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May I assume that Toad's mention of the "boys" will be deleted as mine were as a rumor detrimental to the board's integrity?
Not that I mind, as I actually find nothing wrong with mentioning something that everyone has already heard a hundred times. But, hey, fair is fair......
I also question the sanity of anyone that thinks this team would be better off without one of the few guys that plays like he's got any balls on every play.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Winslow shows his true colors after everyone thought it was behind him. Savage will get rid of Winslow, and I seriously doubt we get much for him. I also doubt Winslow gets much from his new team.
I think we're heading towards this question: If nobody offers a hill-of-beans for Winslow, how long will Savage hold onto him and force him to play?
By now, it sure doesn't look that he's going to get that contract extension  He's signed through 2010.......
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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We’re writing an in-depth item about the Kellen Winslow grievance and arbitration process for SportingNews.com. Until then, we need to revisit something we posted shortly after Winslow landed in the hospital.
There were rumors in the locker room that Winslow had swollen testicles. He has said that he had a staph infection.
Since a staph infection can cause swelling, these two items aren’t mutually exclusive. He could have had a staph infection, and it could have caused swelling in his nether regions.
Moreover, an agent for one Browns player has told a member of the media (who then told us) that the player actually saw the swollen parts, prompting fears among various Browns players that Winslow was contagious.
Apart from the question of whether it was a staph infection is whether Winslow got the infection at the team facility. The team’s frustration with Winslow likely has arisen in part from his presumption that the staph bacteria entered his body as a result of conditions at the team’s facility or at the Cleveland Clinic, even though most of the other Browns players who have developed staph infections had undergone some type of medical procedure.
So while we’re still not officially reporting that Winslow had swollen balls, the fact that Winslow himself says that he had a staph infection is irrelevant to whether or not his center of gravity was a little lower than usual.
Now please go back to enjoying your mid-afternoon snack.
http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/10/23/last-word-until-tomorrow-on-winslow-story/
keep an eye out for that sportingnews.com article tomorrow. hope this post is ok with the refs.
Last edited by dong; 10/23/08 04:51 PM.
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But, hey, fair is fair......
What on God's green earth EVER gave you THAT impression!??
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I think we're heading towards this question: If nobody offers a hill-of-beans for Winslow, how long will Savage hold onto him and force him to play?
Phil will hold on to him until he gets something for him..maybe a 3rd..now he could package him with another body -soon to be named at the end of the season...
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Not a thing, my friend, not a thing..........
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Quote:
Quote:
We’re writing an in-depth item about the Kellen Winslow grievance and arbitration process for SportingNews.com. Until then, we need to revisit something we posted shortly after Winslow landed in the hospital.
There were rumors in the locker room that Winslow had swollen testicles. He has said that he had a staph infection.
Since a staph infection can cause swelling, these two items aren’t mutually exclusive. He could have had a staph infection, and it could have caused swelling in his nether regions.
Moreover, an agent for one Browns player has told a member of the media (who then told us) that the player actually saw the swollen parts, prompting fears among various Browns players that Winslow was contagious.
Apart from the question of whether it was a staph infection is whether Winslow got the infection at the team facility. The team’s frustration with Winslow likely has arisen in part from his presumption that the staph bacteria entered his body as a result of conditions at the team’s facility or at the Cleveland Clinic, even though most of the other Browns players who have developed staph infections had undergone some type of medical procedure.
So while we’re still not officially reporting that Winslow had swollen balls, the fact that Winslow himself says that he had a staph infection is irrelevant to whether or not his center of gravity was a little lower than usual.
Now please go back to enjoying your mid-afternoon snack.
http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/10/23/last-word-until-tomorrow-on-winslow-story/
keep an eye out for that sportingnews.com article tomorrow. hope this post is ok with the refs.
I want it noted that I called this first. 
I said I wonder if Winslow wasn't embarrassed by how he got it, so he tried to lay blame on the Browns organization and they weren't having any of it.
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I'm sure the pieces(however pointy) will be fit together in the puzzle..
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Phil Savage sounds like a petulant child any time he faces criticism in the media.
Is this the guy we want leading this franchise?
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All Pro
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Phil Savage sounds like a petulant child any time he faces criticism in the media.
Is this the guy we want leading this franchise?
I think people hear what they wanna hear. Whiner, leader, whatever, it all depends on the predisposition of the listener, IMO.
