|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,283
Dawg Talker
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,283 |
Quote:
I know you can't stand facts and truth, so that doesn't bother me. He was already placed on ignore because of the things he said in another post and was told as much. It is none of your concern. Oh, and the more you "can't stand" what I have to say, the more right I know I am. 
Whatever dude!
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
|
|
Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
You haven't explained how a lower inflation rate doesn't help everyone, no matter how much money the do or don't have. Even if you are struggling, if inflation is lowered, it helps you because what little money you have goes further. Therefore, his economics plan DID help everyone. Maybe not as much as they wanted, but it DID help them.
Let me give you an example. If you are struggling and making $300 a week and the cost of gas (as an example) is $4.00 a gallon. Someone puts a plan into affect that lowers the cost of gas to $3.50 a gallon, how do you not benefit from that?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
|
|
Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
Jay, I hope you know that I respect your opinioins so that is why I'm asking some questions of about your post. First, unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you, as Peen posted something about wanting to be like everyone else and ndutyme said he disagreed with it.
You said something about the residual effect of slavery. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but the question I have is how long do you think it takes to overcome that disadvantage you are referring to? I am well aware that the situation was dire just a short while ago (historically speaking). However, I think things have improved vastly, though there is still a long way to go to get to total racial harmony.....if it we can ever get to that place.
At what point do you think this can happen and what has to take place on both sides for it to occur?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 504
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 504 |
Because that's a minimal benefit when you don't have money to begin with. Instead of being able to buy a 1/2 gallon of milk, now you can buy 3 gallons of milk...big benefit......
If you don't have money to begin with, lowering the inflation rate isn't a big enough benefit to matter. People are poor not because they don't have money, it's because they are in debt. A lower inflation rate doesn't THAT much. Did people benefit - of course - but those who needed the help didn't get as much of the benefit.
The middle class who were in debt benefited horizontally, not vertically. They had minimal benefit, but not enough to even matter. And those who were just poor because of a lack of money... well you know there lives weren't improved.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
|
|
Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
Thank you. That was my point. It may not been enough in some people's eyes, but it DID benefit them. That was said to be wrong.
I would think when you only have a half gallon of milk, 3 gallons would be a pretty good improvement. It's not like you can afford to buy the dairy, but it's better than doing without that other 2 1/2 gallons.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,283
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,283 |
Quote:
Jay, I hope you know that I respect your opinioins so that is why I'm asking some questions of about your post. First, unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you, as Peen posted something about wanting to be like everyone else and ndutyme said he disagreed with it.
You said something about the residual effect of slavery. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but the question I have is how long do you think it takes to overcome that disadvantage you are referring to? I am well aware that the situation was dire just a short while ago (historically speaking). However, I think things have improved vastly, though there is still a long way to go to get to total racial harmony.....if it we can ever get to that place.
At what point do you think this can happen and what has to take place on both sides for it to occur?
We're talking generations of poverty. No inheritance, no wealth. Do you really believe that can be overcome in 40 years, when it was in place for 400?
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 504
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 504 |
That's probably not the best example, but the benefits were so minimal for the lowest on the totem pole that they were in reality not better off. They weren't able to pay their bills any more than they were before. When things aren't getting better, they're getting worse and it did for a long time.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
This may be towards your your quote but it is somewhat of a general reply.... Quote:
Sure slavery is over, but the residual effects didn’t stop when Slavery was outlawed. To claim otherwise is asinine. If you and I sat out to run the Boston Marathon and I held you back for 45 minutes. It would be foolish of me to tell you once you started running that the 45 minute period is over so it doesn’t matter to where we are in the Marathon.
No but the real man would have kept his trap shut about it and beat you any way. And if he didn't, he would have still kept his trap shut and worked his butt off harder and beat you the next year. If not then, he would then have his son beat you the next year while you were busy holding him back.....Many great men and women have succeeded under worse circumstances...
Carl Brashear, George Washington Carver, The Tuskegee Airmen, Martin Luther King, Thurgood Marshall, and many, many, many others....have come from nothing...some were slaves themselves and yet they OVERCAME. They SUCCEEDED. They didn't use Slavery, racism, and bigotry from others as a crutch. They took on the responsibility of the outcome of their successes or failures upon themselves. They said "I am going to determine my outcome....not anyone else." You think you are facing racism now????? I believe it would be safe to say that you don't have an INKLING of what racism is compared to those listed above.
