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The 05, 06 and 07 seasons have been concluded.. it's a fair time to evaluate the 2005 Browns draft class.. Here is the link to the entire 7 round 2005 draft: http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=2005Here is the link to the 2005 Browns roster: http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/rosters.nsf/Annual/2005-cleIn 2005 The Cleveland Browns selected: RD1 3rd pick: Braylon Edwards WR Michigan Starter RD2 34th pick: Brodney Pool DB Oklahoma Starter RD3 67th pick: Charlie Frye QB Akron Starter home opener, benched then traded to Seattle. The only opening day starting quarterback in NFL history to be traded after his first game. RD 4 103rd pick: Antonio Perkins DB Oklahoma released June 07 picked up by Indy off waivers. No starts. RD 5 139th pick: David McMillan LB Kansas On roster, 29 games no starts RD 6 176th pick: Nick Speegle LB New Mexico Out of football? RD 7 217th pick: Jon Dunn OT Virginia Tech suffered an ankle injury as a rookie and was placed on injured reserve on September 3, 2007. In camp with the Browns in 2006, he was released on September 3, 2006. Dunn was signed to the New York Giants practice squad on November 15, 2006. He spent the preseason with the Giants in 2007 and was waived on September 1, 2007. Dunn was signed to the Lions practice squad on September 26, 2007. Braylon.. Good pick. Took a few years to mature.. still drops the easy ones and catches the tough ones. Big threat but has stupid moments. Pool.. I'm not a big fan and I think I'll let Vers field this one.. Should have taken Lofa Tatupu LB at that pick IMO.. ProBowl starter. Sheesh in 05, Our LB's were Speegle, Davis, Stewie, Unck, Ruff, Chaun, and Ben Taylor..Not a good set of linebackers at all.. Charlie.. I'm glad we got a 6 for him. Bad QB Blown pick. IMO the better pick here would have been Nick Kaczur RT for the patsies. Our Line in 2005 looked like: Shelton was the LT, Druzzi was LG, Faine was C, Coleman was RG and Tucker was RT. Again.. not good.. I would argue that had we taken Kaczur our oline today would look like: Kaczur would prolly be RT, we'd have Joe at LT, Steiny at LG, Had an injury never happened to Bents, we'd have him at center / or assume the injury and put Fraley in there and Tucker at RG. Thomas ~ Steiny ~ Bentley / Fraley ~ Tucker ~ Kaczur Now, thats a solid NFL caliber line. Perkins.. Blown pick. McMillan.. Sorry to say 29 games, no starts.. I'll let you guys decide if that was a blown pick Speegle.. Blown pick.. near as I can tell he's outta football. Dunn.. ankle injury released. Thats about the end of that. I did this post twice.. it timed me out and I lost it all the first time and I cut corners this time. Your thoughts? I think I have everythang correct but I expect this crowd to correct me LOL..
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Everything after Pool was a bust (including Frye and I'm not sure if 4th rounders & beyond can classify as "busts" cuz that's a crapshoot) and the jury is still out on Brodney.
Last edited by DevilDawg; 02/17/08 10:33 PM.
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Compared to years previous with this draft, it's like we hit a friggin' home run.
And we really didn't, but we were just so poor with our picks leading up to Savage taking over. I think it was a successful draft. I don't think it was stellar, but it was successful.
Braylon- Pro Bowler.
Brodney- starter and solid contributor. Maybe not a star, but he's starting and shown enough to allow the coaches to let Bryan Russell walk.
I think anytime you select a Pro Bowler who just said a team TD record, you had a solid draft. If you can throw in a second guy who is starting and (hopefully) stays the starting for a few more years, you had at least a decent draft.
You can't expect every guy you pick to pan out. Charlie got us some starting time at QB, He contributed. Maybe not a great QB, but we never really had much. The rest of the picks pretty much were blown. McMillan at least stuck on the roster, but the other guys were pretty much garbage.
Giving a grade to the draft, I'm gonna have to say C.
We didn't fail, but we didn't ace the test, either.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Quote:
Giving a grade to the draft, I'm gonna have to say C.
We didn't fail, but we didn't ace the test, either.
I think that about sums it up.
Considering where this team was then, we really needed more than a C for that draft.
But Savage has also made good use of Free Agency and 'off the street' pickups like Anderson and Holly.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Yup, turns out it was a 2 round draft.
Frye might have had a better go of it if we had an OLine...
The rest of the bunch stayed on the team longer than they should have.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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Quote:
Considering where this team was then, we really needed more than a C for that draft.
I think thats accurate too. I'm not trying to rag on Savage, I'm actually a big fan of the guy, but I think we missed on one player too many in that draft.. 2 starters and at least 1 solid contributor would be the target.. we did the 2 starters but missed that 3rd guy. After all, our picks which were either the 2nd or the 3rd in each round.. If memory serves me right we flopped picks every other round.