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Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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How do you go from being a soilder to crying because your boss didn't show up with daisies? 
Is it too late for a poem? Girls like poems. How bout
Sending flowers, I rarely do
Although I suppose I could try sumptin new
You were our first draft pick
I'm sorry your sick
But you signed a contract now I own you.
By Henry Gibson
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Quote:
Phil Savage sounds like a petulant child any time he faces criticism in the media.
Is this the guy we want leading this franchise?
I think people hear what they wanna hear. Whiner, leader, whatever, it all depends on the predisposition of the listener, IMO.
Seconded.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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There was talk about his value in a trade.......No way a team gives up a #1 for him, especially when they get a look at his medical chart. That knee will probably fail a few teams examinations.....
I agree....that is why I mentioned a 3rd rounder...it may not be that high given the feelings that abound here. Teams may be more inclined to wait it out.
I don't know what sort of offer he may have received for KW before the deadline, but I think Savage has to wish he got a "do over" on the decision not to pull the trigger.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think I got the solution so all these goofs that think B should actually care what they think will be satisfied ....
B ... send me PM with your contacts name and # .... tell him to make himself available at 9:30 tonight ... tell him to expect a call from ...
I've got another idea that doesn't involve you embarassing the hell out of the rest of us.
Those of us who know that what he shares is gold will take it as he is willing to share it and use it to expand our knowledge toward a more informed opinion, and those who are suspicious of his credibility and/or intentions will just lose out on that and be left in the dark where they choose to be.
There, now CoachB can keep his friends in good standing since they will not be coerced to come in contact with you.
#gmstrong
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Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote:
Phil Savage sounds like a petulant child any time he faces criticism in the media.
Is this the guy we want leading this franchise?
Quote:
I think people hear what they wanna hear. Whiner, leader, whatever, it all depends on the predisposition of the listener, IMO.
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Seconded.
Thirded
#gmstrong
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Wow, all this firestorm over little ole me. LOL. Seriously, I am not tooting my own horn, but just in the last week...even in the last DAY, everything I have spoken of is being reported now. Savage even used the almost exact phases that I did. Hmmmm, I must be really great at making things up as a couple of trolls said Sunday.  In all seriousness, I"m sorry but I'm not going to tell anyone who I know in the organization. I word things carefully so that no one will know and so that no one is hurt by what I do share. I tell what I'm comfortable telling. I wil not do more than that. I'm sorry that tere are some that feel the need to know more or want me to verify what I say. First, everything I have posted in the past has been "gold" to borrow Diam's term and is verified within a few days by the media. Don't take my word for it, ask those that have been around since I joined the board. I have never made anything up and have never had the media report anything contrary to what I have shared. That's the most verification you are going to get. As to this situation, I can't reveal more. I will say that the Browns could very well lose the arbitration, though I'm no expert on that. There is a concern because the FO cannot bring up Winslow's condition and cause of it even in the arbitration meeting without Winslow's WRITTEN consent. Winslow may be stupid, but not that stupid. Now, to answer all those that have asked why Phil couldn't just pick up the phone. I will answer this and, yes, it will be vague. Phil didn't call along with many others for a couple of reasons. The first reason is that the coaches had been in contact with him and was keeping Saviage abreast of the situation, just as has been the practice in the past. The second reason is that even if Phil had felt the need to call, he wouldn't have. Because of the sensitive situation it was felt that those closest to Winslow contacting him would make Winslow more comfortable about it. They were trying not to make him feel worse than what he already did. Now, I will add one more thing that is starting to be pretty commonly known in the locker room. Winslow and Savage met, as has ben reported, for quite awhile before Winslow went to the press. The content of the meeting has not been disclosed. I will say this....it wasn't about a lack of phone call or the hospital visit, or Winslow's concern about contracting staph again. It was, though, about WInslow feeling like a piece of "meat" instead of the greatest TE to ever grace the football field with his presence (yes, that last part was sarcasm). It was in that discussion that Winslow wanted to know if he had really been on the trading block. I'm not going to say more than that, but you can take that as you see fit. TO ALL THOSE THAT HAVE PM'd ME. If you asked a question about anything in this situation that I didn't cover above, it means I probably won't comment on it in further detail. If it was about something else, I will PM you when I can.
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Thanks for the info!
