DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum House passes minimum wage increase

Once again, how many single mothers are working for minimum, then tell me what their skills are.

You say I've picked my poison? I say you keep turning in circles.

The real bottom line, in case your taking notes, is, raising the minimum wage will do nothing to help these few people in the long run. In fact, it will draw more people into the abyss of poverty, so that in 5 years we will have more on the public dole. Pick your poison, pit, as it seems you have. You would prefer "feel good" legislation, as it makes you feel good, while you ignore the long term results, which will be bad not only for the "poor", but for you, me, and every other citizen as well.

Once a person has dug themselves a hole, doesn't it make sense to quit digging?

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Did you not say the 20's AND EARLY 30's?

That's a 15 year span by your mention (1920-1935) in which 6 were hardcore depression, and the state of the workforce was going through an entire change, as well as being post WWI and prohibition.

It didn't "start the" it "ended in 38"
It was started before the turn of the century. Edumacate yourself. Nothing is worse that shooting an unarmed man.
<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My wife and I both work, if she quit we could fire the maid, the cook, the chauffeur and the groundskeeper and we'd save 900 pesos a week.... <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

See what I mean?? <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I think my point was missed, but that's okay...probably for the best.

It wasn't missed on me.. I have a 10 year old in before and after school, and a 3 year old in day care... I know EXACTLY, TO THE PENNY, how much it costs a week to have my wife work.... and I've figured out the break even point at which it actually starts costing us money.... and it ain't at $20 an hour... <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

I didn't say it started at anytime....I said the Depression was Hardcore during 6 of the years you mentioned (1920-1935) which would be the 1929-1935 years.

And you proved my point alone alone by stating the depression started before the turn of the century, yet you use that as an example of people living in poverty.

and quit telling me to "edumicate" myself.

That wasn't my point. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Like I said, I didn't understand your point... I'll let it go now... <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

Funny how big business managed to follow these labor laws and minimum wage standards isn't it? These abuses started before the depression and were continuing after the depression was easing. It was about abuse towards the workers and greed on the part of big business. Nothing more and nothing less. As soon as these laws were passed,business complied.

Are you saying a depression is cause for 12 year olds to be forced to work 12-16 hour days? That sweat shop wages are acceptable because of a poor economy?

These practices were going on WELL before the depression. The depression had nothing to do with four peope working and still living in poverty.

Once again..... edumacate yourself The depression? There WASN"T any work during the depression. That was the problem. Not four people working in one household.
<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Check the employment rate during the depression. It was well before and coming out of a depression that big business was abusing workers to line their pockets,even using child labor in order to do it! There was civil unrest and violence as a result.

If common sense isn't practiced in this regard,we'll end back up at square one. And if people like you,who don't have a firm grasp of history are left in charge,that's exactly where we'll end up.

After milage and child care,how much would your wife have to make in order to make her second job "worthy of her effort"?

In this part of the country, and in the car business it would be closer to 25 percent of the population.

Once again I disagree with that statement. I see people every day who make under 7 bucks an hour and have families.

OH Pit..."...See,you're the type of guy who suggests they work so much they never spend time with her kids and teach them responsibility,then cry and moan when her kids are vandalizing your car cause mom's at work and can't supervise her kids."

See,Pit, it appears that you aren't the type of guy to realize that they shouldn't make three babies if they do not or do not plan on getting the attributes equal to earn a better paying job.

It is folly to believe that undereducated/underemployed adults living together should be having kids they cannot provide for...once the babies are here we must assist of course.

The thought that supplementing whatever wages these people can make with food stamps, clothing vouchers, gov't funded trade training/education is necessary...but to furnish them with transportation and babysitting is too much.

Heck if they have to walk to work maybe they'll be too tired to make any more kids...we can only hope.

Holy cow - the first part of your post is just gibberish - going off half cocked, so to speak.

The last part, the part I quoted, is especially nice.

See, pit, if people that have the view of "golly, it's not fair that I work and only make this much, cause my neighbor works, but he makes more than I do, and I should get as much as he/she does" ever get power, this country will go to hell in a handbasket 20 times faster than it is now.

See, used to be, you got up, you did your job, and you lived according to your income. Now, it seems some people want the "wants" of life to be given to them. Not the needs, the wants.

Lesson 1: see Oprah and her decision to build a school in Africa instead of helping a school, or school system here in the states.

Give someone a fish to eat, he's gonna eat it, and be asking for one the next day, and the next, and pretty soon, he'll be asking for bread and butter to go with that fish. Then, you get the gov't. involved, the guy will get fish, bread, butter, applesauce and 2 napkins.........

