DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Savage on Upping Anderson's Offer . . .

I see where you're coming from on this, and you're right to a certain extent. We haven't had good QB play in YEARS. We haven't had the surroundings a QB needs to have a good year though, either. We have an OL that is pretty much stacked from top to bottom. We have a workhorse RB who we actually KNOW can carry the load. And we have offensive weapons all over.

That being said, you still need a QB who knows what the hell they're doing. Most QBs could play back there and be halfway decent. A good QB will takes us places, though. I know the DA has the POTENTIAL to, he just needs to clean up a few things.

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I do understand the quote you brought up again. That's fair. I will say that how can a guy throw 29 TDs, almost 3800 yds., challenge all types of team records; win twice as many games as he lost despite a pathetic defense.........and be called inconsistent?

Dude..............all QBs make bad throws. All QBs make bad decisions. All QBs struggle w/accuracy at times. And if you are REALLY, REALLY looking for those things............you WILL find them. It's a bottom line business and it kills me that we finally had good QB play, an exciting offense, and a winning team.........and people are complaining.

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True, all QBs have flaws and all will make some poor throws.

The thing that kills me with DA is this- we've had such inconsistent QB play for so long......holding on to the ball, poor throws, no time to throw because we had no line nor a running game, etc....now we have Anderson. I'll take Anderson anyday of the week over what we've had. I'm not complaining about that. My gripe is simply this: He can make a beautiful throw one play on a tough pass, then completely screw up a little 5 to 7 yard pass the next? I'm grateful the guy can hit these tough throws, but I'd honestly trade that in for him to be able to consistently make the easy ones and move the chains.

He's making throws many QBs can't or usually don't, but missing the ones all the others can make all the time. It just drives me nuts. Those are throws you HAVE to make. The short little crossing routes, little dump off passes, quick out throws.....you miss some of those passes and we end up in trouble.

Of course it's exciting to see him hit a big play, thread the needle 30 yards to BE for a big gain, but he doesn't make those big plays every game. Sometimes you just gotta take what the D is giving you, and those are the games that I'd trade that all away to have him throwing consistently to the target on his short throws, keeping the chains moving and chewing up the clock.

I don't ask for much, Vers.

I'm getting the sense here that people are judging DA based on the QB's before him in Cleveland. If thats your measuring stick there is a serious problem.

I agree DP, i'll take all the easy throws, and just some of the spectacular, that wins far more games. No different than a RB that can hit the 75yd run but can't get a 3-4 yd gain.

This is all for moot people, DA is the guy. The media and fans can raise all hell, he's the guy until the season starts.

just clicking...

Who believes that Anderson has reached his peak?

Who believes that Anderson will not benefit from having a year of experience starting?

Who believes Anderson will be better in his second year of running Chuds new offense?

Who believes our offensive coaching staff will be better in their second year together?

Anderson was a surprise starter for the Browns last year after Frye was dealt to the Seahawks. It was Anderson's 1st year starting in the NFL and he performed very well.

Did Anderson play like a veteran?...No...

Did Anderson play better than most rookie QBs?...Yes...

Anderson will progress but maybe not fast enough for some of you. It's hard to be patient for some...but hopefully all Browns fans will try.

The only reason I brought up former QBs was because there was a direct comment from Vers related to DA and our QB play of the past. Otherwise, I wouldn't have brought it up.

Alright Mr. Peen....

There it is folks,, unrealistically high requirements to make some people happy.. Wow, Kosar did'nt have those numbers, Sipe didn't have those numbers, Otto Graham didn't have those numbers..



Makes you wonder what some people expect doesn't it?

40% is a bit much.

But the improvement from DA I'm looking for is a 60+% completion percentage, 90+ QB rating and less than 15 INT's. I don't mean to use stats to talk about his play, but this is the best gauge I can use. I'm sure we'd see the improvement with our eyes too.

If he levels off like he did this past year, it doesn't cut the mustard.

I HOPE I see that improvement, I just don't think I will. I'd love to be wrong though.

Okay, so it's wrong of me to want a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. Sue me.

