DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum 4 assistants fired from Browns!

[color:"red"] Savage is now in a position to help Crennel put together his second coaching staff, mostly on offense [/color]

From what I'm gathering Phil isn't EXACTLY HELPING Rac to assemble the new staff..he's putting his own stamp on it..or more of his own stamp I should say..
Rac may suggest they interview certain people and they may but those candidates won't be hired..
I still say look at who finally gets the jobs..
I'm going to say something that might suprise a few but not others..
More logic here.
Would Phil bring in whole new offensive staff this year if he were gonna turn around and bring in an outside HC next year who'd wanna bring in his own OC? <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
That'd be three offensive systems in 3 years for at least 2 young QB's who are already confused....3 if we draft another.
That'd be professional suicide for Phil and I think he's smarter than that.

Agreed

[color:"white"]Hehehe..........So he finds a nodding-head smiley.

Very well done *L* [/color]

[color:"gold"]I doubt that Savage had much power over who Crennel brought in to fill out his staff.

Savage had Collins hanging around his neck that first year and who, at that time was going to tell Crennel no, that's not a good hire?

Now the situation has turned about 180 degrees as Crennel's picks on the offensive side turned out to be unproductive. Savage now has unlimited power within the organization, answering only to Lerner.

Crennel's second offensive staff will be the responsibility of Savage and whom ever is hired as OC. If the new OC has people he wants on his staff, then those hires will fall on the new OCs shoulders. [/color]

Some time back I wouldn't, but now....yes.

I get the impression Phil is a one man team who is pretty much going to run the entire show.

I almost see it as if Savage will get his coordinators who will do it his way, and can pretty much have anybody in place as "head coach".

He picks the players he wants, has roster control, now seemingly controls the team identity....all he really needs is someone to carry the clipboard and face the press after the Browns lose.

But....that's just my opinion.

[color:"white"]
Er........I don't agree. Not in the least, hehe.

Let's stop trying to plug everything into a black and white world here. We see reports that say RAC didn't have hiring and firing ability. We see reports that suggest Opie may not have had input to the coaches.

Now let's play where the world exists: The Gray Area.

Opie and RAC worked together to bring the staff into existence. RAC needed to have guys that would think like he thought and do the things that he wanted done. That only makes sense. It wouldn't make sense for Opie to hire him then bring in his own people. That's a disaster to start off a regime that way.

Opie took RAC's suggestions to heart and hired his guys. It failed. Now here we are. Opie is going to do this his way, but he's throwing RAC a bone by allowing him one more chance to prove he's a legitimate head coach. If he is, he should be able to adapt to the coaches that Opie is going to bring in.

Opie is being as fair as he possibly can be, all things considered. There are many GM's who wouldn't give RAC this second chance. [/color]

So if that were the case, Phil Savage basically runs this organization...do you have a problem with that?

And if you do, why? He is seemingly the most competent person we have had here since our reincarnation.

[color:"white"] That's why I think the next OC will be someone like Fassell or Mularkey.... A good co-ordinator, who can and probably will take over as head coach when Romeo is gone, keeping the same offensive scheme.[/color]

It would be ILLOGICAL for Phil to put a new staff in this year, then turn around next year and bring in a new coach who wants HIS OWN STAFF..
So IMO either Rac retires/resigns/or is let go if things go south..and they bring in a new coach WHO will yield to the staff in place(there are varibles in this senero) or PROMOTE from within.

[color:"white"]I'm more of a conspiracy theory guy, in that I believe they'd rather go with someone who'll run the offense that Opie wants to run, with the idea that RAC isn't good enough to survive the season. They'll then go out and get Cowher or someone of that caliber. [/color]

The GM should be running the organization.... The coach has considerable input, and runs the games, but the GM runs the organization. I think we've all seen where Romeo's input and demeanor has gotten him.... It's do or die time for Romeo's career in Cleveland...

We don't want another Butch show... where the coach is in charge of everything. What would we have now if Romeo had been given the same power Davis had??? <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[color:"white"]The Mo Carthon Experience.[/color]

[color:"gold"] Toad...here, you are agreeing with what I said, that RAC got the guys he wanted and Savage hired them based on RAC's input. [/color]



[color:"gold"] Toad...then you write the sentence above which seem to contradict what you wrote in the sentence before this one. You are rather vague saying " It wouldn't make sense for Opie to hire him "...I'm assuming your saying that Savage hired Crennel?

If so, that not correct because there were three people who hired Crennel...Lerner, Collins and Savage.

