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I would prefer that one of the ILB's be an upper-echelon free agent, so that we have a veteran in there with whatever rookie we get.... and that rookie will still have to earn his way into the lineup.
Thats usually how Savage attacks any position of need.
He's just had no success getting a top LB ..for different reasons.
But we need a experienced one no doubt.
Dansby and Barton should be two targets..scratch any thought of Lewis coming here unless he's cut..and we know that won't happen.
We'll just have to sit and see who Phil can get..I'll leave it alone for now..
But in the draft I know who we should target , at least we should get one of the top three.
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I still beleive you build the defense like you built the offense...start up front...then work your way back. Get the LB's then worry about the CB's.
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I would really feel more comfortable if we had picks 1-6..as of this moment we don't.
I do agree with you ..rounds one/two I'm going LB..but only if Phil can't get a FA LB..if he can get one top tier ILB , you can use one of the first two picks on a LB..
Shoot , this should the year to remake that unit.
And you are right where I am on this post. The FA period comes before the draft. So everything we do in the draft will hinge upon who and what positions we aquire in Free Agency.
So IF we get a top tier LB in the FA market, I could see us going CB then LB in the draft. Not that we "will". But it opens the door for the highest rated player at either position to be drafted in round 1 IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Between one big name FA and our first two draft picks, I seriously doubt all 3 of them will be defense.. JMHO...
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Not alot of time but here are some main points:
Let's start with the defense. Romeo came to us as having direct contact with Parcell's Giants, and Belechick's Pat's. He has been unable to transfer the philosophy, scheme, discipline or results. No defense for "personnel". We have invested in the draft and FA. Wright, Pool, Jones, Wimbley, DQ Jackson, McDonald, Rodgers, Cory Williams, Smith & Smith. Now in our 4th year with Romeo (as defensive specialist) look at our stats. How much have we improved?
Offense: I don't need to point out the talent. You know the team. Perfomance lacks any consistency.
A good head coach by definition wins games. But, really his job is to get the max performance from each player. Is he doing that?
Do you feel his game preparation is top level? If so how do you give up 500yards in passing to a team you know going into the game can not run the ball. The previous week give up 150+ yards to a second string running back.
Clock management and game time adjustments tell when you have seen an even average capability?
I can site many examples but I'm out of time. Our performance and all factors considered point at Romeo as the problem.
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I think that if we have better linebacker play that we'll find that our CB's are generally decent enough (although I wouldn't let that stop me from taking a CB in the 2nd or 3rd).
All one has to do is look at the mediocre players that the Rats and Steelers have lined up at corner over the years to realize that their pass-rush made those corners look better than they are.
We were even dumb enough to sign one of'em and try playing him at cornerback.
Example: This past offseason, the Jets paid a premium and then some for Calvin Pace, to the tune of the following...
Signed a six-year, $42 million contract. The deal contains $21.5 million guaranteed, including an $11 million signing bonus.
LAST year Nate Clements signed this deal:
Signed an eight-year, $80 million contract. The deal contains $22.6 million in guarantees, including an initial roster bonus of $11 million and annual $500,000 workout bonuses.
Now I know the topic was DRAFTING a corner, not signing one, but my point is that rushers are cheaper financially than corners, and when one considers that most corners tend to be only as good as the rushers in front of them, the smart money goes into finding rushers, not corners.
For a more recent example, all we have to do is look back at the Rats game where Anderson was harrassed and forced to make throws early against backup DB's, while guys like Cutler had all year to throw, and murdered us despite not having any running backs that even Bronco's fans had ever heard of.
Get a pass rush, our secondary will look far better. Waste money on cornerbacks without getting any rush, and all we've done is strap ourselves financially.
Savage knows this. He won't make a poor decision.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Come on man .... What in the hell do u and tabber know .... CB play has nutting to do with the pass rush ... everyone knows good corners can cover a guy for 10 - 12 seconds minimum .. 
