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You're not basing his progress on anything... you're not even admitting progress and certainly can't point to a lack of it. This is a discussion better held at the end of the season.
Until a new season begins, what "progress" are you speaking of? Practice?
Fact is, we won't know what he has, or has not progressed in, until we see him play in some games.
We may see "tendencies" that give us cause for optimism, and I certainly hope we do.
But what "progress" am I supposed to be recognizing?
That the FO is trying to downplay a QB contraversy among the fans and media by standing behind DA in the public eye?
Until the "heat is on at crunch time", we won't know if or how much "progress" there is to speak of.
And yes, I noticed you "recognise" he has shortcomings, but you picked Bernie apart for a long paragraph while touched on DA in one sentence.
Look, the guy has to "show he's improved during game time". The end of last season wasn't doing it.
I'll be thrilled to see him having progressed a LOT if that happens to be the case. But you want to give him kudo's for "progressing" by throwing the ball in "practice"?
Like I said, the jury is still out.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Poser
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The difference in the fandom is because of those things I mentioned. I will also be happy to compare them in 7 years....and I hope the results are better for the Browns with DA at QB.
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I couldn't do it for the longest time, but I finally was able to get myself to go back and rewatch the final Cincy game. Here are some thoughts after watching it the second time around. Thought this was a good place to put them as some of them pertain to DA.
--All four interceptions by DA were bad throws. What I mean by that is they really weren't good defensive plays, mess ups by the receiver, tipped balls, etc. They were all very poor decisions.
--Having said that, when DA had his wits intact, we moved the ball. No QB since our return has been able to move the ball like this guy. Sure Chud, OL, and skill players get credit too, but this guy absolutely makes some beautiful throws. Even in the games that people consider his poorest, he makes some beautiful throws.
--This was another game in a long list that after re-watching I felt it's not as bad as people thought it was when considering some of the good with the bad ... including two beautiful TD strikes to Edwards and a number of beautiful throws to Winslow. Had quite a few checkdowns as well.
--Not once did I say to myself 'what the hell is wrong with Chud?' nor did the announcers. I know many people pegged this loss on Chud and not running enough. Honestly, the play calling seemed fine in retrospect. I know it was windy, but that did not account for any of DA's picks.
--It's arguable that Palmer had a worse day than Anderson. He really didn't move his team, threw two terrible picks, and generally did not look anywhere near the #3 QB in the league that many believe him to be.
--I don't think that we are ever out of a game with DA just due to the big play ability. I had almost forgotten that we nearly came back and won that game. He did seem unflappable and did not seem to buckle under the pressure of the moment. Appeared to shake off the INTs and keep moving forward.
I think DA has the chance to be something pretty special. It would not surprise me in the least to see him be our long-term QB and to see Quinn shipped out. I'm starting to like him more and more as I go back and rewatch these games. The guy moves the ball down the field.
Those picks were very, very bad, however. If he is still making those same dumb mistakes this year, then I'll retract my 'special' statement. But if he has even improved 25%-35% over last year, I think we could have something really great on our hands.
Anyway, if anyone else has rewatched the game, I would love some feedback to what you saw the second time around. The defense was an absolute sieve, yet made some big plays when we needed them. Looking forward to the new DL.
For what it's worth, JMHO.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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All Pro
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More Eoisums...  Which is cool...   Some of your posts about DA have been poo, caca, verbal diareeha, crap, plainly just worry about worry... Funny thing about our memories as we age... One of the last exchanges we had on here was just talking football and you thanked me for it...?   Another interesting point about this place too is how different PM's and general population discussions go ... Many times with many folks here have I in private and in GP discussed fundamentals, mechanics, leadership, intelligence, skill set, areas of strength and improvement. As well as opinions, views, perspectives, facts, stats... Like many here you have to choose who and how you have those discussions with... I have played and coached the QB position from Pop Warner to the college level. So I'm not uneducated when discussing QB. I am/was the original DA hater here... I was as adamant and vocal about my displeasure of the acquisition of DA as my opinion and positions on slick willie green... I ripped DA a new one and then some had the same doubts and concerns, and then some as you and others... Where were you then? I have been watching DA play for much longer than any of you here... Other than maybe Portland Dawg... I have watched DA do his thing for 3 years longer than any of you. So don’t attempt to infer that you or anyone else here have more experience watching, discussing facts, football or sharing opinions about DA. I'm still not pimping DA as a Hofer or franchise QB yet... For obvious reasons... 18 starts and one less than one full season as the leader of the Browns? DA has drastically improved in many areas. Namely his footwork. He's not throwing off his back foot anywhere near as much as he used too. Example; football talk here; he bends his front leg now, improving his accurancy, throwing & release mechanics. reducing his over throws and improving the angles of his medium and deep throws. DA has earned the position he is in by his play and leadership. The FO and CS has chosen DA as the starting QB for the Browns, so I’m behind that until that changes. Here is a thought for the worrisome... , Go watch several of DA’s OSU West games as a junior and senior… Do you really want to doubt or worry? Or maybe you see how far he has come and improved… It is as always, depending solely on how you want to look at it… Pulling out my front waste or belt area and looking down… Until next time…
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Again, you've taken what I wrote out of context. My comment was a response to this: Quote:
Most people say you can learn from history. And without doing that, you are doomed to repeat it. What else do we have to base his progress or lack of it on BUT his "history".
