DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Winslow thought about asking for a trade/SUSPENDED FOR 1 GAME

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And even though it looks like DA is playing like crap a lot of the time we are only 9 points divided over two games this season from being 4-2 instead of 2-4. That's looking at all six games; not just four. A play here and a play there, which could've been made by a WR, a RB, a QB or even the Defense or Special Teams Unit and we have a much different and winning record.

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Rish, thanks for the compliment. In fact, you hit something right on the head when you asked me about team building. A couple of weeks ago I came back from a conference put on by Hilton to teach us exactly how to do that. It's hard concentrating when the place is the Tapatio Cliffs Resort, but I fought the good fight and paid attention (between cocktail midnights under the waterfalls and mornings on the course *L*). While trust is a foundation marker, so is faith What you speak of when you see the end-result is a lack of both, and any reasonable person would say there are legitimate reasons if one chooses to feel this way.

One thing that I've repeated and said by many posters who I respect is that we weren't as good as our record last year, but we're not as bad as this year. Everything went right for us in '07, and everything is going wrong for us in '08. Common sense says we're a .500 team by nature right now when examing the big picture. So one can again question exactly where we are when we see problems right now.

I'm going to borrow a quote from 'Dub here:

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The fact that DA still starting when most fans want him benched should tell us there is a plan. RAC and Savage are not football idiots. To see DA struggle the way he has been yet still retains his starting job is an indication that they have a plan that they are trying to follow through with.

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I gotta say, having been a HUGE Matrix fan, combined with a long-standing interest and study of philosophy, I'm feeling a bit like Morpheus as my mind starts to roll it's way through metaphysics. Being right-brained makes for a goofy personality but some interesting meditation

Back to 'Dub's quote........It's not a question of whether or not a plan has been formulated or if it even exists. The question is obviously whether or not the plan which has been formulated is viable. As it pertains to Anderson and the path that Savage is following, the fact that he's struggled as he has yet retains his job sends a very clear statement that the plan is one of patience.

Patience to examine whether or not a young QB with limited experience can grow

Patience to wait for the problems which have cropped up to work themselves out

Patience to accept that there's more than one solution if any given choice fails

This patience indicates that winning at all costs in this very moment in time is not the goal, which itself falls in line with the belief that we're on the path of a long-term plan, one that gives the organization the freedom to be.........patient

It's all cyclical.

So...it's a question of trust, belief, and faith on our parts.

To me, I very clearly see the path, and fully comprehend the choices, even if I don't agree with them. I fully accept that belief, faith, and trust aren't requisites of the plan, therefore I don't have to embrace it. I simply have to understand it. That clearly isn't the same as approval.

So, I believe that you comprehend the path, though you simply don't approve of it. That is your right, and when it's all said and done, you may well prove to be correct. I can't say for sure. I trust my senses, which have been honed from years in football as both a hobbyist as well as using it as a tool for income. In many ways, I'm in agreement. I don't believe in RAC, but I understand why Lerner put him there. That's just one example.

If anyone truly doesn't grasp the direction we're going, here's my opinion of the path that Savage envisioned, prior to Winslow's meltdown (Disclaimer: The views expressed by this amphibian are not those of the Browns, it's partners, nor it's affiliates ):

Crennel is still the supported coach of the Browns. He was given his choice in coaches but failed. To some extent, Savage had stripped him of some of his power, which was his right, and was the right move. How much slack he has left remains debateable.

The QB situation was as follows: Derek Anderson was to be given every opportunity to remain as the starter. Circumstances which were out of the teams control in preseason have continued to be a problem for the team. For that reason, Anderson has been given some slack. However, Quinn remains on the team should Anderson fail. The contract signed by Anderson gives the team flexibility should he either develop, or not. Though the immediate results are questionable, the situation is favorable. How much slack Anderson has left is dependent on his own play as well as those around him.

The coaching staff is no longer tied to Crennel. The OC was brought in under Savage's order, not RAC's. Ergo, should RAC not survive what has become a dicey situation due to his own mistakes, the OC would remain in place, if not be promoted. Tucker was given his promotion, and remains well-thought of in the building. Should Crennel not survive, Tucker is likely to remain, barring a complete collapse of his defense.

In summary, the staff has been built not just with idea that they will succeed, but also with the idea that they should survive if RAC doesn't.

