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RACER... in your example, i can point out the problem that i believe AA is meant to address...(ignoring that you've said they are to hire a majority of blacks, which is not mandated)... Quote:
but look at it this way....you are a white male taking the cleveland firefighters exam....they are hiring 100 firefighters...
2000 people test....and you finish 81st....so you think barring any phycological problems you got the job....but then you find out the city has to hire based on race makeup of the city....
so they have to hire (and these are just guesses to prove my point) 40 whites and 60 blacks....
so in looking at the list there are 60 whites and 40 blacks in the top 100....20 whites will be passed over to hire blacks that didn't finish in the top 100...
so you finish 81st? who decided and ranked you?...a significant proportion of the time, it is someone with racial prejudice...i.e. AA is attempting to nullify the hiring/promoting bias in the system...
that's not to say i'm in agreement with it...i'm conflicted about it, actually...mainly b/c AA assumes racism built into the system...many times, it is the case, but many times it isn't...kind of like a drug with side-effects...noone's been able to target the problem precisely, so it's treated with a blanket that causes problems of its own...i'm not sure which is better, just like i'm not sure whether taking heartburn medication that causes me to have headaches is better than taking nothing at all...
in the end, i think many people feel like it's better to do something rather than nothing, even if the something is just another headache...
Browns fans are born with it...
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Quote:
in your example, i can point out the problem that i believe AA is meant to address...(ignoring that you've said they are to hire a majority of blacks, which is not mandated)...
well i thought that they hire based on makeup of population..all i know is a buddy of mine was passed up because they had to hire so many black people....in other words the fire department had to reflect the population it serves....
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so you finish 81st? who decided and ranked you?...a significant proportion of the time, it is someone with racial prejudice...i.e. AA is attempting to nullify the hiring/promoting bias in the system...
first off, this wasen't me....as far as ranking goes it was a physical agility test, and a general knowledge test.....
thats how applicants are ranked...how is that bias? and to say a significant amount of the time its someone with racial prejudice is just plain wrong....
a test is a test....to imply that if a white person gives it...who cares, and how do you know that anyway.....thats a big problem with me...
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in the end, i think many people feel like it's better to do something rather than nothing, even if the something is just another headache...
i understand, but it still doesn't solve the problem....
when are people gonna be judged just on there merits...
the whole process basically insinuates that blacks aren't as smart as whites....and thats bs...people are as learned as they want to be....i know alot of white guys that want to be firefighters and you know what....they don't get jobs cause they aren't smart enough...
pretty soon there won't be any qualifications for anything because someones feelings might get hurt....
but again, i understand your point, but 2 wrongs don't make a right...
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Quote:
well i thought that they hire based on makeup of population..all i know is a buddy of mine was passed up because they had to hire so many black people....in other words the fire department had to reflect the population it serves....
could be...i've just never heard of the level of inequality 60% vs. population being, what, 20%?...
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first off, this wasen't me....as far as ranking goes it was a physical agility test, and a general knowledge test.....
thats how applicants are ranked...how is that bias? and to say a significant amount of the time its someone with racial prejudice is just plain wrong....
a test is a test....to imply that if a white person gives it...who cares, and how do you know that anyway.....thats a big problem with me...
you said "you" in your example, so i did too...
it sounds like you gave a hypothetical example that was based on a very real situation, and then you're throwing the details at me to refute the point...
i even said that i have a problem with the fact that AA assumes bias, which you point out is not always the case...but i can be confident about a significant proportion of the time...i just probably wasn't clear what i meant...i didn't mean majority...8% is significant to me...if someone is denied a fair shake 8% of the time, then that's too much...question is, i guess, is it right to convert 8% of qualified unhired minorities into 5% qualified unhired whites?...if it was free, sure...but for the $$ it costs?...
as for how a test can be biased, i thought that was generally accepted...maybe i'm wrong...