You say what do we have to base his progress on, but history... but you're not discussing progress, so your point about history as a measuring stick for advancement was meaningless. That's why I said it was a discussion better to be had later. I wasn't commenting on any specific progress he's made, though I hope and assume he has made some, and I like what I do see from what little I have seen. Admittedly that's not much, so it's not necessarily "kudos"... more like hopeful anticipation.
I also want to point out here, that this entire thread was started by an article pointing out the touch he has developed in his short game. 
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And yes, I noticed you "recognise" he has shortcomings, but you picked Bernie apart for a long paragraph while touched on DA in one sentence.
As I mentioned before, I pointed out Kosar's flaws to make a point about blind fandom. It was never meant to be a QB comparison. Though as I replied to CoachB, I'll be happy to see the comparisons in seven years or so.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Again, my feelings are this QB "debate" isn't as much about wanting Quinn to start as it is not wanting to see again what we saw from Anderson the second half of last season. At least that's all it is for me. I'll let you guys keep arguing about it, but in the end, as long as our best quarterback is on the field, that's all I care about.
What he said was that Quinn will be playing against SECOND STRINGERS... ...And the Browns know it...And we are gonna be prepared to SQUASH anything from the media that might be started in NEW YORK...Jets & Giants 1-2...
That's a damn impressive approach to this if u ask me...Kudos to our FO...
Why no mention of Anderson tho???
Haaa...I'll tell ya'll why...Anderson won't play but maybe 5 series in the ENTIRE 2 games with NY...That be da' Jetty's and the Giant wanna-bees...
That as much of this story as anyone needs to know...
Go Browns!!!
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Legend
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You know Y-Town, I agree 100% with what you're saying.
But let's look at those comments for a moment. You are talking about a "veteran savvy Bernie". You said you were refering to him "in his prime".
But in the case of DA, you are talking about a "first year starter". Wouldn't it be logical to see "gradual improvement" as he grows and matures instead of the opposite?
Not really.
Look at most things in life. We learn .... and in fact we might start out like we're on fire .....
Then we might take a step or 2 back ...... or sideways ....... and maybe even fall ........
Then we get back up .... learn from our mistakes ..... and improve ......
Man, I'd hate to have had someone look at my 1st year in the business world and say "He'll never get any better ...... and in fact he might have even regressed slightly from his best performance" .......... because it would have been true.
No learning curve ever goes straight up. Usually it's an upward curve ... followed by a dip or leveling out ...... then another upward curve ....... and frequently one improves in one area at the expense of another "stronger" area until they learn to reconcile the 2.
It's just the way people work.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The difference in the fandom is because of those things I mentioned. I will also be happy to compare them in 7 years....and I hope the results are better for the Browns with DA at QB.
Yeah, taken over a body of work over several years and several playoff appearances... without those, his IQ and touch wouldn't mean squat. And I agree, I hope the results are much, much better including a SB win or five.
It's funny... I remember being so pissed off watching Bernie play... I used to rant, "The first things you look for in a QB are size, mobility and the ability to get the freakin' ball over the line. This guy has none of that!" Yet I still rooted for him every time he played and every time we went to a play off game. And I was crushed by The Drive and The Fumble... As I was by Red Right 88. Yet Sipe and Bernie are loved by all. (I still love Sipe and think Bernie has a great football mind.) So when I hear all the moaning about the Cincy game and the Pro-Bowl game as being yardsticks for DA's ability, I go a little nuts.
Hell, if the D plays a little better, if the field goal isn't blocked in Oakland, or maybe even if Bodden doesn't kick the ball in AZ, we go to the playoffs and all the DA bashing is moot. But somehow for many, this first year starter who takes us to a 10-6 season, going undefeated at home, doesn't have the goods and his short comings are cause for all this concern, the Cincy game is the reason we didn't make the playoffs and an indicator of his true potential and ability... I just think it's BS... that's all.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Starting to see some frustration from Quinn? Be interesting to see how this manifests itself over the course of the season. http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2008/08/browns_quinn_determined_to_sta.htmlQuote:
Browns' Brady Quinn determined to stay patient in backup role to Derek Anderson
by Mary Kay Cabot Wednesday August 06, 2008, 10:55 PM
Brady Quinn will probably log more minutes than Derek Anderson in Thursday's preseason opener against the Jets and attempt more passes. He'll probably also see more No. 10 jerseys in the stands than Anderson's No. 3 and hear his name chanted more.
