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Quote:
My point is that our defense is smoke and mirrors, with this most recent win being a perfect example.
Smoke and mirrors is something you get away with until people figure out the trick, then they are on to you... evidently the rest of the NFL hasn't figured out the trick yet..
So I just have to compare our defense to the rest of the NFL.. in 5 of our 7 games, we have held other teams under their season scoring average, sometimes considerably under.. the two we did not would be the Cowboys and the Ravens... and the Cowboys were above 28 ppg until they lost Romo.. and the Ravens, well if you discount the points our offense handed them, our defense would have held them too...
Conversely, our offense, in 7 games has scored more on teams than the rest of the NFL exactly two times.. Jacksonville and the Giants.. coincidence that those are our 2 good wins... when the offense shows up, we look good, when they don't, we don't... but the same defense continues to show up and give us a chance to win...
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If Matt Jones were a good NFL receiver, the Browns just lost the game, having allowed the Jags to walk down the field and score with 10 seconds on the clock. In that case, we'd be sitting here talking about how the offense did it's part but the defense didn't.
You might... I would more than likely look at our last 3 possessions, the first of which with a tie game we had first and goal at the ONE, DA went 0 for 2 and we settled for a FG...
or the second where we took over with a 3 point lead and 4:27 seconds on the clock on their 25 with a chance to score a TD and ice the game.. instead DA went 0for 2, we gained 0 yards, ran 21 seconds off the clock and settled for a FG which kept it a 1 score game...
Then our defense forced a 3 and out and got us the ball back with 2:57 left.. one first down and AGAIN, the game is over... our offense ran 3 plays gained 5 yards, ran about a minute off the clock and gave them the ball back on the 30 with 1:51 on the clock...
No, had Matt Jones made that catch, I would STILL be talking about how our offense had THREE chances to put this game away and couldn't do it.
yebat' Putin
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Yeah, tell me again that our defense is doing it when it counts. 
For yet another week, we enter the 4th quarter either with the lead or in the game. And yet for another week, the defense folds like a house of cards. 
I warned everyone that we look better than we are because teams didn't have to open up their offenses and hammer our sorry defense because we didn't have many leads. Well guess what just happened:
2nd half we have a big lead
The Rats open up the offense
Our big lead dissapears and we're suddenly losing
We lose the game
GOOD defenses shut teams down when it counts
BAD defenses fold up and give up yards and big plays
FACT: The Ravens rushed for 193 yards against us
FACT: Our defense was spotted 27 points, WAY more than enough to win
FACT: Flacco looked like a pro-bowler us
The defense was spotted TWENTY-SEVEN points. They gave up THIRTY. They gave up a 60-yard run to Ray Rice when the game was on the line. They gave up 429 yards of offense to a team that just isn't that good on offense.
Smoke and mirrors.......smoke and mirrors..........All the excuses and justifications were just exposed for what they were. When the offense scored 14 in the 3rd quarter, all the defense had to do was get a FEW stops. The defense had it's chance. They blew it because a team finally opened up an offense when they were behind and drove us right into the ground.
Yeah.......the defense has made "pointed progress."
They carry their own cross, and have nobody to blame but themselves.....
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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I feel Tucker carries a lot - most of - the blame for the defense this game. What are your thoughts on the game he called? I thought it was atrocious. I don't think he did the D any favors putting them in a position to be successful.
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I think they simply got whooped.
I'm not going to blame Tucker. The defensive players know that the spread-run is coming.......it's up to them to stop it.
You knew it was coming. I knew it was coming. My buddies knew it was coming. One of my buddies 11-year old boys knew it was coming Tucker knew it was coming, and the defensive players knew it was coming.
We can blame Tucker, the D-line, the 'backers, or the D-backs. None of that matters. The unit needs pass-rushers, good linebackers (besides Jackson) and healthy D-linemen to do their jobs. Tucker has no choice but to have the corners play off because everyone not named Rogers has no chance of getting to the QB.
Smoke and mirrors.....
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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You sound like a political add campaign.