Now before it is even assumed....I am not saying shut up and don't talk about racism. There HAS to be a dialogue on racism. But the point that has gone fluttering by is that the discussion to this point has been one sided. The discussion to this point has been all about whites taking responsibility for things. And there has been a lot of progress in that avenue. There is still progress to be made there. But where is the discussion about the blacks taking responsibility for things???
Immigrants come to this country with less than nothing and within a generation or 2 they are showing successes. We have examples of former slaves becoming successes within their lifetimes. We have stories of people who accomplish the American Dream through Intense Hard Work and Sacrifice.....but we are to be told that African Americans as a race are being held back because of their race???? Is that what is being said????
So again I am NOT saying Shut up about Racism.....I am saying Lets Talk About Racism in the Context of Racism....and Shut Up about Racism as a Crutch and Lets Take Responsibility for Our Own Successes and Failures(that goes for whites and reverse discrimination as well)
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,104
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,104 |
Today we had a sub in our foreign policy class. It was basically a review day so when we finished we still had about 45 minutes left. She actually brought up this article, read it, and in that 45 minutes they were still going at it.
Of course in my class you have the few hardcore liberals (who said it was racist) and a few hardcore christian conservatives (who said he was right). About four people did most the arguing, but they were either completely for or against. I tried to be one of the few in the middle to voice an opinion but had little luck with that over thier whining (and yes thats what t basically turned to)
As far as I see it, he makes a few points, but some points are borderline ludacris.
A good pont made by the liberal: Blacks in america struggle because there is still racism out there. Not near as much as there was but it still exists. While most white americans immigrated here with some belongings and a chance to start a new life, blacks were brought here with nothing. A new language and religion forced upon them. Their culture shunned. And while white settlers had been living freely since the 1600's, blacks were not free until the 1860's, and even then they had almost nothing. Whites had a 200 year head start with possessions while blacks were basically given freedom with nothing to fend for themselves. That is why the majority of poverty is black.
Good point made by the right wing marine: So you are saying the answer to racism is reverse racism? I didn't grow up in a wealthy family by any means. I worked all through high school to pay my own way and still didn't have enough. I joined the marines to help pay for schooling. I got decent grades, but some schools rejected my application in favor of minorities. I probably came from a poorer background and had better grades than some of the people who got in ahead of me simply because of the color of their skin. How is that not racist. And you also make the point, slavery is the cause of this problem. Yet its been almost 150 years since slavery ended, how long will you use that as an excuse? In another 100 years if things still haven't improved you will still say slavery when in reality for many its laziness. In reality, most people on welfare live off welfare not because they want to but because they can. They could go out and get a job and make more money than they'd get from welfare, but of course that means they have to work and they'd lose the welfare. Why work when you get a fre check. Welfare is meant to help people get out of the poverty level by assissting them until they can find work and support themselves, but it'll never work wehn peope aren't looking for jobs.
IMO, America is inperfect. We are still paying for the sins of our fathers. African Americans are at a disadvantage because of our ancestors. But to counterpoint, a lot of people, black and white, are not helping the situation. Many government programs are out there to aid in these relief measures, some revert to a form of reverse racism, but do it to aid those less fortunate.
The way out of this is through educating yourself, living a better life, and escaping the life of poverty. People help themselves so much even with a high school education, but the dropout rate is frightening. Add the crime rate to that and influence from the media (rap culture) and it seems that this viscious cycle may never end.
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 97
Practice Squad
|
|
Practice Squad
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 97 |
Coach-
As far as how long it would take to get passed the residual effects. The simple answer is it probably varies. Some are more effected and some are less. Dont get me wrong im not saying i accept that excuse as being ok. But my point was the people who say slavery ended a long time ago so it should never be brought up. The end of slavery didnt equality or else there would've been no need for the Civil Rights movement etc... That's what i was trying to get across.
As far as what i think has to happen. Well someone had a great point in a forum (maybe this one) a while ago. The point was we as HUMANS have to get to the point where skin color is of no more importance than eye or hair color. I personally dont think that can/will ever happen short of divine intervention. Hopefully it continues to improve though.