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I agree with that also, but I think one thing people need to keep in mind is that you have to provide a 'grace period' for first timers. I am as guilty of this as anyone as I have not been known to have much patience. It was his first draft, and there were going to be mistakes.
Just like with RAC. First time head coach, lots of mistakes. It's not different than any of us starting a new job. There is going to be a learning curve.
That still doesn't change the fact that the team needed a better draft at that time. But I'm glad this organization has excercised patience with Savage and with RAC because their total body of work has been good to very good, in my opinion.
But could you imagine if Edwards didn't come on this year? That draft would have been a disaster.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I agree. Plus, you have to take into effect that he wasn't as aware of the Browns needs as he was after that first season. It seems like he learns from his mistakes and improves. Every draft has gotten better IMHO.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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It seems like he learns from his mistakes and improves. Every draft has gotten better IMHO.
That's a good observation.
And what really else can you ask for whether you are an employee of any company, a coach, or a player?
Does he/she learn from their mistakes and correct them? That has to be one of the most important qualities you will find in all successful people no matter what walk of life you are talking about.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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After taking Brodney in the 2nd round, we missed out on: Lofa Tatupu, Nick Collins, Justin Miller, and Frank Gore (first pick of round 3)
After taking Frye in the 3rd, we missed: Ellis Hobbs, Sione Pouha (up and coming nose for the Jets), Kaczur, and thank GOD we didn't draft Maurice Clarett. hahaha.
After Perkins in the 4th, we could have had Marion Barber or Brandon Jacobs. Also, Kerry Rhodes went later that round.
After that, Derek Anderson is probably the only noteworthy one left.
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RD1 3rd pick: Braylon Edwards WR Michigan
The first Browns player since Courtney Brown I wanted us to pick...there was a lot of criticism early on, and it was warranted given our needs in other areas...but I was dating a girl from Michigan his senior year and was absolutely blown away the things that he did.
He may have the best footwork in the NFL.
Ideal pick: Edwards
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RD2 34th pick: Brodney Pool DB Oklahoma
Not a big fan of the pick then...he's impressed me at moments, made me scream at others...despite the mixed reviews I think one would be hard pressed to argue it was a great move for the second.
Ideal pick: Lofa Tatupu
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RD3 67th pick: Charlie Frye QB Akron
I'm one of the few who don't consider this a bust.
He took the lumps while we built a line...was he the best thing we could've done in the third? No...but I'm glad we let Charlie Frye get torn apart and not someone we'd invested a ton in. It wasn't a great pick, but I don't think of it as a 'bust', unless one is limiting the discussion to 'boom' or 'bust'.
Ideal pick: Justin Tuck
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RD 4 103rd pick: Antonio Perkins DB Oklahoma
Savage loves him some Oklahoma.
Hated this pick. Still do.
Ideal pick: Brandon Jacobs
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RD 5 139th pick: David McMillan LB Kansas
He's done enough here and there to make me shrug about him.
Ideal pick: Wesley Britt?
Sixth and seven were pretty much garbage...take your pick of the crap. Except...
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213 Derek Anderson QB Oregon State Baltimore Ravens
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I wasn´t a great draft....and I´ll argue that only DAL, NE and SEA had clearly a better draft than us...they had really great picks....but watch the rest of the teams: ie MIN, they had a lot of picks and completely blew it this draft class wasn´t very good...and I have to give Savage and his team credits for picking Edwards against the will of many Brownsfans, me included, because the rest of the top 10 isn´t even close in talent AND production I also didnt like the Pool pick...but look at the rest of the 2nd round....Tatupu was considered a huge overdraft back then (more like 4th round talent)...the rest of those 2nd rounders are just like Pool = below AVG starters or even backups or out of football (RB Shelton, WR Murphy) No problem with the Frye pick: It is well documented that Savage took a risk there. He said they had Hobbs rated higher on their board but took a chance on Frye...he didn´t pan out as a starter but I still think he is an above AVG backup....and it´s not a horrible pick when you draft an above AVG backup QB in round 3....it´s way better than LB, OL etc. backups like most other picks in that round turned out to be Also, talking and rating that draft....we should not forget that Savage later picked up the diamonds of the 6th and 7th round of that class: Anderson and Holly....and then everybody forgets about the Cribbs FA-pickup....would anybody on here be mad, if he was our 4rth round pick? Overall: Savage hit a HR in round 1, swung for another 1 in round 2 and missed (a foul in my book, we´ll find out about this AB this year, 2 strikes though)...then had bad timing swinging for the single instead of taking the meatball his board delivered to the fence (Frye over Hobbs) , then swung big again and missed (Perkins)...then he had some nice bunt-sinlges with Anderson, Holly and Cribbs....I´ll take a .250 hitter with HR-power and ability to bunt his way to 1st anyday...what about you? 