And we shouldn't have gone into Iraq without evidence to back up our intel. But in both cases,we're there now so we have to deal with it,right?

Nobody expects people to be able to raise a family on minimum wage. Just that the spending power of a minimum starting point be kept in place.

Minimum wage was started in 1938. It's a little late to be whining about it now. And thank God it is. Because if it were lefdt up to people like you,it would still be $2,25.
<img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

Or working in a place like this, for a dollar a day.

Quote

"If you can't pay your worker the minimum wage, you can't operate. You can't. If you can't ensure the minimum environmental safeguard you shouldn't operate."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rezwana Hasan


The Ship Breakers Of Bangladesh

And how does have a minimum starting point for wages have ANYTHING to do with that? A minimum standard isn't going to "keep up with the Joneses". Nobody is advocating ANYTHING in that regard whatsoever.
<img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />


Oh,you mean when our nation had decent paying jobs you could raise a family on without a degree? Yes,I remember those times. Now my daughter needs an associates degree to run a gas station. Going backwards doesn't make anybody happy. And all we're talking about is breaking even. Compound inflation over the past ten years then look at the minimum wage. This isn't even enough to break even for inflation. And you can't even cover "needs" with it,much less "wants". So once again,your comments have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

But Pit don't you realize all a young person has to do is go to school ( money will fall out of the sky so they can afford to attend) then they can jump right into a 15 or 20 dollar a hour job. I mean it's just that easy. Get a little education and all your problems are solved <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

My education was 100% student loans that I am paying back. If someone is making minimum wage for more than 2 years, it's their own fault for being too lazy to do something about it.

j/c on you Squires. The minimum wage has not been raised in 10 years. In the last 10 years most industries have adjusted to inflation to componsate their employees. A very valid case IMO could be made that since the minimum wage has stayed stagnent for the last 10 years it's almost as if those people are getting paid less then they were 10 years ago because the same amount of money can't buy when it used to.

So what, now being educated is a bad thing?

Yeah, back in the 20's, 30's, it was a big deal to have a college eduation. Actually, it was a big deal to have a high school degree back then.

Times change, my man. Now, an associates degree means very little, just under a 4 yr. degree.

See pit, degrees are everywhere. And, like it or not, degrees get you first shot at a job, if you're competing with non degreed people. Can't say that's right, but I can say that's just how it is.

So, yeah, today, if you don't have at a minimum a high school degree, you probably are stuck.

And GM, if you check it out, the poor people can afford college just as much as the "rich" people, or even the middle class people, like me. Sacrifice, and borrow. Why borrow? In the hopes that you are smart enough to go into a profession that pays well.

Wanna take "college studies" as a major? Well, at least you're ahead of the guy who didn't graduate h.s............

Face it, life is a struggle. Yeah, back in the day you could get by on $2 a week.

My grandfather bought his first house making $14 per week.

Is that what you guys want? And my grandma did not work outside the home. Is that what you want pit? You talk about the depression era and try to compare it to today. Just doesn't work. See, pit, times have changed.

Times have changed so working people at way below the poverty level should be standard practice now?
<img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

It was the mid 80's before any of this really changed. ie...manufacturing jobs being exported out at the expence of the American worker.

I guess you figure working people at way below the poverty level should be standard practice because that's the type of what I consider to be "immoral conduct" you're advocating here. Sad,very sad............

I just don't agree with that. When I started working, the minimum was $1.50 if I remember correctly....maybe less....at any rate...when it went up people we always claiming it would cost jobs and business' would close.

Maybe some did......but life went on.

My only point is this....the middle some claim we need to aim for is shrinking big time...college degrees aren't worth what they once were. What was once a jump start to a good job is now almost a minimum requirement to a nothing job.

If we want this society to expand and survive in a healthy manner, we have to ensure people have incentive to work full-time. As it is, working at minumum wage is really less than sitting on your butt and doing nothing...it is just enough to knock you out of food stamps and free housing.

As I stated before...I am a Republican for the most part....but as a country, people need to make more because more and more....low end jobs are the norm...and if business isn't forced into wage hikes...guess what??

This arguement a job isn't worth something is crap....if business was allowed to set it own rates....jobs would be worth $3 a hour because that is what they can pay some Mexican in Mexico.

The next step is we are going to have to protect American jobs and not allow companies to close shop here and import.

The United States is the best business climate in the world and if they expect to do business here, they should be expected to provide jobs here.

Here is the real problem IMO....if the bottom end doesn't go up....the middle never will. The jobs that have made America great...the mid level managers...the PR department...sales...service...all of these folks are slowly falling behind because if the bottom doesn't go up, the people with some actual skills don't have enough of a gap to keep them happy.....for a while the middle stays the same, but in time it goes up because people won't take a promotion if the pay is just a little over entry.

