surrender?
The emerging US-Iran agreement would grant international legitimacy to Tehran while leaving its missile program and proxy network intact, critics argue; The deal could strengthen Iran’s regional influence, undermine opposition hopes and weaken efforts to disarm Hezbollah and Hamas | Opinion
Ben-Dror Yemini
Ben-Dror Yemini|04:25


We are at a historic moment. On Sunday, perhaps, an agreement will be signed that amounts to a betrayal of the Iranian people and a surrender to the Iranian regime. True, not everything is yet clear, but on several key issues the agreement is already evident.

First, the Iranian regime will receive international recognition. Second, there is no reference to ballistic missiles. That means Iran will continue to pose a regional threat, while Israel will remain under a ballistic missile threat. Third, there is no separation between Iran and its terrorist proxies. The implication is that Hezbollah, the Houthis, Shiite militias in Iraq and, of course, Hamas will continue operating under Iranian sponsorship and with Iranian funding.
כותרות מהעולם על טראמפ וההסכם עם איראן
Headlines from around the world about Trump and the Iran deal

Fourth, the emerging agreement is a betrayal of the Iranian people. They took to the streets in an effort to overthrow the ayatollahs' regime and gain a measure of freedom. Trump encouraged them to continue their struggle. He promised help was on the way. They listened. Tens of thousands were killed. They wanted to believe that the bloodshed would lead to the downfall of the regime of terror. The greater the expectations, the greater the disappointment.
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Any agreement includes American recognition of a regime that is far stronger and far more radical. The future of the Middle East in general and of the Iranian people in particular has never seemed so hopeless. It is no longer clear whether moral values still have any significance in international affairs. What is clear is that they have been buried.
The Iranians have been abandoned. So have the Lebanese. They had begun to feel that they might finally be freeing themselves from Iranian domination, which, through Hezbollah, has devastated Lebanon over recent decades and driven it into bankruptcy. Lebanon has the potential to recover. Many countries are willing to help. But there is little chance of that happening. An agreement with Iran ensures that Hezbollah will continue to bring destruction and ruin. The same applies to Hamas.
There is also a shared sense of destiny and a common experience of standing against powerful forces. Hamas was not defeated after two years of war. Iran was not defeated after 40 days of bombardment. The result is a boost in morale for all branches of the axis of evil and terror.
Under previous decisions, both Hezbollah and Hamas were supposed to disarm. An agreement with Iran effectively destroys the chances of that happening.
Assuming the agreement ultimately signed resembles the American version of the reported understandings, it will closely resemble the 2015 nuclear deal, the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA). That was the agreement that enabled Iran's regional expansion.
Trump himself repeatedly described that deal as bad and deeply flawed, insisting that he would secure a far better agreement. In 2018, he withdrew from the deal and imposed severe sanctions on Iran. Those sanctions inflicted significant damage on the Iranian economy.
Yet one of Biden's first moves after entering the White House in January 2021 was to reverse those sanctions. And now? Trump is stepping into Biden's shoes. At best, he is returning to a similar agreement, which is a serious mistake. He is also returning to sanctions relief, which is an even greater mistake. That will allow Iran to advance on other fronts, including ballistic missile development, the arming of its proxies and regional subversion.
The West has exposed itself in all its weakness. When it comes to the Palestinians, the free world erupts in outrage. When it comes to the Iranians, there is silence.
By any conceivable measure, Iranians suffer far more than Palestinians. Just as the Iranian people suffer under a regime that crushes them and prioritizes vast investments in the machinery of death, Palestinians suffer under a leadership that prefers terrorism over reconciliation and prosperity.
Remarkably, the free world shields the Iranian regime in much the same way that it effectively aligns itself with Hamas. Demonstrations target Israel and the United States, which are fighting these regimes of oppression.
Only in April, Iran was elected to one of the United Nations' most important committees, which oversees human rights, women's status and counterterrorism issues. Canada, France, Spain, Norway, the Netherlands, Australia, the United Kingdom, Finland, Austria and Switzerland supported the appointment.
Many among us hoped that the special relationship between Netanyahu and Trump would lead to unprecedented coordination. That did happen on the tactical level. The joint strikes against Iran were undoubtedly an achievement.