I believe at times, our defense has made strides, but at other times they just fall apart. A lack of a rush from the LB's is hurting us a lot.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Good. That means I'm driving the point home *L*
People don't have to like the message, but sooner or later they will have to accept it.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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lol, nothing wrong with the way you said it, it just sounded like some McCain commercial telling us why not to believe in Obama.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Our offence has put up 142 points (#26), or 17.75 ppg. that ranks #26 throughout the NFL. The defense has given up 160 (#11), or 20 ppg and that ranks #10 throughout the NFL. Points are what count right? the teams that have scored less points are: Cincy (0-8) K.C. (1-7) Oakland (2-5) St.L (2-6) Det. (0-8) Funny how those horrible offences dont have very good records. How does Points allowed equate to wins? the teams that has allowed fewer points. NYG (6-1) Wash (6-2) Philly (4-3) carolina (6-2) Tampa (6-3) N.E. (5-2) Pitt (5-2) Balt (5-3) Tenn (8-0) Seems as though the defence is doing an admirable job. this is pretty good company. *** Atlanta is 4-3 and has scored 154 points, a 22.0 average The offense is the problem, We just need to figure out how to fix it 
Last edited by ibleedorange; 11/02/08 07:10 PM.
Ruining QB's since 1999.
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Points are what count right?
If it were only that easy  That's the same convenient excuse that the writers have been trying to pedal onto us, and you picked up a copy 
As I've stated in past years and again this year, teams aren't racking up big yards and big points against us because they don't have to. When they are FORCED to open up their attack they almost always often move the ball down the field and score.
That was true in years past, was proven last year, and proven again this week. Teams can simply bleed us to death with the run, which means less yards and less points allowed. When they open up the offense, we give up more yards and more points.
It's simple.
However, setting this aside, even though it proved itself out today, you want to play with the stats. Ok. Let's play with the stats.......
Here's the top four defenses in yards allowed so far this year in the NFL:
Steelers
Ravens
Giants
Redskins
Notice something similar about all those teams? If anyone doesn't know, we've played every one of those teams, and the Ravens TWICE.
8 games and we've played the a top-4 defense in 5 of those.
Gee, maybe our offense isn't the problem afterall.
Besides, as I've said over and over, each side of the ball carries their own cross. I'm blaming the defense for the loss against the Rats, and there is no convenient excuse for them this time. I've said teams don't rack up all they can against us because we haven't had big leads. Today, we had a big lead. A mediocre-to-bad offense opened it up to play catchup, and they shredded us, not only in yards, but in points.
Time to stop giving the defense a free pass based on one, single, solitary stat which is the made up of so many other variables.
I'm sure some might wonder why this sets so wrong with me. It's because we look like a bunch of excuse-making pansies when we meekly point at about the only stat that looks good on this team as some sort of half-hearted validation to hang our hats on. It's just like the guy at the bar that says "We're a contender! Just look at our tandem of RB's!" when he doesn't bother to acknowledge that his offensive line is the worst in the league This kinda crap is making an excuse and pointing the finger somewhere else, which is something that makes us all look bad.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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If your theory that teams dont need to score alot of points to win against us is the reason our defense looks so good then it should apply to the other meager Offenses in the league right?
Lets test your theory, we know how bad the teams that have scored less points than us, but how are thier defenses,: points allowed and (rank)
Cincy (0-8) 236 #31
K.C. (1-7) 223 #27
Oakland (2-5) 201 #22
St.L (2-6) 235 #30
Det. (0-8) 239 #32
Cleveland has been a bend but dont break defense even last year #21st in scoring defense but 30th in yards per game.
You claim that i take a stat to hang my hat on, sorry, all of them point to what i am saying. Last year we averaged 25.1 ppg. (#8) this year under 18 ppg (#26) that is a whole touchdown less than last year per game, are you blind?
You can make up more excuses and/or theories but in the end statistics validate what i am saying.
I'm still looking for and am interested in finding out how/if time of possesion effects defenses, but cant find any time of possesion statistics. My theory on that is that the more time that the offense is on the field leads to less points given up by that teams defense. I think even you will agree that we are consistantly losing the time of possesion battle.
Last edited by ibleedorange; 11/03/08 03:36 AM.
Ruining QB's since 1999.
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If your theory that teams dont need to score alot of points to win against us is the reason our defense looks so good then it should apply to the other meager Offenses in the league right?
I haven't yet read the rest of what you've written, but before I do, it's very easy to see that teams have run on us when they needed to, and passed when they needed to open things up.
In this case, it's something I've been watching with this team for years. So in short, I don't worry about other offenses, because I know how teams have dealt with us. The proof has not only been in years past, but this one as well.
Like my last example with the top-5 defenses we've played, it applies to the Browns and only the Browns, not other teams.
