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So what you're saying is that the only way to be successful is to hire someone who was a head coach before?
When was the last time we hired someone who was a head coach somewhere else?
I don't think we have since Paul Brown, and it's bitten us in the ass every time.
You have someone out there whose been a successful head coach somewhere else, probably the hottest commodity on the coaching market if he wants to get back into coaching.
If RAC continues making me throw my hat on the floor in anger over boneheaded coaching decisions, I'm all for someone I know has been successful somewhere else and could bring that mentality here.
Everyone loves Singletary, but the dude hasn't even been a coordinator yet.
Last edited by Ammo; 09/15/08 09:45 PM.
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Well, how did Cowher ever get a head coaching job in the first place, then?
Or Jeff Fisher?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Well, how did Cowher ever get a head coaching job in the first place, then?
Or Jeff Fisher?
Or Marty?
Or Sam?
Or Collier?
you had a good run Hank.
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Well, how did Cowher ever get a head coaching job in the first place, then?
Or Jeff Fisher?
Here's my point.
We've been doing it ever since our inception. Hell we've never had a head coach with previous pro head coaching experience!
But we haven't won a title since 1964...why do we keep following the same formula?
I can't believe some people think Cowher is actually a BAD idea. Only way it is is if Savage is replaced by an awful personnel guy.
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Ammo, are you willing to go on record and say that past results are a guarantee of future results?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Ammo, are you willing to go on record and say that past results are a guarantee of future results?
No because I don't know the factors yet, he's not Parcells. The game hasn't passed him by yet (Parcells can still buy the groceries though), he CAN coach. That much I know. Whether or not he has a personnel guy who can give him talent, I don't know.
BUT, if Cowher is paired with a good personnel guy, he WILL have success here. You can write that down.
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I think Cowher would be mosts first choice...but then again i'm just a "knee-jerk", "chicken little", "panic", because I actually stand on one side of the fence.
See the funny thing is, there aresome who think that RAC isn't the problem, yetttttt won't say much about it...they just go after the "knee-jerks".
If Romeo doesn't get it together soon, it won't be a knee-jerk, it won't be panic, it will be real, RAC will be gone, and rightfully so.
ONLY IF RAC doesn't improve.....you can't just let the coach loose his locker room and continue to make every excuse in the book, blame injuries, your tough schedule, and failed "execution", let him continue to play around with the futile 3-4 defense.......at some point the buc stops....its not knee-jerking....its accountability.
Either we a good team and are done with stupid excuses, using every last bit of adversity for a pass, and except losing because of imagined progression. Most of the RAC homers only want to talk about last year, guess what? Its 2008...last year doesnt help us...now we are playing real good teams and we arent sneaking up on people. Its gut check time, we are seeing what this team is made of, so far it looks like a weak team, soft is a better word.
Progression??? Better players and a weak schedule last year took us beyond expectations which was awesome for everyone, but it wasn't progression.....progression is when you take roughly same team(last years team) and take that talent and get more out of it(this years team) against the better teams. Us beating the bums does not show improvement over last year.
Then again the RAC homers wanna give all the credit to him winning 10 games, but then when it comes to us failing to beat Pit.....or any good team for that matter...its execution. 
Sure we have holes....every team does...sure we don't execute all the time, and yes we have problems personel wise. But whos defense is out there?
Botch's? No.
Just once while RAC is here, I'd like to see this team rise up and PLAY OVER its head instead of always status quo!! When the pressure is on, and the other team is better than us talent wise...stand up and fight.
Once I'd like to see us be the one more pre-pared, and the other team look lost..it hasn't happened since hes been here....when the pressure is on this team follows RAC's lead...deer in headlights.......when the pressure is on against a good team or Pit .....whoever.....the discipline isn't there, the gameplanning isn't there, the wrong players are on the field and the same result has been happening.
We lose.
That has to change NOW.....
It's not knee-jerking atalll.....its just patience wearing off cuz the same crap that was happening when he started is still happening....losing against teams with the same or better talent...nearly everytime.
It won't be the "RAC knee-jerkers" it will be Philliam Savagaeno...doing the talkin at the presser if RAC don't get this team ready RIGHT NOW.
At the end of the day most NFL teams mirror their head coach, thats happening, AND in the NFL you will never have a complete team, your coachin staff has use the talent given and get the most of of them, the good coaching staff will take a team and make them overachieve....play better than their talent level....that is not happening to the zillizoneth degree....we are a div. II college team compared to the Cowboys....a good team(like the eagles tonight) will atleast show up and fight.....we were beat before we walked on the field.