But when he walks off the field after about two quarters of work, he knows nothing will have changed. Anderson is the starting quarterback and virtually nothing Quinn does in these preseason games is going to unseat him.
"I wish that were different, but at this point in time, from what the coaches and the organization want out of this, that's kind of where they're pushing," said Quinn. "Obviously, you'd like there to be more competition. I think everyone wishes that were the case. But that's not reality, so you kind of have to roll with that situation."
Despite few opportunities in camp to throw to Braylon Edwards, Kellen Winslow or Donte Stallworth, Quinn continues to fancy himself a first-teamer.
"You have to," he said. "Things happen for a reason. There's no reason to sit there and be upset by your opportunity. I've talked to too many quarterbacks who have done well and who are doing well now in this league who have said 'if I could go back and do it over again, I would've continued to work as though I was a starter and not gotten down or frustrated with the situation.' There's really nothing you can do. It's out of your control."
Quinn tries to take it in stride when folks compare his camp to that of Anderson, despite the fact that Anderson is surrounded by Pro Bowlers such as Jamal Lewis, Edwards, Winslow and Joe Thomas. Quinn, on the other hand, was impressed when a questioner correctly pronounced the name of his new go-to tight end Brad Cieslak, who'd be a third- or fourth-teamer if Winslow and Steve Heiden were healthy.
"It's tough to sit out there and get an evaluation from that," Quinn said of the difference in the supporting cast. "All you can really do is go back to yourself and how you're improving. I'm a perfectionist, so even if it's decent, I never think it's good enough."
Anderson will play about a quarter against the Jets and Quinn will play most of the second and third, Crennel said. Ken Dorsey will be the closer. It could well be Quinn's most extensive playing time until the final preseason game.
"My biggest thing is getting more time and experience, and getting comfortable with hopefully some of the guys on the [first team] and everyone else you've been working with throughout camp," said Quinn. "I think at some point this preseason without a doubt I'll be working with some of the [starters]."
Meanwhile, Anderson -- who's been heating up in camp -- will continue to hone his timing with Edwards and develop it with Stallworth.
"Braylon and I talk after each completion or incompletion," said Anderson, who completed 16 of his 29 TDs passes last season to Edwards. "What I saw, what I thought, how his route was, where I threw the ball, just so he understands what I'm thinking at all times. We had one [Monday] where I threw the seven route to him and he was a little bit short but I saw it and just kind of adjusted to it and that's kind of what we have to do."
Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison? "Not there yet," said Anderson with a chuckle. "Still got a ways to go, but it's been working."
Stallworth, the Browns' top offensive free agent signing, missed the first week of camp with a pulled hamstring, but is starting to find his rhythm with Anderson.
"I grab him every day after practice and talk to him, make sure we're on the same page, tell him what I'm thinking, what I expect from him and I think it's getting there," said Anderson.
Crennel is looking forward to seeing what Stallworth and the other newcomers bring.
"I hope to see some of Stallworth's run-after-catch," said Crennel. "I also want to see how the new people fit into the defense, how the defense operates and who will hit and who will compete. I want to see how the rookies react to the environment with people in the stands and it actually counting.
"Also in the preseason, the tempo of the game increases, so I want to see how they handle that. I want to see who can operate under pressure, who can be a playmaker and all those kinds of things."
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Eh, I'm not sure I read frustration in that article...but I'm sure there has to be some level of disappointment since he wants to be the starter.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Geez,, haven't we heard all of this somewhere before
I don't know what you heard..but I know what I read..
DA cannot have a medicore season and survive..here's the thing U and a others don't get..the Browns need to see if DA has upside and IF HE CAN BE their QB..if he falters he won't be a starter..
U can insert any name other than QUINN in there..if DA can't do it, they'll find someone who can..
The team has surrounded the QB position with a solid Oline/RB/WR's..
If the QB can't rise above and beyond he's doesn't deserve to be the starter..
My PERSONAL stand is that the Browns need DA to play consistant football and improve ..not digress..if he can do that, the Browns will be in a better position and they can decide on Quinn after the season is OVER.
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I think he'll handle whatever happens with class, but I definitely sensed some frustration that he wasn't getting many reps with the starters ... he actually came close to dissing the backups just a little bit.
In my heart of hearts, I get the impression from this article that despite the company line of 'DA is the starter', that he thought he'd have more opportunities to shine in camp and give the coaches something to think about. It sounds like he feels he may have been slighted a little in that regard. I mean RAC does preach competition. This could be the one exception, though, just to avoid the circus it would create.
But frustrated or disappointed ... I can buy either of them.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I don't know what you heard..but I know what I read..