Pete-
You're right there are many men and women who rose above their "situations" and did many great things. Im not implying that people should use racism as a crutch. Im saying that as much as some may want to erase slavery from history (IOW pretend it didnt happen) its a part of the history of this country. It happened and if we're going to have discussions then we need to discuss it ALL. For every black who wants to use it as a crutch theirs likely a white who wants to pretend that since it was so long ago it means nothing today. Both of those thought processes are wrong and neither one of them will result in a successful dialogue.
I hate both extremes in the discussion on race. Those who want to blame primarily/only "the man"for the plight of the black man and those who want to blame primarily/only blacks for the plight of the black man. IMO the answer is somewhere in between.
![[Linked Image from i3.photobucket.com]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/lazeone11/ClevelandTowerCityjayem-1.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,098
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,098 |
j/c
Judging from the length of this thread, and the ferocity with which it's contributors are expressing themselves....
...I'd say that both Barak Obama and Pat Robertson have been granted their wishes. To my eyes, this seems to be an open and honest dialogue/discussion.
...and yet- nothing's been changed.
Noone's moved from their original p.o.v.
The arguing continues.
Everyone's right.
Everyone's wrong.
And nobody's really listening.
sad.
prediction: this issue will NEVER be solved... because ALL Human Beings are flawed versions of the God who created us... despite our individual ethnicity.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,098
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,098 |
Pink Floyd: The Dark Side of the Moon/ "Us & Them":
"Us And Them"
Us and Them
And after all we're only ordinary men
Me, and you
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do
Forward he cried from the rear
and the front rank died
And the General sat, as the lines on the map
moved from side to side
Black and Blue
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up and Down
And in the end it's only round and round and round
Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
the poster bearer cried
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside
Down and Out
It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about
With, without
And who'll deny that's what the fightings all about
Get out of the way, it's a busy day
And I've got things on my mind
For want of the price of tea and a slice
The old man died
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Clinton's economic boom was brought on by the .com explosions. They also had a huge downfall as well.
I agree.
Quote:
Reagan's trickle down economics that you said were "bunk" increased the GNP, lowered inflation by a drastic amount, and lowered unemploymentl. I never gave complete credit to Reagan in my post, I said "under his administration", just to be clear.
I disagree.
I think a big factor that helped Reagan - much like the .com boom helped Clinton - was that the young and mid-career professionals during his time had gained a GIANT leg up from their parents and grandparents. An astronomical leap that had been unseen not only in our nation's history, but in the history of man...I think Reagan rode a lot of that wave.
Also, I think it's worth mentioning that nearly every aspect of economics went through high highs and low lows because of Reagan...very volatile, and again I don't think that completely was or wasn't his doing.
I personally think that while the president can have a drastic impact on the economy, more often than not it's a roller coaster ride you can't control.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
Quote:
For every black who wants to use it as a crutch theirs likely a white who wants to pretend that since it was so long ago it means nothing today. Both of those thought processes are wrong and neither one of them will result in a successful dialogue.
I agree fully.....very well said.....
Quote:
Im not implying that people should use racism as a crutch.
I am sorry if I gave the impression that you were. I simply wanted to make a point that many do(on both sides).
Quote:
The point was we as HUMANS have to get to the point where skin color is of no more importance than eye or hair color.
Don't get me started on those Blue Eyed devils  
Seriously tho...I think it is possible....but it is going to take a lot of time for that to happen. Is it going to happen in our lifetimes????...probably not. Does that make the goal any less worth striving for????.....in my eyes it makes it worth more to strive for...if for anything but to prove that we could do it......
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,363
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,363 |
Quote:
The point was we as HUMANS have to get to the point where skin color is of no more importance than eye or hair color.
I have been preaching that for years. 
Quote:
I personally dont think that can/will ever happen short of divine intervention. Hopefully it continues to improve though.
I can't see how that has already not happened in the majority of the people in this country. Has it happened with everybody...... NOPE, will it continue to happen with more and more people of both colors.... YEP Can it happen fast enough.... nope.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
|
|
Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
Jay, great post. That's why I asked for yur opinion. I agre with what you've said. I also think that both sides need to change their thinking. SOME people use slavery as an excuse for everything. SOME people then dismiss the issue out of hand and cause them to say it shouldn't be brought up.
