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Ralphie,
Glad to see you and your lovely bride (of many years) survived the ordeal and i hope you can whenever possible help spread the dangers and truths about abortion and to help HOPEFULLY one day end this tragic, brutal and murderous practice.
God bless you and your family!
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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Do you know what would be even more brutal and murderous? For a girl or a woman to not have access to a safe abortion. THAT is more dangerous than anything.
This is why abortion will always be legal in America.
Go right ahead and flame away....
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Quote:
If you are talking about the 1st or 2nd trimester, then the baby cannot survive outside of the womb.
On their own? no... but I can introduce you two hundreds of babies and kids that I have met in my hospital that were born in their second trimester.
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Did you mean to say that an abortion doesn't always have to result in a dead fetus? I still don't get this at all....that's what an abortion is. An abortion is defined as terminating a pregnancy. Again, termination = dead fetus.
I think he's asking what happens with a botched abortion... or if in the future there would be a type of abortion that would allow for a live baby being 'extracted' as in a botched abortion...
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Quote:
Do you know what would be even more brutal and murderous? For a girl or a woman to not have access to a safe abortion. THAT is more dangerous than anything.
This is why abortion will always be legal in America.
Go right ahead and flame away....
Ok I'll flame 
So we justify murder by saying we're doing it in a safe and humane manner?
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No, it's not about justifying anything.
Like it or not, abortion will always exist whether it's legal or not. If abortions were to be made illegal, then medical doctors will cease to perform the abortion procedure. This will lead to dangerous abortions performed by those outside the medical profession. And I'm sure I don't need to tell you what the result of that would be.
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Quote:
No, it's not about justifying anything.
Well that's what you are doing... you're saying that legalized murdering of an unborn baby is ok because it's safer...
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Would you rather have it be unsafe?
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Strange...I didn't see her say "legalized murdering of an unborn baby is ok".
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I don't believe in justified murder, so I don't think it should be legal... why should I make something legal because it's safer than if it was illegal?
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Quote:
I don't believe in justified murder
Off topic, but if someone busted into your home and you shot and killed them, is that okay?
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't believe in justified murder
Off topic, but if someone busted into your home and you shot and killed them, is that okay?
I don't own a gun... and I'm not sure if I would be able to kill someone even if they were robbing me... if they were hurting someone in my family then possibly, but just for robbing me who knows...
and we're not talking about defending one's home against an adult (most likely) who is committing a criminal act... we're talking about an innocent life who hasn't been given the chance to choose life... the unborn baby never committed any criminal act.
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I just wonder what you think of a pregnancy that threatens the Mother's life (much like our intruder)...is it still wrong in your eyes to terminate the pregnancy?
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Quote:
I just wonder what you think of a pregnancy that threatens the Mother's life (much like our intruder)...is it still wrong in your eyes to terminate the pregnancy?
that is basically the one and only reason that I can understand an abortion... I still don't like it but I can understand it... I have problems though justify the mother's life over the baby's though. What makes her's worth so much more than that baby's? What if that baby was meant to cure cancer or something? I know it's nostalgic but whatever
But in that case I can understand the need for an abortion...
the only other that I can sort of understand but still strongly disagree with is in the case of rape.... again I can understand the reasons why, but I still disagree with it because I still look on the unborn baby as being innocent of any sins... but I can also appreciate how difficult it can be to have a constant reminder of the mother's attacker.
Edit: and you should have just asked your question Michelle... that was a very poor comparison (intruder in the house vs a threat to the mother's life). Stop trying to be sneaky haha
Last edited by jaybird; 02/05/08 08:26 PM.
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Quote:
Edit: and you should have just asked your question Michelle... that was a very poor comparison (intruder in the house vs a threat to the mother's life). Stop trying to be sneaky haha
LOL, I really wasn't trying to be sneaky. I didn't even think of the connection until after I posted. 
And, I agree with you for the most part. I do not think abortion should be used as "birth control". However, I still don't feel it's my place to tell others what to do with their bodies. It's a tough issue for me.
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Quote:
Quote:
Edit: and you should have just asked your question Michelle... that was a very poor comparison (intruder in the house vs a threat to the mother's life). Stop trying to be sneaky haha
LOL, I really wasn't trying to be sneaky. I didn't even think of the connection until after I posted.
And, I agree with you for the most part. I do not think abortion should be used as "birth control". However, I still don't feel it's my place to tell others what to do with their bodies. It's a tough issue for me.
Well technically they are killing something that is not apart of their body because it's a different set of DNA...
