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I watch him play and just can see too many poor throws and faults. I know we haven't seen as much of Quinn, but I don't see the problems in him that I see in Anderson.
 Are you SERIOUS ? I understand people not wanting to pay him what Romo got, and I see flaes in his game as well. For you to say you don't see the same flaws in Quinn (who only played one series all year) is foolish.
#gmstrong
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Just clickin
For comparison sake this is what the NFL Players Association site says is the compensation for 2008 and the 2009 years for these QBs:
P. Manning 11.5 mil 14 mil
E. Manning 8.45 mil 8.95 mil
Favre 12 mil 13 mil
Palmer 7.75 mil 9.5 mil
Brady 5 mil 5 mil
Rivers 5.75 mil 6.5 mil
Schaub 4.95 mil 6.95 mil
Romo 6.5 mil 7 mil
Delhomme 3.69 mil 5.325 mil
Kitna 1.95 mil 1.95 mil
Brees 4.8 mil 9.8 mil
Pennington 4.8 mil 5.7 mil
McNabb 6.3 mil 9.2 mil
Roethlisberger 1.3565 mil 1.707 mil
Hasselbeck 5.75 mil 5.25 mil
Bulger 7 mil 6.5 mil
Young 1.5 mil 2.16 mil
I'd say a contract worth about 7 mil a year would be more then enough compensation.
#gmstrong
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Now what part of the following makes you think that I believe we will or should pay DA the BIG BUCKS! Quote:
Quote:
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My question is, how many posters "honestly feel" that Savage will dole out a four year, 45 mil. contract for DA?
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I don't think he will,, JMO,,,
Yet, I still find it hard, to some extent, to understand why so many want to kick this guy to the curb so readily when there isn't a PROVEN QB in the nest to take over...
Having said that, I honestly feel that Quinn will be just fine.. My guess (and it's only a guess) is that he will be at least as good as DA so we lose nothing except the security of having two guys that can start for an NFL Team that is trying to make the next step forward.
But I still have a problem with the ease of which some would cast him out for even MORE unknowns... Cracks me up..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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If he wants this much money I say tender him the one year contract and let him walk after that unless someone really wants him than they will give us something for him.
I still question his value at qb and I think he has over-valued himself a bit.
savagedawgs...I believe the odds are that your scenario is pretty close to what will happen.
We need to remember, it's not Anderson dictating the contract demands, it's his agents.
It's so easy to make Anderson out as the bad guy, making ridiculous contract demands, but again, it's his agents.
Will the Browns play the game, and make a serious offer to DA's agents?
I do believe Savage will attempt to work out an affordable contract but not in the range of Romo money.
At that point, the two sides are at an impasse and the Browns would likely tender Anderson and wait to see if another team is interested.
Hopefully, Savage could find a way to keep Anderson from going to the Rats. Looking at several draft boards, all have the Ravens choosing a QB with their #8 pick.
If the Browns tender an offer, best case scenario for the Browns would be one of the other teams needing a QB acquire Anderson...the Dolphins at #1...the Falcons at #4..Bears at #14.
Bottom line..I seriously doubt the Browns want to carry two franchise QB contracts. Anderson's agents realize this is Anderson's shot at the big time money and they have to try to take advantage of the situation (for their client).
Another factor that may figure into the equation, Anderson's chances of being "they guy" at QB. Ask yourself this...if you were Anderson, would you want to sign a contract with the Browns knowing that Brady Quinn has a shot at being the Browns starting QB too. An incentive laden contract could back fire on Anderson if Quinn beats him out of the starting job.
There is so much information that we fans are not aware of that can influence the situation...if Savages has had inquiries from other teams about acquiring Anderson, or not?...
Savage and the Browns get the first shot at signing Anderson...the ball is in our court now...
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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We need to remember, it's not Anderson dictating the contract demands, it's his agents.
It's so easy to make Anderson out as the bad guy, making ridiculous contract demands, but again, it's his agents.
Well, I've never had an agent.. or been an agent, so I won't profess to know exactly how it works.. but IMHO, in theory at least, the agent works FOR the athlete, not the other way around. If my agent was making ridiculous demands or possibly putting me in a position I didn't want to be in, then he would either change or I would find another agent. So while it may be "easy to make DA out to be the bad guy".. that's exactly what I will do because in my opinion, the agent is speaking on behalf of DA...
yebat' Putin
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Brady 5 mil
DA wants more than Brady makes next year? I know there's more to the story, but that's just wrong.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Quote:
Brady 5 mil
DA wants more than Brady makes next year? I know there's more to the story, but that's just wrong.