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After taking Brodney in the 2nd round, we missed out on: Lofa Tatupu, Nick Collins, Justin Miller, and Frank Gore (first pick of round 3)
After taking Frye in the 3rd, we missed: Ellis Hobbs, Sione Pouha (up and coming nose for the Jets), Kaczur, and thank GOD we didn't draft Maurice Clarett. hahaha.
Pretty simple to sit back 3 years later and say "We shoulda taken this player instead."
Braylon was obviously a good pick. Took awhile to develop, but when you have inconsistency across the OL your skill position players are not gonna show out like they could to all of their potential.
Pool should be showing more by this point than he has. He will find himself battling for a job this year methinks and me hopes. Not enough bang for our buck at this selection level.
I was not then nor am I now displeased with the pick of Frye in the 3rd round. The QB position is the hardest to fill other than LT, and taking a swing at a hometown kid in the 3rd round is not out of line. *shrug*
I was hoping that Antonio Perkins would come up big for us in the return game as well as the D backfield, but so much for that. Anything after Round 3 you pretty much have to just get lucky unless you're talking about a K, P, longsnapper....
One real good hit (but hard not to have one with the 3rd pick of the draft) and a lot of misses. Step one of the rebuilding process........crawl, walk, run.
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I have been very critical of that draft. It was Savage's worst. And I am not buying the excuses either. I have heard he was new to the Browns and that he didn't have time to prepare. Well, Savage himself said he chose best available and he had been preparing for the draft all year. He just outright missed on some picks. Now, don't start the labeling crap..........I have since changed my tune on Savage. He has improved. I don't hate him. I just think that draft sucked. 1. Edwards: He's pretty good. He made the Pro Bowl, but he is not our best receiver. That distinction belongs to Winslow, as indicated in the clip where Belichick is saying they only have one player that can beat us and we got to shut him down. He was talking about K2. Edwards benefits because K2 is on the team. Edwards is a big play guy who improved a lot this year. He still drops passes that are right to him, because he catches the ball w/his body in those circumstances. Hell, they should never throw the ball at his chest. Make him reach for it, because then he uses his hands. He also has an inordinate amount of dumb penalties. He was called for a false start on two occasions in our last game when we were going to run the ball on 3rd and 4th and short. How stupid is that?  While Edwards is a good player, I think the team would have been further ahead to trade down and get more picks. I actually think the better players in the draft---guys like Merriman and Ware---were not top 10 picks. Pool: Terrible pick. The guy has zero instincts. He is hardly ever around the ball, which is why most people don't bad-mouth him. They don't see him getting burned, but that is because he is so far away from the ball. If you go to the games, train your binoculars on him. He stands around more than any player in league. So slow to react. I wish we would replace him, but it would take a lot to admit such a mistake. If Savage does replace him, I'll gain even more respect for him. Frye: We end up w/a low sixth round pick for a high third round pick. Hell, he was almost a 2nd rounder. You do the math. Perkins: Don't tell me 4th rounders don't contribute........because many do. I hated the pick at the time and it is one of the worst picks this team has made. I hope to God we never draft an Oklahoma DB again. The rest........I'll give him a pass, but there certainly isn't any good news here. It was a terrible draft that set us back some. Additionally, his FA picks that year were bad. He has improved a lot in the next two years, especially his FA acquisitions and the shining draft pick...........Joe "Freaking" Thomas. I do know that I have a lot more confidence in Savage than I did after that first year. Good thing, because I had very little after year one.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Just like with RAC. First time head coach, lots of mistakes. It's not different than any of us starting a new job. There is going to be a learning curve.
True, as far as it goes. I would add, though, that when I start a new job 72,000 people aren't paying $50-$100 a shot to watch me work. Makes you think that there might be a bit more incentive to perform at a higher level.
As far as the draft goes......Not horrid, but other than Braylon nothing to write home about. And I'm still not convinced that Braylon won't still have an ego explosion should things go poorly at some point in the future.
I'm also with shep on the pick for Charlie. A 3rd round pick for a hometown kid......it didn't pan out but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing in the same circumstances. And frankly, I don't recall anyone griping about it at the time. So moaning now is just so much background noise to me.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Quote:
Well, Savage himself said he chose best available and he had been preparing for the draft all year. He just outright missed on some picks.
I´ll just refrain...he said it, but explictly said Hobbs was higher on their board than Frye....so if you just go by "their board" and preparation: it woould have netted us:
Edwards, Pool, Hobbs...not too shabby, actually compared to other teams pretty good
and Perkins was considered a 2nd round talent after his junior year...Savage took a swing but his knee injury in his senior year probably cost him his biggest strength (speed, athletic ability)...he already declined from junior to senior season but it was attributed to his injury....Savage probably thought he´d come back strong and he had a steal...it was a boom or bust pick and it resulted in a bust
If anything, my critique of Savage would be that he talked about hitting singles and doubles but he swung purely for HRs in this draft.....he probably knew we lacked playmakers on the roster...so it´s kinda excusablel imho.....I´ll mark it under overconfident Rookie-GM who wanted to impress.....he hit more singles and doubles the next to drafts
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So many in this thread are commenting on our players and how they are. How many have looked at the link? This was a terrible draft from top to bottom. There were a couple of decent players but they would have been a reach at 3. Some teams got lucky and their guy turned out to be a player but most teams got the same crap we did. Other than BE we go nothing in this draft. 