But tactical cooperation did not translate into strategic alignment. At the strategic level, there is scarcely a mistake that Trump did not make. The ultimate goal of eliminating the Iranian threat will have to be left to his successor.
And one can only hope that successor will do better.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/b1pyu3izzl

"Every other nation on the globe." Hopefully that clears up any misunderstanding you didn't have to begin with.

All you keep doing is coming up with far fetched conclusions which have very little if any chances of ever happening to justify war. Just like every other war monger has done throughout history.

And let me remind you, who the terrorist is depends on your life experience and perspective. If your family was bombed and killed in Iraq by American jets only find out America's cause for war was false, who would you consider the terrorists to be? If you lived in Gaza when Netanyahu said he was going to target and wipe out Hamas and then he carpet bombed your entire neighborhood killing your family which in no way is associated with Hamas, who would you consider the terrorists to be? If the U.S, teamed up with great Britain to overthrow your elected government and installed their own puppet to run your nation who did great harm and stole from it who would you consider the terrorists to be?

The world view and nations involved in dealing with us and some of our allies aren't as simplistic as you make it sound either. I understand the view you have formed as some vision of how you determined we should be seen. Or at the very least how you have determined you see us. That we are the good guys and Captain America and all of that. It's not that cut and dry. As you would say, it's more complicated than that.

Although Israel has not officially confirmed having nuclear weapons, most of the globe knows full well that it does. The most widely held belief is they have about 90 nuclear war heads. Depending on who you see the terrorists as, if you were their neighbors and have been at conflict with them for decades now, you may feel they have shown themselves to be the terrorists and your existence may very well depend on you too having such a capability.

Do you think a part of the answer would to also be disarming Israel's nuclear capability?

Your attempts at trying to create and come up with far fetched ideas and scenarios in order to justify this war doesn't somehow make it more complicated than it seems.

And you don't know as much as you seem to think you do either.

My conclusions might seem far fetched to the short sighted and willfully oblivious. But I've laid out the logic multiple times and you keep ignoring it.

You keep talking about some generic "war." I'm talking about not allowing unaccounted for HEU.

I'd consider the ones using children suicide bombers and IEDs the terrorists. Or the governments holding mass executions and carrying out chemical attacks on their own citizens.

Do I like everything Israel or the US does? Of course not. But at the same time, we're not chanting Death to Iran en masse. Hamas was literally abducting and killing civilians on purpose. There's a difference, even if I don't like the overly high tolerance for collateral damage, either.

I don't try to make it sound simple. I admit the complexity and multitude of factors.

I don't particularly concern myself with how other people see things. I believe in doing the right things over the convenient things regardless of external pressure. That's not to say others aren't entitled to their views, but if those views seem wrong, I will say so. If the view makes sense, I take it into consideration.

I'm not saying we are Captain America and the good guys. I'm saying I think we should try to be the good guys. It is complicated.

Yes, I think everyone should get rid of their nuclear arsenals. But, I don't think that will actually happen.

I'm not justifying "the war." Daily dealing with terrorists for decades has made the Israelis less than ideally discriminant.

What I'm saying is more HEU is bad. HEU and terrorists in proximity is worse. Someone should make sure those things stay separate. If no one else will, it looks like it's up to us. Unfortunately, Trump is making a mess of it.

I don't claim to just know things. I present my reasoned thoughts with the disclaimer that I know that I don't know everything. At the same time, I will point out things that you claim to know that are factually incorrect.

Evil is winning if you lean communist.

And there is! Liberals hate our country. The greatest country the world has ever seen. Also, to call Israel a terrorist country is laughable. They are an Allies of the US and are surrounded by Countries that want nothing more than for Isreal to no longer exist. Your "hate" is really coming thru in your writing.

Your comprehension level is so low that basic English files over your head.

I said depending on where you live and your life experience who you view as the terrorists may vary. I get it. English is hard.

At least total ignorance isn't coming through in my writing.

We get it. You consider anyone that doesn't support unbridled capitalism or supports U.S. policies that are good for all the people are your enemy. What a sad admission.

I will say this again. You seem to think that Iran saying "death to America" for over 47 years now is a justification for war. At least you have mentioned it as over and over again.