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NRTU
Quote:
Jason Cole of Yahoo Sports by way of PFT
WINSLOW APPEAL HEARING MOVED TO TUESDAY
Posted by Mike Florio on October 23, 2008, 6:34 p.m.
We know, we know. We said earlier in the day that we wouldn’t say anything more about Kellen Winslow and/or his possibly previously swollen balls and/or his alleged case of staph infection and/or his suspension for one game and/or the appeal of it until tomorrow.
We lied. (See, Brett. It’s that easy.)
Jason Cole of Yahoo! Sports reports that the hearing on Winslow’s appeal of his suspension, which previously had been expedited, has been delayed until Tuesday, October 28.
It means that Winslow won’t play on Sunday when the Browns face the Jaguars. But Winslow still could get a game check, if the appeal prevails.
Said NFLPA counsel Tom DePaso: “The suspension is clearly disproportionate, unwarranted and excessive given what the player did.”
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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There is a concern because the FO cannot bring up Winslow's condition and cause of it even in the arbitration meeting without Winslow's WRITTEN consent.
That's B.S!  The organization should be able to defend themselves somehow.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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j/c...
Guys, me and Coach have alot of disagreements on this board (mainly over RAC lol). But, his info is solid. Like he's said, everything he's said on this board, has come out in the national media within a few days. If you don't like the info he posts, don't read it.
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Quote:
Quote:
There is a concern because the FO cannot bring up Winslow's condition and cause of it even in the arbitration meeting without Winslow's WRITTEN consent.
That's B.S! The organization should be able to defend themselves somehow.
They can...the Browns have rights as far as Winslows records are concerned....he grants those rights in his contract.
While the Browns can't disclose his records for public record, they can disclose them in a hearing before the NFL office...a closed setting.
I don't have a NFL contract in front of me, but I would imagine a standard clause in all contracts allows the NFL office to review player medical records.....how do they screen for controlled substances??
The Browns aren't going to have to sit impotent as Winslow is able to say what he wants.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Phil Savage sounds like a petulant child any time he faces criticism in the media.
Is this the guy we want leading this franchise?
No, I don't think it is. I know for me personally, it is not. I have grown to like Savage less and less over the years. The defensiveness in the media is something that has always bothered me. I've pointed it out several times on this board. I think that's a red flag.
I'm not a big RAC fan, and I'm not a big Savage fan. I think they have tried their hardest to put a winning product on the field. I don't doubt their effort at all. But in year 4 they haven't been able to build a winning culture here, and I think that says a lot.
I don't believe this is the leadership to get us over the hump. To Savage's credit, he's acquired some nice pieces. I'd like to see what a new staff could do with these pieces in place. I don't believe at all it would be a complete tear down. We've almost got a decent foundation here. We just need the right mix of personalities and competence to get us over the hump, IMO.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I don't understand where the hate for Savage is coming from.
Savage has put the pieces in place to win, and win now. And we aren't winning. And, I think that falls on RAC, not on Savage. I will disagree with Savage if RAC isn't gone after this year, but other than that, I think he has done everything he can to put a winning team on the field.
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Is this the guy we want leading this franchise?
yes.
...but I'm only speaking for myself. The "we" part would depend upon how many others share my view.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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At least one, but I reserve the right to change that opinion depending on how Savage handles some dicey situations over the next 12 months, which include but aren't limited to: Head Coach, Quarterback, disruptive players, and draft selections.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Maybe this part of the story made it to this thread and maybe not. I don't know because there's a bunch of type in here that didn't interest me enough to scan through it.....
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Winslow defied Crennel's requestViews 510 Comments 21 07:21 AM ET 10.23 Share Print It My T&R Kellen Winslow has appealed his suspension in a story that will now carry late into the week. Winslow and Phil Savage have more in common than they think in this dispute. They've both hung their head coach out to dry. Winslow repeated his criticism of the organization even after Romeo Crennel talked to him on the flight home from Washington. That goes beyond heat-of-the-moment emotion to complete selfishness, utter disregard for his team and total contradiction of the mutually agreeable stance he took just a few days earlier when he said, "just because I catch a football doesn't mean I should tell what's wrong with me or what happened." That gave Savage, the reluctant GM, valid reason to suspend Winslow. Now a beleaguered head coach is without his star tight end on the road facing the prospects of going 2-5. Good timing. Winslow's stated wish to remain a Brown for a long time despite the dispute and suspension goes hand in hand with Crennel's insistence Wednesday that the relationship is "reparable." Both contentions seem about as likely as Jose Canseco patching things up with Mark McGwire.