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Point being, we need both.
Signing a FA LB of high quality is cheaper than signing a top tier FA CB. Just look at the market and the contracts.
I posted that without good pressure from your DL and LB corp, there is no such animal as a "shut down CB". They can only cover a guy for so long.
You are dead spot on in that.
So if you can land a top flight LB in the FA market, it gives you the option of drafting a top tier CB.
Not that it dictates you do. But why sign a FA CB at 65 mil. if you can sign a top tier LB at 50-55?
Once again, the NFL is a business first and foremost. Hell, a lot of us can look at how a contract is structured and understand what a FO has in mind. And usually, unless a player plays lights out, it has nothing to do with the duration of the contract.
So from a salary cap perspective, it would appear to be more cap friendly to sign a FA LB and draft a CB. I could see us signing a FA LB and drafting a LB in round 1.
But my point is and was, that IF we can land a top tier LB in the FA market, it opens the door for other possibilities in the draft than LB in round 1.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Now I know the topic was DRAFTING a corner, not signing one, but my point is that rushers are cheaper financially than corners, and when one considers that most corners tend to be only as good as the rushers in front of them, the smart money goes into finding rushers, not corners.
Well the topic took that turn after a while..the defense can use a corner but it's doesn't need to take one early ..What I'd like to see is one FA LB..and at least one drafted LB plus a pass rusher..
The maybe in round three or even four take a big corner.
My initial focus is the linebackers ..that unit is pathic.
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My initial focus is the linebackers ..that unit is pathic.
I FULLY understand your concern and share it.
But do you think we need an all-star cast at any unit?
IF we had a Suggs-like LB, how would that effect the production of KW and DQ? I believe you need an all-star type player within every unit. OL.DL.LB's, CB, etc......
We have lunch pail type players in some of our units as well. And they seem to do just fine with an infusion of talent around them.
So the question becomes how much help do we need within any of these units to raise the level of some of our current players?
Are you suggesting just scrapping our entire LB corp? Or do you feel we need one or two excellent LB's to open up and elevate some of our current LB's?
Inquiring minds want to know?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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What the defense needs is a hammer in the middle , so yes that guy needs to be a force ..the title of allstar never entered my mind ,..but the thought of a explosive instinctive player did. We also need a force off the edge..so again the title isn't for me..I want a guy who is a game changer.. Looking at DQ , he would benefit if Kam was a force..which he isn't. Wimbley's problem is two-fold, he 's not a run stuffer..and he's a not a pass rush threat.. U tell me who Kam can feed off of? No one..the OLB is the one who provided contain on running plays and rushes the passer. The inside guys feed off the linemen blowing up the plays.. Kam is the weak link on that side..he's keeping Jackson down.. However nothing will done with him..he's probably safe for one more year. IMO , we need two guys to bring this unit up to par.. One inside ..one to replace Willie.. Now because you asked I'll answer this honestly..if I had my way and I had the players(that fit) available to me..I'd replace every single starting backer..  Don't get shocked..U asked me.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 11/13/08 04:05 PM.
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Oh, I'm not shocked. We just see it a little differently. I think you're wanting to drop a 2 ton bomb where a grenade will suffice.  I do agree that we will need 2 LB'ers to solve our ills. But I'm not sure we need to get a stud FA and a 1st round pick in that unit to accomplish that. And while we don't agree 100% on how to get there, I see your point.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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The big concern with Wells is of course injuries. I don't think anyone looks at him and see's an overrated player. He clearly looks the part of a 1000-yard back. Those injuries though........And of course RB isn't our biggest weakness, as you noted.
Wasnt one of the same reasons why teams didnt want to draft Adrian Peterson? 
If these guys are available when we pick:
Top 5- Michael Crabtree
Top 10- George Selvie
Top 15- Rey Maualuga
Top 20- Chris Wells
Top 25- Brandon Spikes
25+- Really wont give a damn because ill be amazed that were picking this high. 