Yet Netanyahu has been calling for the total destruction of Iran for over 3 years now. Netanyahu has nukes. Iran doesn't. If you were in that same position wouldn't you think that your nations survival may hinge by making sure you had nukes too? I know "I don't particularly concern myself with how other people see things." is one of your talking points and that is a convenient talking point to help you avoid answering a bunch of "complicated issues", but at the same time if you never look at both sides of the coin you never see the entire picture.

I'm with you to the point I don't want to see Iran get nuclear weapons either. But I try to see things from a world view, from behind everyone's eyes and not just my own.


Wow. That's a pretty dismissive way of bypassing the reality that Netanyahu carpet bombed entire civilian neighborhoods purposefully slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent women and children in Gaza. Some might even call that genocide. So yeah, I get how you "wouldn't like it". It sounds a lot like some of the very acts you say qualify others to be called terrorists. Like I said before, who the terrorists are, are in the eye of the beholder. It seems you look at it from the view if one side does it "you don't like it". When the other side does it they are terrorists.

And lastly, don't you think our actions in Iran, and actually over the past few decades in the middle east, would create more terrorists than it would destroy? I think one needs to ask themselves if you had nothing to do with being a part of a rogue government or any terrorist organization and a nation carpet bombed your neighborhood or was directly responsible for killing your wife and children, what would you be willing to do in order to get even then? And how would you feel about the country that supplied those bombs knowing what would be done withe them?

Sometimes the actions of our government and the government of Israel makes the very things they claim to be trying to wipe out by using a war machine only increase and multiply the problem.

It will be very interesting to see what the peace deal ultimately includes (and doesn't include).

Trump will have to do significantly better than the treaty Obama did with Iran. Trump depicted that as a very low bar, but I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks we are negotiating from a position of strength this time.

Trump told the Iranian people "the hour of your freedom is at hand" prior to the first strikes. I'll be very surprised if there are any clear victories in the upcoming agreement.

From everything I've seen this is little more than a temporary deal that qualifies more like a cease fire extension for 60 days than a peace deal. The "hard parts of the deal" would still need to be negotiated and settled over that 60 day period.........................

U.S. and Iran reach deal to extend ceasefire and open strait

The U.S. and Iran agreed to a framework extending their ceasefire for 60 days, with a formal signing ceremony expected Friday and nuclear talks to follow.

Why it matters: The agreement could reopen the Strait of Hormuz, ease pressure on global energy markets and create a window for negotiations over Iran's nuclear program.

The memorandum of understanding would mark the war's biggest diplomatic breakthrough and buy time for negotiations over unresolved nuclear questions.

The big picture: The agreement is designed to restore shipping through the Strait of Hormuz, which before the war handled about 20% of global oil and liquefied natural gas. But it leaves key nuclear issues to be negotiated over the next two months.

Fully reopening the strait may not happen immediately. Mine-clearing, repairing infrastructure and guaranteeing security could take time before a full return to pre-war shipping volumes.

Driving the news: Pakistani Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif announced Sunday the framework agreement to reopen the strait and launch nuclear talks after 107 days of war.

President Trump said soon after the U.S. would lift its naval blockade, while Iran was expected to reopen the strait, with more detailed nuclear negotiations to follow.
The agreement was expected to be signed electronically on Sunday after mediation by Pakistan and Qatar, but it was not immediately clear whether that had happened.

What we're watching: Sharif and Iranian officials said the formal signing ceremony would be Friday in Switzerland.

Trump said on Truth Social that the opening of the strait would take place only "upon the signing of the Deal on Friday, for purposes of mine removal."

Iran's Supreme National Security Council said "the war and military operations on all fronts, including Lebanon, will end immediately and permanently beginning tonight."

The statement added: "Negotiations on a final agreement will take place only after the other side has implemented its commitments under the memorandum of understanding."

Breaking it down: The agreement calls for the U.S. and Iran to negotiate over Iran's nuclear enrichment and the disposal of its highly enriched uranium during the 60-day window.

The U.S. will discuss sanctions relief and the release of frozen Iranian funds, with relief expected to be tied to Tehran's compliance.
The ceasefire covers fighting between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon, which flared up again Sunday.

State of play: The agreement comes after a volatile final stretch. Israel struck Hezbollah targets in Beirut hours before the expected signing, prompting Iranian threats to walk away from the deal.