Julie....you probably work your ass of at the hospital in a good position(sorry, I forget exactly what it is you do...med records/compliance??)...at any rate....I don't know how big a hospital you work for but your Chief Administrator probably pulls 400k....CEO,CFO,VP Marketing probably pull 200k or more.....you might make 60k.......but how much do the folks at HCA or whoever owns your place of work(maybe it is a country set-up) make....way more....millions....and that gets to the point...the wages of the top tier are way out of whack.

I don't see how paying the people in dietary more is going to hurt anything.....sure, they might be making more than that....but those wages will go up sooner or later if they want to keep the help.....

Minimum wage is good in my book.

I see it another way...the argument is some jobs aren't worth the cost....and maybe not....but business has to be wary because at some point, their service won't be worth the cost. Wage elasticity and price elasticity should marry....and they haven't...no where close.

Many business' have way more ability to bring wages in line with the income from services provided than they admit...somehow I don't think business is going to close shop and prices will go only so far as consumers allow...

When places start closing their doors, we will know the wage structure has exceeded the capacity.......I just don't think we are anywhere near that.

No we dont. WTH are you talking about?? I have negotiated several contracts with a coule different unions and have been to seminars on contract talks and nowhere have I ever heard of a union contract that is based on what minimum wage is. With a contract your wages are what the contract says no matter what the minimum wage is. Unless you have a REALLY bad contract that is paying you barely above the old minimum wage and the increase would be to more than what the contract is. A contract can not go against what the law says. All labor agreements have that in the pre amble.

KING

Pit if you recall I supported the increase in my first post here. I have no problem raising the lowest wage to even $10.00/ hr as long as you realize that within 2 or 3 years the market will adjust prices to equalize the buying power back to previous levels.

My problem is not in the actual minimum wage but with the theory that anyone other than the minimum wage earner is responsible for the earner's difficulties. Save for mental or physical deficiencies we are all responsible for our own efforts [or lack of], work ethic and habits [or lack thereof] and porr life choices which is generally why minimum wage workers are ...well, minimum wage earners.

My formal education is 11th Grade (twice, then dropped out), the rest is self-taught ..... and my salary is a good bit above $20/hr

My older brother is union sheet metal worker...hardly requires a higher education.... and makes close to $60,000/year AFTER his union dues and stuff are paid.

My sister put herself through real estate classes and now manages a Howard Hannah office and makes well above $20/hr.

My old roommate, the only one used as an example here that has a higher education, put herself through nursing school and is now a cardiac nurse making really nice money (btw... if you're somehow reading this... Howdy Donielle...haven't seen ya in ages <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />)



Tell me why anyone is "stuck" at minimum wage for any reason other than their own choices in life.

And I don't have a problem with them making less than ten an hour. All the minimum wage is,is simply a "rock bottom standard".

All I really expect it to do is stay with inflation so people starting out have the same buying power as minimum wage earners before them did.

Not more or not less. That way,they're not "rewarded" for staying in minimum wage jobs at all. They're just not going backwards.

See,the ajustments have already been made. All the people around them have gotten raises for ten years. Goods and services have gone up for ten years. All major necessaties of life such as utilities and food have gone up for ten years.

The only one's who have been left out are the low end jobs. I'm not advocating we bring them up to snuff with people who are better educated and have applied themselves to do better with their life at all.

I'm just advocating that when they get a 40 hour paycheck,they have "the same buying power" that an individual who worked for minimum wage ten years ago did. Not more,just the same.

I GARUNTEE when I started out at $2.50 an hour minimum wage,my paycheck went a LOT further than people starting out at minimum wage paychecks do now. That's my point. People starting out shouldn't be going backwards. Nor should someone first starting out make the same as people who have worked and applied themselves.

But I think they should be on equal footing with their counterparts from a decade ago.

JMHO

King...I will not doubt your experience but it does not set the standard for most union contracts throughout the nation. My point reflects the states dealings with union contracts for work done for the state government.

"I realize that your union friends tell you that a raise in minimum wages means nothing to them but they may be wrong...without knowing the situation.
States set their own minimum wages throughout the country with the national standard to be observed. A PREVAILING WAGE is determined in most states by union rates and generally this is considered when the states minimum wage is determined.
In many states the union then resets it's lowest rates to anywhere between 2 and three times the minimum wage. In Missouri it is generally 3 times the minimum wage according to the Springfield Journal."

The fact is that a large increase in the minimum wage will certainly affect most future contracts with state and federal gov'ts work.

So the minimum wage does in many instances affect the union wages "

To a point.....but not in total....prices have been going up for 5 years but wages haven't.