I also agree that it would take divine intervention to rid EVERYONE of worrying about color instead of looking at the human. I just hope things continue to improve so that the coming generations can get closer and closer to that on both sides of the coin.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,683
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,683 |
A few points
1) I cannot agree with the point that the black community was somehow blessed with being forced into slavery.
2) We can argue all we wish about the inequities, the reality is that the black community remains hamstrung by the past. They started out as a second class and have never caught up. Remember the whole segregation issue was focused at the black community.
3) The social and economic programs are available to anyone that qualifies. This is not a black/white issue, it is a poor/wealthy issue. I qualified as a youth for college grants and loans. It was the best investment of government money that may have occurred.
4) One of the items that will continue to challenge this country is the concept of entitlment, or retribution. I have little regard for those who live in the past. One of the most important items that has occurred over the past 20 years is that our children have been taught to treat those of other races as being equal. Yet, elders continue to bring up the inequities of the past as the basis for discussion. People like Sharpton, Robertson and Wright are a prime example as to why generations will have to pass in order for progress to be made.
5) Culturally, there is work to be done. Any community that has little exposure to another (black, white, hispanic, asian, or ethnic) will have distrust of something that they do not understand until they are taught differently. Years ago, it was not white/black it was Irish, Italian, Greek, Polish, Slovac etc, that were the targets of racism. That has passed, but now the focus is different.
6) Crime is a big problem that is associated with the black community. Robertson is well aware that there are hundereds of examples of prisoners being released as a result of DNA testing.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,747
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,747 |
Quote:
I also agree that it would take divine intervention to rid EVERYONE of worrying about color instead of looking at the human.
That is another problem. The issue really isn't color. The issue really is how a group of people acts and lives within society. Whether it be Blacks, Whites, Asians etc etc.
If all groups would...
1. Be civilized.
2. Realize that they are not the only group and of those groups they are no more
important than another.
3. Not expect different treatment from other groups but rather expect a person
from one group to be treated no different from another group.
4. Each person do the best that they can in all aspects of their life.
There would be no problem.
But in order to reach that point each race has to give the other races a clean slate, otherwise there will be continued stereotyping for past transgressions.
And each group must be placed legally on the same playing field. For example, grants and scholarships should go to the more scholastic deserving regardless of race. Jobs go to the most qualified, regardless of race. Otherwise what is the driving factor to better yourself?
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.) ![[Linked Image from i87.photobucket.com]](http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k155/brownsfan4173/NFL-Football.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,363
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,363 |
Quote:
If all groups would...
Realize they all belong to the same group. Plain old Americans.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,013
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,013 |
JAY... Quote:
The point was we as HUMANS have to get to the point where skin color is of no more importance than eye or hair color.
that's not gonna happen until it's an appropriate analogy...there is no blue-eyed or black-haired culture...as soon as skin color becomes incidental to cultural and socio-economic factors, then we can ignore it...but that's not now, and it's not anytime soon, as i see it...
COACH...
i see that you continue to recite economic indicators in the Reagan argument...i can't say much about him specifically, b/c i was 2 when he was first elected, but the point of NDUTY and others seems to fly right over those indicators...if a president's policies have hurt me and those i know, should i like him b/c of some random #?...
you're arguing that these numbers are the end all, but all they really argue is that Americans as a whole were helped more than they were hurt...and that's not even necessarily true on an individual basis, although it could be...i mean indicators will go up in a room of 10 people if the rich 1 gets a 5-fold increase in their income while the 3 middle-class ones get a 10% increase and the 6 poor ones decrease 2-fold...then ask those 6 people how they feel about the indicators...as i said, i'm not suggesting that was the case, rather i'm simply pointing out that population-based #'s can be totally meaningless to individuals...
Browns fans are born with it...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,283
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,283 |
Quote:
i'm not suggesting that was the case, rather i'm simply pointing out that population-based #'s can be totally meaningless to individuals...
Which is why so many black people did not like Reagan.