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Just Clickin'
We also must remember that Savage was working with the scouting staff that was already in place at the time of his first draft.
I think the drafts have improved since he brought in his own people that know what he is looking for in players and what they are expected to do.
That is why I think you can not completely judge his first draft.
I think every draft since has improved and I look for more improvement from this point on.
I would really like to see the Browns sign Savage long term so he will be here for years to come.
I think he has us on the right track and we will get to where we all want the Browns to go.
JMHO though
Hope springs eternal in the heart of a true Browns fan. GO BROWNS!!!!!
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Hard to say Frye was a bad pick. Everyone in the NFL was high on him and a lot of Browns fans were hoping we'd get him in the 2nd round. He didn't pan out and we are lucky to have a 6th round pick for it.
Any picks from the 2nd day can't really be called "blown picks." Especially those 6th and 7th rounders. You're lucky to get practice squad guys out of those picks.
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I seem to remember 2005 being a pretty weak draft overall so I went and looked up who the Steelers took in that draft. I figure since their our rival and we're going to have to go through them to eventually take hold of the division they could be a decent measuring stick. Here's their draft: (and of course take into account that they were drafting much lower than us) 1 - Heath Miller TE 2 - Bryant McFadden CB 3- Trai Essex OT 4 - Fred Gibson WR 5- Rian Wallace LB 6 - Chris Kemoeautu OG 7 - Shaun Nua DE 7 - Noah Herron RB I'd say that they did about as well as we did. Miller is obviously a starter and there a few guys who are still on the roster who contribute occasionally. Gibson, Wallace, Nua, and Herron were either not on their roster or out of football. Not to be an apologist for PS and his staff but they not only had to throw together their rankings and draft board, but the class overall seems like it's turning out to be a weak one. I also looked at who the Bengals and Ravens took and it was very similiar as well. Each team found some solid guys on the first day but their second day picks were pretty terrible (except for some guy named Anderson that the Ravens drafted in the 6th round). I think the 2006 and 2007 drafts will more accurately depict how talented Phil really is. So far I'd say pretty good but another year or two will truely show it. All I know is that we got a Pro Bowl player with our first rounder and a solid starter with our second. The second day was pretty awful but you don't really expect those guys to make huge contributions. If you can hit on those picks (Like a Brandon McDonald) then you're in great shape. Compared to the production we had gotten out of our previous 3 or 4 first rounders (Winslow excluded) I'll sure as hell take it 
Time and change will surely show
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O - HI - O
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A 'C' as best, and even a "C" is pushing it. Braylon has finally produced, but everyone else... nope.
Luckily Savage has been better at FA, as well as in his two subsequent drafts.
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If u break the draft down pick by pick it looks HORRIBLE ... but U have to take a few things into consideration ....
1. it was a WEAK ASS DRAFT .... go look at the players taken the whole way through ... it was a WEAK ASS DRAFT ..., other than Brey U can go look at guys WE SHOULD HAVE PICKED that panned out alot beter ... but HINDSIGHT IS 20/20 and there is a small # of guys who panned out as a whole ...
look at the Pool pick ... he was taken #34 ... U have to go down to #45 to find the LBer from Seattle and the guys in between are NO BETTER than Pool .. and alot of them are WORSE ....
it was a WEAK ASS DRAFT ...
2. Opie did not have his scouting staff in place.... AT ANY TIME prior to this draft ... we didnt have a HC or a COACHING STAFF at all until Feb. of that year ...
OPIE WAS WAY BEHIND THE 8 BALL .... alot of guys say he LEARNED from that draft(no not U .. ) ... well that just shows their lack of intelligence or shody ass memories ... he got HIS PEOPLE IN PLACE .. and they had a YEAR TO WORK TOGETHER WITH THE SCOUTS AND COACHING STAFF ...
hell for the first draft they were just getting to know each other ... thats hard enough ... now U add to that evaluating and stocking a team from scratch in a VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME ..... tough road to hoe my friend .. tough road to hoe ..
