DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Separation of Church and State....

Sorry GM, but I have some "words of wisdom" that my Father taught me that may add to your point.


IMO- The message of the Bible and Religion as a whole has not and will not change and has nothing to do with "changing times".

So here is what my Dad had to say about this..................

"Music changes, technology changes, cars change, trends change. But the human mind does not change. Greed, selfishness and self fullfillment are a part of human nature and is somewhere within us all. So the way the human mind actually works, has not changed since the time of Adam and Eve. So the things around you may change, but the way the human mind works, never does."

That is why I believe the "moral compass" and commandments contained in the Bible, are just as relivant today, as the day Moses came down from the mountain with those tablets in his hands.

JMHO

Hey don't be sorry. You dad said it much better than I could

He said it better than I could too.

Why do you think I quote him so much?


He was a very smart man who understood people and our government. He was my best friend. I miss him............

I'll throw this in before I run to work, for those who don't already ignore everything I say.

There are two clauses regarding religion to that first amendment, one is "no law respecting an establishment" and the other is "prohibiting the free exercise thereof." They are at odds with one another, and have been a constant source of controversy for the nation and the supreme court.

The establishment clause means exactly what one poster said, that there can be no state sponsored religion. The free exercise clause means that the gov. can't interfere with individual practicing their religion. The controversy comes when they interesect, i.e., school prayer in a government school. Is having the ten commandments up in a classroom helping to "establish" one religion over another? Is it preventing the free exercise?

It gets complicated, particulary when two sides get extreme, like suspending a kid for wearing a cross or forcing someone to learn passages from the bible.

The most misunderstood part of all this, in my humble opinion, is the "respecting" part. I believe, and this is just my belief, is that no law respecting an establishment of religion means that you can't make a law establishing a particular religion, or a law establishing ALL religions. In other words, the government shouldn't have anything to do whatsoever with religion. That belongs strictly to the province of the people. That's why I'm not crazy about "faith based initiatives." It's getting into muddy water and just asking for trouble. Let government govern, let religion be separate. I really believe it's better for both sides.

good day everyone. I won't be here to rile up any more trouble until late.

summarizing many good points already made, it seems to me that for the Christians that want religion in school, this is a perfect case of 'be careful what you wish for'...

1) infighting amongst denominations
2) critical analysis of scripture
3) "establishment" endorsement of religion

the kids can do whatever they want within reason, but if you want religion into school policy/curriculum, it's gonna cause some serious unintended consequences that i'm not sure the average Christian wants to see...

I hate the founding fathers argument. They also valued African-Americans as 3/5 of an white person. You can't hold them up as the supreme moral authority on these instances unless you accept them all. Our founding fathers were, largely, good people with good intent. However, they could not have envisioned the developments that the country has made and where the world is now. The world is entirely different than when the Constitution was written.

Yep it's different. More murders, more rapes, more people in prison, more crime of all types.

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Yet at my school (a public school) we have religion classes during school hours. Every Wednesday morning we go to Church.

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I can't believe no one picked up on this. I do have similar beliefs as DC on these issues, and still find this troubling. Is your school a normal public school?

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Yep it's different. More murders, more rapes, more people in prison, more crime of all types.

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hmmm...back then, no GM...are you sure that YOU aren't the cause in the increase?...

My town has 3,000 people in it. This is the only school available for anyone who lives here. The school is a normal public school. The tax payers pay for it and every November we vote to give it more money. (My school is horrible in managing money)

Good topic Pete. I am now going to give you and everyone else some "Political and Constitutional Education" that the "Neo-cons" don't want you to know.

lets look at the 1st Amendment-

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

what the 1st amendment means is "that the government will not Force or "create" its own religion or force people to belive in one....no where does it say or have any meaning or anything to do with any school.

As a matter of fact, the court case involving Prayer in school is actually "Unconstitutional" The Constitution does "NOT" give the Supreme Court the "Authority" to decide such a matter.