So, onward with your side of the discussion.........
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Lets test your theory, we know how bad the teams that have scored less points than us, but how are thier defenses,: points allowed and (rank)
Back to points allowed. Nice try. No dice
Again, I'm disputing the points-allowed theory. Using it as part of your defense is like defining a word while using that word in the definition 
Besides, if those teams are worse than we are, shouldn't they all have a worse defense? *L*
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Cleveland has been a bend but dont break defense even last year #21st in scoring defense but 30th in yards per game. But the offense was 8th in scoring, averaging 25.7 points per game.
Let's see...........less points scored this year, so teams don't have to open it up against us as much as last year, and as a result our scoring and yards per game are better.
SHOCKER!! 
Sorry my fellow dawg, but the proof just happened right in front of us, not just this week, but the week before, and the week before that. Each team pounded our defense at the end of every one of those games, whether it was through the ground or the air. We had to have Jones drop one last week to hold on, we couldn't stop Rice or Flacco today, and we couldn't stop Portis or Campbell three weeks ago. The more we led, the more they opened it up, and the more yardage we gave up.
Points isn't everything, despite these articles' best wishes.
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I'm still looking for and am interested in finding out how/if time of possesion effects defenses, but cant find any time of possesion statistics.
Do it the old fashioned way: NFL.com.
Look man, common sense says that if a team is on the field for long stretches they'll wear down. That's an old arguement that holds water, but not with us. Why? Because even when we're moving the ball and/or scoring points, our defense continues to struggle. Because we give up big runs in the first half as well as the 2nd half. Because each side of the ball has to carry it's own cross.
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You can make up more excuses and/or theories but in the end statistics tell the story.
Seems to me the only ones making up the excuses are the ones who've thought our defense was better than what it was. Stats tell the story? Boy, they sure do:
Ravens: 429 total yards
Ravens: 193 yards rushing
Flacco: 17 of 29 for 248, 2 TD's 0 INT's for a 109.5 rating (70 with 3 TD's and 7 INT's coming into the game).
30 points given up, 17 uncontested/unanswered in the 4th.
Yup, they sure do........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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That was one of the most pathetic showing of Defensive football i ever saw come out of cleveland, I was ashamed to wear my Browns Jersey up town yesterday after that game. Season over.....atleast now the players will have time to talk about getting a new contract....god forbiD they EARN IT
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The defense was not that good to begin with..but yesterday showed something that I see expansion teams look like..
It was weak..the scheme was bad..Flacco just was too confortable even though there were hiccups in the game..
Tucker didn't throw enough different looks to confuse him.
LB's..well I've spoken out about them..they need to go.
Corners looked like high schoolers..10 yard cushions to MASON AND Clayton????????
And who taught them how to tackle and wrap up?
Plastic man??
They were whiffing and self destructing in the turf..same with Pool/Jones..
It was like no one knew how to cover ...the fundamentals were totally lacking..
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Sean Jones played as bad a game at S ive seen...he was caught with his nose in the backfield time after time...and was run over, around...and through by Rice. We were much better off with Pool at SS and Adams at FS...Jones either needs to learn to cover or get off the field. Our LB core...is a joke...Willie is probably the worst LB in the league...hes suppose to be a guy that stays at home and is good against the run?  He was out of his gap...caught sniffin in the backfield...and wiffed numerous times. He was the reason Rice had the 65 yarder. Alex Hall should be playing everydown! Wimbley? Worst tackler out of our LB's....OT's just ride him out of the plays...and you see him running downfield or after the QB. We have nobody to replace him with...yet. Our CB's played better in the second half..when the S's did their job....DL is so good...Smith and Rodgers force teams to run off tackle..which they do...and run right over Willie and Wimbley. DQ, Pool, and Rodgers are bright spots...but overall this defense lacks play makers. Our D isnt making progress...it plays well when Shaun decides to take over the game.
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Quote:
You might... I would more than likely look at our last 3 possessions, the first of which with a tie game we had first and goal at the ONE, DA went 0 for 2 and we settled for a FG...
or the second where we took over with a 3 point lead and 4:27 seconds on the clock on their 25 with a chance to score a TD and ice the game.. instead DA went 0for 2, we gained 0 yards, ran 21 seconds off the clock and settled for a FG which kept it a 1 score game...