3. If Pool pans out and somehow develops instincts (HIGHLY HIGHLY DOUBTFUL) .... this draft would look a hell of aot better .. and the chances are slim to none for Brodney ...
it was a WEAK ASS DRAFT and we did a HORRIBLE JOB .... but given the circumstances and what he has done with HIS PEOPLE IN PLACE .. he gets a pass from me .. and U know I don't just hand them out freely ... this may be the first time you've ever seen me give one ...
as for that FA class .... U are forgetting that we cut allot of high priced players and took the FULL CAP HIT THAT YEAR .... that wiped out our cap space .. we took guys like Coleman and Fisk and paid them PEANUTS (league minimum with no or very small signing bonuses) cause thats all we could do .. the same with Druzzi .. we gave him some $$$ but not alot cause we needed someone ... we NEEDED people to play those positions and we had NO $$$ .. so we went bottom of the barrell ... and the axiom that U get what u paid for .. came true ...
and unlike some (again not U) who are saying well we should have picked Latufa or the RT for NE ... I said what i am saying NOW BACK IN 05 ... this is not a HINDSIGHT THIING for me ... I FELT THIS SAME WAY BACK THEN ... and posted these same thoughts many many times back then ... and it HOLDS TRUE FOR THE FA PART I AM about to discuss also .. this is what i said way back when ,... no revisionist history or hindsight BS with me ..
the only guy we spent real money on was Fred Baxter .. we needed a CB cause A-Hen left and we had NO ONE ... i HATED the sigining... but i UNDERSTOOD IT ... and it was not Opie's fault A-hen left .... he HATED the org. and felt betrayed cause of how he felt bOtch and the Don treated him ..
Imagine if we had a healthy Baxter now Bro .. he would be playing WHERE U AND I INITIALLY WANTED HIM and he WAS A GREAT SAFETY ... ONE OF THE BEST IN THE GAME ... with him and Jones at Safety we'd have as good a duo as thier is in football ...
at the end of the day ... because Opie and RAC had the GUTS TO DO THE RIGHT THING .. we had NO $$$$ FOR FA INTHAT FIRST CLASS ....
and thats what opened the vaults for guys like LA, Stieny and Shaff ... now lets see what he does on D ...
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and on Frye ... didnt like the pick then but i UNDERSTOOD IT ... we needed a QB .. we didn't have one .. *L* .. so he took a swing and missed ... figured we'd end up with a back up at worst and if we got lucky ... we had a steal for a starter in rnd 3 ..
I agree with what Django said (thanks for turning me on to him and Bat .. your right they know their stuff ... and i don't get to read much so i pretty much go right to the guys i respect (all 3 or 4 of U's .. *L* .... speaking of witch .. where the hell is tab ... hope he's OK .. ) .. and either gloss over and skip the rest .. so thanks for that .. ) .. Opie said he wanted to hit singles and doubles .. and he took chances for the fences with Pool and Perkins .. and it apears he whiffed on both while going for the HR instead of shortening his swing and just putting the ball in play .... as Pool was projected as a top 5 - 15 pick if he would have stood for his Sr. year ...
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Just to add to that(I doubt you care) the Frye pick was a no brainer for Phil.
He said he had Ellis Hobbs(NE) RATED BPA on his board but he said they went against conventional wisdom because they wanted a young QB to slowly bring along and he had scouted Frye for two years while in Bmore..so he took a chance..
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As far as Frye and the 3rd round, hasn't Phil stated that Ellis Hobbs was actually the BPA on his board but he felt that they needed a QB? I'm pretty sure I heard or read that somewhere, I don't think I could make that up.
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Legend
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WOW,, looking back, it doesn't look like much good came out of that draft.. Edwards looks to be it. I'm not totally down on Pool yet. I still think he can come around.. McMillian, who knows and the rest is history.
As far as what we should have done,, yeah,, Tatupo and Kaczur would look pretty good in Browns Unis, but that's really hind sight.. It's been so long, I'm not sure either was that highly touted back then... But I could be and most probably am wrong about that.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Well, you know what I say.........excuses are for losers.  And again.........I ain't bad-mouthing the guy. I was on the fence w/him long after most on here proclaimed him a genius, but he did some incredible things last year. He got Joe.....he signed Steiny when I thought he had NO shot; he brought Lewis in, etc. I also liked the drafting of Wimbley and signing Bentley the year before. I am okay w/the DQ pick. He's improved each year. That's good. I still think he had a pretty rotten first year, but that doesn't mean I hate the guy. Oh yeah..........so you remember how you and I were talking about Baxter being a better safety than a corner, huh? Good memory, bro. I never thought Baxter was a good corner. Hated the signing. But yeah........he could have been a pretty good safety. Of course, he wouldn't have made the kind of $ that he did. Diam.......why don't you hit the FA thread? Like to hear your thoughts.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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All Pro
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All Pro
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j/c
I cannot believe all the love for Tatupu in this thread so far. He was considered a HUGE reach by Seattle at the time - several sites (SportingNews is the first that comes to my mind) had it ranked as the worst pick in the draft. The bottom line is no one thought much of Tatupu that early except for Seattle - kudos to their scouting department.
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Hehehe.....Lots of justifications going on here.
I don't recall you actually asking a question, Saint. that's a good thing, since IF you'd have asked whether or not it was a "good draft for the Browns" the answer would have been a resounding "NO."