It has more to do with the new CBA and the new inflated contracts (all this salary cap space all these teams have is gonna fill up real quick and it'll all be relative again...), if Brady's contract was up now he'd easily be the highest paid player in the league.
Watch Roethlisberger's next contract...it's gonna be a doozy.
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All Pro
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Brady also took less money than he was worth in order to allow the Patriots to put better players around him. Brady's deal was still 6 years, $60 million. Quote:
Signed a six-year, $60 million contract extension through 2010. The deal included $26.5 million in bonuses that were paid in the first two years. 2008: $5 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2009: $5 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2010: $3.5 million (+ $3 million roster bonus), 2011: Free Agent. Cap charges: $14.626 million (2008).
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=nfl&id=1163
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Just clicking
All said and done...when Savage puts up 15-20 mil for 3 years - I think this is proof enough that DA is in no way a Bum...but still by putting up just 15-20 mil and the years (3) it also shows that we have questions on whether he can improve or not.
Figure the signing bonus would be around 6 mil...that means his salary would be 9-14 mil over the 3 years. Romo money? I think was unwise for Romo and I don't think DA is as good as Romo.
Its pretty much smacks us in the face as long as we are looking at a 3 year lets see what you got contract and DA is looking at a 5+ year I'm your Franchise QB contract. Nothing will get done and he will be tendered. If he gets no bites he will come down to the Savage contract and try to negotiate off of that. Obviously if teams think he's all that and offer him Franchise QB contracts - he'll sign one and we'll have to match or get compensation.
As for compensation...any team who does not have a franchise QB and feel DA is such a QB...will not hesitate to give up the compensation.
We gave up a 1st and 2nd for BQ as a prospect to become a franchise QB. DA has NFL film on him and a NFL history - if big contract is offered the compensation means nothing.
Again...I sure hope we get a first and a 3rd - I'd like for us to get another impact rookie (1st) and possibly move up with our 2 thirds for another 2nd rounder....It would be nice to get 3 impact rookies on top of what we spend in FA.
Thats been in my master plan as a fan from the day we drafted BQ - as mentioned I didn't have a clue it would be DA I thought it would be Frye but turned out exactly how I had hoped it to be. Not cause of Hate, not cause of Love of certain players.
Purely cause its the best thing for our Browns.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Just a general comment .......... Wow ... there is always so much overreaction whenever initial contract proposals are exchanged ...... and a few details come out. Same stuff happened when Winslow and Quinn held out .... people freaked out .... some said we should trade them on the spot ..... These are initial contract proposals ..... and of course Anderson and his people are going to try and build up his value as much as possible. Personally, I would think that $6-7 million per year is a pretty substantial start showing one helluva belief in Anderson's ability. As things stand right now, I suspect that Anderson will wind up with a 4 year deal. The team offered 3, he and his agent want 5 ..... 4 splits the difference....... (a time honored tradition in contract negotiations) and the team can always sweeten the deal by making year 4 voidable under certain conditions. If I had to guess on total value, I would guess that somewhere around $35 million gets the deal done. (depending on guarantees) However .... just like everyone else, we'll just have to wait and see what happens. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Anyone watching Bruce Drennan right now? Mary Kay is on as the guest.
Basically a lot of what we're talking about here is how the deal is going down, DA and his agent want to be the franchise guys while the organization is taking the stance of "hey honey, I really do like you, but I don't wanna marry you, let's keep going steady."
She also said that many agents around the league believe Romo's contract isn't exactly a "good" deal and that he should have gotten more, and that will factor into the DA deal (but this is nothing new to most of us).
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Another factor that's being kind of overlooked here is this...
Just based on what we're seeing with the Anderson negotiations, it says a lot about how the organization feels about Quinn.
None of us know for sure, but he must be doing some really good things in practice and the film room. If he were struggling I think we'd be more inclined to lock DA up long term and move Quinn, IMO.