Toad...then the rest of your sentence says..."then bring in his own people."

To me, it sounds like your trying to say that Savage brought in his own people..and we know that Carthon was Crennel's guy and as for who was Savages "people", I don't know who would have been that person/coach.

I stand by what I said, Savage hired whom Crennel wanted as at that time, Crennel had the power to request who he wanted on his staff. I seriously doubt that Savage was in a position to tell Crennel, no, I'm gonna bring "my people".

[/color]

[color:"white"]
Yes Mac, I did agree with you there. Remember that we're talking about starting off a regime.

[color:"white"]

It's only a contradiction if you exclude the sentence right after that one, which you just happened to have done <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Here's BOTH sentences:


[color:"white"]
To sum it up, when starting a regime, you have to have a coaches input on who he wants to have for his staff. However, two years and numerous problems and screwups later, the GM has to fix things if they are broken. Right now, they are badly broken. So Savage has to step in now and bring in his own people, which wouldn't have been the thing to do at the beginning.

No contradiction, just clarification.

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Sometimes I give people too much credit for having common sense. Bringing in an experience OC, who has a head coaching background makes for sense than just goofing off for one more year. The best reason for keeping Romeo is continuity. The reason for bringing in Mularkey of Fassell is also continuity...into the future. I can't say that I like the idea of the GM getting into coaching too much, such as picking the offense and running the plays...hehe...If that happens, we might as well trade Learner for Al Davis... <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> At lest Davis has head coaching experience... <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You could be right... I hope not, but who knows...

I agree 100%.....so Phil will go out and get someone willing to take the team as it is.

We have read Savage has draft control and in the end, roster control. That in itself is going to eliminate a large number of qualified coaches.

I almost see it as if Savage is the head coach. The OC calls the offense, the DC calls the defense and then you just need some game manager on the sideline to call timeouts, throw red flags and decide if you kick or receive if you win the toss.

[color:"gold"] Toad...glad to see that you agree with me. Responsibility for the first offensive coaching staff falls on RAC...the second offensive coaching staff will fall on Savage and the new OC if the new OC wants to bring in his own people and Savage agrees. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

[color:"white"]Then there's the other side of the discussion, which would suggest that Opie is looking out for RAC, and doesn't want to further rock his boat by bringing in a guy who's allready been a head coach. RAC is allready a "dead man walking" and by bringing in an OC with HC experience, it could easily further split things.

It'll all depend on how Savage wants to proceed. Like it or not, RAC had his chance to assemble his staff. It didn't pan out. So Opie gets his chance to make the team as he see's fit. [/color]

I think Phil has exactly the head coach he desires. Someone who will agree to pretty much everything Phil wants.

[color:"red"] I almost see it as if Savage is the head coach [/color]
U amaze me... <img src="/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />
It implys nothing of the sort..what I now is is a process being put in place..
They will probably get a OC who COULD possibly be a HC if Rac fails totally..or promote Grantham as HC..with the new OC still in place..
Rac probably is being instructed whoever this new OC is will be hands on and Rac will be hands off to a large degree..
Once it's settled about the HC permanently next season..Phil won't have to make decisions regarding that spot.

I will even go further with this....if this current set-up works....Savages appointed coaches indeed work out..I wouldn't be surprised to end up seeing Savage on the sidelines as "head coach" somewhere down the road.

It looks to me the guy could be setting the table for himself.


Just one of those "wild" ideas that crossed my mind. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Wild, or ludicrous...lol

Funny though....

Too much [color:"blue"]Gatoraide [/color] is bad for the body <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

hehe...it is just a message board. Most of my posting is done in a style as if I was tossing stuff out at a bar with a bunch of buddies.

Sure....it probably won't happen, but if you think about it....why not??

[color:"red"] Most of my posting is done in a style as if I was tossing stuff out at a bar with a bunch of buddies.

[/color]

U mean AFTER U GOT TOSSED out of the bar ..right? <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Phil doesn't want to coach nor get near it..he wants someone who can do the job so he doesn't have to find one..and in case EVERYONE'S forgotten, Rac is more of a product of Lerner than Phil ..or maybe I should say Lerner/Collins..

Basically, I am j/c:

But, I do want to thank Attack for the report.

Guys, most of you are not seeing the truth here. I imagine your interpretations are influenced by your previous perceptions, but I ask that you step back and look at the situation again. I know I'm going to come under more fire for this, and I'm trying to say this as kindly as I can, but seriously...you are not seeing the true picture...that is, if you actually believe what you are typing.