-Cleveland Plain Dealer
That closes the book on Winslow just being an emotional player, and seals the deal as a whining, self-centered, egotistical idiot who's put himself ahead of the team, a team he professes his love for.
People want an emotional response? Here's one:
I hope the Browns put the screws to Winslow by forcing him to play out his contract through 2010. If he doesn't like it, he can stay at home and count the voided checks that are no longer being direct-deposited into his bank account. I'll enjoy visualizing Rosenhaus as he storms around his office, imagining the money he isn't making off of a renegotiated contract, all because Winslow screwed the pooch.
Just like Edwards, I'll root and cheer when they do something good for the Browns on the field, but for every moment outside of that four-hour window, I couldn't care less about either player. Until they prove to me they've become men between the ears and in their souls, they ARE nothing more than pieces of meat. God knows they've done very little to earn any other moniker with their laziness or self-centered attitudes and actions.
Take a good look people: This is how ONE SINGLE PLAYER can disrupt his quarterback, his offensive coordinator, his head coach, and his GM.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Y'know- for awhile there, I was really starting to think that K2 had turned the corner. Except for an emotional flareup here and there, he acted like a model citizen for much of his time back since the accident.
Like my sainted Pappy used to say: "Give people enough time, and they'll eventually show you who they really are." He was right about folks more often than he was wrong.
I'm starting to believe that he would have been saying some of the same things you are about K2... which really makes me sad. I'm a sucker for a 'turnaround story"... even in my advanced years. Maybe it just makes me a sucker, period.
I'd hate to see this guy end up being the kind of player that puts the entire organization in the oncology ward- weakened, hairless, and on Phil-induced chemotherapy and life-support.
We were just getting back to a place where we fans could afford to be legitimately hopeful about the future... for the first time since 1995. It would be a cryinass shame to see something like this set us back... once again.
As per your previous post... Yepyep. Phil's got some serious GM'ing to do in the next 18 months. Gotta be very different than simply being "Superscout" back in the ol' Ravens days...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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I don't understand where the hate for Savage is coming from.
It's not hate. Don't get confused over that. I think Savage has done some good, and I believe he's worked his ass off. But are we any closer to winning a Super Bowl today than we were when he took the Browns over? We could realistically wind up with a very lopsided win-loss record this year and I'm not talking about the ones where the wins are greater than the losses.
I'm just wondering how teams like the Steelers continue to do it year after year. Head coaching change? No problem. 3rd string RB? No problemo. LBs that play like rookies the first year, then look like stars in the making the next? That's covered too. Ahem ... move aside Porter, we've got another sack master waiting to take your place. Major injuries on an OL that nobody thought was any good to begin with ... that's ok too.
They have that magic ingredient. What it is I just don't know. But I have become fascinated with that franchise in an awe kind of way. That's what I want us to be so badly. I just don't see enough evidence from Savage and RAC that we are headed in that direction or that they can take us there. I could very well be wrong, and I have a feeling I'm going to have a chance to be proven right or wrong because I don't see anything changing this offseason. For a guy like Savage who likes to see a problem then attempt to fix it right away, he sure takes a different approach with his HC and QB. He's married to them both, and I don't know why. He's bought into the "stay the course" mantra, but I'm wondering if his head is so far in the clouds right now that he really doesn't know up from down. I personally think he is in over his head. Face it, he has no track record to lean on. He has turned a total of zero franchises around and set them on the right track. This is all new to him. And there is the real possibility that he already is or will be a failure here.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Well, let's start with the question. Are we any closer to a Super Bowl than before Savage got here? Yes, we are. The talent level at many positions has been upgraded tremendously. The steps that have been taken are quite clear.
The Steelers do what they do because of stability and continuity. How many head coaches have they had in their entire existance? A handful. They do things the right way. They built a foundation, developed depth, and then continued to do so.
Savage is hardly "married" to "his" QB. You don't know the plan in place and are assuming things, just like so many others. I understand that you don't know what the plan is. That doesn't mean you have to just assume he worst.
Maybe Savage isn't quick to change head coaches because *gasp* he believes in him?!?!?! What a concept! Maybe Savage has put a plan in place with his head coach and thinks that they can succeed. Maybe, just maybe, Savage has all the facts and details you don't that allows him to evaluate things fairly and come to the conclusion he has.