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You are a trip.  You wrote this part yourself: From today's PD, Anderson wants Romo money. $30 million guaranteed????? Ohhhhhh boy... You then highlighted this part: The Anderson camp is believed to be using the new contract of Dallas quarterback Tony Romo as a guide. Romo received a six-year deal for $67.5 million. The operative number is $30 million guaranteed. Do you see the word "believed" in there? Do you know what "believed" means? Do you understand that it is not yet a fact? Yet, you ignore these comments completely: "I don't know," Anderson said about these subjects. "I can't really complain. I just have to keep plugging away at it. It'll all work itself out." and "I don't know if it will get that far. We're just in the beginning right now," Anderson said. Do you know what quotation marks represent? If not, let me explain......they are the actual quotes from DA. Didn't they teach you in your Media Relations class that direct quotes are more accurate than writer's opinions? Dude, quit trying to be coy. Quit trying to mask your obvious bias. It isn't working.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Quote:
Another factor that's being kind of overlooked here is this...
Just based on what we're seeing with the Anderson negotiations, it says a lot about how the organization feels about Quinn.
None of us know for sure, but he must be doing some really good things in practice and the film room. If he were struggling I think we'd be more inclined to lock DA up long term and move Quinn, IMO.
More crap. A month ago, you and other members of Brady's Brats were talking about how there was no way that DA would be back next year. Then, Savage and RAC both came out saying DA was the starter. We have also offered him a three year deal. That's a long way from not wanting him at all..........as you guys were professing.
And what in God's name are you thinking when you say that the Browns would move BQ if he wasn't excelling in practice and in meetings? Do you really think they would give up on him already.........no matter what he has done in practice and in meetings? 
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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It's like I said all along... the franchise does NOT think DA is the long-term solution. If he was, this would be over and done with. We think of Anderson as someone who may/may not become something and is worth keeping around for a couple years to have compete with Brady. Anderson's camp views him as the next great "unheralded" QB and wants to get him a multi-year deal (probably because they consider him somewhat of a fluke). Here's how it's going to play out... - We offer DA a contract shorter than he wants and for less than he wants - DA's camp counters with a Romo-type deal - We "negotiate" with DA up until the RFA period and, after failing to come to a deal because we refuse to budge, make the max tender and say that we tried to sign him but it didn't work out. - Either someone signs DA or we try to trade him to the highest bidder - If that doesn't work, we keep him on the roster for another year and then either watch his value fall or slap him with the franchise tag which lets us try and trade him again. Good luck getting that 5 year $60m deal DA... I'm really hoping you do... just not from us.  
We're... we're good?
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You are a trip.
You wrote this part yourself:
From today's PD, Anderson wants Romo money. $30 million guaranteed????? Ohhhhhh boy...
You then highlighted this part:
The Anderson camp is believed to be using the new contract of Dallas quarterback Tony Romo as a guide. Romo received a six-year deal for $67.5 million. The operative number is $30 million guaranteed.
Do you see the word "believed" in there? Do you know what "believed" means? Do you understand that it is not yet a fact?
Yet, you ignore these comments completely:
"I don't know," Anderson said about these subjects. "I can't really complain. I just have to keep plugging away at it. It'll all work itself out."
and
"I don't know if it will get that far. We're just in the beginning right now," Anderson said.
Do you know what quotation marks represent? If not, let me explain......they are the actual quotes from DA.
Didn't they teach you in your Media Relations class that direct quotes are more accurate than writer's opinions?
Dude, quit trying to be coy. Quit trying to mask your obvious bias. It isn't working.
So you're saying that the media reports and implied quotes from DA don't indicate he's unhappy with the initial offer?
That's like saying Chad Johnson REALLY doesn't want out of Cinci cuz he hasn't flat out said it.
All the reports say that they're far apart on years and that DA and his agent want Romo money (or more). Why should I not believe the reports?
Even then I don't think it's mostly about money, I think it's more about long-term committment than anything else.
Oh and coming from the guy who doesn't like Quinn because "he reminds me of Joey Harrington because he was in a photo shoot" and flat out calls Brady Quinn fans "Brady's Brats," I can't take being called "biased" with a lick of credibility.
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If he was, this would be over and done with.
No, it wouldn't be over yet.. and if you want to know why, let me refer you to another section of your post..
Quote:
Here's how it's going to play out...
- We offer DA a contract shorter than he wants and for less than he wants
- DA's camp counters with a Romo-type deal
- We "negotiate" with DA up until the RFA period and, after failing to come to a deal because we refuse to budge, make the max tender and say that we tried to sign him but it didn't work out.