Iran made operational preparations for an attack on Israel, according to U.S. and Israeli officials.
U.S. negotiators, together with Qatari and Pakistani mediators, scrambled to avoid an Iranian attack on Israel that would likely have generated a harsh Israeli response and potentially derailed the deal, but Tehran's officials ended up holding off.

What they're saying: "The Deal with the Islamic Republic of Iran is now complete. Congratulations to all! I hereby fully authorize the toll free opening of the Strait of Hormuz, and, simultaneously herewith, authorize the immediate removal of the United States Naval blockade. Ships of the World, start your engines," Trump wrote on Truth Social.

Minutes earlier, Sharif posted on X that a peace deal between the U.S. and Iran "has been REACHED," adding: "Both sides have declared the immediate and permanent termination of military operations on all fronts, including in Lebanon."

Sharif said the deal was "now in place."

Iran's deputy foreign minister Kazem Gharibabadi told Iranian media that the text of the memorandum of understanding had been finalized.

Some of the revisions Tehran asked to make in the text of the MOU were accepted after Sunday's escalation in Lebanon, he said.
Gharibabadi said threats from Iran's armed forces "helped facilitate progress in the negotiations" and "contributed to finalizing the text."
He said this advanced several issues that remained unresolved during negotiations. "The armed forces were prepared to deliver a decisive response," Gharibabadi said.
Gharibabadi said the negotiations over the text continued until around 5pm ET. Fifteen minutes later, Sharif announced the deal.

What's next: Sharif said Pakistan and the other mediators would "facilitate a series of meetings this week," followed by technical talks.

The sides have given themselves 60 days to reach a technical agreement on how to down-blend Iran's highly enriched uranium and both freeze and monitor its nuclear program going forward.
That's a tall order given how difficult it was to reach the much less detailed memorandum of understanding.
The U.S. side insists Iran is incentivized to reach a final agreement because sanctions relief and access to frozen funds depend on progress on the nuclear front. Some hawks in the U.S. and Israel worry there will never be a final deal and the war will end with the nuclear questions unresolved.

https://www.axios.com/2026/06/14/us-iran-ceasefire-extended-hormuz-reopen-trump

So far it seems that Iran and the U.S can't even agree what is and what is not included in the current deal that is to be signed later this week.

Yes, "death to America" being promoted by an unelected Supreme Leader with a lifetime appointment is one of the many reasons that factor into my thinking. His calling us the "Great Satan" is another problematic stance for me. Terrorist supporting religious zealots with Nukes is not something I want to see.

No, Netanyahu hasn't called for the total destruction of Iran. That's more bad propaganda. He's called for dismantling their ballistic missile and nuclear programs, and wants to get rid of the "terror regime." He wants the Iranian people to have a legitimate democracy. It's the Iranian government that advocates for the complete elimination of the Israeli state.

You're the one that insists on only looking at one side of things. I try to balance both. I sympathize with the Iranian people and those in Gaza, but the terrorist supporting theocracy in charge is a step too far for me. Israel isn't trying to wipe out Iran. They just want the constant proxy/terrorist attacks to stop.

The problem is you are not actually seeing it from their eyes. Your projecting your view from what you perceive as from their shoes. They're not you, though. Not everyone thinks like you. Not everyone has the same values and experiences as you. Some people are just "evil"/unapologetically murderous.

Is it dismissive or is it just not really the point of the thread? I see it as a separate issue. But it seems that you want to focus on your "one side of the coin" instead of addressing the actual topic of the thread, which is the war in Iran. You want to start a thread about Israeli genocide, go for it. I'll leave you to it.

No, I don't think our actions create more terrorists than they destroy. I think that's a message that originated as propaganda by terrorists and those that support them, and gained traction to grow out of all proportion with reality. Plenty of people have horrible things happen to them without becoming terrorists. Plenty of people in Gaza had horrible things done to them by Hamas without becoming terrorists in return. Unfortunately, there are terrorists, and something must be done about them. Doing nothing would only allow them to flourish as those in Gaza have learned to their detriment. The Iranian government promotes terrorism intentionally. I have problems with that.

Do I wish we lived in a better world? Sure, but we don't. Do I wish Hamas didn't place military/terrorist infrastructure underneath densely populated civilian areas? Yes. Do I wish there were quick and easy diplomatic solutions to turn "evil" into "good?" Sure, but real life isn't a fairy tale.