Throw in the war on drugs, which seemed specifically targeted to urban areas and not the transport of drugs in and out of this country, where the fight should've been fought. Cut of the head and the body dies...instead, they're approach was cut of the fingers and hope they bleed to death....WRONG! Also, a new product was introduced which changed the black community in ways that segregation and slavery never have...CRACK!
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,102
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,102 |
I don't see Buchanan's words as racist. I believe their point is simply that for 40 years or more years America have been spoon fed the rhetoric of excuses being made for African-Americans without hearing opposing view. Pat's words are directed towards those that accept and give excuses for failure.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,683
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,683 |
Quote:
But in order to reach that point each race has to give the other races a clean slate, otherwise there will be continued stereotyping for past transgressions.
And each group must be placed legally on the same playing field. For example, grants and scholarships should go to the more scholastic deserving regardless of race. Jobs go to the most qualified, regardless of race. Otherwise what is the driving factor to better yourself?
Ideally I agree, practically we are not there yet.
The playing field is not level from a cultrual perspective. The final selection at the finish line include those who have had to travel a longer distance.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,211
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,211 |
Quote:
I think this was before the media turned the country against him.
The media isn't the one who "turned" anybody. It was the falsehhods, arrogance, superiority complex and smugness that has turned off America to GWB. It wasn't the "media" that started a war based on falsehoods. It was GWB.
Do you really believe that or did you just convince yourself of it?
Do you have the rest of your stand up comedy routine ready for the night club circuit yet?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,211
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,211 |
Crosby Stills Nash Night Time for the Generals
Well it's nighttime and the long cars
Are arriving at the door,
The general is having another party,
With a congressman or three
And some guys you never see outside the bank.
There's a laughing clink of glasses
And a polished click of boots
And bitter talk of a country
With a weakness in its roots.
And it's nighttime for the generals
And the boys at the C.I.A.
Power gone mad in the darkness
Thinking they're God on a good day
They giveth, they taketh
But they like to take it away.
Well the fools don't know the difference
It's for their own good, they said.
And they shot blind Lady Liberty
In the back of her head.
And it's nighttime for the generals
And the boys at the C.I.A.
Power gone mad in the darkness
Thinking they're God on a good day
They giveth, they taketh
But they like to take it away.
They giveth, they taketh,
Nighttime, nighttime, nighttime.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,102
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,102 |
Your comments sums it up for my turning against Bush. It was his flip-flop on his expression in the 2000 debates about being careful about nation building that turned me against him. When he had his first broadcast to discuss going to war with Iraq, I was expecting what I saw with the Cuban missile crisis. But there was no smoking gun, all I heard was fear.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,013
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,013 |
RECKON... Quote:
When he had his first broadcast to discuss going to war with Iraq, I was expecting what I saw with the Cuban missile crisis. But there was no smoking gun, all I heard was fear.
you know, i just watched the movie "13 days" the other day...i haven't traditionally been interested in history, so i don't know the true story...i.e. i know it's a movie, with all of the Hollywood-made inaccuracies...but if even 1/2 of the things are true about JFK and his inner circle going out of their way to avoid war while military leaders were pushing for war, it is amazing...
it renewed my disdain for Bush and his gullibility as he went right along with his warmongering administration...
Browns fans are born with it...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
Well you got one thing right...you don't know your history.....
First of all who was it that you think got us into Vietnam in the first place(not that I disagree with his decision to dso so) It was Kennedy. Bay of Pigs.....Kennedy
Don't confuse Kennedy's lack of willingness to lead us into nuclear War with him being someone who would not send men into battle at any cost.
The other thing you have to remember is that LeMay....that was the firebrand jerk of an Air Force General.....came from the Massive Air Bombing Campaigns of World War II. And he may have been more personably responsible for the victory in the Pacific than any singular man. He was told to win "at all costs". And that was how he fought war. His incindiary bombing raids on mainland Japan killed far more Japanese than the 2 nuclear bombs combined. It was his stalwart belief that the way you save the most lives is to end the war as quickly and decisively as possible. There is some truth to that.....And frankly that led to a more extreme view and possibly a quicker trigger finger.