As for talent..........there isn't some great theory that we draft based on the most talented player, or that we draft simply for need. The reality is that we did both. To follow the bouncing ball logically over the last several years:

We started out with a bare cabinet. The goal was to setup a healthy cap and start plugging holes. Obviously we attempted to fill both lines first. A sound idea, though the guys we tried to plug in first failed because they were at the end of their careers. Keep in mind they were short-term players with.....short-term and cap-friendly contracts.

Later, we went with better players because we had a very healthy cap situation. It was a sound plan, and one that has served us well, at least on offense. It would have been nice to not have lost 1/2 of our defensive line rotation for this year due to injuries, but that's the way it goes. That is a result, not part of the plan. We've added pieces based on need, though we didn't break the cap so that we could continue to add players as needed.

So here we sit. We'd slowly marched our way towards .500. Last year's success gave us all a false sense of hope that we were actually better than we really were. I'm surprised that so many people understand that, but yet remain under the spell we should be continuing with that success.

The actual goal is to acquire the last few necessary pieces this coming offseason, and make a march to the playoffs based on the following questions being answers:

QB: If Anderson turns the corner, he's the guy. If he doesn't, Quinn is the guy. The loser is traded for:

DL or OLB, be it a player or a draft pick. The plan says we're fine in the middle with both lines, and on the offense in general. We can choose to talk about the Winslow situation, but we're purely talking about the plan now, not the present result. Keep that in mind. The 3-4 is all about the linebackers, and that's where we need help in order to be a good defense. The plan says Wright and McDonald/Holley are good enough, as are Pool and Jones. The plan says we're ok for another year or two with Lewis, Wright, and Harrison.

So the question is whether or not that plan will work. It can go either way at this point, but realistically speaking, Savage hasn't gambled with high-risk moves. If a few moves fail, we have other pieces to make up for that. The Giants game taught us that.

I'm starting to ramble. I know. Just wanted to make the points. It's a question of whether or not we the fans can accept the plan that's in place, and be patient enough to let it run it's course. Every day at work I see road bumps that I have to negotiate, but I never lose sight of the big picture. In our case, the big picture ends with what happens next year, not this one.

So, can we be patient to see how this year ends? I can, even though I want to see certain moves made, and believe that some moves are good while some are doomed to fail. That won't stop me from understanding the path, and being patient for the rest of this season. Why? Because the path laid out by Savage doesn't go in one simple direction, ergo if one factor fails, we have the ability to make a move, thanks to a healthy cap situation and the ability to acquire talent.

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Okay, now can you explain how a "few plays" or our record being 4-2 verses 2-4 has ANYTHING to do with how our QB is performing?

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No I can't.

I was setting up the statement I next made that we are closer as a team to being successful than it may look on the surface. In addition, I was trying to point out that even as bad as we see DA playing, a few plays that could easily have been made by many others, on either side of the ball, would have helped cover for his performance and we could have won a couple of those winnable games.

That is also meant to indicate that DA is not the entire problem. Which is perhaps one reason we still see him starting even though many of us think he is severely underperforming.

Look at it this way too, what would be the content of most of the posts on this board if we were 4-2 as opposed to 2-4? At 4-2 we're nipping the heels of the Steelers at the top of our division, everyone is happy, the National media still loves us and although we could still see room for improvement most posts would be positive, encouraging and full of hope.

But at 2-4 everything gets nit-picked from Savage on down to RAC to Chud to DA to BE to Stallworth for not playing througha painful injury. Coaches should be fired; players should be benched and the media is ashamed they ever thought we'd be good. So ashamed in fact that they aren't even making excuses for us to try and make themselves look better. At 2-4 our playoff hopes are all but lost and heads should roll.

And the difference is a few plays as usual. Whether they'd have come from DA or someone else wouldn't matter. At 4-2 many would figure DA is playing good enough to win. And that would be hard to argue at 4-2. It is a team game.

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So...it's a question of trust, belief, and faith on our parts.

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I find it........unfortunate.........that Winslow defied him, despite the various conversations RAC's had with him. That can either be construed as a player who's truly out of control, or a coach who doesn't have a strong a grip as we thought he had. So which one is it? I'm not ready to make that declaration, simply because I don't have enough info.

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Bro, that's about as far as I can go

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Appreciated for your honesty. Insofar as the Holmgren reference goes, maybe RAC needed a little less to do as well. I don't know exactly what that would have entailed but it could be nonetheless.

We are a couple of consessionators this morning huh?

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Browns GM defends suspension of TE Kellen Winslow
Thursday, October 23, 2008 9:53 PM EDT
The Associated Press
By TOM WITHERS AP Sports Writer


BEREA, Ohio (AP) — Cleveland Browns general manager Phil Savage emotionally defended his decision to suspend tight end Kellen Winslow, who claims the club tried to cover up his staph infection and has appealed his one-game ban without pay.