- Either someone signs DA or we try to trade him to the highest bidder
- If that doesn't work, we keep him on the roster for another year and then either watch his value fall or slap him with the franchise tag which lets us try and trade him again.
No matter what else you think, speed in getting these things done is NOT in the best interest of either party.. The right thing to do is exchange a few proposals, don't take offense by what's offered or countered,, keep your head on right and simply make another offer.
If in the end, both sides want it to work,, and I mean REALLY want it to work, it will. It's only when and if someone says they want to stay here, but doesn't really mean it.
That's when things just fall apart and usually at the last minute or close.. Then the player comes out and says, I wanted to stay, but they wouldn't pay me right and the GM comes out and says, we tried, we wanted him here, but not for the kinda money he was asking for,
That way, both parties escape public outcrys..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Another factor that's being kind of overlooked here is this...
Just based on what we're seeing with the Anderson negotiations, it says a lot about how the organization feels about Quinn.
None of us know for sure, but he must be doing some really good things in practice and the film room. If he were struggling I think we'd be more inclined to lock DA up long term and move Quinn, IMO.
More crap. A month ago, you and other members of Brady's Brats were talking about how there was no way that DA would be back next year. Then, Savage and RAC both came out saying DA was the starter. We have also offered him a three year deal. That's a long way from not wanting him at all..........as you guys were professing.
And what in God's name are you thinking when you say that the Browns would move BQ if he wasn't excelling in practice and in meetings? Do you really think they would give up on him already.........no matter what he has done in practice and in meetings?
When did I say there was no way Anderson would be back next year? FYI, a month ago I said I wanted him back.
And by saying they'd move BQ if he was struggling is if it came to "one or the other."
Face it, if the FO wasn't seeing great things from Quinn, they'd be offering Anderson much more than 3 years $20 mil even in an initial offer.
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just clicking...
to me it comes down to numbers...look at the top 32 QBs in the game this year.
Top QB Rating = 117.2 (Brady)
32nd QB Rating = 66.4 (Grossman)
Average QB Rating = 84.20
Anderson QB Rating = 82.5 (17th)
In 16 games played he had 5 games where his QB rating was above average - these games were against the 27th, 23rd, 21st, 24th, and 6th rated defenses in the league last year. In other words, he was better than average against 1 top rated defense, the rest you'd expect a high QB rating.
Also against the 22nd, 31st, 27th, and 25th defenses in other games, he had an average QB rating of 60.7, with 3 of these games being our last 3 games of the season. This shows me that he didn't play high level when it mattered most (though I can hardly blame him for the buffalo game, that was nasty).
Though flip side, he did well against Pittsburgh (#1 defense) in week 10, posting a slightly below average 83.4 rating.
So, as far as I'm concerned, he's worth an average QB's salary - #17 in the league until he proves more. Incentives in a contract to jump him up to top 10, or top 5 is fine if he plays like a top 10 or top 5 player. Until he does, pay him like he's Kitna (#19) or Pennington (#15), not Romo (#5).
Pennington is due 12.8M the next 3 years (add about 3M in cap the next 2 years due to spread of guarantees - though this is hard to figure out because he has renegotiated the original deal). Nonetheless, the next 3 years would max out at 18.8M based on this.
I can only see that Kintna's last 3 years of salary are 5.35M total, not sure of bonus. Assuming the same amount, he'd make 10.7M over the next 3 years.
Split it down the middle because Anderson has been playing there and we have 3 years 14.75M. Right about the low end of the rumored contract value. Incentivize it and I'm ok with it. Give me a 90QB rating, and we give you extra money. Give me a 100QB rating we give you even more.
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So you're saying that the media reports and implied quotes from DA don't indicate he's unhappy with the initial offer?
No............I am saying you totally ignored the quotes and highlighted and wrote a summary on something that is "believed" to be true.
And listen.......you never have heard me say I want DA to be the starter........so, save your crap. You are a poster that relies on tricks to prove your point, but you actually prove something quite different.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
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just clicking...
to me it comes down to numbers...look at the top 32 QBs in the game this year.
Top QB Rating = 117.2 (Brady)
32nd QB Rating = 66.4 (Grossman)
Average QB Rating = 84.20
Anderson QB Rating = 82.5 (17th)
So............you are saying that QB rating is the end all? LMAO.