I'm not even going to bother and tell you, because you will just scoff at it like you do everything else I tell you, but I will tell you that this organization is a mess. A complete mess. Moves are being made for the wrong reasons and nothing good is going to come of this.

God........it's even worse that I thought, and I thought it was bad. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

When you say moves are being made for the wrong reasons is that an opinion or do you have an inside source? I, for one, would be very interested to know. Unfortunately, because of the recent past history with the Browns any scenario short of Jack Bauer shooting Randy Lerner will get a sympathic ear on this board. No matter how absurd. I'd like a little guidance in what to believe and what not to believe. If you can provide that guidance please step forward.

That's funny Attack! <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Peen, I don't see Phil ever getting on the sidelines with any team. I don't think he wants that. In fact, if he did, he could have done it here.

I agree to an extent but if Phil just wants a Coach to be his yes man, clipboard boy then that won't be someone like Cowher. Maybe Martz or Fassell but I'm thinking there is a reason he's soooo interested in the Garrett brothers? If RAC gets the boot then I'd say you'll see one of the Garrett's promoted to HC; assuming that one, the other, and/or both come to the Browns. imo

I just can't see guys like Fisher, Cowher, Mularkey, being a yes man, clipboard coach with little to no input. Maybe Mora Jr. but most likely another guy with no HC experienced but with potential.

[color:"white"]To a point I agree, but sometimes when the job comes calling, you don't........can't.........say no.

Think anyone else had RAC as their #1 guy? He couldn't have said no to us if he wanted to be a head coach. The same probably goes for someone like Mularky.

Now I'd want Cowher here, and I'm all for the idea, but reality is usually something different. I'd bet his terms are that he wants control of the team, which is something he won't get here, thank goodness. When I say someone of his caliber, I'm talking a head coach who's been there and done that, someone that could include a guy like Green or Sherman. Seriously, if I'm talking guys of "that caliber" in the literal sense, how many Super Bowl winning coaches in their prime are gonna be available? *L*

As far as someone like Mularky goes, he's on shaky ground. If we call, we'd make an attractive team. We have huge sums of money, we have talented skill players on offense, he'd get a chance to go up against his old organization, and sadly, he knows RAC is on thin ice, which could lead to an interim job as soon as the middle of next year.

Now after a little thought, I should probably choose better language here. I'm not suggesting that Opie is going to dictate the offense, hehe. I'm saying he'll want to put in a coach who honestly isn't someone that RAC suggested <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I'm sure Opie has an idea of what he wants, and will lean on a new OC to work things in that direction (like, say, not throwing full-back option passes on short yardage <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> ), but will still give him the freedom to do what he wants.

To suggest Opie will be running the offense is some kind of insanity, hehe. [/color]
[/color]

That it does.

You can't really talk draft in terms of needs until FA hits. Once you sign a player or two, needs change.

Think about it....I know you remember.....after we signed shaffer and bentley...people we claiming the line had finally been fixed...and to a degree, it was...for a few weeks anyway.

[color:"white"]Yes they did. It looked that way as well. Who knew that Tucker would start hearing voices, that Coleman was replaced by a talented guy last year with the same name, face, and build, then was swapped back this season without anyone knowing it, and that Shaffer was a right tackle in waiting (well, I knew that one, so sue me *L*).

Right now I want a left tackle, but to repeat myself again, if Opie can fix the line, I'd not mind taking a QB or RB with the 1st pick. Time will tell exactly what I wish for, hehe. [/color]

hey Toad, what do you think about trading the Bucs for the 3rd or 4th pick, and I mean trading so we get the 3rd and 4th pick. If we had that we could draft both Thomas and Russell. (that would be my two choices anyways) Then sign Terdell Sands, Asante Samuel or Nate Clements, Adalius Thomas and Eric Steinbach.and trade for Michael Turner w/ S.D. I know this sounds a bit out there and would be expensive as hell but is it even remotely possible. Or am I <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

The reality of the situation is this.

RAC and PS come in and they blow up the team.

First year is ok, they probably did better than expected.

Second year the expectations were to get to 500.

They meet after the off season, critique coaches and discuss potential changes, RAC stands behind his coaches and no changes are made. The Browns boldly state that continuity is important. I have no idea what happened regarding personnel selection, but I would suggest that this happened as well.

The wheels begin to fall off when Dilfer basically tells RAC / PS that he is not going to play for idiot Mo, and he wants out of Cleveland.