Whoa there big fella,,, I was kidding around or didn't you see the  after my comment... You just gotta Chil Lax man
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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2nd String
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Quinn's opportunity for an open competition was last year. Wonder if he regrets that hold out now. He certainly isn't hitting the escalators that he figured he would be, so he's not making the money his hold-out was intended to bring him.
In any case, I'm pretty excited about finally seeing him get some real gametime without the defense playing prevent. All we got last year was some mop up duty in the preseason and 1 series during the regular season. I'd like to see Brady take more (smart) chances down the field.
Brady will get his chance to play during the regular season. It's just not likely that Anderson will take ALL the snaps.
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Eh, I'm not sure I read frustration in that article...but I'm sure there has to be some level of disappointment since he wants to be the starter.
This is gonna be interesting...
What will the Browns do this off-season after Anderson puts up a less than stellar year???...I don't see this guy puttin' up 30TD's and 10 Picks...More like 30 and 20...Is that enuff to keep em' and trade Quinn???
What IS enuff to KEEP Anderson and that 10M cap hit in 09???...We'll know for sure by February when that 5M Roster Bonus is due...
Last edited by Dawg in Dayton; 08/07/08 09:38 AM.
Go Browns!!!
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Dawg Talker
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Geez,, haven't we heard all of this somewhere before
I don't know what you heard..but I know what I read..
DA cannot have a medicore season and survive..here's the thing U and a others don't get..the Browns need to see if DA has upside and IF HE CAN BE their QB..if he falters he won't be a starter..
U can insert any name other than QUINN in there..if DA can't do it, they'll find someone who can..
The team has surrounded the QB position with a solid Oline/RB/WR's..
If the QB can't rise above and beyond he's doesn't deserve to be the starter..
My PERSONAL stand is that the Browns need DA to play consistant football and improve ..not digress..if he can do that, the Browns will be in a better position and they can decide on Quinn after the season is OVER.
Gee THANKS AD I never heard that before... 
BTTB
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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Legend
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"Here's a guy, a starting QB, with no mobility, had a terrible side-arm throwing motion, was constantly getting passes batted into his face, couldn't throw a decent long ball, threw 8 TDs & 7 INTs his first year and 17 TDs & 10 INTs his second year. He made the Pro Bowl his third year while throwing 22 TDs & 9 INTs, but had decreased production every year after that and never made the Pro Bowl again. He had a completion percentage of 54% his 6th year, and while he consistently made the playoffs, was never able to get past the team's nemesis and make it to the Super Bowl. Yet he has attained god-like status as a hero of Browns football. Anyone care to guess who this is?"
CalDawg...regarding QB completion percentage...its a different Era in the passing game. Actually Bernie came too soon to the NFL (15 years too soon) he was made for the WCO which I don't care what offense you run now you have some version of the High Pct. Ball control passing game in it. No matter what passing attack you have its a take what the D gives you status. Its find the One on ones and take advantage of it. DA did that in the first half and we had One on ones very often in the 15+ range passes.
This now was taken away and we had the even higher pct. passes wide open for checkdowns by DA. His pct. was 50...not 50ish but 50 when the entire NFL world of QBs are close to the 70's or more in that area. On top of that it was not pressure that would do DA in as he hung to ball more and more (what so many claim was the reason our sacks went down was his 3 second clock...lol  that was the Steeler game #1 and not much else I saw but another discussion) and checked down but did so, so bad - horrific even.
To go and compare DA to Bernie cause of his completion pct. is just NON-FOOTBALL based. Its a poor representation of stats. You want to know a stat to prove my point here is one.
In that 6th season of Bernies with that 54% comparison there were only 3 QBs of note with a 60+ completion pct. And that actually was a very good account - usually there was maybe One, Two was a wow...in 90 there were 3.
Now in 2007 there were.... 23 in the top 24 QBs of NFL stats with completion pct. of 60+ Of course the lone missing one was guess who yes, our DA. This doesn't stick out like a sore thumb.
The next one of course at 25 was under 60...Eli Manning but he was way under and brought his game out of the woodwork at around #16 and in the playoffs totally improved. Hitting 60+ in the playoffs against the best Defenses. Thats called improvement. We didn't see that kind of improvement from DA - we saw digressing play in our top games. Pitt #2 and Bengal #2 - without a doubt our two biggest games the 2nd half.
Please...debate...please debate, see usually at this point I'll get a from a poster thinking if they laugh what I say off it will stick. Or I'll be told what I wrote was Drivel and Pooh Pooh, all I want to do is talk about football.
Now you brought a point up using Kosar as an example - I just tore it to shreds...thats the way good debates go. I'm right in my thoughts not because I have an Ego and must be right. I'm right in my thoughts cause they aren't based on Pooh Pooh, I've actually studied this in detail.