The man, as much of an ass as he could be, did great things for this country. That doesn't excuse him for almost driving us into war with the Soviets.....But what it does do is help provide a different perspective of where he was coming from and why he was insistent that we might have to head in that direction. Lucky for all of us Cooler heads prevailed.
This was also a huge lesson in how communication or lack there of affects decsion making. There was lack of communication between the Super Powers, There was lack of communication within the both cabinets. Heck Kennedy didn't trust his military and his military didn't trust him.....So the communication lines there were not very good....
Oh...just FYI....the writer of the book the movie is based off of was written by Kevin Costner's character......and his part is a little over played from what I have read.....LOL But it is a great movie anyways
But your "warmongering" comment is just more illinformed propagandist crap and has nothing to do with the topic at hand....
Not necessarily that the Cuban Missile Crisis did either....but you were at least civil when speaking of that topic.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 97
Practice Squad
|
|
Practice Squad
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 97 |
Quote:
JAY...
Quote:
The point was we as HUMANS have to get to the point where skin color is of no more importance than eye or hair color.
that's not gonna happen until it's an appropriate analogy...there is no blue-eyed or black-haired culture...as soon as skin color becomes incidental to cultural and socio-economic factors, then we can ignore it...but that's not now, and it's not anytime soon, as i see it...
^IOW lets hang on to this "arbitray" dividing line and all the angst that comes with it. *****Newsflash....thats not working!!!!!*****
Your post only proves my point in that it wont happen without some help from above. Why? Because people are hung up on skin color. The only reason there is "black culture" and "white culture" is because that is/was the dividing line people use(d). It could've just as easily been blondes vs brunettes, dark eyes vs light eyes. Ask yourself this what makes skin color more important than eye/hair color?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is there rascism today? Yes. Without a doubt. Problem is, it's mostly blacks that are rascist, though saying that will somehow paint me as a rascist........funny how speaking the truth can turn you into a rasicst..........funny, and pathetic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You cant be serious! There’s no way you’re going to just throw that claim out there without being called on it. Please by all means back up that claim.
No - you are correct - I can't back that up. However, in my "rant", I was speaking about people that hold rascism up as an excuse.........and in that sense, I do feel I am correct. However, the statement you referred to, when looked at by itself, is wrong.
Look, rascism exists, we all know that. It does go both ways.
My problem is people that blame slavery for their current situation. Doing that is just an excuse in my opinion.
Too many blacks have done and are doing so well........the opportunities are there. So one company doesn't hire you? Go to another. I've had to do it.
The bottom line is do YOU (not you personally) want to improve yourself, and WILL YOU DO WHAT IT TAKES to improve yourself. People that live in the "hood", people of any race, that want to take that hood mentality with them into the workforce are just not going to make it. (blacks are associated with urban ghettos, whites are associated with "trailer trash", etc etc for each ethnic group)
I see no reason to pander to any of the groups. It is up to them to make their lives better, and the killer thing is, they CAN in this country. Anyone and everyone CAN improve themselves and their live......IF THEY REALLY WANT TO, by doing what it takes.
Hope that makes more sense.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,253
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,253 |
Quote:
Quote:
I think this was before the media turned the country against him.
The media isn't the one who "turned" anybody. It was the falsehhods, arrogance, superiority complex and smugness that has turned off America to GWB. It wasn't the "media" that started a war based on falsehoods. It was GWB.
Do you really believe that or did you just convince yourself of it?
Do you have the rest of your stand up comedy routine ready for the night club circuit yet?
I guess you disagree that the media is overwhelmingly liberal huh Pit?As for Bush lying, didn't everybody think wmd's were in I raq? The only proven Pres liar that I can remember is Clinton. And as for President Bush
s arrogance and smugness? Are you talking about how he didn't bend over for the French and kicked some terrorist ass?
When Obama is Prez we can run and hide, start kissing butt again and blaming ourselves for making the terrorists attack us.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
|
|
Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
Pit had to admit a little while back that he couldn't prove that Bush lied. Now he is back to the same old crap. Not surprising really.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
And as for President Bush's arrogance and smugness? Are you talking about how he didn't bend over for the French and kicked some terrorist ass?