I think I'm going to take a break from this thread... abortion is one of the few controversial issues that really fires me up... I'm amazed I've stayed pretty calm this far into the thread 
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Michelle, I'm with you on this one. Personally, I would never get an abortion, but I don't feel that I have the right to tell someone else what to do with their body. And using it for birth control goes against everything I believe in. That's what the Pill, condoms, the patch are for. Hell, the morning after pill too.
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Understood...that's why I didn't comment until late. I'm going to step out, too. 
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That's what the Pill, condoms, the patch are for. Hell, the morning after pill too.
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Jaybird....You have entered dangerous territory. Be aware of the principle of compound interest. You may believe that you are dealing with one maybe 2 women discussing the procedure of abortion...you are mistaken as the number of posts will grow exponentially...you'll swear that there are 6-10 females involved...when it is only 2-4. Always be deferential.
Someone previously mentioned that abortion SHOULD NOT BE USED FOR BIRTH CONTROL. I think we are in agreement on this.The medical necessary instances of terminating pregnancies are actually fairly rare...thank God. The overwhelming number of abortions are elective/not medically required.
That being said...if a woman simply wants her pregnancy ended for a non medical reason...which is most certainly her right...what happens next when...
Newer procedures for extraction of the live fetus from the woman's body is becoming more efficient and expected to be almost commonplace soon. This may allow us a new opportunity for the term choice. Just as...
...using the example of an intruder entering a house to rob...the homeowner has a gun...if he decides to stop the criminal in some fashion short of death has he used choice in the proper sense???
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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I am personally against abortion, ever. My beliefs come from religious beliefs which makes them not suitable for a legal debate. Legally I think it should be against the law if the baby is viable, period. Early abortions in my mind are human but I don't think that holds much water scientifically. Once the baby is viable I don't see how the mother has the right to terminate that life.
I know the wholearguement about the heath of the mother but I believe that is mostly a croc. It is an easy catch all.
One last thing for the person who said something about babies being adopted. Have you ever seen how long the waiting list is for healthy white babies?
#gmstrong
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Quote:
I don't believe in justified murder, so I don't think it should be legal... why should I make something legal because it's safer than if it was illegal?
But wait....you're justifying a woman dying from an illegal, unsafe abortion...is it that it's okay for her to die because she was trying to get an abortion?
No, that's not what you're implying....what you would like to happen is that no woman would ever attempt to get an abortion once it became illegal, but again, that's not going to happen.
So, we have 2 choices.
1. Woman has safe abortion, baby dies, mother lives.
or
2. Woman has an unsafe abortion, woman bleeds to death, both baby and mother die.
Which is the better scenario?
I do not advocate abortion. I do not think that abortion is "okay". I am more "pro-birth control" than anything else. But we don't live in a perfect world...unplanned pregnancies will continue to happen. If we lived in that perfect world, then women who have an unplanned pregnancy would carry the baby to term and give it up for adoption. But not all women do.
Abortion needs to remain legal in order to remain safe. Tragic, but true. Such is life in this imperfect world...
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No I have not. Have you seen the waiting list for black or mexican babies? Is a white baby more valuable?
I still go back to the morning after pill. At that point there may or may not be conception. If the mother never knows is it still abortion? Would you support it? Also I still believe most abortions occur very early. Most of this discussion is moot.
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I have a feeling that most pregnancies are terminated from 2 weeks to 4 weeks from conception.
Here's the relevent data:
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Abortion rates also vary depending on the stage of pregnancy and the method practiced. In 2003, from data collected in those areas of the United States that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 88.2% of abortions were conducted at or prior to 12 weeks, 10.4% from 13 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks. 90.9% of these were classified as having been done by "curettage" (suction-aspiration, Dilation and curettage, Dilation and evacuation), 7.7% by "medical" means (mifepristone), 0.4% by "intrauterine instillation" (saline or prostaglandin), and 1.0% by "other" (including hysterotomy and hysterectomy).[19] The Guttmacher Institute estimated there were 2,200 intact dilation and extraction procedures in the U.S. during 2000; this accounts for 0.17% of the total number of abortions performed that year.[20] Similarly, in England and Wales in 2006, 89% of terminations occurred at or under 12 weeks, 9% between 13 to 19 weeks, and 1.5% at or over 20 weeks. 64% of those reported were by vacuum aspiration, 6% by D&E, and 30% were medical.[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#By_gestational_age_and_method
And here's a really good graph for the U.K (which statistically above is similar to the U.S.)