Too compare DA with Bernie is totally absurd. Man-O-Man what I would give to see Bernie in this Offense with Our weapons and OL...his intelligence in reading defense and tremendous accuracy! We would be unstoppable. NO FREAKIN COMPARISON!!!
As always JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
The next one of course at 25 was under 60...Eli Manning but he was way under and brought his game out of the woodwork at around #16 and in the playoffs totally improved. Hitting 60+ in the playoffs against the best Defenses. Thats called improvement. We didn't see that kind of improvement from DA - we saw digressing play in our top games. Pitt #2 and Bengal #2 - without a doubt our two biggest games the 2nd half.
Wow ..... So former 1st overall pick Eli Manning improved "around" game 16 .... in his 4th year ...... and this is an indictment on Anderson?
This was Manning's 4th year. He has started 56 games. How was he at the end of his 1st year? Or maybe his 2nd year? (1st full year starting) How about his 3rd year? It was in game 16 of his 4th year that the "lights came on" for him ........ and this shows that Anderson is a regressing mess of a QB because he hit some rough spots at the end of his 1st full year starting? Really?
Wow.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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All Pro
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I agree fully. There are maybe 2 people on the board who absolutely despise DA. Maybe 2.
For me, I just want the person who can do the best job in there. Right now, from what I've seen and read that's DA. Hopefully he can round out his game. If he can get his short throws improved some...(which he has been working on) and eliminate 2-3 boneheaded interceptions hes a franchise QB.
I don't think anyone can argue that. He has the one thing you cant teach, an arm. If he does the two things I mentioned above and we're looking at 3700-4000 yds 30td 15-17 ints, and a 60% completion rate...I don't think theres an argument, Quinn will be shipped out following the season.
He doesn't want to be a backup and I don't blame him. He also has the tools. Though with his smarts I think he'd be a MUCH better fit for a pure WCO. Ala Montana.
For me it's not a matter of fully supporting one or the other. I wish them both well. If DA falters I damn well want Quinn ready to take over the team. Tonights game is gonna show alot me thinks.
I don't care who plays what position on this team, I support the TEAM not INDIVIDUALS.
"I don't remember any of my catches. I remember the drops." - Kellen Winslow II
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"This was Manning's 4th year. He has started 56 games. How was he at the end of his 1st year? Or maybe his 2nd year? (1st full year starting) How about his 3rd year? It was in game 16 of his 4th year that the "lights came on" for him ........ and this shows that Anderson is a regressing mess of a QB because he hit some rough spots at the end of his 1st full year starting? Really?
Wow."
And your argument is what...just cause you can take an obscure fact and bend it in your direction. There were a lot of points I brought up...Eli Manning was the most insignificant and the only one actually that bent DA's way and guess what. I put it there anyway knowing its a plus for DA.
As for your post... "So former 1st overall pick Eli Manning improved "around" game 16 .... in his 4th year"
And here is the fact...ty btw for bringing it up  DA has our First round pick breathing at his back...Eli had Lorenzen...Baby Huey pushing him.
DA doesn't get 4 years to bring his game together...it is as simple as that! The actual point is - which you are missing and just grasping for straws. Is that YES, a 56% could possibly be acceptable in this ERA - IF YOU ARE DOING BETTER AT THE END OF THE SEASON FROM THE BEGINNING. Not the opposite.
Is this the beginning for ELI or just a freak one time happening??? There still are questions out there for him to answer. If he continues hitting a low % of passes it will not be considered great but just a one shot wonder.
DA - got worse in his completion pct. as the year went on. And against the good defenses...they were Horrific.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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And your argument is what...just cause you can take an obscure fact and bend it in your direction.
So, what's new about that We've all done it Eo..you, me, everyone has done that exact thing.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I saw it..I'm very edgy right now, my wife's in the hospital..so my bite ratio is very high..and I want to gnaw on something..
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GeeZ man,, I hope your wife is OK. sorry to hear that. Go ahead,, Gnaw on me for a while,, I'm a big boy, I can take it Best to your wife man..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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j/c
I hope, besides touch, DA has developed an ability to look to other receivers instead of locking on to one receiver. That was another issue I had with him. He'd drop back, look to his first receiver on the play, and he might as well have said "Hey [insert receiver name here] here it comes!" I noticed this with Frye as well.