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I agree DP, i'll take all the easy throws, and just some of the spectacular, that wins far more games. No different than a RB that can hit the 75yd run but can't get a 3-4 yd gain.

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He went 10 and 5 as the starter. How many more games did you expect him to win w/that defense. He may have lost us one game, but he sure overcame a crappy defense to win us others.

Also, we sure as hell didn't have as many three and outs as in past seasons. Our third down conversion rate was pretty damn good too.

I still feel you guys are making crap up and really don't have much of a leg to stand on.

You know what I want to see out of Anderson this year?

I want to see more consistency in his footwork and mechanics.

I want to see him maintain his arm all the way through the season ...... which I am firmly convinced created some of his late season problems. It seemed like he screwed up his mechanics trying to compensate for a tired arm as the season wore on.

That's what I want to see.

I've been trying to stay out of this for the most part.

If someone actually sees the sky as green and the grass as blue then no one can convince them otherwise.

I think part of the problem around here is that we've seen such bad QB play for so long that the current negative is magnified and the positive is unconvincing.

Another possible origin of the "problem" can be that DA inspired no confidence from anyone prior to the second game of the 2007 season. Most had him written off as a roster cut. Other than a great game vs. KC in '06 he pretty much looked like a 6th round bust if there is such a thing.

As the '07 season progressed and DA was doing well as our offense was one of the most successful in theleague. Fans may have been biting their nails waiting for him to be that bust and screw everything up. When he had a bad game vs. cincy at the end of the season, with playoff hopes in the balance, they cried, "Ah, ha!, I knew it."

Still another possibility is that this fanbase is simply not used to winning. I've heard arguements against that before because no one wants to be that guy. But many fans remind me of the rich girl who received a new red sports car for her birthday and whined to daddy because she wanted the blue one. We haven't had a winning season of any merit for so long. When we finall got one, and came this close to getting into the playoffs, fans became greedy and are looking for a scapegoat as to why their dreams were not fullfilled. They ignore a diplorable defense and lay it all on the QB. What is not typical about that?

Yet another, and one I've heard mentioned many, many times on here is that some, "just want to see what Quinn can do".



Though stats don't interest me much, a QB who throws for 3800 yards, 29 TD's, wins twice as many games as he loses with absolutely no help whatsoever from his defense (having sometimes to overcome his own defense), wins every home game he started, and does all it while being in the very first season of a brand new offense cannot considered to be a problem.

In the past, when throwing into double coverage, balls either went incomplete or intercepted. This season they were caught. Partly due to the gained experience and improvement of the receivers, but also, to a great extent, due to a better ball being thrown by the QB. Many of those passes thrown into coverage that went for big gains, 3rd down completions and even TD's may not have even been thrown last season. Many of them would have been considered "bad decisions" and they would indeed have been if made by a QB with a lesser arm.

At this point, after all I've read on here, even though few even mention his name, I am certain that had Quinn played and had the exact same season as DA, every decision, every throw, every pick, every win and every stat being identical, the fanbase would build a statue in honor of him and be convinced that we have our QB of the future.

There's a lot about DA that I don't like. I've voiced some of that before. But given all the facts that make up the 2007 season I can hardly be disappointed in him.

Maybe some of that confort level comes from having Quinn on board. That means DA is not the end all if he fails so there's still an option without going through the nearly impossible task of finding yet another QB. It's not so crucial when you have a backup plan. The worst that could happen as the team decides who the future QB will be would be a less than spactacular, less than hoped for '08 season. That's not the end of the world.

I think you're right that in as far as serious concerns about this team, there are more pressing issues on the defense that have the stronger possibility of hurting our '08 season.

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I want to see more consistency in his footwork and mechanics.

I want to see him maintain his arm all the way through the season ...... which I am firmly convinced created some of his late season problems. It seemed like he screwed up his mechanics trying to compensate for a tired arm as the season wore on.

That's what I want to see.

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That's certainly not asking for too much and would make for a great deal of improvement.