[image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/UK_abortion_by_gestational_age_2004_histogram.svg[/image]
(Image seems to not be showing for some reason, if you enter it into your browser it should work though.)
~Lyuokdea
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 02/05/08 09:57 PM.
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At the moment of conception there is another human being that is in our care.
Being the product of rape I strongly believe that it is the choice of the mother to do as she sees fit, but to also take into consideration that there are people out there that would give their right arm to have a healthy child to adopt.
jmo and now I will not post anything else on this thread because if I do I know I will be banned for life.
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Women should be afforded 3 abortions per lifetime. Every one after the first is a courtesy abortion. That way a women can use her abortion rights to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, however, we could be sure that a women isn't using abortions as a way to bail her out of some irresponsible decision-making.
If you get raped more than 3 times in your lifetime---then you have to start looking at the way you're living your life.
If you get pregnant more than 3 times and need your pregnancy terminated---then you should have been more responsible in using birth control methods.
So there you go, three abortions per female.
I think that that is a decent middle ground on this black and white issue.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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man I had to come back didn't I... Quote:
But wait....you're justifying a woman dying from an illegal, unsafe abortion...is it that it's okay for her to die because she was trying to get an abortion?
No I didn't... where did I say I wanted a woman to have an illegal abortion? 
But keep trying... That's like saying I am justifying it's ok for someone to die from crack or heroin because I don't think it should be given out legally in a safe manner
Quote:
what you would like to happen is that no woman would ever attempt to get an abortion once it became illegal, but again, that's not going to happen.
I actually put above situations where I can understand the need for an abortion, but essentially yea, I don't believe in abortion... legal or illegal...
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1. Woman has safe abortion, baby dies, mother lives.
aka... legal murder...
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2. Woman has an unsafe abortion, woman bleeds to death, both baby and mother die.
aka... mother attempts to murder her baby and dies in the process...
or choice 3. we try to find alternatives including better birth control...
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Abortion needs to remain legal in order to remain safe.
Which is just justify legal murder which is a crock... it's a legal way to kill the most innocent of human beings... I'm so glad we live in a society where we can have such a safe way to murder an innocent child.
Edit: oh, and I hope that you are not naive enough to think that there are no mothers who have died from a legal and 'safe' abortion.... and that every woman who has an illegal abortion dies...
Last edited by jaybird; 02/05/08 10:40 PM.
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#gmstrong
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 You're kidding, right? Don't answer because sadly, I know you're not.
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No I didn't... where did I say I wanted a woman to have an illegal abortion?
And where did I say that I was trying to justify abortion? See how that works?
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aka... legal murder...
aka... mother attempts to murder her baby and dies in the process...
or choice 3. we try to find alternatives including better birth control...
That's just it...there was no choice 3. She either dies from an illegal abortion, or survies a legal one. We don't need better birth control....we need for couples to practice safe birth control 100% of the time. Remember that perfect world that I mentioned? Ain't gonna happen.
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I'm so glad we live in a society where we can have such a safe way to murder an innocent child.
For the umpteenth time, it's better to have a safe way, than an unsafe way.
You can debate many, many things when it comes to abortion...but the one thing that is not up for debate is that abortion needs to remain legal in order to remain safe.I can understand both sides of the argument. I don't even consider my viewpoint to be an pro-choice vs. pro-life viewpoint, only one that is based on fact rather than emotion.
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LOL... I'm sorry... everytime I read the words "safe abortion" all I see is safe murder... so for the umpteeth time if you want to have a safe murder then be my guest... Quote:
only one that is based on fact rather than emotion.
There is only one fact that I look at... that an unborn child does not get a choice to live... that a unborn child is murdered before getting to experience life because (in the majority of cases) a couple was stupid enough to not use protection and can't be grown up enough to handle the consequences.
I'm done with this debate...
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so for the umpteeth time if you want to have a safe murder then be my guest...
What? I don't want safe murder...I don't want any kind of murder, abortion, whatever you want to call it.
Do you understand what I mean when I say that I'm not taking a pro-choice stance when giving my opinion on a womans need to have safe access to an abortion?
I'm done too, sorry if I offended...
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But not before I reply to your edit that I just noticed... Quote:
Edit: oh, and I hope that you are not naive enough to think that there are no mothers who have died from a legal and 'safe' abortion.... and that every woman who has an illegal abortion dies...
Death rate of a legal abortion per 100,000 cases: 1
Death rate of an illegal abortion per 100,000 cases: 50
source
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No I have not. Have you seen the waiting list for black or mexican babies? Is a white baby more valuable?