Business always adjusts everything for inflation except 1 line on the P&L.

If wages don't go up, what really causes prices to go up?? Raw costs like oil will have impact no doubt.....but trust me....somewhere in there they slip a little more in to pad the bottom line.

Insurance is a good example...costs have gone up because losses are gaining on premiums collected....and premium dollars have gone up....but the number of people who carry insurance have dropped. Why?? The cost of the service have outpaced the ability of people to pay as the costs to insure have risen...

Wages in this counrty are probably 20% lower than they were 40 years ago on a cost of living index.

Everybody has to "start out" somewhere. Do you feel a person "starting out" should be "startinbg out" with the same buying power of a decade ago? Just wondering?

And those single moms? Should they make the same as a single mom did ten years ago? Maybe she is going to school. But you expect them to live in "abject poverty" for a few years because minimum wage has been frozen for a decade?

Don't you feel minimum wage should be set according to the buying power? Or do you feel the minimum age of a decade ago gives you the same standard today as it did a decade ago?

All the people around them over the last ten years have had the sense to get a job that pays better.... not hard to do over the course of a decade if ya just work at it a little. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I am proud of you....but that is really a narrow minded view.

It is easy to say when you have "made it"....but things could have gone differently due to no real fault of your own.


You are a sharp guy based on our meeting......but the facts of life are this...some people aren't...heck....a bunch of them post here <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />....we aren't talking about making people rich....$8 an hour is a crummy $320 a week....some crappy run down apartment is going to cost your $450 a month....$50 a week for food is a whole lot of beans and broth to eat....you start figuring the other stuff and there isn't much left.

I guess it is just the views of people....my idea of a society and how it is viewd isn't how well the top level lives, it is how the bottom level lives....I am not talking about the bums and lazy people...I am talking about the people who get up everyday and work.

As it is...there isn't much that seperates them from the lazy bum who sits around all day on the public tab drinking a few quarts of malt liquor.

well, perhaps I should have left myself off of the examples list.... maybe focused more on my brother, but you're right things could have gone a different way, but it was always up to me to fix it if & when it did. Noone was going to do it for me.

as for focusing more on my brother... he's a tinner, but as an example a union Laborer makes a helluva good paycheck... a good bit better than mine actually... and as long as you're capable of fogging a mirror and aren't afraid of a little work, you're qualified.

Yes, I realize that there are plenty of unfortunate situations out there where people truly do need assistance, but in my eyes those are the situations where someone is already collecting welfare or whatever because they are unable to work, not because they havn't been doing anything to improve their lot in life and can't get a couple extra bucks an hour. I've just always fet that if you want more money, go get it... and you don't have to be sharp or bright to do it. Hell, we're talking about getting yourself up to just $10/hour to kill the whole debate.... take a typing class or a computer class... secretaries make at least that much. Or wait tables or cook at an Applebees....there's an Ad on Cleveland.com right now wanting a Broiler Cook for $13-15/hr. and a Banquet Server position for $11/hr.


Either way... In the end, this pay raise will be a blip on the radar and the inflation effects will just see-saw back and forth. Pond Ripples.

Funny how you left the "starting out" part totaly out of your response. I'm not talking about "the same people" for ten years.

I'll try again even though I know you were fully aware of the question.........................

So you feel a person "starting out" today,should make the same wage as a person "starting out" ten years ago? That is somehow a reasonable expectation?

Why not look at inflation rates for the two years after the rate hike ten years ago for a barometer?
<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

why? they aren't being forced to take that job. You seem to be making the assumption that you can only start out at minimum wage. If you have to because your parents are kicking you out or something, then take the job so you have some income, but then start doing what it takes to get a better one.... like walking around applying elsewhere.

I'm not sure you've answered this question from Pit:

"So you feel a person "starting out" today,should make the same wage as a person "starting out" ten years ago? That is somehow a reasonable expectation?"

If someone wants to work for minimum wage thats their choice. If they don't, they will find a higher paying job. There are starting off jobs that pay more than minimum wage. I got a job right out of high school making 9 bucks an hour. All I had to do was know how to read.

Thats the thing about this country, people have the freedom to make such choices. Their career is in their control. Perhaps people woud rather the government tell everyone how much they are allowed to make. They seem to want the government to do everything else for them. Heaven forbid if someone had to actually put a little effort into making their own life better.

This is a super point. Perhaps it got lost in your long post. But for everyone on this thread that worked hard, took classes, or overcame poverty in whatever way that they did needs to consider. We are all tied more closely to the bottom than to the top. Or at least those of us in the 40-100 range. And I would bet that covers nearly everyone on this thread.