You fail to recognize:
---wins
---yards
---TDs
---TD to Int. ratio
---yds. per pass attempt
---3rd down conversion rate
You put all your faith in the QB rating, which for years has been ridiculed on this board. It also relies heavily on completion percentage which is one of the most overrated statistics on the planet.
Good call.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Quote:
Top QB Rating = 117.2 (Brady)
32nd QB Rating = 66.4 (Grossman)
Average QB Rating = 84.20
Anderson QB Rating = 82.5 (17th)
First let me say that I am on neither side of the fence. I would love to see DA back next year, but there is no way I would pay him that.
Now for those numbers. What those stats tell me is that DA's numbers were below average this year. And I think that we all know that between the O-Line, recievers, and run game that DA has a great supporting cast. Most of those Quarterbacks don't have close to the cast that DA has. So basically DA's numbers were below average with an above average cast. But we also have to take into consideration that DA played against some very solid defenses this year and he played in a bad weather city.
DA didn't play near the level of the salary he wants. He has a lot of potential, but he has a lot of areas to improve on. BQ will be a solid QB in the NFL and I think DA will be also. We cannot, however, pay two guys franchise QB money. We have to make a decision who to go with within this next year. Unfortunately, we may have to make that decision sooner rather than later.
Personally, I think it would be best for the Browns if we could get something for DA, if and only if we are confident that BQ will be as good of a quarterback or better of a quarterback than DA. A mid first rounder for DA, I say no way. But that and a third rounder, or more I think about it. I don't know if a team will give that up for DA, but I do know this. I would rather have DA than any of the quarterback prospects in this year's draft. But, in the future I like BQ better than DA. But, at least with DA we know what we have.
Oh one more thing. DA showed tremendous improvement this year. This leads me to believe that he will improve more before next season.
Last edited by Deepthreat; 02/01/08 07:25 PM.
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These are all part of the QB Rating.
+The component for completion percentage
+The component for yards per attempt
+The component for touchdowns per attempt
+The component for interceptions per attempt
That seems to cover these items you had on your list:
---yards
---TDs
---TD to Int. ratio
---yds. per pass attempt
Wins - that is a team effort, not just a QB.
What QB rating does is level the playing field for all QBs - they're all rated the same way. So when comparing them, it is a good way of combining many items into one number. Is it perfect, no.
Come up with a better way to justifiy a number please and I'll be more than happy to change my mind. Until then, I will continue to say that the offer given to him is more than fair considering what he's shown me on the field.
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clwb - although I DO appreciate the value of stats...2 of the last 3 games of the season were played in very adverse weather conditions. A blizzard game and a game where the wind was VERY strong. These games would smear the stats a bit.
What I DID see during the season was off the mark passes on short over the middle patterns. That's what bothered me. As good as he was...and as good as we did....we left a substantial amount of drives on the field because we couldn't complete some relatively easy throws.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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You really don't understand the QB rating system very well. Shep had a good thread about it awhile back.
I'm not picking on you, but it should NOT be the determining factor in a QB's worth.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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It's like I said all along... the franchise does NOT think DA is the long-term solution. If he was, this would be over and done with.
I usually avoid this deadbate, and I am not going to comment on who should stay or go, and for how long or how much we keep DA. However  , when we opened negotiations with Quinn (and his agent) it wasn't 'over and done with' immediately, and he was viewed as the future of the franchise. DA may or may not be viewed that way by the front office either, but they (and all of us) were pleasantly surprised by his season and know he deserves a good payday. (How much that payday is depends on your perspective (i.e. agent or front office)).
We have the luxury of getting DA for at least a year if a long-term deal isn't completed. DA and his agent do not want that, imo. Sure the entire $2.56 mil is guaranteed, but with a longer deal (for example split the difference and say) 4 years with $12-16 mil guaranteed - made up numbers not saying it's worth it or not. That's more guaranteed money for DA and his agent than the one year tender, which they won't sign right away, expecting better offers from other teams, or that negotiations with the Browns conclude with an acceptable contract.
Patience people, as we appriach the final days leading up to the teams deadline for submitting the tender to DA things will move along quicker, if it even gets that far.
Negotiations are just that, back and forth, give and take, they take time. Ultimately both sides reach an acceptable figure within their comfort zones and the deal is done. If they don't, then other options are explored by both sides, trades, holdouts, etc.