And that's not nitpicking, because I'm no DA hater in the least. Just something I noticed that he needs to improve on. Hopefully he has.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I have to wonder if Brady ever layed in bed at night kicking himself thinking (damn if I would have signed early last year instead of trying to squeeze out a few more bucks, I might have been the starter last season)
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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There is absolutely no doubt about it, GM. I would bet anything it's a nightly ritual.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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No DA doesn't get 4 years to "get his act together". There are so many cases where a 1st year starter actually does worse at the end of his 1st year than at the beginning .... but rail away ..... Matt Hasselbeck ... in his 3rd year in the league ... and 1st year starting ... barely completed 50% of his passes in December. (2001) Carson Palmer, in his breakout year of 2005, posted 2 games with his worst completion percentages of the year in December. He also had a game against us where he put up an impressive 53 QB rating. *gasp* Tony Romo was horrible last season in December. He posted a 22 QB rating in one game.  He completed a high percentage of passes .... but no one would consider his 2-2 record, with 3 TDs and 5 INTs ...... as a successful December ..... nor would they consider it "progress". Phillip Rivers ended last year conpleting roughly 56.8% of his passes in November and December ..... after having a much higher completion percentage in the 1st 2 months of the season. Clearly he regressed as well. Peyton Manning ... in the 2000 season ..... had 4 of his last 6 games feature sub-55% completion percentages. They shoulda cut him ... he was clearly regressing. You can claim that others have insignificant facts .... but don't become so blinded by your own brilliance that you can't see the holes in your own arguments. There are 3 simple facts that I'll end with: Last year, Anderson threw more TD passes than every other Browns QB in history with the exception of Brian Sipe. Last year the team ..... which had a horrible defense, and was picked to be the worst team in the entire NFL by most "experts" won 10 games, and came within a bounce here or there of winning a couple of others. Every writer who visits the Browns states how this is Anderson's team ..... how he is the leader ..... and how the other players respond to him. Now, all of your conjecture, opinion, and platitudes can't dispute the 3 above facts. Not one of them. You can imagine how things might be ..... you can dream of how things might be ...... you can even pretend that things are as you desire ..... but the simple fact is that the team responds to this QB ... wins with this QB .... the players like and respect him ..... and the coaches and FO believe in him. Now .... I' looking forward to watching a pre-season exhibition tonight .... which means very little ..... but is fun nonetheless.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Whoa Dawg : All my best to your better half .
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Good thoughts & prayers for you and your wife, Tacker.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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"No DA doesn't get 4 years to "get his act together".
You do realize this IS his 4th year 
Matt Hasselbeck ... in his 3rd year in the league ... and 1st year starting ... barely completed 50% of his passes in December. (2001)
Carson Palmer, in his breakout year of 2005, posted 2 games with his worst completion percentages of the year in December. He also had a game against us where he put up an impressive 53 QB rating. *gasp*
Tony Romo was horrible last season in December. He posted a 22 QB rating in one game. He completed a high percentage of passes .... but no one would consider his 2-2 record, with 3 TDs and 5 INTs ...... as a successful December ..... nor would they consider it "progress".
Hasselback could be an example...but then again Hasselback is far from a great QB - did he also have the Offensive Machine DA had and were they fighting for a Playoff spot?
Palmer in 05 what was that??? A two game example...lol you are kidding me and that was them fighting to reach that great milestone of .500???
Rivers...Was mess he threw for ONLY 56.8% completion in Nov and Dec...much lower than the rest of the year. Well got news for you Bro...thats higher than DA for the ENTIRE season collectively. So lets see DA is OK accurately because his entire season adds up to the two worst months of Phillip Rivers... nice try.
Romo...a one game bomb in December...rediculous analysis and guess what there are a few that actually are questioning Romo because of his late record and Playoff losses. How on earth does that make DA sexier...
You bring up stats like that is going to impress...WOW! NICE STATS and they are nice. Sorry you had to go through the trouble to get them, but at least you are trying. But you are trying to PAINT a picture that looks somewhat like a Picasso but just not quite.
"You can claim that others have insignificant facts .... but don't become so blinded by your own brilliance that you can't see the holes in your own arguments."
Did I hurt your feelings... now we get the insults.
My brilliance tells me that DA has to improve his accuracy...PURE AND SIMPLE...
Those posing "INSIGNIFICANT FACTS" like Bernie's completion percentage in 1990 is just that INSIGNIFICANT...and I spelled it out to you. You call that Brilliance sorry but don't mistake brilliance for just being plain accurate.
24 out of the top 25 QBs in 2007 had 60+ completion pct. in 1990 only 3 out of all of the rated QBs. You call that INSIGNIFICANT and its ok to compare DA with Bernie...thats not brilliance. But then maybe I see that as common sense and you see it as a claim of brilliance...why Insult me with Garbage like that.
And then to bring a slew of insignificant facts (that I will ASSume are FACTs) and because they are facts somehow vindicate your opinion. When you don't even state what you are trying to OPINE? Just exactly what are you saying.
DA is as good as Payton cause you put a fact out there.
Carson Palmer cause you found 2 games?
Romo cause he had a really bad game?
Rivers cause he did better in his Worst case scenario than DA in his entire year...boy did you blow that one...lol - you better edit that if you can cause it really makes your case look defeated.
"Last year, Anderson threw more TD passes than every other Browns QB in history with the exception of Brian Sipe."