Did you mean to say 'kissed'?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349 |
Quote:
Quote:
And as for President Bush's arrogance and smugness? Are you talking about how he didn't bend over for the French and kicked some terrorist ass?
Did you mean to say 'kissed'?
Now thats funny
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,363
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,363 |
Quote:
Quote:
JAY...
Quote:
The point was we as HUMANS have to get to the point where skin color is of no more importance than eye or hair color.
that's not gonna happen until it's an appropriate analogy...there is no blue-eyed or black-haired culture...as soon as skin color becomes incidental to cultural and socio-economic factors, then we can ignore it...but that's not now, and it's not anytime soon, as i see it...
^IOW lets hang on to this "arbitray" dividing line and all the angst that comes with it. *****Newsflash....thats not working!!!!!*****
Your post only proves my point in that it wont happen without some help from above. Why? Because people are hung up on skin color. The only reason there is "black culture" and "white culture" is because that is/was the dividing line people use(d). It could've just as easily been blondes vs brunettes, dark eyes vs light eyes. Ask yourself this what makes skin color more important than eye/hair color?
DAMN man the more you post, the more I want to invite you and your family to dinner 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,098
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,098 |
j/c:
I'm gonna take this thread back on-topic for just a minute.
The title was: Is Buchanan right... or Racist?" Then, the post quoted a Buchanan editorial, in which he basically said, "I would willingly engage in a discussion, but I'm not willing to be lectured to."
Fine. No problem with that initial assertion at all. But Pat dropped the ball, in my opinion.
If he was truly sincere about this premise of his, he would have handled this Op-Ed opportunity in a very different way. He would have called Barak Obama out, for an open Town Hall forum regarding this perennially incendiary issue. Had he done that, BOTH sides would have been to sit down, and have the very talk he claims to want.
He did not do so. Instead, he added his own rhetoric to the din of crap that pervades the airwaves, print media, and internet dross that we've already seen too much of. He used his opportunity to spout his "Angry White Man" agenda, and did absolutely nothing to push forward the discourse that could truly lead to understanding and reconciliation.
Truth be told- I don't think reconciliation and understanding were ever part of his agenda... because I've read enough of his output to know where he's coming from. I haven't been impressed with him in over 25 years for this very reason. In my mind, he's NO DIFFERENT from Jesse and Sharpie, whom he vilifies as often as possible. Pot- meet kettle.
If he had invited Barak Obama or any other civic leader to a sit-down on national TV, so the entire country could hear the discourse and make up their own minds.... now THAT would have impressed me.
I suspect that he's unwilling to do so, because on the level playing field of moderated debate, his ass would be handed to him on a silver platter. Not because he's necessarily wrong, but because he's not necessarily right, either- and he knows it.
Instead, he's now on to the next OpEd diatribe, while the details are being hashed out between fans of a football team on a public bulletin board. To be honest, EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU POSTERS, whether I agree with your views or not, has shown more integrity, courage and honesty than Patrick Buchanan has. He's a huckster, a rabble-rouser and con man... just like his ideological nemeses.
Al Sharpton/Patrick Buchanan.... same horses of different colors. Ride'em ifyawanna, but I promise you- you won't like the barn they carry you to. And you have to spend the night smelling each one's personal brand of "what all horses asses produce."
Bank on it.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
Quote:
Quote:
Jay, I hope you know that I respect your opinioins so that is why I'm asking some questions of about your post. First, unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you, as Peen posted something about wanting to be like everyone else and ndutyme said he disagreed with it.
You said something about the residual effect of slavery. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but the question I have is how long do you think it takes to overcome that disadvantage you are referring to? I am well aware that the situation was dire just a short while ago (historically speaking). However, I think things have improved vastly, though there is still a long way to go to get to total racial harmony.....if it we can ever get to that place.
At what point do you think this can happen and what has to take place on both sides for it to occur?
We're talking generations of poverty. No inheritance, no wealth. Do you really believe that can be overcome in 40 years, when it was in place for 400?