Now we can compare our class against the other classes around the league and come up with a comparison. I'm not interested in how our draft class compared to other teams. I'm keeping it simple and to the point, which is to say that our draft class was saved by the fact that our most important pick, both in production as well as fiscal well-being, has turned into a pro-bowler. Say what you will about Edwards, but he's a pro-bowl player and a game-changer. He drops the easy ones, but so does TO, and so has other receivers throughout history. He's the ONLY reason our draft doesn't get a complete "F."
Pool is starting. Big deal. He'll look alot better if we could muster some kind of pass rush, but as of right now, we're not getting the kind of value you want with a draft pick that high. You want a bonifide starter......keyword being "bonifide"......by the end of his third-year from that draft position. He's not a complete waste yet, but he's far from a competent starter, having been on the wrong end of things far more than he should be.
I'm rather shocked by how many people are willing to excuse Savage for the complete failure that was Charlie Frye. To say it's ok that Savage failed because of some obscure justification is unfortunate. If you take a QB on the first day of the draft, you MUST get more out of him than what we got out of Frye, which was jack-crap. If Frye REALLY had any value throughout the league, he would have been traded for more than a lowly 6th round draft pick, and he'd have ended up being more than the emergency QB on his new team. Frye was a bad selection, and that's the end of the story. It's inevitable that someone will say that "had we not taken him, someone else would have" or "He was rated that high on the board, so it was an ok pick." It's all just excuse-making.
Then there's the rest of the draft, which has given us next-to nothing.
IMHO, Edwards makes our draft worth something, but not one single player besides him has even met expectations.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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1st String
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1st String
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I love the spin on this board. It is really better than politics and at this time that is huge. Quote:
Say what you will about Edwards, but he's a pro-bowl player and a game-changer. He drops the easy ones, but so does TO, and so has other receivers throughout history.
And you were one of many calling TO a cancer. So comparing the two is there a chance Edwards could turn into the cancer that you felt TO was? At the time when you an others were calling TO a cancer I defended the guy knowing that all he wanted and still wants is to be a Super Bowl Championship at any cost.
If that will to win is a description of a cancer then I would take a whole team of TO's and Edwards on my side. 
Quote:
I'm rather shocked by how many people are willing to excuse Savage for the complete failure that was Charlie Frye. To say it's ok that Savage failed because of some obscure justification is unfortunate. If you take a QB on the first day of the draft, you MUST get more out of him than what we got out of Frye, which was jack-crap. If Frye REALLY had any value throughout the league, he would have been traded for more than a lowly 6th round draft pick, and he'd have ended up being more than the emergency QB on his new team. Frye was a bad selection, and that's the end of the story.
Oh my, had you said something like this last year at this time, you would have been burned at the stake. And by the way ( you are right on). Now we have the Anderson thing going on. Same thing, different player, different year.
The sooner we settle the QB issue the sooner we move to the next level and might I say with all the QB's we have had since our return it would be awesome to have one to call our own! 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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Quote:
And you were one of many calling TO a cancer.
He was, remains one to this day, and I wouldn't have him on my team if he volunteered his services, as it'd be just a matter of time before he turned on someone.
That has nothing to do with the fact that he produces on the field, nor that he and Edwards are nearly identical when it comes to making plays and being game-changers, despite the fact they both drop too many footballs.
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So comparing the two is there a chance Edwards could turn into the cancer that you felt TO was?
Yes.
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Now we have the Anderson thing going on. Same thing, different player, different year.
The sooner we settle the QB issue the sooner we move to the next level and might I say with all the QB's we have had since our return it would be awesome to have one to call our own!
Different player, different result, different situation.
The QB question is best saved for a thread that involves that avenue.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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Quote:
excuses are for losers.
GREAT SAYING .....
and I agree 100% ...... Thank God I didn't use any and only gave BONAFIDE FACTS and REASONS for the shortcomings in that draft ... 
appearantly Toad wants to live in a bubble and CONVENIATLY FORGET the FACT it was a WEAK ASS DRAFT and that Opie had a DYSFUNCTIONAL, BARE BONES scouting staff and NO HC OR COACHING STAFF until the middle of Febuary and then add to that the fact they had to evaluate an entire team and all the FA's in about 60 days ..
Naaaaaa .. thats no big deal ... 
then add to that the FACT that after he GOT HIS SCOUTS in place and had a coaching staff, philosophy and a PLAN in place the next two drafts were more than likely very good .... and that adds CREDENCE to all the administrative shortcomings to that first class ... I mean if the next two weren't very good then U could throw all the FACTS that hindered us in our first draft out the window and we could say he just sucks ... well that does not appear to be the case .. so U have to give those FACTS some credence ...
not to mention the best drafter in the history of the game John McVie/Bill Walsh were at best 50/50 on what would now be day 1 ... for some reason everyone expects the guys today to be NEAR PERFECT in what is hardly an exact science .. and MCVIE/WALSH were possibly the best of all time and IMO is BY FAR THE BEST OF ALL TIME ... and they were a MERE 50/50 ON what would now be DAY 1 .....