Maybe i'm way off but ya know what????
I'll try to do better next time, and maybe I can post alittle better...I'll do my best...I'll try.... 
The buc tops here, no more freaking excuses win now RAC, show something to everyone, get this team to play 60 min, don't try.......do...I don't want hear the right things from RAC, the players etc. I want to see it from RAC and co.
I've been, like most around, a bleed Brown and Orange fan, and this team is loaded with talent, even has on defense thanks to the savior Phil Savage...we see flashes here and there, some of them are proven fomr other teams...but in the NFL the window is short, how many years can we keep these weapons on offense?
Can we improve our talent every year?
The time really is now...not 2009 or 2010...its impossible to say whether or not we will be better or worse talent wise....RAC has the talent to win...maybe its admitting his 3-4 sucks and switch to 4-3...46 defense...I dunno but the talent is here and I tired of losing......Its alot easier to accpet losing when you know your team has nobody but we know theres talent on this team, I think theres more on defense than we know...we show it against bad teams...we just can;t handle any pressure and we are under prepared more often than not.
That window can close quick...RAC has to win now...or we find somebody that can...its that simple...its not kneejerking.
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Quote:
Whether or not he has a personnel guy who can give him talent, I don't know.
But didn't you say that Savage is good? Now we don't know if he'd have a personnel guy who can give him talent?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Quote:
Quote:
Whether or not he has a personnel guy who can give him talent, I don't know.
But didn't you say that Savage is good? Now we don't know if he'd have a personnel guy who can give him talent?
I don't know if he'd keep Savage or not.
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I will go on the record that having past results in any job will benefit the person attempting that job again. All other things being equal give me the guy with experience every single time.
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To play Devil's advocate.....most "experienced" guys were also fired...with a few exceptions. Do you take a guy that has been terminated because of lack of success or give someone else a chance that has shown the potential to succeed? Not a sarcastic question, simply floating that out there.
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To play Devil's advocate.....most "experienced" guys were also fired...with a few exceptions. Do you take a guy that has been terminated because of lack of success or give someone else a chance that has shown the potential to succeed? Not a sarcastic question, simply floating that out there.
I'd rather take a guy who walked away on his own terms after more than a decade of success. But that's just me.
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I have failed many times only to try again and do much better.
IMO you learn more from failure than success if you want to find the answers.
Put two guys with equal ability, one who has failed and one who has never tried....give me the guy who has failed.
Now obviously there are talented people that once you identify them, you hand them the reigns. Everyone has to start sometime. Me...I love experience.
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He walked away because he didn't get the cash he wanted. I guess that's technically on his own terms, but not really. Plus, the Steelers haven't been exactly dismal with a first time head coach since his depaarture. 
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He walked away because he didn't get the cash he wanted. I guess that's technically on his own terms, but not really. Plus, the äteelers haven't been exactly dismal with a first time head coach since his depaarture.
I'm aware.
Be honest...if Romeo were to be canned, who would you want?
To me there are two logical choices, after three failed experiments with guys who have never been head coaches before, and I want the guy with the ring and two Superbowl appearances.
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Coach,
That is a good question and there are some variables that will help make that decision. If the coach was undermined by management or lack of acquiring talent, then you should give him another look. How does he work with the players, his management style..etc. All that goes into picking a guy no matter if he is brand new to head coaching or not. The only real percentage that seems to hold true is that the college coaches that try to come directly into the pros, without any prior work in the NFL as an assistant, is doomed!!
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Well, IF RAC is let go, I do have a personal choice for the job....however, I would have to get out of my current contract. Seriously, I'm not saying Cowher's a bad choice. I'm just looking at both sides of the coin to have debate. I would say Cowher would be a good choice. I also think that luring a Jeff FIsher here would be a good choice, too. You know who I'd REALLY like, though. I would LOVE to get a proven head coach that's reputation is not only that of a Super Bowl winner, but that of a QB guru that develops great QBs. I'd really be excited to see Mike Holmgren come here. I'll duck now 
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Well, IF RAC is let go, I do have a personal choice for the job....however, I would have to get out of my current contract.
Seriously, I'm not saying Cowher's a bad choice. I'm just looking at both sides of the coin to have debate. I would say Cowher would be a good choice. I also think that luring a Jeff FIsher here would be a good choice, too. You know who I'd REALLY like, though. I would LOVE to get a proven head coach that's reputation is not only that of a Super Bowl winner, but that of a QB guru that develops great QBs. I'd really be excited to see Mike Holmgren come here. I'll duck now
I wouldn't mind that either, quite frankly.
