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j/c
I'll leave all the talk about new moves and such for another time. So far, we just haven't seen enough of the D#1's to know how Wimbley's performance will be. They've played all of- what? 1-2 periods of football this preseason. That just ain't enough to tell squat.
I do think the new beef on the line will help free him up a bit more and give him more one-on-one situations to work with. He's got great natural gifts that can't/won't be explioted until the D truly gels and CONSISTENT pressure is generated by the middle.
I look for Kam to be only marginally effective for the first 1-2 games, as teams are going to make the front 3 earn the respect and double-teams. Until then, look for them to game plan him the same way they did last year. When they have to start respecting what Rogers, Williams and Da Smiffs bring, look for Kam's sack/hurry/pressure count to rise.
just "big picture" stuff from me at the present... not enough data for details yet.
But no... it's still too early to call the entire "Wimbley Experiment" a failure... the lab didn't even have all its test equipment in place until this Summer.
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I find it a little odd that our best defensive player last year is being called a failed experiment.
What does that make our defense? A gigantic failure or a catastrophic failure?
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I can certainly understand your concern, he hasn't shown us much in terms off all the he's supposedly done to improve and get another move or two. I know this is an exaggeration, but it seemed like every time I keyed on him this preseason, he was either getting owned, rendered ineffective or just missing. Even so, I'm not willing to give up on the guy until I see how he does with the new line. Of course, he's going to be facing better teams this year so even if puts up average production, people will be calling him a bust. 
I really wonder how much our pass D has killed us this preseason, and I hope we're just playing loose coverage on purpose and not getting purely toasted. Unfortunately one can't watch coverages over the television camera angles. For all i know we're playing basic soft coverage. I couldn't help but think we were a half second away from a sack multiple times this past game. MNF was a different story, but we were without Rogers that game.
I've said it a billion times in this thread and I'll say it again...I may be jumping to conclusions, but Hall NEEDS to play on passing downs. Watching Hall Williams Rogers and Wimbley rush was like watching poetry in motion. Rogers and Williams collapsed the middle while Wimbley and Hall pressured the edges IN UNISON (which I can't emphasize enough because too often last year it seemed like Peek or McGinest were a step or two behind Wimbley...not to mention the interior of the line got ZERO push...that was HUGE for why Wimbley's sack totals dropped).
Time will tell but I think we'll see a greatly improved rush this year...now, whether or not we can cover long enough remains to be seen.
I'm not being a Wimbley apologist, I'd love to see him do something other than his damn dip move, but hey, if the QB can't step up in the pocket, he's gonna get there, and if he rolls out, again I'm PURPOSELY JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS, but Hall should be right there with Wimbley on the other side because he has the same speed Wimbley has which McGinest simply lacks nowadays. (Peek is a wild card...I'd love to see how much better he'll play if he's healthy vs. last year)
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Time will tell but I think we'll see a greatly improved rush this year...now, whether or not we can cover long enough remains to be seen.
The point of a good pass rush is that corners don't have to cover very long. Personally, I think the corners need to play tighter and be more physical at the line. (They could just be playing soft because it's preseason, but you play how you practice, so this has me concerned because they're playing like they expect to have to cover for three seconds or more.) The idea of a pass rush is to rush the passer and either sack him or force him to throw before he wants to while the corners (if they're playing tight and physical) have either disrupted the timing of the route, rerouted the receiver or are still tight on their man. Give a QB 3 seconds to throw and a receiver will be open and the QB will probably complete a pass.
The question is, can our five guys out man the starting O-lines of good teams? Rogers looks like he can. Williams still needs to learn his job and Robaire needs to be more consistent. On the edge, the LBs need to beat their men consistently to get to, or hurry the QB, and I think that is the concern here. Unless there is nowhere to go, a good QB will find the soft spot and either step up or over to buy time to complete the pass, or just take off running.
