Quote: I don't follow him around he walks around with a target attached to him all the time, so It's easy to make him a target since he needs the attention since he makes comments to get them. Watching Batman at his age would have gotten my ass kicked in my day, but in todays society it is acceptable, and I do not respect that.
Pdawg, I commend your 12 year old, he/she is obviously more mature at this stage in life then Ammo, and am sure your kid will be more valuable to society since it seems your kid wants to grow up and not regress as Ammo has stated he has. Again Ammo comparing life to a video game, WTF is that junk?
Get Rowdy, not sure who you are but don't worry about what I do, worry about yourself, since it seems you think Ammo's behavior is acceptable, well let me tell you something friend, in the real world this kid couldn't make it and quite frankly I feel bad for his parents for shelling out the coin to send him to college when he's wasting their money. He needs a lesson in life, and life isn't comic books, cartoons, video games and acting like the fool. He needs to mature and I would bet if his mom or dad read some of the stuff he has posted they would be embarassed, I would if he was my kid. It's not my fault he's afraid to grow up, that's on him. As for you trying to stick up for him doesn't say much about your character, but then again you are probably the same way.
Ok now this is personal.
You, sir, don't have a clue about ANYTHING.
First off, when the HELL did I compare life to a videogame? I was trying to show where videogames CAN educate people or at least be a stepping stone towards learning something. They're not all mindless drivel like you think they are.
If you really, REALLY want to get into the Batman debate I most certainly can inform you on this cuz I can tell right away you don't have a clue. I'm not even a comics expert and I already know this much: everyone is fueled/motivated by some sort of tragedy in their lives. In the case of Bruce Wayne it's the murder of his parents. Batman represents using that darkness for good when he so easily could use it for evil...sometimes you have to take matters into your own hands.
Superman can be summed up very quickly by Steven T. Seagle...author of "It's a Bird..."
"I wanted to turn the page and know what was going to happen next. Which is the lesson stories can teach life. There's always a 'next', always. That's what Superman is all about, to remind us that we have hurdles. But as long as we keep jumping them...we're in the race."
Who ever said life is videogames, cartoons and comic books? That's certainly NOT the world I live in. But life certainly can be represented through various forms of media...life IS represented through various forms of media. Every piece of art is a form of self expression.
But what IS this lesson in life you want to teach me oh great one?
I'm afraid to grow up? Well if growing up means being like you, then absolutely I'm afraid to grow up. Cuz being like you isn't a life worth living if it means being an overall rotten person all the time telling them they need to "grow up."
Fortunately, I know I don't need to be like that to grow up. This isn't 1950.
As for what my parents think of me? You couldn't be more wrong.
Quote: I don't follow him around he walks around with a target attached to him all the time, so It's easy to make him a target since he needs the attention since he makes comments to get them.
Really?
Quote: I commend your 12 year old, he/she is obviously more mature at this stage in life then Ammo, and am sure your kid will be more valuable to society since it seems your kid wants to grow up and not regress as Ammo has stated he has.
It sure seems like that would be unnecessary and you are targeting him. You talk about how he is bringing it on and in the very next sentence you can't help but take a swipe at him on this? Why? What does it really prove? You try to claim high ground while running down the hill to take a cheap shot and then retreating back up, trying to look good. Its poor form.
As for your shots at Rowdy, he has been around this and the old board for quite some time. While I've never met him personally, Rowdy is someone who I've talked to on both incarnations of this board for probably four years and seems to be a good guy. He is standing up for a younger person on this board because it seems to be the in-thing for people to take pot-shots at the younger members of the board. When I first joined the old board I was 18 and people consistently made fun of me for being the youngest, I believe, at the time. Its only gotten worse and it is time for it to stop. Just because someone is younger and may have a different perspective does not mean that their opinion is somehow worth less than yours and your consistent pettiness on age issues is disheartening. Its not just the culture of applauding ignorance that this country has to overcome, its also closemindedness. Whether that revolves around race, gender, sexual orientation or age (in either direction), it is something that should not be tolerated.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
Seems like I struck a nerve, so that tells me I am pretty close to the truth. Game Set Match.
Logdawg I could care less if Rowdy made his first post today or on another board and had been a long time user, that doesn't mean squat. Because someone posts allot on a message board doesn't mean they know more then others, it means they have more free time.