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I used to be a RAC defender but I've officially had it.
I know the players love the guy and I know they'd do anything for him...
I agree with you totally 100% on the first part.
As for the second part, does the "doing anything for him" include winning a friggin' game, or putting together a quality effort? I don't care if they'd pick up his dry cleaning for him or watch his kids, I want something on the field!
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/GmuEd.gif) "One man's Bum is another man's Hobo" - Waterdawg
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Absolutely, a team should be committed to any coach they're playing under. That said, I am sure some players are becoming aware of Romeo's game management gaffes as of late. They'll all support him publicly, but these guys aren't stupid; they want to have the best chance to win the game. When your coach is putting your team in statistically unfavorable situations in terms of clock and points, you have to start getting frustrated as a player. Especially guys like Winslow who are fiery in nature to begin with; if this continues, the players are going to stop believing in their coach.
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RAC needs to motivate his players these next two weeks because if we lose to either Cincy or Baltimore or both then people will definately be calling for his head.
Edwards, Anderson and Lewis need to step it up on offense. Our linebackers need to step it up on defense, especially Wimbley.
If Anderson doesn't play well against Baltimore or Cincy then its time for Quinn to come in. This is the NFL (which stands for Not For Long)!
I'm getting fed up with Romeo's lack of emotion on the sideline. He almost looks lost at times.
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Wow, if that lack of emotion bothers you, be glad you never had to endure those terrible coaches Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Paul Brown, and Vince Lombardi.
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Wow, if that lack of emotion bothers you, be glad you never had to endure those terrible coaches Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Paul Brown, and Vince Lombardi.
Dude- don't you know that they ALL would have been better coaches if they'd sprayed a little saliva on the sideline...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Wow, if that lack of emotion bothers you, be glad you never had to endure those terrible coaches Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Paul Brown, and Vince Lombardi.
Oh the lack of emotion that characterized the coaching and sideline presence of Vince Lombardi. Good one.
Let me know the next time you have an Open Mike in your town. You're hilarious!
Oh I can't wait!!!!
How about the speed of Kosar? or the sportsmanship of Rodney Harrison?
How about the stoicism of Bob Knight?
I love it! I want access into this anti-world of yours...just for a day or two. I could go to Haiti and live it up like a high roller!!!
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i don't have the time, unfortunately, to read all of the comments, but I've said before that I like RAC because:
1. He was the right coach to build a foundation of team and fundamentals from the disaster we had with butch, and that showed in wins finally last year. They believe in him and he is steady.
2. He isn't the right coach to win a super bowl. I wish he was, but he's not. He doesn't have the "something" needed to make those big decisions in the moment that great coaches do. He's too safe all the time.
He should last this year, maybe next year, unless he really screws up. He's laid a good foundation. Hopefully, he'll just retire and won't have to be fired. Unless he can wake up and fix his losing tendencies.
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Personally, I worry more about how the team gameplans, executes, adjusts, and makes decisions instead of whether or not said coach shows emotion. But that's just me.
And for the record, you can NOT can him now. The Rams haven't even fired Scott Linehan yet, and the Raiders haven't even fired Lane Kiffin yet (who I feel is going to be a good coach someday, he's just in a no-win situation in Oakland).
Last edited by Ammo; 09/16/08 12:32 AM.
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But we haven't won a title since 1964...why do we keep following the same formula?
The bad formula that the Browns have followed has been not so much that of hiring first time head coaches. But it is that of not giving their Head Coach his five years to rebuild the team into the playoffs. Everytime a Browns coach was given 5 years his team went to the playoffs. Everytime a coach was fired before his 5 years it created another rebuild of sorts and prolonged the possibility. I think the only exception was Bud Carson who inherited a team who just came out of the Champoinship game. (Remember, Marty wasn't fired because he couldn't win.)
What needs to be understood about this season so far is that the Browns got absolutely nothing done this preseason. With all the injuries, many to key players who didn't play much at all in the preseason, they were unable to build any consistancy and timing during the preseason. Along with missing the preseason games those players also missed the practices. There was simply no time in the preseason
How does one expect the team to be prepared when so many players didn't practice or play? Somehow I hear a lot of fans crying "no excuses". That's easy to say. But there are realistic reasons why the team came out of the gate rusty, sloppy, inconsistant and bumbling. Had our first two games been against creampuff teams we may have pulled a win out of at least one of them if not both.
But to start the season against two of the best teams in the NFL it's understandable that going into those games unprepared by a lack of practice for key players (and injuries keeping other key players out) the Browns were destined for a slow/bad start.