If Wimbley is always going to the outside, LTs will continue to force him upfield, or shove him down on his face when he tries his dip move. Either way, he is out of the play and the QB has room to maneuver. Wimbley needs a good inside move and he needs to be able to "out-physical" the LTs from time to time, driving them back into the QB. With those three moves, LTs won't know what to expect. Wimbley needs to read and react, countering their moves, but if he's always going to the outside, they can keep him out of the play all day long.
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I think it's more give and take than your making it. Yes the point of a good rush is to make it so the DB's don't have to cover very long. But likewise, if DB's can't cover it doesn't matter how good the rush is, and if your DB's can't cover man on man, you can't blitz as often or as confidently. (I realize front four pressure is ideal, but one of the beautiful things about the Giants' D last year was they not only could rush with their front four, but they blitzed very, VERY often, bringing impossible to block pressure.) IMO that was the case against Detroit. I was dare I say impressed with our rush, but we left guys wide open in the secondary. Granted, we missed both our starting safeties. Maybe they give us that extra half second.
I too am concerned about how we'll look against good O-lines. I'd have to believe that given the sum of our parts we have, the whole will look competitive. Rogers looks like an absolute monster, and I keyed on him mostly in that game. I still haven't seen enough of Williams to gauge but I trust the football people on this board (Vers, wherever you are) who have gushed over him. I really don't think Wimbley is as bad as some are saying he is. He's not a bust by any sense of the word, he's the only guy on our D that offensive coordinators gameplanned against last year. The main wildcard is opposite Wimbley...and so far I love what I see out of Hall. Like I said, he seemed to match Wimbley in terms of speed. Roethlisberger won't be able to outrun Hall like he did McGinest.
Speaking of Roethlisberger...we should be spending a lot of time in his backfield this year...Rogers and Williams should eat their interior alive and hopefully whoever we have at LOLB will make Willie Colon cry like a sick puppy (cuz he's no good himself). Their only lineman worth a sneeze is Marvel Smith, and IIRC he had his hands full with Wimbley in the past.
Last edited by Ammo; 08/25/08 06:30 PM.
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I don't think it has failed yet. This offseason he got his support DL that he needed in Rogers. Now, I believe he is missing one more supporting player to bring attention off him and that is a GOOD MLB; not the mediocracy that we've seen the past 2 seasons. Imagine what would open up for Wimbley if we had a Ray Lewis type of guy striking fear into the hearts of opposing offenses.
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Quote:
I find it a little odd that our best defensive player last year is being called a failed experiment.
What does that make our defense? A gigantic failure or a catastrophic failure?
While subtle in nature, there is a difference between calling Wimbley a failed experiment and the experiment a failure.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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would i like to see Wombley be more dominant?...hello?...but my problem with regards to Wimbley is his position in our scheme...
i like the 3-4, but you negate a (if not THE) major advantage of the scheme when you rush the same 4 guys from the same 4 positions almost every down...they don't move him around, and hald the time he's in the 3-point stance, so you know he's very likely the 4th rusher...
while i don't like that about our scheme, DC's right...the coaches see what they see and know what they know, which is a heck of a lot more than us...even the self-proclaimed gurus on the board...
Browns fans are born with it...
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This year Wimbley needs to play (that doesn't mean more sacks) more consistently. He's clearly the best pass rushing option, but shame on the Browns for not developing a solid pass rusher other than Wimbley.
First thing KW has to do is become more stout against the run..he tends to either get sealed to the inside or he overruns the play..
Second thing the Browns need to do is move him around regardless of the OLB on the strong side..move them around..stop allowing the offense to locate him so easily..
I agree the Browns need to develop another pass rusher..I think Hall is going to be that player..
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I think you have some thing for calling for a bust on a high pick too soon...lol 
Wimbley has consistently improved since drafted and making the transition to the 3-4 stand up LB. I know his STATS went down last season. But he was the only pass rush we had...and that was definitely there. So far this season I have seen him do one thing only...Bull rush? Maybe he's just working on that. I haven't seen him take the edge...I don't see this mythic rushing up the field too far described by some detractors...that was his first season.