Then our defense forced a 3 and out and got us the ball back with 2:57 left.. one first down and AGAIN, the game is over... our offense ran 3 plays gained 5 yards, ran about a minute off the clock and gave them the ball back on the 30 with 1:51 on the clock...
No, had Matt Jones made that catch, I would STILL be talking about how our offense had THREE chances to put this game away and couldn't do it.
Unfortunately, DC, you're quote is going to be my launching point.
Are you going to now talk about how our offense had a chance to put this one away, but couldn't do it? 
NRTU here DC......
I'm sure some of you KNEW this was coming from me. Sorry, it's coming anyway. 
How many MORE excuses are we going to make for this defense?
How many MORE times will I have to lay out the truth about the defense before you accept that the offense isn't the problem for us? 
How many MORE times am I going to have to tell you that teams don't rack up big yards on us because they usually don't need to open things up, only to see it happen RIGHT BEFORE YOUR EYES???
Against a team that had NO legitimate running backs left, we let Jay freakin' Cutler put up 447 YARDS PASSING against us.
We let the Donks put up 564 OF TOTAL YARDS against us.
We let the Donks put up 228 yards of offense in the 4th quarter.
We let the Donks put up 21-points in the 4th quarter.
When we needed a stop on defense, we got SQUAT. 
Who wants to blame the offense now??
Hey, it MUST be the offenses fault. They didn't score the winning TD when we had the chance
Can any of you actually blame Quinn for that loss? Hell no you can't! Just because he pooched on the last drive doesn't mean it's his fault we lost.
Each side of the ball carries their own cross!
Just like Anderson over the last few weeks, the offense did enough to win. Can you say the same about the defense? Don't even bother. 
Smoke and mirrors......smoke and mirrors.
Oh, and IBleedOrange: We WON the time of possession.
"Defense makes pointed progress" 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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" Just because he pooched on the last drive doesn't mean it's his fault we lost."
He didn't "pooch". Winslow did with missing the perfect pass right in his hands...And admitted it after the game. Your right about the defense, have been all along..they suck worse than my back yard neighbors.
That said.............I feel like we DID fix a big problem with Bad DA/Good DA. I actually felt good with Brady out there in the end. He look more composed and natural then DA ever has. Now fix the next piece and the next and the next....
Tonight I felt like Brady gave us the best chance to win, NOT DA. and thats sad.
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Not to mention Jay Cutler had over 100 yards passing about 6 minutes into the first quarter.
We had a 2nd down and 1, and could not get a first down. You can't pin that on any one player. The bottom line is that this offense is crap, regardless of who is taking the snaps or dropping the passes.
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Legend
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We have a lack of leadership in the staff and the more I watch, a lack of talent.
Nobody likes starting over, but if that is what you have to do, then that is what you have to do.
We have several parts....more than a few years ago, but this team isn't going anywhere under it's current structure.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Tucker scheme was off...we weren't gameplanned to stop the pass even though everyone knew what they were going to do.
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How many MORE times will I have to lay out the truth about the defense before you accept that the offense isn't the problem for us?
As I've said all along, offense isn't THE problem but it was A problem.
The three and outs and turnovers were making things even more difficult for our defense than they were otherwise. With Brady in yesterday, game managing instead of gun-slinging, what you saw yesterday was the offense functioning like a well-oiled machine (outside of Lewis who stunk up the joint outside of his one big run), putting up points on almost every drive and thus exposing our defense for the stinking corpse that it really is given that we somehow lost anyway.
I have an honest question for you though 'Toad, as I'm struggling to come up with the answer myself: what can we do to fix things? Our pass rush is flat out pitiful, our corners can't cover anyone with height man-to-man, our safeties have countless mental lapses and the only one who gets consistant push from our D line is Rogers. How exactly do we to fix what looks like a complete failure of the system?
We're... we're good?
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putting up points on almost every drive and thus exposing our defense for the stinking corpse that it really is given that we somehow lost anyway.
And thus the fallacy is exposed both as truth, fact, and reality.
Considering there were only 3 responses when I got up today, that means everyone finally understands just how sorry our defense was, and is.
Don't believe BS, HOMER articles, and don't believe slanted stat-lines. Part of the healing process is admitting you have a problem, and now everyone has FINALLY been pulled out of denial and accepted our defense for what it is *L*
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I have an honest question for you though 'Toad, as I'm struggling to come up with the answer myself: what can we do to fix things?
How ironic it must be to watch me castigate Crennel, castigate this defense, both collectively and individually, and then turn around and use the word:
PATIENCE.