You are ASSuming all white people are and were wealthy for those 400 years. In fact nothing can be more removed from the truth. This country was not affluent until the 1950s. That's about the 40 years you are mentioning,right? I'm still waiting for my 400 years worth of inheritance. What a load of manure you spew................ 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,013
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,013 |
PETE... honestly, after reading your post, i'm not sure i see any disagreement with the missile crisis... Quote:
Don't confuse Kennedy's lack of willingness to lead us into nuclear War with him being someone who would not send men into battle at any cost.
i said that Kennedy worked very hard to avoid nuclear war during the missile crisis...you agreed...i never mentioned that Kennedy was unwilling to send troops anywhere, so i'm not sure where you got that...
you go on to explain the reasoning behind military leaders pushing for escalation...i'll trust you for now, and i never tried to imply that they were promoting war for the sake of seeing a big explosion...they had their reasons based on their personal experience, and that's fine...it doesn't change the fact, which you verify, that they were pushing for escalation...you're trying to create disagreement where there is none...
Quote:
But your "warmongering" comment is just more illinformed propagandist crap and has nothing to do with the topic at hand....
i don't need to rely on history here...i witnessed the words and actions of Cheney, Rumsfield, and Wolfowitz, and am confident that warmongering is an appropriate term for it...to suggest that is just me regurgitating propaganda basically ignores the reality of the last 8 years...if you do not see it, fine, but as far as i'm concerned, that's a you problem...
the whole point, which you won't ever agree with, i suppose, is that Bush did not show the intelligence or strength under internal pressure that Kennedy was portrayed as showing...as you and i agreed, the Kennedy thing was likely exaggerated, but Bush's behavior wasn't in a movie...his incompetence was very real...
Browns fans are born with it...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,013
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,013 |
JAY... what does ^IOW mean?... anyway... Quote:
The only reason there is "black culture" and "white culture" is because that is/was the dividing line people use(d). It could've just as easily been blondes vs brunettes, dark eyes vs light eyes. Ask yourself this what makes skin color more important than eye/hair color?
you are supporting my point, as i see it...there is little that makes skin color more important than hair/eye color...(there ARE more significant genetic differences between races than between hair/eye color groupings, but that's irrelevent outside of the medical arena)...it's not the trait itself...it's the historical basis of how that trait has been grouped separately and treated differently...
you said it yourself..."that is/was the dividing line people use(d)"...well, that dividing line was made in an arbitrary fashion, but it evolved into a systemic socioeconomic disparity...
*White households had incomes that were two-thirds higher than those of African Americans and 40 percent higher than those of Hispanics last year[2005], according to data released yesterday by the Census Bureau.
*Thirty percent of white adults had at least a bachelor's degree in 2005, while 17 percent of black adults and 12 percent of Hispanic adults had degrees.
*The median income for white households was $50,622 last year. It was $30,939 for black households, $36,278 for Hispanic households and $60,367 for Asian households
*Three-fourths of white households owned their homes in 2005, compared with 46 percent of black households and 48 percent of Hispanic households.
link
i don't see how ignoring these facts helps the situation...
Browns fans are born with it...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,283
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,283 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Jay, I hope you know that I respect your opinioins so that is why I'm asking some questions of about your post. First, unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you, as Peen posted something about wanting to be like everyone else and ndutyme said he disagreed with it.
You said something about the residual effect of slavery. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but the question I have is how long do you think it takes to overcome that disadvantage you are referring to? I am well aware that the situation was dire just a short while ago (historically speaking). However, I think things have improved vastly, though there is still a long way to go to get to total racial harmony.....if it we can ever get to that place.
At what point do you think this can happen and what has to take place on both sides for it to occur?
We're talking generations of poverty. No inheritance, no wealth. Do you really believe that can be overcome in 40 years, when it was in place for 400?
You are ASSuming all white people are and were wealthy for those 400 years. In fact nothing can be more removed from the truth. This country was not affluent until the 1950s. That's about the 40 years you are mentioning,right? I'm still waiting for my 400 years worth of inheritance. What a load of manure you spew................
And where were we in the 1950's?
So please, spare me. Simple fact is, slave owners made money off of free labor. Did all white people own slaves, no, so I'm not assuming that all white people got rich. However, VERY FEW black people made any money at all, for 400 years. In that time, there were PLENTY of white families that accrued a great deal of wealth. If you want to deny that, then you're delusional. So check the manure coming from your end.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Is Buchanan right.... or Racist?
|
|