This is not the healthy, well prepared team we saw go 10-6 last season. The first few games of the regular season is going to have to be warm-up that was supposed to happen in the preseason. To me it's really not that hard to see the reality of it. At the same time, fans who cry "excuses" are just not looking at what has transpired and still demand that the team fulfull their expectations regardless of the circumstances.
Those same fans cry out that RAC has been given the talent to succeed. However, they conviently overlook Wimbly playing with a bad groin, Antwan Peek out for the season, Pool missing half the preseason and the first game with a concussion, Sean Jones out with a knee for the second game, Robaire Smith now out indefinately, Stallworth having not yet played a game and Cory Williams has been playing hurt since training camp. Anderson, Edwards, Lewis, Hadnot, and Cribbs all missing considerable preseason and practice time. Cribbs obviously playing hurt and not able to be the playmaker he's always been.
But the unsatisfied fans cry out: There you go RAC, there's your talent. You should now be able to win vs. two of the best teams in the NFL. No excuses.
#gmstrong
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Very good post. The biggest problem I have his that RAC is a terrible in game coach. Some of the problems last night seemed to be on Chud. DA was constantly looking to the sidelines for guidance in the two minute offense. A lot of valuable time seemed to be lost. I am making an assumption that it is on Chud...It might actually be worse...It might be that DA is simply not trust worthy to make those decisions.
Like I said, I believe it is on Chud. He is very new at calling a game and he will make mistakes. The timeout problems are still on RAC. Why in the hell do you use your last timeout with 2:42 on the clock? If he waits one play he still has a timeout with 2 minutes left.
#gmstrong
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As usual ddubia you bring reason and thought to your posts. Thank you for saying it like it is. I swear to God I wished some posters would get their emotions under control before saying anything. Perhaps then we could have meaningful debate.
I agree 5 years, nothing less. That was the plan going in and I am hopeful that we see it thru to the very end. I can honestly look at this team as can most of the posters on this board and say year 5 is setting itself up to be very very special. I want RAC here, and I want PS here for 5 years after that will see. I believe that RL is commited to the plan, I really wished the fans would commit to. The support of the community for the players and the coaches is critical to thier success. Unfortunately many fans have been waiting for just a minor slip so they could once again place RAC under the bus. It's actually reached the point where anger has replaced reason, I'm embarrassed for those that can't think or see past a lose.
At the end of the day like I said though if I thought throwing RAC under a bus would make the Browns better I would drive the bus. It won't make the Browns better, so I am firmly against it. And I believe PS and RL are too. 5 YEARS, thats the deal.. learn to live with it...
BTTB
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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I guess my problem with RAC, like other posters have said, is that I don't agree with how he handles the in-game coaching. His time management skills have not improved and I just don't agree with his conservative approach to the game.
Now, maybe some of it is on the coordinators. But I see our defense being essentially the same as last year, which leads me to believe that RAC has his hand in that somehow.
That's my problem with him. It isn't the talent level or injuries. It's the coaching aspect of it.
Now, am I calling for his head? No. But I will be if I don't see some marked improvement in Baltimore and Cincinnati, two very winnable games.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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One of the better posts I've read on this subject Dub, Thanks,........... Now can you explain Edwards Stone Hands   Seriously, good post.
Born and breed with OSU, App. State alumni, but bleed orange and brown.
Go ARMY......Beat Navy!!!!!!
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The injuries are a bogus excuse....lots of teams have injuries...Pats Colts Eagles Titans...hmmm why arent they 0-2....how can a team with holes, loss of talent not fall to pieces on the field? Not just thier backups or #2's their starters....
Leadership, better preperation, players confidence in thier coach,.....no I forgot we played good teams...well why in the world should we expect to beat a good team....especially with our recent record against winners.
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J/C
I see it like this. I have seen enough of Romeo that it is time to make a change. The guy just isn't getting the job done. Romeo is a good X's and O's guy. The players like him, but that doesn't make him a good Head Coach.
Romeo's primary problem is he has "failed" to motivate his players and to keep them motivated. If you look at a Bill Cowher team, a Marty Schotenheimer team, or an Andy Reid team, you will notice something different.
Those teams, their players come out "fired up" each and every sunday. Thise guys play 110% all the time for the full 60 minutes, they play with fire, swagger, and attitude...that is lacking here.