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the whole process basically insinuates that blacks aren't as smart as whites....and thats bs...people are as learned as they want to be....
i don't buy that...it's about experience/education differences, not smarts...i mean, if i tested a biology major and a business major to work with me in a lab, it's pretty clear that the biology major has a leg up b/c he knows the terminology, protocols, etc...the business student could be much smarter...
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i know alot of white guys that want to be firefighters and you know what....they don't get jobs cause they aren't smart enough...
this probably influences our opinion more than we'd like to think...you know people negatively affected...an AA proponent in this thread mentioned their mother benefitting...i don't know anyone affected either way, and i'm on the fence...
Browns fans are born with it...
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Legend
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Quote:
in the end, i think many people feel like it's better to do something rather than nothing, even if the something is just another headache...
 
That makes about as much sense as peeing into the wind.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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well, on your wet walk home, you'd at least feel the bladder relief...  seriously...haven't you ever gotten out of stop-and-go traffic and taken the long route home just so you were moving?...i may not get there any sooner, but it makes me feel better sometimes...and, no, i don't think that is justification for AA...i'm just saying that was probably an influence pushing people to try and come up with a way to address the problem...
Browns fans are born with it...
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Legend
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I wouldn't feel the relief. Hell at my age I have to go again by the time I zip up  I would also sit in the traffic and wait, rather than take longer to get home. Now doing something just for the sake of doing it is just as stupid as using a cactus to wipe your arse because you can't reach the toilet paper.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
I would also sit in the traffic and wait, rather than take longer to get home.
ahh, but sometimes it is faster to drive the long route...so as entertaining as your sayings are, they aren't applicable...if you want to argue that the consequences of the AA program were not unforseen/definitive, that's fine...but generally speaking, you sitting in traffic and me gambling on the long route is just a difference in philosophy, not a smart vs. dumb thing...
Browns fans are born with it...
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Legend
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Quote:
not a smart vs. dumb thing...
It would be dumb around here. We don't have traffic jams, and the long route would waste 20 to 30 min.
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...if you want to argue that the consequences of the AA program were not unforseen/definitive, that's fine
There is nothing to argue about. AA is trying to replace racism (which may or may not be happening) with racism of it's own which does happen.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
could be...i've just never heard of the level of inequality 60% vs. population being, what, 20%?...
well i never said 60% i said 60/40 and that is 20% a quick google shows me the the demographics of cleveland are more like 51/41 black to white....but that wasen't the point..
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question is, i guess, is it right to convert 8% of qualified unhired minorities into 5% qualified unhired whites?...if it was free, sure...but for the $$ it costs?...
my point is, that it is wrong doing either...
and i really don't get how tests are bia....you either know general math, logic, and reading comprehension, spelling, and history, or you don't....
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i don't buy that...it's about experience/education differences, not smarts...i mean, if i tested a biology major and a business major to work with me in a lab, it's pretty clear that the biology major has a leg up b/c he knows the terminology, protocols, etc...the business student could be much smarter...
again...i believe these are general knowledge tests....typical high school stuff....these are things everyone learns....not specialty stuff....
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this probably influences our opinion more than we'd like to think...you know people negatively affected...an AA proponent in this thread mentioned their mother benefitting...i don't know anyone affected either way, and i'm on the fence...
i agree....both sides are getting hurt..thats in and of itself is a big problem....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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thought this was an interesting article for anyone interested race gap in education...
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Quote:
and i really don't get how tests are bia....you either know general math, logic, and reading comprehension, spelling, and history, or you don't....
There is certainly a bias in certain areas...I can remember an intelligence test being administered a few years ago where one of the 'general' questions related to Goethe.
Now, perhaps one thinks I'm wrong, but no one coming out of poverty, no matter how good their reading comprehension skills are, will have any idea who Goethe is. Generally, one doesn't come to Goethe unless they find themselves in a higher education setting. Even if one has the drive on their own to go to the library or study hard...you're simply not exposed to Goethe in the ghetto or the trailer park. You will see plenty of questions on aptitude and intelligence tests where the material presented isn't going to come to you unless you or your family has the financial backing to be exposed to them. And yet they're described as 'general' comprehension questions.