Ammo, just grow up kid, you can make all the excuses you want but if you were my kid and I read your responses and threads I would be embarassed. Sorry you might not like that but you yourself make yourself out to be a fool constantly, and it is what it is, Now go watch your cartoons and enjoy life, because it's gonna bite you in the ass in the long run, as for me, this is nothing more then laughable reading material especially when you respond. Make your mom and dad proud and grow up, until you do, expect similar comments from me when you make life a joke. Life hits hard and is cruel, hopefully you'll be able to learn that.
Quote: Seems like I struck a nerve, so that tells me I am pretty close to the truth. Game Set Match.
Logdawg I could care less if Rowdy made his first post today or on another board and had been a long time user, that doesn't mean squat. Because someone posts allot on a message board doesn't mean they know more then others, it means they have more free time.
Ammo, just grow up kid, you can make all the excuses you want but if you were my kid and I read your responses and threads I would be embarassed. Sorry you might not like that but you yourself make yourself out to be a fool constantly, and it is what it is, Now go watch your cartoons and enjoy life, because it's gonna bite you in the ass in the long run, as for me, this is nothing more then laughable reading material especially when you respond. Make your mom and dad proud and grow up, until you do, expect similar comments from me when you make life a joke. Life hits hard and is cruel, hopefully you'll be able to learn that.
Sooo...what is this lesson in life you would like to teach me?
Quote: Get Rowdy, not sure who you are but don't worry about what I do, worry about yourself, since it seems you think Ammo's behavior is acceptable, well let me tell you something friend, in the real world this kid couldn't make it and quite frankly I feel bad for his parents for shelling out the coin to send him to college when he's wasting their money. He needs a lesson in life, and life isn't comic books, cartoons, video games and acting like the fool. He needs to mature and I would bet if his mom or dad read some of the stuff he has posted they would be embarassed, I would if he was my kid. It's not my fault he's afraid to grow up, that's on him. As for you trying to stick up for him doesn't say much about your character, but then again you are probably the same way.
Frankly, I don't care what Ammo does in his life. It's his life, he can live by whatever set of standards he wants to. My problem is with you. You throw the pendulum of judgment all over him for no reason. You take an extreme amount of time replying to him and poking fun at him. What does that do for you? This board has been diseased to a serious degree lately with the new fad of insulting and attacking anyone whose not "in". So in "your day" watching Batman at his age would cause you to get your ass kicked, so what? Times change, that seems to be what you're mad about, not him. You're angry about an entire generation and you're taking it out on one person.
And I'm just like him? Have you ever spoken to me? This is probably the first post of mine you've ever seen, and I've been around DT for six years. Don't act like you know me. I'm not sticking up for someone because I see myself in them, I'm sticking up for someone because he's being attacked for absolutely no reason. I'm sticking up for someone because this board feels they can judge everyone now. I'm sticking up for someone because you're taking out anger on someone whose done nothing to you. For someone whose relentlessly attacked, he's remained, from what I've seen, quite cordial and well-mannered.
I am with you 100% on this one. I am tired of Fletch following Ammo around and criticizing him every step of the way. You may disagree with some of the stuff Ammo says or does but you are seriously out of line with him. Just because you disagree doesn't give you the right to act like you know everything about him. You don't know the slightest thing about him.
Quote: Seems like I struck a nerve, so that tells me I am pretty close to the truth. Game Set Match.
Logdawg I could care less if Rowdy made his first post today or on another board and had been a long time user, that doesn't mean squat. Because someone posts allot on a message board doesn't mean they know more then others, it means they have more free time.
Ammo, just grow up kid, you can make all the excuses you want but if you were my kid and I read your responses and threads I would be embarassed. Sorry you might not like that but you yourself make yourself out to be a fool constantly, and it is what it is, Now go watch your cartoons and enjoy life, because it's gonna bite you in the ass in the long run, as for me, this is nothing more then laughable reading material especially when you respond. Make your mom and dad proud and grow up, until you do, expect similar comments from me when you make life a joke. Life hits hard and is cruel, hopefully you'll be able to learn that.
Sooo...what is this lesson in life you would like to teach me?