Yes, I too wish to have seen more Impact from him especially when Rogers has been there. Keep in mind he goes one on one with each teams Best, Biggest, Athletic OLman...every play! As long as he keeps getting better. And according to you PEEN with your judgment of our 4 qtrs of play in the mellow yellow Pre-season he has digressed...Yeah thats right. Time to call him a failure  Totally rediculous...totally!
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I finally got a chance to see the game today and for the life of me I don't understand what the problem is with Wimbley.  Two plays in the first half he made erroes on. Just two from what I can see. The first was on a run up the middle and he tried to come in and hit the pile. The runner was able to bounce outside of him and gain 10 or so. The other was the TD run. He looked very bad trying to make the tackle.
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I don't know if the Wimbley expirement is a failure or not but I am wondering. In fact Iám wondering about the Willie expirement, The Davis and DQ expirement. It will tell us yea or nay after we see how they play with a good Dline in front of them.
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Just Clickin,
How can anyone say that Wimbley is the failed experiment when the biggest experiment of all is DQ??? That experiment is going terrible right now. Yes, having a larger NT will help him but how many times do we here or see him over-pursuing, not getting off of blocks..etc! I think unless we get some real talent at the inside backer position, we will continue to have problems. Give Wimbley another backer who can rush, he will be fine!
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yep, I know he had a bad game...I was not too kind to him in the What I saw thread. And as far as a pass rush all I've seen really is a Bull rush as if he's trying to get better at it???
But I saw improvement last season from his first. I'm not going to write him off like some have tried here cause he had a flat Pre-season game or two. According to that theory our WHOLE TEAM is a bust and we should start rebuilding AGAIN
Sorry but I ain't buying...and I got to see a lot more retardation of his skills before I start saying ...ooops
Do I think he's a guy we can build a D around. No - that was Merriman as I preached to all that would listen. He's been progressing and is solid - he needs to be surrounded with more talent and so far his preseason he's been very mellow and hasn't impressed...but a Mistake no.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
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GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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yep, I know he had a bad game...I was not too kind to him in the What I saw thread. And as far as a pass rush all I've seen really is a Bull rush as if he's trying to get better at it???
I was only talking about his run defense. I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to his pass rushing. He was stunting some, and using his speed rush. I don't know if he has worked on any different moves.
I have to rewatch every play to death to see what I am missing. I focused on Wimbley on every run play. He is shedding blocks, and he isn't taking himself out of running plays like in the past.
He is still going to make mistakes. I think the bad preseason games is causing a lot of hand wringing. This wouldn't even be an issue if we weren't getting killed. Our run defense has been stout in the preseason. Will it translate to a good run defense when they start playing for keeps? I don't know.
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While subtle in nature, there is a difference between calling Wimbley a failed experiment and the experiment a failure.
It's official. You've spent too much time with attorneys.
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Quote:
Quote:
While subtle in nature, there is a difference between calling Wimbley a failed experiment and the experiment a failure.
It's official. You've spent too much time with attorneys.
LOL.
Maybe so, but there is.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I didn't know there were any experiments, I just hope they play together and work together as a team. Another question might be, has the defense that doesn't blitz enough been an experiment that has failed.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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I think the experiment that Peen is referring to the switch of Wimbley from DE in College to OLB in the Pros..
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An idea to float here...Wimbley's biggest issue right now is run defense (despite last year's sagging sack numbers). Best move might be to start putting Leon Williams in more next to him at RILB to help cover up some of Wimbley's issues with the run.
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Personally, I get the feeling that this is being blown out of whack here.. The guys making this major switch from DE to OLB, then it's from the College game to the Pros and in each of his three years he's had a different line to get used to. And to top it off, he's never had a person on the other side that scared anyone. so the attention is always on him. Without a doubt, I get the feeling we are overreacting.
I'm betting that he will erase all doubts as to this "experiment" in the coming months.
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What I think is odd is his rookie season he had no one worth a dang around him and he produced like mad. The talent around him has increased, yet his production hasn't. I am hopeful for him still being a productive pro though, but he keeps making the same types of mistakes.