The way your players play is a reflection of your coach, and the Browns play too soft and without enough Energy. Cowher and Marty are 2 of the Best motivators in the game. There was a huge difference in the Chargers players demeanor and energy on the filed when Marty came there, it was like a whole new team, I still say the chargers were moronic for firing Marty..that was just a dumb move
I have this feeling Cowher is just biding his time. Cowher "wants" to come here. He originally wanted the Browns job when we fired Marty and they wouldn't hire him because Modell didn't have a brain. The Head coaching job of the Browns is what Cowher has always wanted. It also gives Cowher added motivation to really stick it to the Rooney's who thought he wasn't worth anything.
if we have a losing season here, say 6-10, 5-11...i think you have to make a switch. even 7-9 depending on the circumstances, it would be a regression, we added more talent and win less games is not justifieable to keep him around.
the basic formula is this:
we won 10 last year
Strength of schedule is tougher this year than last
in turn we added more talent to our DL and WR to offset the increase in strength of schedule
we should "at least" be close to where we were last year. If not...I think you have to go in another direction
I have a feeling RAc is going to fall flat on his face this year, if he does, there will be a change...most likely...it will be Cowher IMO
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GMAB..the dude doesn't need to be fired..the players are not executing the plays..and your pro bowl QB actually looks every similar to the stretch of games late last year..
His reads and tendencies are starting to show..hence the bad picks..he is unable to finish drives..hence the bad throws which are behind the recievers..
Brand-me Edwards is cleary needing a mechanics lesson as his drops are killing the offense..
The D has become more agressive but they are undermanned in the secondary and the LB'ers are only being adequate if not disappearing..
Yeah fire Rac..and leave the problems still on the sideline..
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,077 |
ddub.... Didn't you know? ...this isn't the time or place for a thoughtful, well-reasoned post. Shame on you! If you aren't buying rope or scouting for suitable trees, there's no room for the likes of you in here! Your first paragraph tells the tale of woe that has been the Browns since the 90's. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it... and this is the very first time since '99 that we have a chance to break the cycle. Phil asked the fans to give them 5 years. It's the beginning of Year Four.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 242
1st String
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1st String
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 242 |
While I do agree that some people are overreacting just a little, your "five year" assessment is a bit misleading. The reason coaches are kept around for an extended amount of time is that they're showing progress and improvement. If a coach is taking this team downward in his third or fourth year, he shouldn't be kept around just so he can get to that magical fifth year where he'll make the playoffs. He'll be fired because his team ISN'T going in that direction.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,190
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,190 |
Grading a Coach:
There are 3 basic elements of coaching.
1.) Motivator - Meaning getting the most each player on the team has to give. Understanding what it takes to do that the carrot or stick.
2.) Game Preparation - Providing a plan that gives the team the best opportunity to win each week; and preparing the team to implement that plan.
3.) Game Decisions - Meaning adjustments during the game, clock management, key decisions on 4th down, field goals or TD's, key down and distance decisions on both offense and defense etc, etc.
How has Crennel scored:
Motivator: C+
I believe the players like and respect him. I believe the players want to play and win for him. However the results are inconsistency of effort.
Game Preparation: D
Belichick is the master at this. Romeo does not divise plans to take away what other teams do best. On occasion he does but again not on a consistent basis.
Game Decisions: F
Now in his fourth year with the Browns there are so many examples to site in this area that the list is endless. It is much harder to find and list when he has made good game decisions then to list all the poor ones.
I am not a hater. It would be a bad move to fire him this year. But the facts are clear he is not a good head coach.
At the same time we have an investment in team personnel that I don't think would benefit by making a change at this point. I hope that by season end we have some knowledge of what Brady Quinn can do. So we can make that critical decision at the end of the year.
Savage is the right GM. He is going to have to make a huge decision after this year about Romeo and who would be the best coach for this team.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,770
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,770 |
IMO- RAC was not a major "Savage pick". It is not the "HC Savage wanted". We did not have the talent assembled to "draw" the candidate Savage wanted. So I do NOT believe Savage and RAC are "tied at the hips" in terms of staying or going "together".
Should RAC be fired?
Team doesn't seem prepared.
Doesn't seem motivated
Poor clock management.
Very questionable "in game" coaching decisions.
Now? I believe Savage DOES have enough talent assembled to draw in good coaching talent.
Should RAC go? Ask me at the bye. But so far, I'm leaning towards yes.................
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 |
I wonder what the NY Giants boards looked like last year after week 2, and they lost 2 games.... "There are 3 basic elements of coaching...." Yada Yada yada yada.....
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,770
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,770 |
Note to HBYT, We're not the Giants. Not even in their neighborhood......................by a LONG shot!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum RAC Debate...Stay or Go?
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