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
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Maybe I do understand it well. There are 4 components to the QB rating: 1) completion percentage 2) yards per attempt 3) touchdowns per attempt 4) interceptions per attempt each of the 4 of these values have a maximum (2.375) and minimum value (0). these 4 numbers are added together and then the sum is divided by 6. that result times 100 = the passer rating. yes it is not perfect as I stated, no it doesn't add in situational statistics like 3rd down completion, or results with the game on the line - but it is the only calculation at this point in time to analyze all quarterbacks the same way. I agree with your next comment to a point, it shouldn't be the only way to factor in a QBs worth. For now it is all I have - lemme have it
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Legend
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Face it, if the FO wasn't seeing great things from Quinn, they'd be offering Anderson much more than 3 years $20 mil even in an initial offer.
This is your opinion, and quite frankly not a very good one. What they offer DA has everything to do with the worth the put on him, and him alone. They are not going to overpay for DA just because they feel Quinn is not cutting it in practice.
This is a starting offer. No one knows how high they are willing to go. Also, they may not feel he is ready for a long term deal yet, but that doesn't mean the don't think he has it in him to become a top starter. They are being cautious. In my opinion that is the right path to take.
#gmstrong
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Just clicking.
I came back to this thread since I saw that there were 50 unread postings. I thought "Wow, maybe we signed Lewis and everyone is talking about it!"
Nope.
More deadbate.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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I watch him play and just can see too many poor throws and faults. I know we haven't seen as much of Quinn, but I don't see the problems in him that I see in Anderson.
Are you SERIOUS ? I understand people not wanting to pay him what Romo got, and I see flaes in his game as well. For you to say you don't see the same flaws in Quinn (who only played one series all year) is foolish.
Did you read what I wrote, or did you read what you wanted to see???
I said I know we haven't seen much of Quinn. And I didn't even tell you the flaws that I was talking about. I have seen Quinn in preseason, which is more than one series. And the problems that I'm talking about with DA don't need to be in regular game situations. And yes, I haven't seen the same problems with Quinn. I can say that with confidence. How is that foolish? Quinn hasn't really thrown a poor ball. His throws aren't always perfect, but I haven't seen him make a poor throw. DA makes poor throws. He makes great throws, but he also makes poor ones. You can't be inconsistent in this league. If you think my opinion is funny, it's cool. I know what I see. I hope the FO sees the same.
DA has had the same problems since he played at Oregon State, and they haven't gone away. So yes, I think DA and his insane agent are flippin' nuts if they think he's worth that much. Like I said, I'll take my chances on Brady.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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No matter what else you think, speed in getting these things done is NOT in the best interest of either party.. The right thing to do is exchange a few proposals, don't take offense by what's offered or countered,, keep your head on right and simply make another offer.
I'll give you that - these things don't happen fast. However, I think the real issue that's usually bartered over is money. Here, we're showing a big difference in years. DA's camp wanting 5-6 says that they want him to be the face of the franchise getting paid a boatload of guaranteed money. Savage's 3 year offer says that he wants him on the roster for the short term while having him compete with Brady Quinn. Three years are for evaluation because you're not sold on a guy, not for quarterbacks of the future.
If we thought DA was our future and DA's camp wanted a long-term deal, I think we'd be on the same page as far as years are concerned. You don't hear of a lot of teams putting 3 year contracts in front of guys they consider to be the future. In fact, usually they want to MAX the number of years they give the guy. The fact that Savage is already setting a restriction in years offered should not-so-subtly tell you what he thinks of DA. If we were debating over money and not years right now, I'd concede the point... but there's a reason length is involved.
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If in the end, both sides want it to work,, and I mean REALLY want it to work, it will. It's only when and if someone says they want to stay here, but doesn't really mean it.
That's when things just fall apart and usually at the last minute or close.. Then the player comes out and says, I wanted to stay, but they wouldn't pay me right and the GM comes out and says, we tried, we wanted him here, but not for the kinda money he was asking for,
That way, both parties escape public outcrys..
That's just the thing... Savage "wants it to work", but only on his terms. A three-year deal would put DA into free agency while Brady has one year left on his deal. Thus, at that point, we've had 3 years to evaluate both and can either a) re-sign DA to a long-term deal and find a trading partner for Quinn who is still under contract or b) let DA walk (or franchise and deal him), let Brady play for a year and then work on re-signing him - the perfect evaluation scenario. If we give DA even one more year so that he totally eclipses Brady's contract, the whole situation is ruined. Tack on one more year after that (which is what DA wants) and Brady is completely out of the picture and on the trade block.