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It makes me wonder what people are thinking when they think that 40% improvement would have to come in raw/statistical numbers.

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You know what Shep,, you are right, but still, no matter what, it's the way some people look at stats..

I keep wondering if anyone would complain if DA threw for 30 TD, 35 INT's, 50% completion and a 60 QB rating,,, But won the Superbowl,,, what would be the thinking then I wonder?

Oh wait, I guess then you would have a Dilfer... oddly enough, he wasn't that bad for the Ravens, but they haven't won a SB since he got the boot..

Maybe, sometimes it's enough to have a guy like Dilfer or DA instead of Tom Brady or Payton Manning. Maybe, just maybe it's about winning and stats be damned...

Oh wait, wouldn't that make DA solid also....

This is my last post on this topic until training camp.

I could put together a highlight package of William Green that could make him seem like an All-Pro. I could put together a highlight package of Jason Fisk and his dominating NT play. I could make a highlight package of Frisman Jackson that could make him look like the second coming of Randy Moss.

It wouldn't make it true though.

I could also put together selective statistics on any player to make him seem better or worse than he is. Its fun to look at TDs and Yards while overlooking his 56.5% completion percentage which is near dead last for starting QBs and his 19 INTs which is one off dead last. I could bring up his QB rating of 66.6 (the devils QB rating lol) in December. Or I could bring up his deplorable QB rating of 56.4 in the first Quarter this year.

All of which are true but they don't tell the whole story.

If you and others wish to rewrite history and hold DA's play up as a model year I guess you can do it.

But I want no part of it.

The other 10 players on offense played very very well. DA was either on or off. He either had it going or didn't. I want more from the QB position than I saw this year. Hopefully whoever is the QB this year will deliver it.

I'm done with this topic until the bullets start flying again. Aloha!

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As usual, you're pretty much spot on.

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At the risk of sounding like a member of the mutual admiration society; right back at ya. Why does anyone else bother to post with us around?


In all seriousness though, you are right that "The Deal" explains it all. No one gave up a 1st and 3rd and $60 million as if he were the next Joe Montana nor did the Browns low ball him as if he were junk. The deal says what the Browns thought of him last season and it's a far cry from he can't do this and he can't do that.

He has holes and is a work in progress. The deal says that. He has some very good upside. The deal says that too. The deal also says that Brady Quinn has a chance to become the QB of the future. And it says that he too has holes and is not considered a lock to be a superstar at this point.

The wait and see position the Browns have chosen is the smart choice. There is no reason to make a hasty decision on the most important position on the team. The idea of giving themselves as much time as is needed to make the right decision is long-term thinking. It's not a knee-jeerk reaction to a couple of good throws or a couple of bad ones.

The organization has squarely put themselves in the best postition to succeed on this issue.

To both you and Toad.

IT WAS NOT ABOUT THE HIGHLIGHT REEL. Jesus, guys.

It was about the fact that he did throw many passes w/great touch. You guys were saying he couldn't do that. The videos prove that he does indeed throw the ball w/great touch. It wasn't even about completing them. It was about his touch.

Just once...............admit that perhaps you were mistaken, instead of trying to change the argument and belittle the means by which the information was provided. I've admitted that I've been wrong numerous times. It's not such a big deal. And it sure beats trying to belittle the poster who doesn't agree w/you.

Like I said from the beginning.........."it should be interesting." I knew some of you wouldn't see what is right before your eyes. It's because you don't want to. Sorry, but it makes me wonder about other things you post w/such conviction.

The fact is that DA does throw w/touch. And the highlight reels actually don't do him justice. Most of his touch passes were passes out of the backfield, and very few of those make the highlight reels. But, damn man...........I certainly provided numerous clips that included him making touch passes all over the field.

Oh............one more time. It's not about what great plays they were. It is about the fact that they were thrown w/touch.