Not to speak for fletch, as he seems capable of doing that - but: life isn't a cartoon, even if you have a class in it........has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps your school offers a class in cartoons as a way of enabling a student to get excited about a class?
Really, and I am a college grad myself, some of the classes available at colleges and universities today is ridiculous. It's like the athletes "basket weaving" class image.
Sure, a couple of people make big money off of cartoons. (relatively speaking). But trust me, your prof has done an amazing job of brainwashing you if you believe there is a deeper meaning in cartoons.
Like I said, I went to college. I had a gen ed class dealing with music - mainly classical music. Now, keep in mind, not only was my prof at my school, he also taught music appreciation at Notre Dame - so he was highly educated............I think he was full of crap. He "disected" some classical music and gave us a running narrative of basically what each note was telling us................gimme a break - Bach, Mozart, etc all wrote music that sounded good to them. They were not making societal statements - they were making music. Yet, because this guy had a phd in music, we all had to toe the line and act like his insight on each note was a breakthrough in societal revelation.
Here's a clue: prof's at schools and universities have to be cutting edge in order to get published - and getting published is what gets them the money. Many of them care what they teach, but many care about getting their name out.
Bottom line? Cartoons are just that - cartoons. There isn't some deeper meaning, regardless of what some prof, or prof assistant says.
Real life will teach you that, and you will learn it. For now, blow smoke for the class you're in, get the grade, and move on.
Don't act like you know me. Thats the pot calling the kettle black, you responded and I answered period.
I could care less if you posted on this board for 6 years thats meaningless and has no bearing on how inmature todays youth is. If cartoons, video games, and comic books get you off so be it, but in the real world they hold NO MEANING at all, and if your being taught in college that in some way they do, then are education system is more screwed up then what I thought.
Don't act like you know me. Thats the pot calling the kettle black, you responded and I answered period.
I could care less if you posted on this board for 6 years thats meaningless and has no bearing on how inmature todays youth is. If cartoons, video games, and comic books get you off so be it, but in the real world they hold NO MEANING at all, and if your being taught in college that in some way they do, then are education system is more screwed up then what I thought.
Then there you go. You hate the generation, and you're using Ammo as an entire source of venting. Do you really think that's fair? He clearly isn't going to take anything you say to heart, and you're not going to change his lifestyle, so let him be.
And the phrase is "couldn't care less". If you could care less then you would care at all to begin with. Perhaps your education system wasn't too strong either.
Ammo has potenial, but instead he's a kid full of excuses. Does this mean I dislike him? No It means I don't respect him, and thats life, and if he keeps going the route he's going he'll be saying welcome to McDonalds how can I take your order. This kid is wasting his mom and dads money on an education he doesn't even respect, his life revolves around getting drunk, arguing with roommates, reading comic books, watching kid cartoons and acting the fool, I can't and will not respect that. The kid needs to grow up, this is my opinion and stand behind it, because if he was "on his own" right now life would chew him up and then spit him out. I feel sorry for him since he's wasting his brain on junk instead of respecting what has been given to him.
As for his birthday thread, I forgot all about that, but I was as I am now speaking the truth again.
I hate the fact that kids waste their parents money, as for the generation no hate, I know many 20 plus year olds who respect what they have been given, but it seems like Ammo and you take that for granted, and thats a damn shame.
So now tell me what gives you the right to label me, when you don't even know me? Again It's the pot calling the kettle black. I've read enough of Ammo's posts to make my comments, so deal with it, if not make some inane statements and I'll be more then happy to call you out. Don't hate me because this kid is wasting his education, or are you doing the same thing? From the sounds of it, you both are wasting a great opportunity and that is ashame.
I'd love to chat more but I have to go get drunk, read a comic and watch Batman.
I love "real world". "Real world" is such a fun phrase to throw around and it covers a lack of basis of a point, because the "real world" can't really be defined by the ones you say aren't in the "real world". I've been out of college, employed, living on my own, paying my own bills for going on three years now. Unless there is a magical sub-universe that I've yet to discover, I'd consider this "real world". In my time in the "real world" I haven't noticed very much of a cultural shift than what I had in college.
I do find humor, however, in you telling Rowdy not to act like he knows you when your very first comment about him in this thread was, and I quote:
Quote: As for you trying to stick up for him doesn't say much about your character, but then again you are probably the same way.