I still go back to the morning after pill. At that point there may or may not be conception. If the mother never knows is it still abortion? Would you support it? Also I still believe most abortions occur very early. Most of this discussion is moot.
I haven't seen the facts on any adoptions. I did not mention other races because I know nothing about them I know there is a shortage of healthy white babies because I know people that have adopted and want to. I also know people who have adopted babies of other races.
Do I think white babies are more valuable? Yes I do. Not because they are somehow better but because there is such a great demand for them. I am pretty sure that most who adopt happen to be white and most of them would rather have a baby of the same race. I am not saying that it is right, just that I believe that is how it is.
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Ralphie....It may very well be viable to remove a live fetus in the future....That IMHO however only leads us down another road all together....** If the fetus has a right to exist and Not be terminated , but as you mention be removed alive , doesn't the fetus also have the right to full unhindered gestation and birth ?....My point is that this is a slippery slope arguement....IMHO unwanted pregnancies should required to carry the baby to birth and at that point if the Mother wishes to not be involved in her unwanted pregnancy , she can give the baby up for adoption....** The baby's right to develop fully , be born and have a chance to live overrides the Mother's desire Not to go through pregnancy....
The Mammal
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Would you rather have it be unsafe?
I sure would.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I'm not picking on you Christy, just disagreeing Quote:
So, we have 2 choices.
1. Woman has safe abortion, baby dies, mother lives.
or
2. Woman has an unsafe abortion, woman bleeds to death, both baby and mother die.
Which is the better scenario?
The better scenario would be options 3 and 4.
3. Give the baby up for adoption.
4. Keep your legs closed.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Women should be afforded 3 abortions per lifetime.
People should be afforded the right to kill three people per lifetime. (dripping with sarcasm)
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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MAMMAL---Thank you Thank you Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After 2 full pages of posts YOU ARE THE FIRST TO RESPOND TO THE QUESTION POSED.
"Ralphie....It may very well be viable to remove a live fetus in the future....That IMHO however only leads us down another road all together....** If the fetus has a right to exist and Not be terminated , but as you mention be removed alive , doesn't the fetus also have the right to full unhindered gestation and birth ?....My point is that this is a slippery slope arguement....IMHO unwanted pregnancies should required to carry the baby to birth and at that point if the Mother wishes to not be involved in her unwanted pregnancy , she can give the baby up for adoption....** The baby's right to develop fully , be born and have a chance to live overrides the Mother's desire Not to go through pregnancy"
MAMMAL---thanks again---The political tenor in America would never allow for a forced full gestation period of the baby,er..., fetus.
Women's Rights advocates claim to be interested primarily in protecting the safety of the mother...wait a minute....... doesn't a child of some age need to be present to cause of woman to be a mother???
I guess a woman can be referred to as a mother even though the mass inside her is still unborn and referred to as a fetus...no need for a live child to be a mother?
The last 40 plus years teach us that the pregnant woman's rights will always supercede the unborn fetus' rights and because of this I am afraid that a woman right's to HER CHOICES FOR HER BODY MAY BLOCK THE REMOVAL OF THE LIVE FETUS.
Think about this awhile...an unwanted pregnancy...due to serious judgment error or potential medical complications...can be ended by medical means. These advanced medical means allow for the survival of the unborn fetus at even an early stge...but wait...because of looming monetary concerns or unwanted future familial complications will the Woman's Rights Organizations push to disallow this life saving procedure to the ultimate life termination of this fetus? How sad!
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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You should have posted the other graph too.. the one that said less than about 2% of abortions occur due to health of the mother or abnormalities to the fetus.. the other 98% are pretty much because having a baby would be inconvenient for the mother...
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Ralphie,
I think that your question has some scientific problems with it. Right now, any abortion done in the first Tri-mester(sp) would not be able to sustain a baby to term. ( or vary rarely). After that, the fetus might have a chance the longer it stays in the womb, getting closer to term or 32 weeks I think it is. Once this happens, then there is a possibility that the baby, if the mother does not want it at the later stages, could be expelled, live and then adopted. ( or maybe given to the father). BUT most abortions take place in the first weeks of conception so its almost a mute point.
Now as far as the rest of the arguement/debate, I'm always amazed at how some men can talk about the morality of abortion but NEVER talk about their responsibility in making the baby. MAYBE if some men took responsibility for their actions, women would not feel compelled to have the abortion!!!
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Abortion question which concerns
me...no debate intended.
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