Find me one place in this Constitution that gives the Federal Government the authority to oversea and hold our school systems accountable for their performance?...you won't find it anywhere, that power is reserved for the states only. The Neo-cons have no respect for the Constitution whatsoever

The Supreme Court was "Wrong" on its decision, the Constitution does not give the Supreme Court the Authority to decide such a matter, just as the Supreme Court doesn't have the authority to decide Ro vs Wade (Abortion) the Constitution doesn't give the Federal Government nor Courts the authority to do so.

who has the authority? lets read the 10th Amendment shall we?

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Since the Constitution does not give the Federal Government the Authority to oversea or hold schools accountable, nor does it give the Supreme Court the authority to decide Abortion....who has this power?

"The States and the People" as well as the local communities and government....these decisions were an "attack" on States and peoples rights!

The Reserved Powers Clause of the Constitutiuon(10th Amendment) gives the "States and the People" the Right to decide such matters as Abortion and Prayer in schools....the U.S Supreme Court overstepped its authority....they overturned State court decisons they had no authority to overturn because the Constitution does not grant the Federal Government these powers, but the Reserved Powers Clause grants the States the authority to decide such matters

I will say it, the Supreme Court is wrong....this is the same Supreme Court that ruled Plessy vs Ferguson(which statedblacks have no rights) and Dred Scott....probably the 2 most corupt court decisions in the history of this country...even Though Bush vs Gore in 2001 is right up there with them.....find me one place in the Constitution that gives the Supreme Court the Authority to decide an election? That states ruled to recount the votes(which was their decision powers under the Reserved Powers Clause) and the Federal government actually trampled again on States rights and the rights of the People

"Under the United States Constitution the federal government has no authority to hold states accountable for their education performance, in the free society envisioned by the founders, schools are held accountable to parents, not federal bureaucrats"- Ron Paul March 23rd, 2001

what this means is if the parents of a community want prayer in their schools, they should be allowed to...they are the ones that pay the property taxes to fund that school, it should be up to the states and the local commmunities and the parents.,.,...not some corupt court decision by the Supreme Court that don't have the Constitutional authority to decide these matters.....things like abortion, prayer in school, etc is "Exactly" Why the Founders put the Reserve Powers Clause in the Constitution.....to protect the people from a oppressive government.....

Also,Racism is another issue that needs to be addressed the Neo-cons love to use this one......as a way to distract just look at the big deal they made about the Obamba campaign....

"Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals. by encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality the advocates of so called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. their obsession with racial group identity is inherently racist. We should understand that racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and begin thinking in terms of individual liberty"- Ron Paul

in closing, The Constituon says prayer in school and things such as abortion are to the states and the people to decide via the Reserved Powers Clause of the 10th Amendment...sadly the Supreme Court and the Neo-Cons throw out the Consitution every chance they get, and now this what you have.....a Welfare State...40% of the working folks support the 60% who don't, they eat better than us....the rich start wars and the poor people fight them

The Founders would be ashamed at what this country has turned into and what we have put up with!

I know.

"Because science has shown it IS a fairy tale, and it's a responsibility for the science teachers in schools to teach what scientists have learned over years of reasearch. It's not like this theory came overnight...there's evidence everywhere supporting it."

Uhhhh, no. Science hasn't shown that it "IS" a fairy tale. In fact, there are MANY scientists that believe exactly the opposite. You might want to research a little more before throwing out what those that BELIEVE in evolution has said and take it as fact. The simple truth is that BOTH are theories. Take some time and just google and you'll find out that Science hasn't proven what you state.

Here are a few links....the first I put because of the $250,000.00 challenge that no one has collected on.

http://www.truenews.org/creation/creation.html

http://www.southasianconnection.com/arti...-One/Page1.html

http://www.etcsa.org/GJackson/PtsOfOrigin20010303.html

http://media.www.lsureveille.com/media/s...pports.Creation

http://www.icr.org/article/275/

Those are just a handful of links. There are plenty more.