Vers, if I could step in for a minute. I don't think people were being literal when they said he couldn't throw with touch. What they meant, or at least what I am going to say is that he has no consistency with his tough. That isn't even debateable. He just doesn't. He is a all or nothing QB with his touch and accuracy. For every touch pass you can point to, I can point to a pass where he showed no touch. Even on many completed passes, BE and KW2 bailed out bad passes with incredible catches. Yes, DA has shown touch AT TIMES. Just as often he has shown no touch. Until he masters the mechanics and doesn't abandon them, he will continue to be erratic with his touch and accuracy.

I bet our buddy Diam was probably putin restraints so he wouldn't get invoved.

I get the point your making. He can throw touch passes. Although everyone might not word it properly, I think what the majority of people are meaning is that his accuracy and the touch he should use are very inconsistant. Someone on here talked about slant passes. If anyone really believes he needs touch on those the need their head examined. What troubles me (and I feel a lot others) most is the amount of little swing passes he screws up on. He has thrown some very well but he also blows it way too much. His comp. percentage is terrible on these type of throws, something he must improve.

That is what hurt him the most late in the season IMO. DA was so good at completing plays for long gains it did force defenses to change their schemes. I agree with you that played a huge part in opening up the run. It also opened up the underneath stuff that he struggled with.

Downfield I think he tends to make far more good plays then bad, whether you are judging accuracy or touch. I agree with you that when people look at his completetion percentage they don't take it into account that he makes many big plays, including on third down.

I don't want to get into the whole stats debate, but I want you to look at a couple of situational stat pages and tell me if you can conclude anything from them.

http://www.nfl.com/players/derekanderson/situationalstats?id=AND180512

There are some pretty sharp contrasts on this page.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7389/situational;_ylt=AjeooIpuPQt1gLZTbhd6oEf.uLYF

Note... Look at what down the majority of picks are on.

I tried looking at them, but they made my head spin. Just tell me what I was supposed to conclude. I'll believe you. *L*

Was it that he threw more picks on shorter routes than longer routes? Is there an interception ratio for each of those yardage throws? I looked for it, but didn't see it. I would imagine that he threw more shorter passes than longer ones, so it would seem that more picks would come w/in that range.

Or, isn't that what I was supposed to conclude? LOL.........I don't know man, you tell me. I hate looking at that many stats. When I broke down stats, I only focused on one thing at a time. Of course, I was doing it as a coach trying to exploit something or fix a negative......and not as a fan trying to make a QB look bad.

PDawg........you know me. When I am wrong, I admit it. I'm not wrong about DA's touch. I am not wrong about his accuracy. He has his weaknesses and I outlined them earlier in this thread. I'll stand behind everything I've said. I do need to add something.............I just mentioned his accuracy. I better clarify. When DA is using proper mechanics, he is as accurate as any QB in the NFL. He does sometimes struggle w/mechanics and his accuracy suffers. But, if you watched the Super Bowl...........did you notice that Brady's accuracy suffered too when his mechanics went to hell. A strong pass rush up the middle will do that to you. *L*

I've read a lot of stuff on here, but I think YTown has it the closest. You can take what I say as something to consider, or dismiss it like many of these other guys. <<shrug>>

I'll stand by my assertion that DA has terrible touch, especially on passes less than 10 yards down field. He left a lot of yards on the field rocketing passes into the ground where...if he had shown touch...and led the WR/RB/FB appropriately with a nice, soft throw that they could catch in stride....they could have had big chunks of yards.

It happened all the time with Vickers.

Now I'm not saying that he never threw a ball with touch.....the pass to Lewis in overtime against Seattle was a great throw.....but he threw balls with appropriate touch so rarely that it's obvious to anyone who watched the games that he has terrible touch.

And I'm not peeing in your Wheaties but you sure are acting like it. If you want to admit you're wrong that's great....but I won't hold my breath. Take care.

You weren't supposed to make any certain conclusions. I just wanted to see if you could find any tendancies.

The part of the picks was that he threw 12 on first down. It can mean different things but what I read into it is that he actually tends to make better decisions/or throws later in downs.

The first link showed his stats for passes in groupings of ten. The 1st 10, 11-20, etc. His 1st 10 passes on average are horrible. After that he tends to settle down.