Hmmm....
Lastly, how long has it been since you were in college? As I mentioned, I graduated a hair under three years ago now. Want to know a secret? I would drink in college. I would go to parties in college. I spent a good deal of my free time with friends drinking, watching sports, chasing girls, etc. Guess what? I made the Dean's List for 7 of my 8 semesters and graduated with a 3.8 GPA. I completed a thesis my senior year that was published nationally. I had multiple job offers coming out of college. College is one place that doesn't have to be either/or, where you can excel in class and spend too much time unproductively outside of class. I worked hard. I studied hard. I played hard. I made the most of my four years, both academically and socially. It was sort of the college lifestyle. Just because you see some of the actions as immature, doesn't mean that he won't be successful, that he won't be productive, or anything of that means.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
No need for you to tell me I am right, I already knew that.
If he doesn't want to be "badgered" then he shouldn't set himself up to be picked on, but maybe thats his thrill, being mocked, who knows, but the fact is I know 10 year old's who act more mature then him.
Arch no way would I let my kid act like him, my boy wouldn't make himself out to act a fool.
Quote: Bottom line? Cartoons are just that - cartoons. There isn't some deeper meaning, regardless of what some prof, or prof assistant says.
I will agree with you on academia's tendency to overcompensate, but I take exception with the general idea.
Fletch -- what solid ground do you have to stand on, sir? I know plenty of extremely intelligent 'intellectuals' that would find our love of the Cleveland Browns to be boorish and no more silly than cartoons. I don't happen to agree with them, and I don't agree with you. No man can tell another what intellect they are gaining for their endeavors.
As for a sense of anti-intellectualism...I blame the education system, but not for the reasons people here do. School does not provide students with an open forum to discuss what books or writings they are passionate about. They are forced to read what has been deemed a 'classic' and forced to deconstruct it in a tired manner (as Arch said). It becomes mechanical. No one enjoys it.
I think there should be a progression. I think comic books should be read in school. I think cartoons can foster a learning system. The point of education is to make someone want to learn. Once you've done that, the education system and it's validity no longer matter. Look even to "Looney Tunes" - classical music, plot arches, recurring themes. In fact, most of the time I've heard someone describing what dramatic irony is, they often cite Wily E. Coyote running off a cliff into thin air before he notices he's falling.
You find it laughable that Ammo examines metaphors in life from Batman cartoons, but don't you, don't we all, pin many of those same metaphors to a freaking football team? You don't think others don't find that 'anti-intellectual'?
Good for you, but never once have I read a post by you making yourself out to be a fool, so I have no clue why you would compare yourself to Ammo, you seem to get it, where as Ammo, is well, watching cartoons.
I do find humor, however, in you telling Rowdy not to act like he knows you when your very first comment about him in this thread was, and I quote:
Quote: As for you trying to stick up for him doesn't say much about your character, but then again you are probably the same way.
Hmmm....
I'm glad someone found the utter irony in that as well, thank you Log.
And once again, now you're judging me, Fletch. Yet you still want to use the same phrase about the old pot and kettle. You started it. And you're still doing it. I'm wasting my education? What have I said that makes you think I'm still in college? You're making things up in your head about who I am. I told you I'm not sticking up for Ammo because I see similarities, I don't. But I am sticking up for him because what you're doing is uncalled for.
I've never condoned him reading watching cartoons. I've never condoned him drinking. I've never condoned or disowned anything he does. I've never expressed my opinion on him. The truth is it doesn't matter whether I condone his actions, it won't change his life. He can live his life however he wants, it doesn't matter to me. Worry about yourself, because he is in control of his life. Only he can be. Just accept you have no power over him and leave him alone.
Quote: I hate the fact that kids waste their parents money, as for the generation no hate, I know many 20 plus year olds who respect what they have been given, but it seems like Ammo and you take that for granted, and thats a damn shame.
So now tell me what gives you the right to label me, when you don't even know me? Again It's the pot calling the kettle black. I've read enough of Ammo's posts to make my comments, so deal with it, if not make some inane statements and I'll be more then happy to call you out. Don't hate me because this kid is wasting his education, or are you doing the same thing? From the sounds of it, you both are wasting a great opportunity and that is ashame.