I'm poking fun in a good natured way, but also making a point. Just because you, or any fan, doens't know or understand the plan doesn't mean there isn't one in place.
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They have that magic ingredient. What it is I just don't know.
It's called continuity.
#gmstrong
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But are we any closer to winning a Super Bowl today than we were when he took the Browns over?
Hey Rishuz, I might be wrong, and I'm going to ask for forgiveness in advance here, but it's my humble (er...yeah...humble ) opinion that you, like so many other fans, are feeling the emotional responses created by short term results, and not really stepping back to review the big picture.
That isn't an accusation man, it's simply an observation.
Consider what we REALLY have here for a moment, then ask yourself that question again........
We have an offensive line that most teams in the league are envious of. Thomas is a pro-bowl left tackle. He's surpassed the likes of Samuels, Pace, and McKinnie. For my money, the only guy he hasn't caught is Walter Jones. And as you know, I'm no Homer We have a guy that could be called a pro-bowler lining up right next to him. Then we have four guys that are legitimate starting caliber guys from there.
When Savage inherited the team, did he have Jamal Lewis? Hell bro, think about this: setting aside the fun we had with my man-crush on Droughns, did we even have a guy the caliber of Droughns before Savage got here?
Think about our wideouts. The best guys we had for almost a decade couldn't latch on as starters on other teams! At least this group has talent, if not mental issues, but that wouldn't be any different than Willy Green screwin' Kevin Johnson's wife
What about defense? If nothing else, we never had a guy like Rogers  Sure, we had a couple that were as fat as him, but never as productive. I also don't recall any pro-bowl-caliber special teamers, such as Cribbs.
So in short, here's what I ask: Don't look at our record and judge Savage or this team. There's plenty of reason to wonder where we're going in the future, as many of the unanswered questions are the most important, but that can't take away the moves that Savage has made which made us a better team.
Afterall, even if these moves blow up next year, we still have a top-5 offensive line, and some defensive talent to work with. All is not lost, even if it's not yet won.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
I'm poking fun in a good natured way, but also making a point. Just because you, or any fan, doens't know or understand the plan doesn't mean there isn't one in place.
As has been discussed ad nauseum, you are someone with a source or sources on the team. You are at a slight advantage than the rest of us. Maybe you actually know what the plan is.
For those of us who don't, we are only left with what we see and hear. I think even for those of us who aren't in the know, we should be able to visually see and "feel" the plan. We should be able to "feel" the course the FO is taking us on. We "feel" this through things that are said, watching the games, seeing progression in players, seeing progression in coaches, seeing comraderie in players ... basically watching this franchise grow before our eyes.
I'm not seeing that, I'm not hearing that. The plan that I'm "feeling" right now ... well, I don't like the course that it's taking us on. We have no answers - that's zero - at the most important position on the field in Year 4 under this regime. We don't know who our leader on the field is. And I'm trying very hard to figure out the plan for that one. Right now, the only plan I'm feeling is that DA will play until he gets hurt, no matter how poorly. That's all I have to go on because that's all they are giving me. If there is another layer to it - Quinn will play even if DA is not hurt when we are out of playoff contention... then I say their plan sucks. In a league filled with one surprise after another - where players often times perform better than expected - we won't let our 1st round QB who we gave up a lot for get one snap over our erratic worst starter in the league QB until we are out of playoff contention ... man, that's a hard pill to swallow. That's all my evidence. I've got no sources. Those are the only two plans I can come up with. That doesn't make me feel like this regime has us on the right path.
As always, I would be thrilled to be proven wrong. You may know the plan, but it doesn't mean it's a good one or an effective one. Savage and Co. still have a lot to prove in the competency department. They haven't accomplished one single thing yet as head coach / GM. They have built no trust in the fan base. We are still witnessing a crappy product week in, week out. But they have a plan ... that doesn't make me feel any better.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Dawg Talker
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"This is how ONE SINGLE PLAYER can disrupt his quarterback, his offensive coordinator, his head coach, and his GM."
The problem is..they aren't smart enough to understand how they are viewed and don't really give a hoot anyway. They see the Johnsons, Owens, Burriss's etc, etc do the same things and get away with it. Some other team always pays the bucks. "the change of scenery will do them good" Sure, right. For a few months. I don't think it's too late for Winslow here. He's sure pissed about something but once he figures out it isn't all about everyone out trying to get him.. he'll come around. Oh yea.. one more thing. DA needs ZERO help being disrupted.