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And again.........I ain't bad-mouthing the guy.
I don't believe u are ... U dont need to defend yourself to me .. save that for Pitt and Daman ... I believe it was Daman that called U simple minded or sumptin along those lines and Pitt accused U of "setting Opie" up in the part of the thread currently running on DA that was deleted by one of the Refs ...
I believe U are simply evaluating the first draft ... and IMO your conclusion that it sucked is 100% accuratte ... but I then step outside of the bubble u and Toad are sharing ...  .... and look at other things involved in that draft and consider them before just saying it was horrible .. witch it was ... but to me the mitigating (big word for me .. I know .. and I think I may have even spelled it right .. *L*) circumstances HINDERED our efforts and are therefore worth mentioning and then U add in the PROBABLE RESULTS of the last two classes when the mitigating circumstances were removed and U get the free pass I would give them for the first class ..
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I ain't bad-mouthing the guy. I was on the fence w/him long after most on here proclaimed him a genius, but he did some incredible things last year.
I'n not proclaiming him anywhere near a genius yet ... hell I'm still on the fence about the guy .. hes done SOME REAL GOOD THINGS in his 3 years here .. and thats GREAT ... but the results from his 2nd and 3rd drafts are far from conclusive ... and hes built HALF THE TEAM real well ... lets see how he builds the OTHER HALF before we proclaim him a genius ...
I am FULL OF HOPE as I LOVE what he's done so far .. but he's only 1/2 way home .. i want tosee him FINISH WHAT HE STARTED ... and I believe in my heart of hearts he will ... but like i said .. he has to FINISH THE JOB ....
everyone's giddy about last year .. as well they should be ... but just like the playoff team that bOtch had .. this team was not near as good as it seemed (and the similiarities in the two teams end there .. this is a young team with ALOT OF TALENT and a GREAT FOUNDATION to build on .. that was an old team with NO FOUNDATION to build with) ....
this was ONLY a 10 - 6 football team because we played in a VERY WEAK DIVISION and played the TWO WEAKEST DIVISIONS in football in the AFC Least and NFC West .. those DIVISIONS WERE HORRIBLE ....
we beat only 1 team with a winning record and they were a PRETTY BAD FOOTBAL TEAM THEMSELVES who only had a winning record because they got to play teams in their own WEAK ASS DIVISION and then got to play the Rats and Bungles in addition ... thats 8 EASY GAMES right there ..
it amazes me that we played a 16 game schedule against 13 different teams and only played 3 teams with winning records ... that SIMPLY AMAZES ME ... it seems almost statistically impossible .... but it happend ...
thats for another thread .. not this one ... my point being is that IMO Opie has given us a solid foundation to build from .. thats the EASY PART ... now he needs to get us over the hump and i am VERY HOPEFUL he will .. but i am not one to give out credit for doing 1/2 or 3/4's of a job .. I wait until its COMPLETE ... but thats just me ...
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Oh yeah..........so you remember how you and I were talking about Baxter being a better safety than a corner, huh? Good memory, bro
I am truely not a real bright fella ... and my grammer is brutal and my spelling is even worse .... but i have one hell of a memory .. *L* .....
Quote:
I never thought Baxter was a good corner. Hated the signing. But yeah........he could have been a pretty good safety. Of course, he wouldn't have made the kind of $ that he did.
I believe this was alot like the Shaffer signing ... we signed Shaff to play LT but I beleive teh plan all along was to put him over on the right side when we got a real LT ... and we signed Shaff to LT $$$ .. he is more than likely a top 5 paid RT ... and he is not even close to being a top 10 RT ... hes bottom 3rd of the league as far as RT's go ... but hes a MUCH BETTER RT THAN HE WAS LT ....
and i believe when we signed Baxter he was signed to play CB cause we neded one .. but the eventual plan was to move him back to safety when we had legite corners .... then he would have been a top 5 paid safety ... but he would have been AT LEAST a top 10 safety if not inthe TOP 5 ... he was a REAL GOOD SAFETY BRO .. REAL GOOD ...
as far as the corner $$$ we paid him .. I BELEIVE (but i could be wrong) he got paid slightly less than A-hen did ... and A-Hen is not a very good corner ... he has been the weak link in the Dallas secondary since day 1 over there ..
did we overpay for a pretty bad cb?? ABSOLUTELY ... but if we moved him to safety he would have been well worth the $$$ even though we would have still been overpaying for him ...
make sense??? if not, it does to me .. *L* ..
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Diam.......why don't you hit the FA thread? Like to hear your thoughts.
It's to early .... I'll chime in late next week ... around the 27th or 28th when we start getting a better idea who's going to actually become avaialble ...
I will say this ... I would much rather sign Mushy than Berrian .. I want NOTHING TO DO WITH BERRIAN ... NIOTHING ... he has BRICK HANDS ... U guys think Brey drops alot of footballs ... well Berrian makes him look like Chris Carter when it comes to drops .. we need a POSSESION GUY if we go FA WR ...