I'd love to chat more but I have to go get drunk, read a comic and watch Batman.
I'm wasting my parents money? I don't value my education? I don't value what my parents have done for me? You base this off of what?
Guess what? I'm in the middle of writing a paper right now! Tomorrow night I have another paper to write and a final presentation to work on where I'm in charge of marketing a product.
For you to say I don't value my education is a joke in and of itself.
PLEASE tell me what I should be doing in my free time oh wise one, when I'm done with all my work and have studied sufficiently?
Should I sit in my apartment and be a hermit? Or go out with my friends, meet people, and have fun? Celebrate 21st birthdays?
Cuz I can tell you right now, those of us with social skills prefer to choose the latter.
I think you just might go into cardiac arrest if you stepped on a big college campus today...
Hey wait a second, what about the 1960's? That time where people were smoking the hippie lettuce, shooting up and having promiscuous sex all over the place?
Because I would submit that I did things in college that were not something that I would be proud of now if they were discovered. I would wager that you might have said some of the same things about me that you are saying about Ammo right now. Plus, you are judging a person off of an internet persona. The beautiful thing about the internet is that it allows us to put out there only the details of ourselves that we want others to see. I would bet a large sum of money that there is more to Ammo than what he has posted about himself on this site, yet this is solely what you are trying to judge a person off of.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
Quote: Good for you, but never once have I read a post by you making yourself out to be a fool
And that is the problem right their. You are reading a person's POSTS ON A MESSAGE BOARD and judging him like you know him in and out. This is still a MESSAGE BOARD and is a form of entertainment for all of us that use it. If we were all as critical and thought as hard about people's posts as you are Ammo's, this place would be a mess.
I guess I'll put in my two cents... I have gone after Ammo on many occasions. If you don't like it, tough. Someone posted about some of us not respecting the younger posters and that couldn't be further from the truth. I don't know the ages of many on here but some of the younger ones I do respect. Deep Threat acts far more mature than Ammo and he is 14. I have met HurricaneDawg and respect him and his posts very much. He is a college student who does not put on an act for others.
I don't know Ammo personally but I can tell from reading his posts that he is very intelligent. I also can tell that he is very egotistical and needs to grow up. He has been posting for years about how much he drinks, even though he just turn 21. He has came on here many, many times making outrageous statements and then coming on later after being called on it that he was drunk. If he wants to act like a child that is his right. It is also my right to post what I think of what he says and does.
This might all be an internet personna. If it is then I guess it really doesn't matter what we say to him. If it's not then we have every right to make assumptions about him from what he writes.
I don't think I have ever gone as far as Fletch has but I can understand why he gets tired of it.
I'm not saying that I don't say stupid things either. I know I have and been called on it. Christy calls me "Holier then thou", DC laughs at me for always apologizing, Jules, well Jules just makes fun of me.
If you guys want to stick up for him that's ok with me. If you want to say that we are wrong to give for giving him crap all I can say is go back and read more of his posts. Tyler Derden is another one that gets under my skin with the crap he says. Are you people also defending him?
Flat out Fletch, where the hell do you get off passing judgement on someone you don't know? Because he goes to parties? Because he watches cartoons...adult oriented or otherwise? Because he likes video games?
Seriously, what the hell makes you the authority on how people should live their lives?
Ammo is is college and doing what people in college do. Its a period in many people's life where life is centered on fun. There is NOTHING wrong with it. He's still getting his grades and getting by so what's the problem??? NOTHING.
Just because he doesn't go to bed at 9 at night and study for 5 hours everyday doesn't mean he's not a good student or not a good person.
And you know what slappy? It goes beyond college kids.... I still do alot of the same things that Ammo does and yet I have a high ranking job, make good money, have investments, provide for my child and live a good life.... Do I need to grow up too Fletch?
The fact is that you are intolerant and close-minded. You think that if people don;t fit into your box then there's something wrong with them. In fact, my know-it-all little friend, there is something wrong with you.
By the way, I'd LOVE to hear what makes you an authority on what is right and wrong with the way people live their lives.... It must be spectacular.
I have a great career, just bought my own home - all the fancy toys to go with it, just bought a new car, put myself through school. I watch cartoons and play video games. Oh, I also go out to parties, bars and clubs too.