The season begins, and the Browns are no better and probably worse than the year before, even with KW2 back and Braylon with an additional year to learn the playbook. The thing begins to crumble when veteran players begin to complain about Mo and his edict not to adjust to defensive formation.

Mo is let go, and Davidson inserted as a stopgap. Davidson acknowledges that he is running the Giants playbook not the NE playbook.

The team struggles to the end, PS and Lerner are ticked because changes to the offense that could have improved the team, were not implemented and the Browns lost another year. To make matters worse, the Jets, 49ers, and Saints have turnaround years with first or second year head coaches

So this year, PS tells Crennel either to change the coaches or he wont be around, 3 years or not. Crennel has no choice but to accept change.

Like it or not, Crennel himself has stated the reality of the situation. Either he wins or others will be in his place. This is his one shot to fix it and get it right.

Is the organization a mess? Probably so, most 4-12 teams are pretty much a mess after the season. Coaches, players, and front office should be held accountable for their performance. With a 4-12 record, not to many are going to get a good review.

[color:"white"]Impossible, hehe. Gruden is drafting, signing, and coaching for his job this year. He isn't about to trade away the pick for a slew of future ones.

Also, I don't think we want the contracts that go along with the 3rd and 4th picks <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
[color:"white"]
I think .500 was the expectation for the '07 season, not '06. I suppose that I should say "realistic" expectations, that is <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />[color:"white"]
I think you mean Opie told Crennel to accept the changes or he won't be around. RAC probably has very little say in anything when it comes to the staff at this point. [/color]

Realistic or not, I think that the Browns (Lerner) wanted to get to 500 this year.

Most coaches get 3 years to turn the team around (unless you work for Oakland)

Into year 2, RAC has no choice but to change staff with"guidance" from Phil.

Going into this season, the Browns made a big splash with the off-season moves.

Bryant - gone
Frye - starts
Reuban - Contract
Sign Bentley, JJ, Shaffer, Z, Willie, Ted

Did not sign - Brees
Passed on Culpepper
Could not trade for Harrington
Did not sign Kemo...

I wonder what ones were influenced by RAC and if there were any "mulligans" in that mix.

i think one thing everyone has to consider is what does the future hold.....

if rac wins next year he might stick around....if he doesn't then who are savage's likely canidates?

the only thing we have heard is firentz (as he's a buddy of phils) and possibly cowher (this coming from the "we've tried the hot coordinator....and the hot college coach)

now the question is what types of offense and defense to these guys like?

i have no clue about iowa....

but in cowher you have him liking the 3-4 and he already had mularky as an oc in the past...cowher could walk right in except for what you brought up....control....

we've also heard the rumors of phil wanting to deal more with the scouting side of football...

well suppose he does just that and lets cowher have some say...cowher isn't stupid...there is no way he got where he did by ignoring his scouts...which means he wouldn't ignore phil...i would be willing to bet it would be a mutual thing....phil did go the way rac wanted in the draft...(at least for the wimbley pick)


if this situation is the case then you have a coach that comes into a system that has been in place for 3 years on d and 1 year on offense...and just leaves his personal mark on them...i.e. blitzing more with the 3-4 (as cowher would) as aposed to play more conservative....now i don't know if that is totally fair as i think rac would have blitzed more with some healthy corners but you get the picture...

offense is the key to this as the 3-4 is gonna stay.....

i would have to say that phil wants what he had in balt in a solid running game...with a good te...other than that i'm thinking he wants some longer balls to his te and recievers...i honestly can't remember winslow going deep right up the middle of the field....

j/c...

if i'm Savage, and trying to plan for a potential future without RAC, i get a young OC with some potential, but is adaptable enough to run an offense based upon the players Phil brings in...Garrett?...and that's it...

the possible in-house replacaement that could bring some continuity to a RAC firing, IMO, is Grantham...he's young, and has had units that perform at or above their talent level the last 2 seasons...he's gonna get a stab at a HC position w/in the next 5 years anyway, IMO, so if you HAVE to get rid of RAC (meddling Lerner), than Grantham's the guy...the D system stays the same, with Grantham having a major voice in DC choice, and the OC that is hired this year stays...

all that said, it isn't what i hope for, but if RAC is gonna get tossed aside, that's the next best option on how to move forward, IMO...

[color:"white"]Problem with Cowher is that he'll probably want control as well as top dollar. We can give him the cash, as Lerner has shown he's not afraid to open up the checkbook. However, we're not about to yield the power to Cowher.

Unless.............[/color]