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Looking into my crsytal ball, I'm going to say our record this year will be 6-10. Just a prediction. I don't think at this point in time I'll get a fight on that one.
I agree we've improved the talent (and I've given Savage kudos for that), but if we do end up 6-10ish ... have the results improved? Are we really closer to the ultimate goal then? With all that talent you mentioned (and I agree it's more than we've had since our return), what's changed?
Am I being too emotional? Maybe I am. But I just wrote a response to CoachB prior to this one. I just don't know what course we are on anymore. I can't sniff the plan right now. I can live with poor results for awhile because I know that these things take time and there is a process involved. But I guess I'm now lost as to what that process is.
And I'll ask you this: You're an intelligent guy. I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm sure you are familiar with team building. What is the absolute foundation of a team? It's trust. You absolutely cannot have a successful team without trust. Do the Browns have this trust throughout the organization? Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I obviously cannot say. So now I've got a conceptual idea for you: By extension, I see the fanbase as a continuation of this big Browns team. What has this team done to build trust among it's fanbase? Why should we trust them? Why should we believe in them? Why should we believe that their plan will work? Is one decent season enough to build that trust? Trust is something that has to be earned. Have they really earned it?
I want to believe, I really do. I want to have a nice logical explanation for everything. But I just don't see it. We are not 2-4 because of the talent, I'll grant you that. So what's the answer? Stick with the plan. What if it's a bad plan?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Wow, Rish... I guess I should get flagged for "piling on" after the last few posts, but the Dawgs are right. I'm feeling wordy tonight (yeah- what else is new?), so I'll try to flesh out a little of my take on what they just said.
One thing Browns fans have to understand about where we are is this: we're not even really in Year Ten since the comeback... we're actually in Year Four. Please just get it into your head that 1999-2004 was a clusterfark of ineptitude, politics, bad choices, and bad administration... and should be purged from your mind before we even get started here.
When Randy said "Basta!!!" (Italian for "enough!") in 2004, and purged the FO- that was essentially the true beginning of the New Browns Era. Since then, it's only been 3 complete seasons of what we now know the Browns to be... and 3 seasons really isn't enough to give the kind of "water off a duck's back" panache you see in the Pittsburgh Steelers.
THREE seasons... and we've already seen:
a complete tear-down on BOTH sides of the ball
an incomplete (but close) rebuild on BOTH sides of the ball
staff turnover at very important, sensitive positions (OC, DC), and the shuffling that inevitably comes with them.
...and in that time Phil (AND RAC- don't discount his efforts even for a minute...) has managed to field a team that many believed would/could contend for a SB this year. I personally didn't think it was possible this year, but I could at least see that we were getting closer, in terms of talent, prospects, personnel, etc.
(I truly always believed that this year was the crucible that would burn off all the impurities, and next year would be the one... maybe that's why I haven't been as upset with this year's current results as other Dawgs who believed all the presumptive hype that was heaped upon us after our 10-6 season.)
_________________________________
I only know you from your posts, Rish- but I have to believe that you're probably a few years (maybe even decades... heheh) younger than I... and I can tell you this much- there was at least a TWENTY TO THIRTY year period in which the mighty, invincible Steelers were the absolute doormat of the NFL. Almost EVERY team put a checkmark in the win column when they looked at the schedule, and saw the Steelers on that schedule... and it almost always came true for them. So- why are they so seemingly 'awesome' now?
They did it the hard way- they built from the ground up. They hired, fired and evolved their FO with increasingly better staff. Most impotantly- when they found good people, they stuck with them for as long as circumstances would allow. When they had to replace good people, they did what worked for them in the past, and replaced them with quality folks, as well. There were never knee-jerk changes. They were smart, patient, methodical and prudent... and their choices were sound almost every time. They took their lumps and kept on going... never losing sight of the eventual goal. They earned their present status the hard way... and that's still to this day, the only way that actually counts for something in real life.
You have a good reason to be in awe of them.... but it isn't because they have some "magic touch." It's certainly not because "God loves Pittsburgh and hates the Browns."
They simply laid the ground work, took ass-whoopin' after ass-whoopin' FOR DECADES... to get to where they are now.