"what the Hell? is 'Toad crazy?"
Umm.....Yes, but that's besides the point, hehe.
Five-year plan, Spec, five year plan. This is year four.
You've been around for a long while. While we've differed on viewpoints from time to time, I consider you to be an intelligent and reasonable poster. How many times have you heard me talk about not being able to fix all our problems in one off-season?
It took time, but Savage was able to repair and rebuild our O-line. Just how good of a job did he do? We're missing BOTH our starting guards, yet our line isn't playing poorly. They clearly aren't as good as last year's line, but can anyone actually say Hadnot can hold a candle to Tucker, or that Mckinney can match Steiny? We lost two very good guards, and replaced them with middling guards. That's a testiment to Savage's ability to build our line.
Now, Savage also built up the talent on the offense. We can get into each guy, but overall, our offense is darned-near set.
Savage then built up our D-line. We all know that the 3-4 runs by a dominating NT then big, fast, athletic 'backers. We have linemen, but we don't have any 3-4 'backers. Jackson is about the only competent one out there, and he has a flaw because of his size. He'll be a good player if we can get other good 'backers out there.
So, here's why I said patience. Savage looks like he failed with Wimbley. That one-trick pony isn't going to cut it for the long-haul. Now is the year when Savage will have to spend his wad on the 'backers. It's the only unit that is an absolute GLARING weakness for us. McDonald is an easy target right now, but remember that Holley was probably supposed to be the starter, meaning we've been starting a nickle-corner all year behind a pathetic pass-rush. As I've always said, you can hide iffy corners with a good rush. It's worked for the Steelers and Rats for years.
We have to be patient, but only for another half-season. Savage has to have the chance to build the last part to this defense.
So how do we fix this defense? Pass-rush. It's simple. That won't make us a dominating defense, but it'll put us to the middle of the pack, and with an offense that's going to be good, it's all we need to start making our playoff push over the next few years where our window is.
Sadly, we're going to be stuck with Wimbley for another year. It'll be time to dump the pathetic Davis, and let McGinnest ride his AARP card off into the Sunset (Retirement Home). People want to look at Hall. Meh, whatever. Every season we have guys that the fanbase try and get excited over for all the wrong reasons. If Hall pans out, great, but planning on him is foolish. Savage has to buy or draft at LEAST two new 'backers, and if he's smart, he'll get a 3rd to replace Wimbley. It's also time to replace Robaire, who's getting long in the tooth and who's time is almost over, but that's getting into the smaller picture here.
Fixing our rush will go a LONG way to fixing this defense. If the rush is fixed, it means we have good 'backers. If we have good 'backers, it means they can do the things that Davis, Willie, and Wimbley can't.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Against a team that had NO legitimate running backs left, we let Jay freakin' Cutler put up 447 YARDS PASSING against us.
We let the Donks put up 564 OF TOTAL YARDS against us.
We let the Donks put up 228 yards of offense in the 4th quarter.
We let the Donks put up 21-points in the 4th quarter.
When we needed a stop on defense, we got SQUAT.
I love defense probably more than more realize..so they can all jump into Lake Erie.
Why when you know Denver was going to throw did you not scheme for Cutler?
No blitzes..well no pass rush period..
We played for the run..
Tucker never mixed his scheme and was simply out coached and outplayed.
Safeties were biting more than a school of Piranas..
McDonald looked like a value menu for Eddie Royal..
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So, here's why I said patience. Savage looks like he failed with Wimbley. That one-trick pony isn't going to cut it for the long-haul.
I think the first sentence contradicts the last two.
I didn't like the pick then, and I don't like it now. I don't think he's ever going to be a complete backer, so in that sense the height of the pick renders it a failed experiment. But if we somehow manage to put together a decent defense in talent and scheme...in two years if he's a strictly third-down pass rushing backer who can be utilized to make some noise, which I think is entirely possible...I will forgive him for being the 13th pick.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
The problem with that scenario is that he can be totally nullified by one blocker because he doesn't have a bull-rush, a spin, an up-and-under, or anything. All he has is speed to the corner, and teams have figured him out. In that regard, what good does he do us on 3rd down if they know exactly what's coming?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 102
Practice Squad
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Practice Squad
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 102 |
Browns insider: Defense makes pointed progress
The idiot who wrote this article should be fired.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns insider: Defense makes
pointed progress
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