The one stat on here I can't find is 3rd down conversions when passing. Looking at the numbers on the second link it shows that average yds. per attempt is almost as high as yards needed.


Without complete data I can't be sure but what I take from that is although his comp. ratio is in the 51-52% range the average yds. per catch indicates that when he completes on 3rd and long (avg. over 14 ypc on 3rd and more than 8) it tends to be a 1st down. I bet if I checked (and probably will) that even though far more QBs have higher 3rd down completetion percentages their success rate will be lower. He did throw 6 picks in 159 attempts on 3rd down which is better than what he does on 1st down.

From what I remember seeing from the games (the old eyeball test) these stats tend to backup my assumptions. He tends to make big plays when needed the most, on 3rd and long.

Pdawg....

I don't know if you can find it but I'd like to see DA's stats broken down by area.

0-9 yds left
0-9 yds middle
0-9 yds right
10-19 yds left
10-19 yds middle
10-19 yds right
20+ yds left
20+ yds middle
20+ yds right

If my memory serves me...

His 0-9 quadrants would rank near the bottom of the league.
His 10-19 would be above average
His 20+ would be well above average...especially left. For some reason I remember a good deal of his best throws were to that side. not sure why off the top of my head.

I thought I found those before but I don't remember where. I recently purged my favorites.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7389/situational;_ylt=AjeooIpuPQt1gLZTbhd6oEf.uLYF

At this link they do break it down by far left, left, middle, etc...But not distance. They do break down down& distance but that doesn't indicate how far the throws are.

I used to have many sllepless nights and would rewatch all the games and chart things like this. I also deleted all the games off my DVR so I can't do that anymore.

Well I recalled that most of the big plays were to the left and that rang true.

To the left:
19 TDs
2022 yds
7 Ints
106 passer rating

To the right:
8 TDs
1273 yds
10 Ints
64 passer rating

I've seen the "tic tac toe" board on FOX games where they break down left middle right and short medium and long.

If you find it let us know.

I found this: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8627

CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT ATT YDS AVG LNG TD
Pass Thrown: Behind line 33 61 259 54.1 4.25 34 1 1 0.0 63.5 0 0 0.0 0 0
Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds. 176 277 1589 63.5 5.74 50 12 8 0.0 81.3 0 0 0.0 0 0
Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds. 74 146 1399 50.7 9.58 49 10 8 0.0 84.2 0 0 0.0 0 0
Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds. 11 28 324 39.3 11.57 45 2 0 0.0 106.8 0 0 0.0 0 0
Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds. 4 13 216 30.8 16.62 78 4 2 0.0 79.8 0 0 0.0 0 0
Pass Thrown: 41+ yds. 0 2 0 0.0 0.00 0 0 0 0.0 39.6 0 0 0.0 0 0

And again it points to my biggest problem with him....touch. How does a NFL QB only complete 54% of his passes behind the line of scrimmage???

For Comparison:

Tom Brady: 75%
Drew Brees: 71%
Brett Farve: 71%
Cleo Lemon: 65%
Chad Pennington: 75%

Those are just the ones I clicked. DA probably has the worst short pass completion percentage in the NFL. A QB with touch doesn't complete less than 2/3rds of those passes....EVER

Right on..HeldDawg. Unfortunatley your not gona convince anyone. I totally agree that you can't call DA accurate, having touch or w/e when his com% is under 60% anywhere on the field. His % from 11-20 is the key since those are the stick throws needed on a regular basis.

IMO He has very much to prove in 2008.

1. Beat good teams

2. Win on the road

3. Beat a cover 2 scheme

4. Get his completion % over 60

5. Learn to make good decsions consistently

6. Limit INT's to under 16

Not to change the subject......

Since DA has done practically none of the above, I really get tired of people getting their panties in a bunch when anyone brings up Quinn; and in the same breath praise DA for all he's done. Which is beat a bunch of bad teams at home, then fail on the road once teams got some film on him.

It's ok to call Quinn a bust, but don't say he MIGHT actually be good, love the logic.