There are several factors and bias in aptitiude testing that revolve around gender and socio-economic status.
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Poser
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The tests he is referring to aren't structured that way, though. They are more common sense type things or things that relate directly to doing the job.
My brother is a police chief, as I've mentioned. They are right now hiring dispatchers, so I asked him about the test for the position to see if it could be biased. He said there is no way it can be. The test consists of things like listening to a "call" on a tape, taking notes, and then answering questions about the call. Things like what is the address, what was the nature of the problem, etc.
The next part of the test was comparing two addresses, numbers, phone numbers, etc. and saying if they were different or the same. Those are the types of questions on the test and he said that Civil Service tests pretty much are the same way. They are geared toward the job you are testing for, not for something like you are saying.
Tests can be bias, inadvertantly so IMO, but not a Civil Service test that was described above.
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Damn, racer. Great read- thanks for sharing it.
This should be required reading before anyone else posts another entry to this thread.
It's a bit long, but worth every minute spent. It's one of the most intelligent looks at race, education, and society I've read in years. A real eye-opener.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Quote:
Quote:
in the end, i think many people feel like it's better to do something rather than nothing, even if the something is just another headache...
That makes about as much sense as peeing into the wind.
They tried that and the 50% of the people bought into it. 
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Everybody knows Goethe pitched for the Tribe back in the 1930's.  and he only got the job because he was White.
Last edited by Dawg Duty; 05/19/08 07:46 PM.
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Legend
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Quote:
Everybody knows Goethe pitched for the Tribe back in the 1930's. and he only got the job because he was White.
IMO that's the best thing you've ever posted and probably the funniest thing I've read on here all year. 
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great article, RACER... i was very interested in this part, which described a false premise upo which my opinion was based... Quote:
By itself, Fordham's explanation of why black students underperform may not be sufficiently compelling. But Claude Steele of Stanford University (along with Joshua Aronson) has done research that indicates that other complementary factors contribute to poor academic performance by blacks.5 Steele's research on college students at Stanford and the University of Michigan indicates that when students are placed in a situation in which a poor performance on a standardized test would support a stereotype of inferior abilities because of the student's ethnicity or gender, then the student's performance suffers when compared with those who do not labor under this preconception. For example, when black students and white ones were given tests that they were told measured their academic abilities, black students did worse than whites. But when a control group of black students and white ones were given the same test but were told that the test did not have any such significance but was merely a laboratory tool, the difference in performance disappeared. He calls this phenomenon "stereotype threat."
i'm not the only one who has stuck foot in mouth on this board, but i'm happy to admit it when i do...
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So if you tell minorities they SHOULD do poorly on a test, then they do... if you treat them equally, then they perform equally.... Gee, a self-fulfilling prophecy, who'd a thunk it.
yebat' Putin
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i guess you're just infinitely smarter than i, DC...hats off to you...
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Hi DC: That paragraph was only one of MANY important points of the article. Truthfully, it digs a helluva lot deeper than that paragraph might suggest. It also delves into the societal stigmas that are attached to either ethnic group, and how those stigmas manifest themselves in everyday performance. It also touches on fundamental flaws in our system of education, and how those flaws limit the potential of not only Black students, but White students as well. It even outlines some of the steps we could take RIGHT NOW to begin fixing the perceived learning gap. (Gotta keep up with those Asians, now... don't we?)  I urge you to take the time to read this thing. It explains over half the opinions expressed by various posters on this board, and where (or how) those opinions were formed... it is well worth the time to read. You'll even see a little bit of yourself in there. Hell everyone will. Bottom line... sometimes you read something that just makes common sense. From your posts, I know you to be pretty much a realist, so I suspect that there will be a lot of things in this article that will sound or seem familiar to you. What it really does is give us some insight as to why there seems to be a separate reality for the races here in America. All I can say is- It really made me think.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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