If we want to bring DA back and not screw up our "advantage", three years is as high as we go. DA's group has seen guys like Schaub and Romo get paid big cash for long years and they're not going to go lower than five, especially because that means that Quinn is still in the picture. Ultimately, even IF both sides are willing to compromise, I can't see them leaving their respective camps enough to strike a deal... the length is far too crucial to both parties.
That's why I think, in the end, DA gets a big contract somewhere else and we get a high draft pick. It's about as much of a win-win as there is at this point.
We're... we're good?
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Brown to the Bone- Curious about something. A few posts up you have this:
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I actually don't see the Browns going past 3 years, and that could be the part that ends all hope of ever signing DA. I also think the Browns want DA here next season no matter what.
The Browns can tender DA and he will be theirs for another year, start BQ and see how he does.
But on the previous page there is this:
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Expect DA to sign the 1st and 3rd tender soon
There is no way that anyone is going to pony up a 1 and 3 for DA  , not ever. It appears as tho you still haven't sobered up from your B-day Ammo, if you believe that crapola....LMAO Stir the pot..
All Ammo said was to expect DA to get a tender, which is basically what you're saying above. Ammo just specified at which level the tender would be, the highest (the one that means any team that signs DA to an offer would have to pony up a 1st and 3rd).
Do you not think that the Browns would tender DA at that level? No where was it said that a team would actually make an offer to DA under those circumstances, just that Cleveland would tender at that level.
Actually DA doesn't sign a tender. His saying that is strange.. The team simply makes the salary offer to him, then he is free to explore what other teams have to offer at that juncture. If he where to sign the tender he would then be under contract to the Browns for the tender price since the tender is actually a contract offer. He will not sign it, at least not to start with. Thus saying he will SIGN is strange... He won't sign chit..
Get it got it good..
Brown to the Bone
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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My question is, how many posters "honestly feel" that Savage will dole out a four year, 45 mil. contract for DA?
I don't think he will,, JMO,,,
EDIT:
Unless he has a Sign and Trade deal in the works,, then I guess it could happen.... I have my doubts however. Aren't we stuck with the signing bonus on trades? I suppose that could be negotiated as well.... not sure.
You are spot on with the signing bonus Daman. I tried to make this point in another thread, and was soundly trottled for it. Normally signing bonus money is spred out over the length of the contract, but if and when a team cuts or trades a player the signing bonus money is charged against the current years cap money. In other words if you signa 3 year contract with a player and he gets a 9 Mill signing bonus he is a 3 mill per year hit on the cap, but if he is traded then the hit is for the remaining moneys not yet charged against the cap.
Thats why I would roll the money into the 1st year of any contract that I may offer DA. We have cap space now, and we can afford to pay the money now -vs- waiting any paying over 3 years or trading DA say next off season and then having to take a cap hit at that point. Sometimes teams won't make a trade because of the cap hit they have to take should they deal the player. Since I think that we will at some point trade DA we should IMHO use the cap space we have now and save space later when it may be needed.
Brown to the Bone
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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I'm not going to let you have it. Believe what you will. Just don't expect us all to believe it.
If it weren't for people disliking DA, they would have been all over your comment. You should have seen the volume of posts when someone mentioned Timid's QB rating. *L* I love selective posters.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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POST DELETED- PERSONAL ATTACK
Last edited by Referee1; 02/02/08 10:15 AM.
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Maybe I do understand it well. There are 4 components to the QB rating:
1) completion percentage
2) yards per attempt
3) touchdowns per attempt
4) interceptions per attempt
each of the 4 of these values have a maximum (2.375) and minimum value (0). these 4 numbers are added together and then the sum is divided by 6. that result times 100 = the passer rating.
yes it is not perfect as I stated, no it doesn't add in situational statistics like 3rd down completion, or results with the game on the line - but it is the only calculation at this point in time to analyze all quarterbacks the same way.
I agree with your next comment to a point, it shouldn't be the only way to factor in a QBs worth. For now it is all I have - lemme have it
I'm not gonna "let you have it" either, but here are some more tiny details that folks often overlook when using the wonderful QB rating:
* Dropped passes
Oh wait....that's only one tiny detail, but it's enough.