Agreed. Anderson has a lot of improving to do and I do hope Quinn gets an honest chance at the job. May the best man win.

And i clicked a few of the worst QBs

Brodie Croyle 75%
Vince Young 80%

the only ones in the ballpark of DA:

Rex Grossman 55%
Eli Manning 55%

DA is dead last in that statistic.

But oh oh oh...DA has great touch....the sky is green....etc etc

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Agreed. Anderson has a lot of improving to do and I do hope Quinn gets an honest chance at the job. May the best man win.

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I wish that was how it was gonna be, but it can't because the Browns want DA as the guy in 2008. They can fall back to 2007 if DA plays poorly in pre-season and camp and saying " he did in 2007 too"

We won't get a look at Quinn until the wheels fall off for DA, which won't be a good situation for the Browns..which is why your right the best man should win and an open competition should decide it.

Too bad it won't happen, any Browns offical that comes out and says there is an open competition is laughable, everyone knows its DA's job regardless, Phil has made that extremely clear.

Nothing like handing Jobs out to players that have serious things to prove.

I still really want to see what Quinn can do. He's got a year under his belt, there's no holdout, the offense has been together for a year......

The what-if's just kill me....... obviously it doesn't work that way. We'll see them both in camp. As long as the right guy is out there. That's all I'm asking for. But if the right guy is Quinn, and he's sitting on the bench because of a stubborn ass FO move, then I'll be upset. If the right guy is Derek, then I have no problem with that.

That's all I ask for. Play the right guy. Give this team the BEST chance to win as we have. Whoever it may be, play him.

TIM

KELLY

TIM


KELLY

BRADY

ANDERSON

TIM

KELLY

THe names change but the deadbate continues

You like to carry the flag for the underdawg and the unfairly maligned. That's admirable. However, I can't help but wonder if you've chosen to take on this perticular fight with those that favor Quinn, solely because they favor Quinn no matter what.

Bingo!! We have a winner.

I thought you were done?

There are a few of you guys who are completely unfair. You talk about only the negatives.

However, the facts tell a different story.

--We were 10 and 5 w/this bum at QB.

--The over/under was 5.5. That's the guys in Vegas.

--Frye was the same old Frye, despite all that talent around in him in game one.

--He was sacked about six times in about a half of football.

--DA was rarely sacked the rest of the year.

--DA threw for over 3700 yds. Nearly 3800 yds.

--He threw 10 more TDs than picks.

--He led our offense to near records in several categories. Points, wins, yards, TDs, etc. But, you post his per completion percentage on short throws. That's objective.

--Our offense bailed out a terrible defense repeatedly.

--DA was a first-year starter. Want to post the stats of other QBs in their first year? Nah, didn't think so.

--His teammates love him.

--Savage said he has a ton of upside.

--RAC chose him as a starter and probably will again.

--The Browns showed him the money, and I guess that is the bottom line. Do you guys really believe that if the two QBs were performing in a similar manner during practices, that they would have given DA the money?

Yet, you guys ignore all of that and tell me that his stats on shorter throws are more meaningful than the videos. *L* I guess those stats couldn't be skewed by the fact that he may have thrown the ball away, or was hurried after checking down because his down field receiver was not open? Nope.........it's a tell-all, end-all stat. But watching him throw multiple passes w/perfect touch means nothing because it was on a highlight reel.


Toad: You can tell me.....actually you are telling everyone.......that I don't know what I'm talking about in regards to the touch thing. Go ahead, convince yourselves of that. I'll stand on my history on these boards. I would venture to say that most people who have been on these boards for awhile, know I don't make crap up. But, you'll have a following. Hope you enjoy their company.

Thats one thing I can say about you Vers, you don't make stuff up.

I agree with you for the most part DA has a huge upside and did positive things. The team was good, but I've seen multiple times on many teams around the league that are hindered by their QB play. I didn't see us last year have to limit our offense because DA couldn't make this throw or that throw.

DA even showed flashes of how good he could be in '06 with limited starts, he has room for improvement but he isn't a garbage heap of a QB like a lot are saying.