True our Offense was awesome and we did get to play a bevy of defenses that simply were not that good...With EXCEPTION to...fill in the blank.
btw - there are no EXCEPTIONS when you state EVERY QB IN HISTORY...its an oxymoron statement.
We won 10 games last year which was great. The Defense btw was not as incompetent as you wish all to believe. If thats your case and DA won the 10 games himself then delude yourself. 10 Wins? Just Bengal #1 wowed me in regards to DA, as well as the RAMS (winless btw when we played them) and also the SeaHawk game (the only team with a winning record btw out of those 10 wins).
Did I love the 10 wins...you bet but thats history - this whole discussion is about if DA is our Franchise QB. Your one year stats in an incredible Offensive Environment that we built here don't come close to proving that.
Your 3 facts are what makes you LIKE HIM! Woopity do - And guess what? If he does not IMPROVE his ACCURACY DEFICIENCIES...you will be making me a longer list of why you HATE DA.
All I'm saying is these are the facts - He must improve his accuracy.
I have also stated in my Brilliance, take it or leave it. That he can improve his accuracy on touch passes, Bomb and corner fades specifically with diligent practicing which I think he is capable of.
I have also stated Choreographed 3 step drop and hitting short passes that he's working on as a primary target is not his problem - those passes are not decisions but strategic plays let loose in 2 seconds. I think DA can improve on those short passes - again with hard work.
Its the Check downs when we have over 10 yard routes as our primary targets and very HIGH percentage passes are being GIVEN TO US by the D - it is those that DA was HORRIFIC...not bad - not just below OK but horrific.
And I simply do not know if we can go anywhere if he doesn't improve in this area.
Can he...maybe but so much about those passes have to do with footwork...problems with his footwork throughout his career in school and in the NFL. How much can he improve? I don't know - I ain't his dance teacher.
I'm just stating what to look at for improvement...cause if he does improve he very well could be our Franchise QB we have been looking for.
You see I do have an open mind and so do most of those questioning DA...its funny cause the big cry of those backing DA is we hate him and have blinders and can't see. We do see everything you did. 29 TDs 10 wins...but its not as impressive as you think. Thats like me saying Ruben Droughns is a great RB cause we never had a 1,000 yd rusher in like 24 years. its nice but not a revelation.
The players like and follow DA - there is no dispute there. But you think he is good to go because of 10 wins, 29 tds - sorry no exceptions here...he actually needs to improve and not just a normal 4th year step from year 3...he must conquer his accuracy problem. 25 top QBs in 07 - only one had a completion percentage under 60...ONLY ONE - I'll drill that in cause it is why he is not our Franchise QB to this point. Will he be?
"you can even pretend that things are as you desire ."
Pretend? one of us is pretending...guess who
Desire? Don't you dare take that step about Crapola like that.
I'll tell you what I desire...DA to be the best freakin QB ever!!! How Dare you get UPITY with me with Crap like that 
OK you're a better fan than me cause you PRETEND to believe DA is a made Franchise QB who needs just some offseason tweaks.
If he makes the necessary improvements...great, best thing to happen for us. But even if he does he worked incredibly hard and its short of a miracle if it happens.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I made a comment a few days ago ( I thought the Browns where stacking the deck as it where ; as not to start a problem in the QB. spot ) and you said I would get nailed . Well I think some in the world of Football are saying the same thing .. I just hope that BQ. gets at least a little time with the starters .. You never know when the kid might have to show up ..
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To compare DA with Bernie is totally absurd. Man-O-Man what I would give to see Bernie in this Offense with Our weapons and OL...his intelligence in reading defense and tremendous accuracy! We would be unstoppable. NO FREAKIN COMPARISON!!!
Kosar, with this group would be awesome. Simply awesome.
He'd be giving Manning and Brady a real run for their money and my money would be on Kosar. This OL keeping Kosar upright and in the pocket with time to scan the field would be death for the opposing team. It would be unreal.
The real reason IMO that you can't compare the passing % of his era with today's game is SIMPLE. One single reason: rule changes that have taken away DBs ability to be physical with WRs.
Remember Minnifield and Dixon in the hip pocket of WRs, jamming them at the line then staying right on top of them. It's because they were allowed to.
The game changed and completion % went up somewhere between 5 and 10%.
On another note I don't think you give enough credence to the Buffalo blizzard game and the Cincinnati wind bowl to DAs declining statistics. There were real things effecting DAs ability to get the ball from point A to point B. JMHO
But overall we're of the same opinion. Let's see how it plays out!
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Tab, please... At least read the posts before firing off about how stupid comparing the two QBs is. Here, in big bold letters for you and everyone else who refuses to read what I actually wrote:
I WASN'T COMPARING THEM.
It was a commentary on the blind irrationality of fans. As I've said, TWICE NOW, I'll be happy to compare them in seven years or so.