It's something that we're still in the process of doing... but in today's "instant gratification" social mindset, it feels like an eternity. To be honest, Phil and RAC have done something that's nothing less than truly remarkable here- they've built a legitimate NFL football team from an absolute pile of crap in near-record time.
Legitimate- but unfinished.
I for one, am willing to let this story play out... even tho I'm probably much closer to my own personal 'end game' than most of you impatient pups.
I believe we're closer than most think... even if it doesn't happen this year. AND if I'm right, we won;t be looking at a team that's "one and done"... we'll be looking at a team that can be consistently in the hunt for years to come.
To sum it up: it takes more than a few years to develop a culture. In civilizations, it takes centuries. In NFL teams it takes at least years. In the case of the Steelers, it took decades. What you are seeing is the difference between a mature team with an intact culture of winning and excellence, and a team which is still in development.
For me, it's tremendously exciting... even though some heartbreak is inevitably part of the weekly/yearly experience. In short- I'm getting to watch a team being born and mature into a true NFL power... and it's my team. All it's really requiring from me as a fan is a little patience.
As a "womb to tomb" Browns fan, it's the very least I can give.
jhm .02,
Clemdawg.
p.s. the unanswered question: Yes... I think the current team of Savage/RAC can do it for us... still.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Even not knowing the plan, and I sure don't, trusting that RAC and Savage are sincerely trying to do what's best for the team should tell us that there is a plan. The fact that DA still starting when most fans want him benched should tell us there is a plan. RAC and Savage are not football idiots. To see DA struggle the way he has been yet still retains his starting job is an indication that they have a plan that they are trying to follow through with. For some to make stupid, general observations like, "The plan must be to fail because that's what they're doing", is doing themselves an injustice by not thinking it through.
Since these guys are not football idiots, since winning keeps their jobs and losing causing unemployment, and their efforts and focus are on making the right decision regarding" the future franchis QB" of the team we must allow them the benefit of the doubt that they are working a plan. We might not see it; we might not understand it and we might not like the results we think the plan is producing short term, but rest assured they are trying with everything they've got to make the right decision here.
Some say they should already see the writing on the wall regarding DA and perhaps it's true that what we've seen so far this season is all there's ever going to be out of him. But they want to be sure.
If they're giving DA a pass for the first two games due to complications with injuries in the preseason and lack of practice time together for the offensive playmakers, and maybe playing through a wind storm in the second game, then they see his entire body of work this season as four games. He's won two of them, was ahead at half-time in a third, and lost the last one by only 3 points; not to mention punking the defending world champs who came to our place undefeated. That's hardly evidence to bench a guy even when it looks like overall he's playing like crap.
And even though it looks like DA is playing like crap a lot of the time we are only 9 points divided over two games this season from being 4-2 instead of 2-4. That's looking at all six games; not just four. A play here and a play there, which could've been made by a WR, a RB, a QB or even the Defense or Special Teams Unit and we have a much different and winning record.
We are much closer to success than it appears on the face of it and this regime is not going to be devistated and allow themselves to make a harsh or hurried decision regarding "the franchise QB of the future" for a team who is actually very close to success.
To see how close we are we have to look. As bad as the playmakers we count on the most have been playing so far, which has caused the doom and gloom that has been expressed to this point, just think how little improvement it would actually take to put them over the top even vs. a tough schedule.
There is a plan. I don't know what it is but it is coming to a head quickly now.
Part of me thinks DA gets the nod until he plays himself into or out of his future with the team. Another part of me thinks Quinn starts game 9. Maybe even regardless of the situation at that time. Part of me thinks I don't know squat. But the biggest part of me is satisfied that the regime is doing what they think is right by a consensus of RAC, Savage, Chud and the offensive coaching staff and come next season the quarterback controversies that have been a running problem for the Browns year in and year out will finally be a thing of the past. One of these two quys will be the future starting in '09 and it will run like that for better or for worse for the next 5-10 years.
They have to get that decision right. In order to do that they have to have a plan. In order for the plan to work they have to let it play out. Right now I believe they are letting it play out much to the discouragement of many fans who want to win now but are not quite sure how to make it happen.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
They have that magic ingredient. What it is I just don't know.
It's called continuity.
That or constipation. Not sure which one yet........
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Constipation is what I have until I make a post and then it can be described as diarrhea.
#gmstrong
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you too?
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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