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The guys making this major switch from DE to OLB, then it's from the College game to the Pros
It is Year 3, not Year 1... I feel that argument is no longer valid at all. The players that live up to their draft status in the top half of the first round don't take that long.
DeMarcus Ware & Shawne Merriman are two very recent examples.... BUT, they also had/have established fatties in front of them, something we haven't had.
It is too early to really grade him, but we DEFINITELY should see what we're gonna get from him this year.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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What I think is odd is his rookie season he had no one worth a dang around him and he produced like mad. The talent around him has increased, yet his production hasn't. I am hopeful for him still being a productive pro though, but he keeps making the same types of mistakes.
Now, did he "produce like mad" in his run defense in his rookie season, too? If he did, and then he suddenly just dropped off the face of the Earth in year 2 regarding run defense, then I see some big concern for worry.
But, if he only "produced like mad" in his pass rush, but then teams game-planned for him last year (and only him), that's something else entirely.
JMHO
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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It is Year 3, not Year 1... I feel that argument is no longer valid at all.
Well geez, turn me over your knee and spank me why don't ya 
Purp,, Granted, that argument isn't valid if you look only at it,, if you look at the ENTIRE comment I made, I think it's more valid...
But then again, it's only my opinion...
I still think this is pre mature worry....
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Glad to see some of you are starting to understand the question rather than come on here screaming at me about calling Wimbley a bust.
What Purp says may be true, it might be early to make a final judgment, but it isn't to soon to discuss the possibility.
As he said, other guys have made the transition in a year or two.
This is a big year for Wimbley.
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This is a big year for Wimbley.
I'll grant you that.. this is a year that he should, all things being equal, jump out and be a stud OLB..
For the first time, he's got all the stuff going his way.. what appears to be an improved line, 3rd year in the same system, etc,,,, this should be the year.
Again, I don't think he will disappoint us. JMO however.
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Oh, the other things absolutely make sense, but as a Top 15 Overall pick entering his 3rd year... the absolute LAST thing we should be hearing anyone try to float is that he is still adjusting. The switch from DE to OLB and making the jump from college to the Pro's has nothing to do with the other things you mentioned. They are things that SHOULD NOT be an issue in any regard at this stage.
Flat out, it is Year 3 and he has the talent in front of and around him... there should be no questions left to answer after this season.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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.. " Again, I don't think he will disappoint us. " .. There you go " Thinking " again !
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Point blank he has improved over his first two seasons....possibly for some his stats did not improve and think the "experiment" is over.
Which I really don't understand the use of that term in the first place. College DE's have been used more as a standard for OLB in the 3-4 not as the "experiment"
And in the rare moments where Wimbley has put his hand down (usually when we go into some form of a 4 man DL) I like him better in the 2 point stance.
He's made some mistakes in the Run D but overall has gotten more consistent and efficient.
JMHO
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There you go " Thinking " again !
It's a nasty habit of mine,, sorry, I'll try to refrain in the future
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ammo, the steelers' line has one good player--C Justin Hartwig. I don't think Colon is the Center anymore--I think they moved him to G. But I could be wrong. Maybe christyk or steelsapper can correct me.
anyone know how Faneca's doing with the Jets?
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ammo, the steelers' line has one good player--C Justin Hartwig. I don't think Colon is the Center anymore--I think they moved him to G. But I could be wrong. Maybe christyk or steelsapper can correct me.
anyone know how Faneca's doing with the Jets?
Colon was never the center, he's the RT.
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Oh, the other things absolutely make sense, but as a Top 15 Overall pick entering his 3rd year... the absolute LAST thing we should be hearing anyone try to float is that he is still adjusting. The switch from DE to OLB and making the jump from college to the Pro's has nothing to do with the other things you mentioned. They are things that SHOULD NOT be an issue in any regard at this stage.
Flat out, it is Year 3 and he has the talent in front of and around him... there should be no questions left to answer after this season.
I agree.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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