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WHO ASK YOU *&*%#*&^*&(*%#$&^

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Someone, Quick,, Pull GM's finger,, he's in need of a release

I grew up in the suburbs, so this just baffles me. I am suprised that our kids were able to sing Christmas songs at our Christmas concert. That's a far cry from taking them to church.

I also have a problem with the suggestion of having theBible taught as an elective in school. The reason is not that I don't think a theology type class is wrong, but rather the problems it would cause is far as the way it would be taught and interpreted. Christians I know can't seem to agree on a lot, and it would cause a big commotion in my mind.

B and AMMO...

you are both wrong...and it's off-topic...start a thread, and i'll explain your error in details...

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and it's off-topic

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I didn't think there was such a thing in the tailgate lot.

Please show me where Creation states those things happened. Once again, you deflect from the topic in an attempt to derail it.

The notion of Creation is rooted in the Bible, is it not?

Excl provided the answer. I'm sure you'll find something else to change the subject to.

He can't, because to seperate the two would be to look at ALL the scientific evidence and not allow him to deflect from the conversation.

First , IF I am correct religious groups can meet on school property , but Not during school hours , as long as ALL religions are granted equal access....I agree that it is wrong to suspend a student for use a religious symbol in their artwork , because that is their free expression which is Not being imposed on others....The same applies to a student saying grace , as long as they do not force or encourage others to also say grace a suspension is unwarranted....As far as schools are concerned , they as always fear being sued and a religious conflict of interest is just another way that they might be sued....IMHO , what has been lost or ignored in schools in recent years is that America is and probably will always be a religious nation....The Founding Father wanted to ensure that individuals had the right to worship as they wish without governmental influence or interference....Back to the movie....In football for years teams have kneeled and bowed their heads in a free expression of religion , without puting one religion over another both before and after games and personally I have no problem with that whatsoever....As for people knocking on my door early on Saturday & Sunday mornings , that really irritates be....Recently I decided to invite them in....I said you want to hand out material and preach to me ?.... Fine , you go first , after about 20 minutes , I said OK , it's my turn....45 minutes later , after I disussed my own views with them and quoted some material of my own they couldn't wait to leave....I haven't seen them since ....The moral of that exchange....Do unto others as they do unto you.....Now I can sleep on the weekends....

Don't you think somebody who new the intent of the law, or knew those who wrote the law would have challanged it if it was wrong, instead of waiting years, and years, and years till those who wrote it (and supported it) were dead and gone before they tried to change it to suit themselves?

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As for a commandment that's out of date? "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife." It's obviously morally questionable if not deplorable, but if two people find themselves in love...why not? There's too many shades of grey to say it's right or wrong.

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Two people don't just "find themselves in love"... unless they put themselves in a position for that to happen. If you're married or if the person you are around is married, don't put yourself in that position. There are no shades of gray unless you put them there.

There was a story a few years back about a guy in the Air Force, don't remember his religion off the top of my head, but he was given the assignment to sit in a nuclear missile silo with his finger on the button. This is a two person job as I understand it because of the checks and balances, the person who was supposed to sit down there with him was a woman. The two go down into this bunker and they eat sleep and live down there for days at a time. He was married and essentially refused to go. Why? The temptation of being alone in a closed environment like that for days at a time and he feared he could not resist the temptation. People at the time made fun of him for being a prude, I say he was responsible and had a firmer grasp of human nature than most people.

This thread embodies why there should be a definitive and well guarded separation. Ten commandment statues at court houses and school prayer are like gateway drugs for religion. By themselves they look innocuous, even ridiculous to come down so hard against. But the history of mankind shows over and over and over and over and over and over what happens when previously well meaning faithful types gradually accumulate intoxicating levels of influence within government and society. And religion is historically horribly addicted to government.

Pain has no memory. We forget easily and Americans in particular love to forget history. But that doesn't mean it's now ok to hand your previously crack addicted brother who's been off the stuff for a few years a six pack of light beer.