QB A has the following day:
15 of 25 for 275 yards with 2 TDs and 1 INT. His rating is 107.91
QB B has the same exact day, but he had 3 easily catchable passes that were dropped by his receivers that would have gone for 10 yards apiece:
12 of 25 for 245 yards with 2 TDs and 1INT. His rating is 92.91
The QB rating formula is the absolute worst statistical tool going because it does not allow for many variables. A lot of folks always say "Well, it's all we've got." No it isn't......we have our EYES. The formula does NOT rate all QBs the same way, because it does not allow for variables outside of the QBs span of control as I've noted above.
Additionally, it does not allow for passes that have been tipped by wideouts that should have been caught, but resulted in an INT. Again, the formula does not allow for this variable and therefore does not accurately rate QBs "the same way" based on just their individual performance.
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However, I think the real issue that's usually bartered over is money. Here, we're showing a big difference in years. DA's camp wanting 5-6 says that they want him to be the face of the franchise getting paid a boatload of guaranteed money.
THat is logical, but I haven't heard or seen it written anywhere.., other than here and it's speculation..
For all we know, DA may NOT want to be here with Quinn looking over his shoulder.. Like I said, they say one thing, but sometimes, they don't mean it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Just clickin
For comparison sake this is what the NFL Players Association site says is the compensation for 2008 and the 2009 years for these QBs:
P. Manning 11.5 mil 14 mil
E. Manning 8.45 mil 8.95 mil
Favre 12 mil 13 mil
Palmer 7.75 mil 9.5 mil
Brady 5 mil 5 mil
Rivers 5.75 mil 6.5 mil
Schaub 4.95 mil 6.95 mil
Romo 6.5 mil 7 mil
Delhomme 3.69 mil 5.325 mil
Kitna 1.95 mil 1.95 mil
Brees 4.8 mil 9.8 mil
Pennington 4.8 mil 5.7 mil
McNabb 6.3 mil 9.2 mil
Roethlisberger 1.3565 mil 1.707 mil
Hasselbeck 5.75 mil 5.25 mil
Bulger 7 mil 6.5 mil
Young 1.5 mil 2.16 mil
Just joining this DEADBATE ( that just hit me as quite funny, and thought it was apprropriatly named)
I guess it makes sense to see what other starting QB's around the league are making- seems to be a good starting point. Of course there are hidden numbers as in the case of Brady as pointed out previously.
What struck me on this list is V. Young and Big Ben numbers. Isn't the high tender amount above 2 million- right on par with those two QB's? I also like the idea of the steelers having to shell out major bucks in the next few years.
Then there are some guys on that list that have a major increase in salary in the near future. Those deals are probably the bogus year of the contract that essentially forces the team to sign a new contract or go in a different direction at QB. Brees and McNabb seem to fall into that category. It also adds a bit of credibility to the thought that McNabb is on his way out of Philly. That would dilute the QB market, decreasing the value of Anderson on the open market.
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I'd say a contract worth about 7 mil a year would be more then enough compensation.
I'd say a contract worth 4-5 million a year is MORE then enough compensation. Front load the thing with a roster bonus to avoid the cap hit associated with the signing bonus in the event of a trade.
If a team comes along and anti's up a first and third- time to move on and see what Quinn has to offer. If Anderson will sign a long term contract with the browns for a reasonable price- great. IF not, he is tendered for one more year and we all can be having this same deadbate next year. Only, trading him won't be an option at that point because he would be an UFA (unless franchised for major bucks)
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The QB rating formula is the absolute worst statistical tool going because it does not allow for many variables
DISAGREE...
No single "STAT" takes into consideration EVERYTHING...There's no "Perfect Stat"...
When it comes to QB Ratings...It's as accurate as accurate can get...
It WORKS because the Best of the Best are ALWAYS in the Top 10 every year...And funny thing is...MOST all of those teams are in the Playoffs...
I'm talkin' the Brady's...Manning's...Romo's...Rothlisberger's...Farve's...
The Palmer's DON'T make the Playoffs cause the rest of the team SUCKS...  ...But he's still up there cause HE'S GOOD...
Go Browns!!!
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It WORKS because the Best of the Best are ALWAYS in the Top 10 every year...And funny thing is...MOST all of those teams are in the Playoffs...
6 out of the top 10 in the AFC didn't make the playoffs.
6 out of the top 10 in the NFC didn't make the playoffs.
You were saying???? Interesting when you look at it by conference instead of overall.....eh?
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