See, I can respect you more because at least you're handling it in a mature fashion. Fletch wants to call people immature and then does it in a more immature way then anyone else.
As for Ammo talking about drinking, I don't read enough anymore to have too thorough of a knowledge of Ammo's posting history, but didn't you drink before 21? The point about him just turning 21 is kind of moot, I'd say most people drink before they're 21.
I don't know Ammo at all, but based on what he's being ragged on for, it's uncalled for. A lot of people do the things he does, no matter what their age. And no one should be acting so high and mighty to tell him how to live. That's my problem with all of this. I'm not making any judgment on Ammo, and neither should anyone else. "Real life" means something different to everyone, and no one is right. Fletch has a problem grasping that.
You make it sound like anyone that has any fun is wasting their life. The kid is in college, the last of his young free years. As long as he is fulfilling his educational obligations, it should not matter if he parties, watches cartoons, or whatever with his free time.
And to judge someone by a few pixels of text on a PC monitor is really absurd. emotion, body language, and vocal tones are all important features of conversation, all of which are not present on a message board. This is evident by the regular occurrence of posts being mis-interpreted.
I don't always agree with Ammo's posts, well in fact I don't think I have ever agreed with any of his posts , but then I don't agree with one of my best friends views on most things either. I certainly will not just him or his life on a few things posted on a message board, it's not my place to judge him.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
The tone of this thread should tell us a bit about the topic chosen.
We are debating as to whether America's citizens are getting dumber.
Instead of taking the time to prove our points we are discussing personal attacks and video games and intellectualism. After batting each other around for awhile why not consider what it means to be smarter or dumber?
Intellectualism should not be a goal in itself but rather an important part in molding the minds of others.
At one time an educated person would study logic, Latin, philosophy to train their minds to reason out rational thought. This was believed to be the catalyst to change inequities in society and to enlighten fellow members of society. We now skip over the logic and philosophy and head straight to whatever the prevailing popular take on any issue may be without dissected and perfecting it.
Who knows if we are smarter or dumber than our great grandparents were. We certainly have a wider range of options to take advance of learning facilities, but we never receive the basic training to rationally and logically inspect the different aspects of a given issue. We tend to stick our finger to the wind of the majority and proceed.
Unless we are extrememly fortunate our choices fairly often will be wrong since there really are many more emotional thinkers than logical reasoners out there.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
I don't know that we as a society are any smarter or dumber than previous generations. I would bet we are actually smarter based on knowledge.
But were we fail I think, is common sense, manners and politeness. Most of our society is so self-absorbed in themselves, and judge everyone else based on their own standards. Most people now are more about them, and what they need, they pay no attention to the person they just pushed out of the way to get where they are, a lack of respect for others.
On an basis of knowledge, society has alot more access to knowledge and we generally just know alot more than generations before us, we don't always use that knowledge properly, but we know it.
There was a post on here or another board I visit about a test from 100 years ago, and how things had changed. There wasn't 1 question o the test I could answer, not because I'm dumb, but because most of the information that was considered important 100 years ago is no longer relevant in today's society.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
U.S. falls in education rank compared to other countries
The United States is falling when it comes to international education rankings, as recent studies show that other nations in the developed world have more effective education systems.
In a 2003 study conducted by UNICEF that took the averages from five different international education studies, the researchers ranked the United States No. 18 out of 24 nations in terms of the relative effectiveness of its educational system.
Another prominent 2003 study, the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, shows a steady decline in the performance of American students from grades 4 to 12 in comparison to their peers in other countries.
In both studies, Finland, Australia, Belgium, Austria, Hungary, Netherlands and the United Kingdom beat the United States, while the Asian nations of South Korea, Japan and Singapore ranked first through third, respectively.
The TIMSS study is a comprehensive study done on a four-year cycle that measures the progress of students in math and science in 46 participating countries. It evaluates fourth, eighth and 12th-graders through questionnaires, tests and extensive videotaping of classroom environments.
The TIMSS results reveal a lot about the weaknesses of the U.S. education system, said David Marsh, a professor at the University of Southern California Rossier School of Education. “In fourth grade, American kids do above average internationally. By eighth grade, they slip a bit, and by 12th-grade, they’ve slipped a lot,” Marsh said. “We’re the only country that slides down that much from fourth to 12th grade.”