But if you want to take a look at their second years, (PLAYING) be my guest. In '86, Bernie probably had his best year, declining in most categories, particularly wins and losses, every year after. It can be argued he had more weapons at his disposal. It can also be argued he had a better D, giving him more time on the field.
Overall, I'd say Bernie wins that year because of his W/L record and the trip to the playoffs. DA gets the edge in TDs (32 -vs- 17).
But this means nothing. I'm more interested in seeing a body of work over 7-8 years before I compare them.
Personally, for me, Bernie was nothing but a disappointment who couldn't get past Denver because of his shortcomings and physical limitations. But he's a hero in Cleveland because he took us to the playoffs four years in a row. Somehow, for most, his mental acuity and touch outweigh his lack of mobility and poor sidearm delivery. Well, I haven't forgotten those AFC Championship games, those losses, or all the cringing I did whenever I saw a ball get smacked right back at him. He didn't improve over the course of his years, his production fell off, he never got more mobile or improved his technique, yet here in year two, we're supposed to be concerned about DA's arc and his touch, even though he is working to improve all areas of his game.
Frankly, as I've stated repeatedly, I think the whole thing is silly and irrational and that was my point.
JMHO
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Someone gets a little touchy when BS is called on his BS. Quote:
24 out of the top 25 QBs in 2007 had 60+ completion pct. in 1990 only 3 out of all of the rated QBs.
OK .. you can have Jay Cutler, John Kitna, Matt Hasselback, Vince Young, Damon Huard, Joey Harrington, Brian Griese, Kyle Boller, and Tavaris Jackson ...........
And I'll take Derek Anderson.
Deal?
If completion percentage is so all mighty, and the end all-be all of QBing ..... then Charlie Frye was a great QB for us ......... or was 2 years ago also outside of the Era of the all important completion percentage?
Now ... as far as my "examples" .... is was BS vs BS ...... so don't call BS on my BS without first examining your own BS first.
Quote:
Did I hurt your feelings... now we get the insults.
Not at all .... and I didn't once insult you. Your argument was conjecture and opinion wrapped up in fact's clothing. That doesn't make it fact anymore than sheep's clothing makes a wolf a sheep.
Quote:
"Last year, Anderson threw more TD passes than every other Browns QB in history with the exception of Brian Sipe."
True our Offense was awesome and we did get to play a bevy of defenses that simply were not that good...With EXCEPTION to...fill in the blank.
btw - there are no EXCEPTIONS when you state EVERY QB IN HISTORY...its an oxymoron statement.
Our offense also was not a "west coast" style offense. It was an attacking, down the field offense. That is a lower completion style of passing offense by its very nature.
You also can only play the teams you are scheduled to play. Our schedule automatically got "easier" based on the fact that we beat teams! It's amazing how that works. We also destroyed some teams. Guess what .... that makes their defensive rankings go down.
Oh ... and if we're going into grammar/spelling smack, I should mention that your earlier "digressing" made no .... ah never mind.
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You see I do have an open mind and so do most of those questioning DA...its funny cause the big cry of those backing DA is we hate him and have blinders and can't see. We do see everything you did. 29 TDs 10 wins...but its not as impressive as you think. Thats like me saying Ruben Droughns is a great RB cause we never had a 1,000 yd rusher in like 24 years. its nice but not a revelation.
No .... it would be more akin to having a guy damn near breaking Jim Brown's franchise rushing record ...... and you saying that "He's just simply not that good because of ....... "
Anyway ...... I'm gonna enjoy watching one helluva prolific offense this year ..... and you can lament whatever it is you want to.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Couch always had a respectable percentage.
Too bad everything else about the guy sucked.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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"Personally, for me, Bernie was nothing but a disappointment who couldn't get past Denver because of his shortcomings and physical limitations."
I won't even bother to copy the rest...this is your argument.
To make DA look better throw Bernie in the mud. What a total miscount of the history of this franchise and of Bernie's contributions. Bernie had better weapons give me a break...we'll see how many of Bernies weapons made it to the HOF...Ozzie past his prime? And we'll see in the long run how many of DA's weapons make the HOF, I can honestly think of 4 right off the bat who have a shot. BE, KW2, JT and Jamal Lewis. But ya you go right ahead and revise history now ALL IN THE NAME of defending DA You are going from rediculous to ludicrous to fantasy land. How do I even debate this.
I'll just put your revisionist history lesson out there for all to see and let them make up their own minds. But this protectionism of DA is going a little too far 
Btw...what happen to giving me a little football. Yeah Otay DA is way better than Bernie ever was. Next you'll tell me he is more accurate too.
Umgababelievable
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Thanks guys...she's doing better ..just a long process..I'll talk more when I feel she's o.k..
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I just saw that......sorry to hear than buddy. Hope all is fine.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Thanks I'm not on here much because this work computer has a firewall thats blocks the website..I have to cancel the setting to log on..blah..
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