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I'm rather shocked by how many people are willing to excuse Savage for the complete failure that was Charlie Frye. To say it's ok that Savage failed because of some obscure justification is unfortunate. If you take a QB on the first day of the draft, you MUST get more out of him than what we got out of Frye, which was jack-crap.
Interesting to know WHO is excusing him for taking Frye?
This isn't the first time this discussion about Frye came up..it actually came up before the draft when a few of us found out he was going to draft him..it continued after the draft.
Why are U suprised now?
Fact is he was project and the smart ones in here KNEW it..we knew he might not have what it takes to be a starter but migh make a good backup..which is what he is...
Considering what transpired it was a risk and Phil knew it..he said it...but he had scouted the guy and he took a chance on him..
How is that a excuse?
I get why he did it..I know I never said I was estactic with the pick and it discussed with several posters(Mourg included) about any other QB's that could have been selected..
U know full well QB's taken after the second round have a slim chance of making it big and U have stated that many times..
So U splain it to me how it's a excuse UNLESS someone flat out says it..
Saying U understand why a selection was made and making excuses for it are TWO totally different things..
I 'm surprised many don't seem to get that..
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Quote:
appearantly Toad wants to live in a bubble and CONVENIATLY FORGET the FACT it was a WEAK ASS DRAFT and that Opie had a DYSFUNCTIONAL, BARE BONES scouting staff and NO HC OR COACHING STAFF until the middle of Febuary and then add to that the fact they had to evaluate an entire team and all the FA's in about 60 days ..
Naaaaaa .. thats no big deal ...
Let me show you something:
Quote:
excuses are for losers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GREAT SAYING .....
Apparently, Diam wants to make excuses and compare the draft class with other classes. While that's fine IF that's the topic of discussion, it's pretty obvious that Saint's angle on this doesn't revolve around how our class compared to other teams draft classes, but whether or not the class was a success.
So sure, we can excuse the level of talent based on the level of talent in the entire draft, and we can excuse Opie's draft since it was his first. But what nobody can do is excuse the results on the field.
The subtleties of any given specific direction of a given point can easily be missed by some. I forgive you Diam *smooches*
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Interesting to know WHO is excusing him for taking Frye?
This isn't the first time this discussion about Frye came up..it actually came up before the draft when a few of us found out he was going to draft him..it continued after the draft.
Why are U suprised now?
Simple. Knowing that he was a failure, and knowing that he doesn't have enough game, either physically or mentally, to be a starter, and knowing that his trade value was that of a 6th round pick, it's rather fascinating to see that Frye and Savage are both being defended when the pick and the player were both flops.
It's one thing to defend the move while it happened, but when it's done, signed, sealed, delivered, killed, and burried, and the results are in, there's no room for excuses when judging the end result.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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Vers .... U need to increase the oxygen level that their pumping into the bubble .. Toad isn't making much sense and then he kissed me .. he's definetly not getting enough oxygen .. PLEASE BRO ... he desperately needs more oxygen ..... 
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If U knew he was a failure before the pick happened then U can GRIPE about Savage for taking him..
If U didn't like the pick thats fine..I didn't like it but I knew the reasons why..
Thats not a excuse..thats just understanding the selection.
Dude knew he was taking a chance on Frye....and fact is the other faction (Dill-pickle) bolted and left due to other reasons..
And If I'm not mistaken even U chipped in that we needed to see what the kid had..so why turn and bust Phil out now?
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 02/19/08 04:58 PM.
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Legend
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Quote:
Toad isn't making much sense and then he kissed me ..
Quit whining...It's the first kiss you have ever gotten, other then your mother. 
#gmstrong
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Rookie
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It was VERY easy to justify a 3rd round pick on Frye at the time. Obviously, now it looks like a big dud. But not nearly as bad as Tim Couch or Gerard Warren.
I remember a lot of fans wanting to draft Derrick Johnson with that #3 overall pick in '05. He has turned out to be decent, but after this season it's pretty easy to say that Braylon was the right choice.
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Quote:
I love the spin on this board. It is really better than politics and at this time that is huge.
Quote:
Say what you will about Edwards, but he's a pro-bowl player and a game-changer. He drops the easy ones, but so does TO, and so has other receivers throughout history.
And you were one of many calling TO a cancer. So comparing the two is there a chance Edwards could turn into the cancer that you felt TO was? At the time when you an others were calling TO a cancer I defended the guy knowing that all he wanted and still wants is to be a Super Bowl Championship at any cost.
Talk about spinning.....
He compared Braylon to TO the "player," not TO the "person."
Meaning he can make great catches and change the outcome of the game, then drop a screen pass the next drive. He never mentioned that Braylon's attitude compared to TOs, or that he acts like TO does.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum 2005 Browns Draft.. the 3rd year
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