Although studies have attempted to illuminate the reasons for this downward slide, no conclusive explanations have been drawn.
The UNICEF report finds that educational success or failure is not directly linked to funding, and that there is no clear link between student-to-teacher ratios and test results. By international standards, the United States spends a lot of money on education, and in terms of class sizes, a lot of countries that do well have larger class sizes than the United States, Marsh said.
Marsh said that he attributes U.S. rankings to a different set of reasons —namely, the way material is being taught in classrooms.
“The United States focuses more on procedure, and we try to teach many topics fast. Other countries tend to break topics up and go much more in-depth. They work on the concept, not just the procedure,” Marsh said. “Countries that did well in rankings focused on teaching the ideas and taught a few topics a year. Kids will learn what a fraction really is, not just how to add or subtract them.”
For example, teachers in the United States tend to teach in whole numbers, while other countries use rulers so children are able to see that there are numbers between whole numbers, Marsh said.
When kids are taught the procedure, and not the concept behind a subject, they tend to forget more quickly, he said.
Peter Luevano, assistant principal at Jefferson High School, cites different reasons for the decline in the U.S. education system.
“There are environmental factors that are involved. I think there’s a shift in the mentality of both kids and parents,” he said. “Kids value different things these days, and schools are more diverse than they were 15 or 20 years ago. We’re more open culturally, but that has caused more division rather than unity in the country. Parent involvement has also decreased, and there are also discipline factors involved. Schools have lost a lot of control.”
But the United States is taking steps toward improving education standards in the country. In 2002, the Bush administration signed the No Child Left Behind Act, which places accountability for progress upon schools and doles out regular standardized testing. The act is geared toward encouraging higher academic achievement among students, particularly those that come from poor minority backgrounds.
But some students at USC cannot see how the law is proving effective.
“Because the only way we measure how well students do is through testing, teachers end up teaching how to take the test, and not necessarily the subject matter,” said Megan Baaske, a sophomore majoring in history and communication. “Great, students can take a test, but they don’t know anything.”
“The U.S. caters to students’ needs and wants,” said Matias Sueldo, a sophomore majoring in international relations who spent part of his education in Argentina. “Kids here learn to pass a test, but they don’t learn the concepts. In Argentina, you either know it or you don’t.” Emily Gamelson, a junior majoring in history, thinks that the low student achievement in U.S. schools has a lot to do with the lack of competition.
“Ambition and the motivation to achieve aren’t really inspired in our education system,” Gamelson said. “Since education is available to everyone, there’s not a lot of competition in our schools. Other countries force kids to focus at an earlier age, and there’s more competition to deal with.”
Some countries offer more incentives for students to do better. In Denmark and Finland, for instance, ninth and 10th grade are separated from 11th and 12th grade, encouraging students to do better and compete to get into the higher grades.
“It’s basically the teaching system, the values and cultures of a country that underlie its education system,” Sueldo said. “Other factors like funding really have nothing to do with it.” But Luevano said that he thinks there are difficulties in even comparing U.S. schools, especially public ones, to ones abroad.
“Other countries might have a more homogenous population,” he said. “(Here) you have different cultures, different communities and kids who come from different backgrounds. You don’t have the same socioeconomic standards. It’s hard to be compared.”
Nevertheless, the published education rankings remain displeasing to some people.
“I think it’s ironic that the United States is the richest and most powerful country in the world and yet we can’t even properly educate our own students,” Baaske said. “Our priorities are in the wrong place.”
But Marsh believes we can make a change for the better.
“If we do this right, we can be a real educational leader in the world,” he said. “But the state of education in the United States is a serious situation that demands our attention.”
I think traditional styles of education are going on the wayside and we'll focus more on a discussion-based style of teaching.
Knowledge is power, but we're a simple Google search away from all the knowledge we could ask for.
English, grammar and writing skills will always be essential, so will basic math, history and science. However, in our schools we need more of a focus on computer technology, how to use computers and new technology and media analysis and most of all, self-awareness.
English needs more of a focus on modern-day literature. Why not analyze comics like we do Shakespeare and other poetry?
While we're at it, why not analyze film? I'm talking truly great works like Citizen Kane, Casablanca, etc.