Savage suspended Winslow for his disparaging comments and behavior following Sunday's loss in Washington. Winslow, who agreed to keep his medical condition private, revealed he had staph and said the Browns, who have had a high number of staph cases in recent years, still have a problem with infections.

Insisting "this is not K2 vs. Phil Savage," the GM depicted Winslow as selfish and outlined the team's reasons for suspending one of its stars.

"The Browns are bigger than one person, bigger than (owner) Randy Lerner, bigger than (coach) Romeo Crennel, bigger than me and bigger than any player on this team," Savage said during his weekly appearance on WTAM radio. "We couldn't and won't allow one person to tear down the organization, so we had to do something."

Winslow appealed his suspension on Wednesday. His case will be heard by an arbitrator on Tuesday in Cleveland. Per the NFL collective bargaining agreement, the arbitrator must issue a decision within five days of the hearing and the ruling is final.

If he wins his appeal, Winslow, who will serve his suspension Sunday when the Browns play at Jacksonville, could recoup the $235,294 — his one-game paycheck — he was docked with the suspension.

In his first public comments since imposing Winslow's suspension, an animated Savage expressed his disappointment at the Pro Bowler's assertion the team hid his illness. He was also offended by Winslow's charge that Savage didn't check on him while he spent three days at the Cleveland Clinic.

Savage countered Winslow's claims by recounting the team's support after the player was seriously injured in a near-fatal motorcycle accident in 2005.

"The comments really called into question the integrity of our medical staff and the organization as a whole," Savage said. "To compromise that trust after the Browns had stood by Kellen through the motorcycle episode and knowing without question that we have done everything in our power to combat the staph infection problem — it showed a lack of professional restraint."

Moments before Winslow criticized the Browns, he and Savage spoke in a hallway outside Cleveland's locker room at FedEx Field. Savage said the meeting was not heated as had been reported, and that he and Winslow shook hands before parting ways.

When Winslow revealed he had staph, breaking an agreement with the Browns not to disclose his illness, Winslow said he was speaking out to protect his teammates' health.

At least six Browns have contracted staph since 2005. The club maintains it has been proactive in keeping the training facility clean, and on Wednesday, several Browns, including three captains, said the team has educated them on the risks of staph and preventive measures to avoid being infected.

Savage suggested Winslow's condition was not isolated to staph. Winslow was hospitalized on Oct. 9 and released three days later. He missed the Browns' upset of the New York Giants on Oct. 13 before returning for last week's game against the Redskins despite practicing once.

Medical privacy laws preclude teams from disclosing a player's illness without permission, and while Winslow was sidelined, the Browns said they were abiding by his wishes to conceal his condition.

"From a legal standpoint, HIPAA laws and such, we can't even reveal the nature of someone's illness without their approval of it, and due to the nature of this particular situation, it seemed that the people involved wouldn't want it out there," Savage said. "Our hands are tied in certain situations on these medical things, and it was all agreed upon that we will keep this under wraps; it's a non-football illness, it occurred during the bye week and we've got a game to play."

Winslow's high-profile agent, Drew Rosenhaus, has been shockingly quiet during the ordeal. Rosenhaus has not returned a phone call or e-mail from the AP seeking comment on his client's situation.

Rosenhaus made his own radio appearance in Miami, and said he does not agree with the Browns' decision to suspend Winslow.

"In general, I believe suspending a player should be conduct very detrimental, very serious, something where there's been a pattern where a player has not followed notice and warnings, things of that nature," Rosenhaus said. "We'll see what the outcome is."

Crennel denied an NFL Network report that Savage tried to trade Winslow last week before the deadline.

"There have been some inquiries and that happens all the time with players," Crennel said. "A team might call and say, `Hey, what about so and so? Are you guys interested in doing anything?' That might have happened, I'm not going to say that it did or didn't, but we were not actively trying to trade him."

Earlier this week, Winslow expressed in a statement his desire to stay with the Browns "for a very long time" and was confident he and the team can move forward together.

Savage hopes Winslow keeps his word.

"If he is willing to do the things that he said publicly that he is willing to do, we'll gladly accept him back," Savage said. "Kellen Winslow is a talented player that can help us win. I feel like once this passes, it's over with and we're going to move on. We've got to do what's best for the team, and the people on the team have to do what's best for the team and not necessarily what's best for themselves."

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Phil must have felt some pressure to try and justify this.