Most of all, one thing we never focused on in high school was the understanding of one's self and others beyond the whole "Teasing hurts" thing. That's one thing I've learned in many of my discussion classes, the more you understand yourself and others, the closer you are to TRUE knowledge.
I sound like I'm saying "bring college-style classes to high school." That's not exactly the case...I'm saying there's only so much traditional math, history, etc we can learn. High school education is such a narrow path...to prepare you to pass standardized testing.
IMO, standardized tests aren't a solution. Some people aren't good test takers but are brilliant in discussion, while others sound like morons in discussion but are brilliant test-takers.
I think the value of a liberal arts education can't be taken for granted. Lost in everything is a focus on self-awareness. Self-awareness and awareness of others is an invaluable knowledge that more people desperately need.
Quote: I hate the fact that kids waste their parents money, as for the generation no hate, I know many 20 plus year olds who respect what they have been given, but it seems like Ammo and you take that for granted, and thats a damn shame.
So now tell me what gives you the right to label me, when you don't even know me? Again It's the pot calling the kettle black. I've read enough of Ammo's posts to make my comments, so deal with it, if not make some inane statements and I'll be more then happy to call you out. Don't hate me because this kid is wasting his education, or are you doing the same thing? From the sounds of it, you both are wasting a great opportunity and that is ashame.
So the more I read this, the more it becomes apparent that you hate our generation, and Ammo as a member of the generation. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.
But why exactly do you have to personalize it to smear insults at Ammo all over the board.
As far as I can tell, college is a place to experiment, find out what you like, what you dislike, and how you want to live the rest of your life. That not only includes academics and jobs, although that is a major part. Perhaps a more important part is what you see yourself doing in the time that you have not devoted to your career, that is: friends, relationships, party life, hobbies etc.
If Ammo wants to spend his free time watching cartoons, who the hell cares? If he wants to get drunk? He's not flunking out of school apparently. And from his own posts, the only source I have on this, he's doing pretty well.
There are quite a few friends of mine who joke with me for posting on a board/spending a ridiculous amount of time following the NFL draft and free agency. You'd probably find a lot of people out there willing to criticize you for the same things, wasting time on a message board talking to teenagers? But this is what I like to do, and it helps relieve the stress of the other work I do. Does it interfere negatively with that work? Sometimes. Sometimes I screw up. Does it make me a bad person? Maybe, but unless you're going to argue that you've never spent a moment on this board, or watching a browns game or thinking about football that you shouldn't have, you can't really be free from the blame.
Simply put, Ammo is living his life according to his own decision criteria, same as the rest of us. If you don't like it, fine. But to waste your time insulting him on every thread in this board, seems to show how much you value your own time.
~Lyuokdea
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
Quote: Knowledge is power, but we're a simple Google search away from all the knowledge we could ask for.
This is the very kind of thinking that makes the thread question valid.
So, shouldn't our education system find new ways to take advantage of this beyond "tools for your research paper?"
Personally, I think an "Information Gathering" class in high school would be invaluable.
It's becoming not what you know, but how you can find the answer to what you don't know.
I know some nights if I have nothing to do I'll spend time on Wikipedia searching random things just to learn new material for my own personal benefit.
Great article Jules but I'm very surprised to say that I don't think that we are getting dumber; I think we have become more inclusive.
When I started reading this thread I was firmly in the "Duh, of course we're stupider" camp and expected the responses of fellow Dawgs to back that up. However by the time I was finished reading arguments for and against the point as well as some ridiculous bickering, I'd decided that what we have here is the result of just about everyone having their say. In the past, we - the commonfolk - did not have the means to put our opinions out there nor did we have access to the opinions of so many others. For the most part the majority of media (by this I mean forms of communication) were produced by reasonably knowledgeable and educated people. Now, almost anyone can reach millions with the push of one button! Imagine if we didn't just read the great authors of the 19th or 20th century but were given the material from those people who did not have the means to educate themselves or proper contacts to get themselves published, we may think that their culture was suspect.
And one more thing, why hasn't anyone brought up the movie, "Idiocracy?"
![[Linked Image from ps3gc.com]](http://www.ps3gc.com/pics/Bigswoll61.png)
, but then I don't agree with one of my best friends views on most things either. I certainly will not just him or his life on a few things posted on a message board, it's not my place to judge him.