2nd round- Best linebacker available like Jasper Brinkley or Greg Hardy
I know this isnt the popular choice but keep Romeo for 1 more year.
Try to sign either Willam Peterson/ Albert Haynesworth/ Terrell Suggs
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Shoot , this should the year to remake that unit.
No the year to do that was in 06 when we drafted 3 in the 1st 4 rounds...... 
Savage hasn't had any luck drafting good LBs since he's been here either.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Well it depends Pit..if Phil gets a guy on the outside then you have to go for a inside guy in the draft.
If he gets the FA inside player, then you can several things in the draft..you could grab the best LB you can get first..or go in another direction , then grab one in the second or third.
I'm greedy..I see other teams like Dallas/NY stockpile their D with LB's..thats something we should have been doing.
Big Willie : No the year to do that was in 06 when we drafted 3 in the 1st 4 rounds......
Savage hasn't had any luck drafting good LBs since he's been here eith
Yeah..I wasn't thrilled with the KW pick..you know I wanted Ngata..I know about his talk with Rac..but Rac should have looked at his Dline which wasn't set and said we need to crush the run first.
There were other pass rushers in that draft..
Wait..I thought U loved the DQ pick??
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 11/14/08 10:19 AM.
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I did love the DQ pick. Still do. With a good supporting cast, I think DQ can be VERY good! I was shaking my head on the KW pick though. Thought it was kind of a reach. But what do I know? I'm happier with DQ than any of our other LB picks. He was picked in the second round. And he has the potential to be VERY good! But with his size, he must be used in a way that his speed and athletacism is utilized. Don't you feel that DQ has that potential? If anybody is a keeper in that group, if any player would be markidly better with better overall talent around him, I think that LB would be DQ.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I think most of us thought KW was a interesting pick..I went along even I voiced that Ngata was the plug we needed..I know Mourg agreed that he could play DE..THINK about that for a second:
DE-Ngata
NT-Rodgers
DE-Willams..
Thats two tons of beef..
Anyway Bmore had no intentions of taking Kam and neither was Philly..I really didn't want the Rats to get a big stuffer to add to their D..but they did.
Wimbley looked good that rookie year but has regressed..he hasn't gotten better aganst the run..
The thing is he never posted big sack numbers nor tackle numbers in college..once more this was another situation where I watched the players team play a lot but remember nothing about him..never really heard of him..so I had to look at the scouting reports on him..they prejected him to OLB but said he needed to gain weight and a lot od strength..
I suspect his techniques need a good fine tuning..
DQ..I feel he is the blue collar guy ..but I don't think his ceiling is real high though..he needs to be free of any blockers to make stops at the LOS..that isn't happening because Kam is being manhandled and sealed inside , which allows blockers to come down and hit Jackson.
One thing , have you noticed Jackson making tackles on Davis's side and AD is nowhere near the play??
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 11/14/08 10:57 AM.
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One thing , have you noticed Jackson making tackles on Davis's side and AD is nowhere near the play??
Yes I have. Which is sort of my point.
DQ is covering AD's ass. AD is part of the equasion as to WHY DQ can't play up to his potential IMO.
IMO, DQ can be that "spy LB". He has the speed and athletacism to get penetration around the edges and penetrate gaps. ( if we had the personnel that could CREATE any gaps ) But as of now, he's too busy covering the ass of underporming LB'ers for that ability to be capitalised on. And there's not enough physicality on the line to create gaps for him to exploit and capitalise on.
So with a better LB in AD's spot, I feel it would free DQ up to be a far more productive LB.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Anybody think we might actually see a Beau Bell sighting at ILB on Monday? I sure would love to see what he can do. Its not like he can be worse than AD.
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I would "hope" to see such a change. A message must be sent to those who are not performing IMO
I think Bell is a little green yet. But I agree that he couldn't be much of a downgrade from AD. I believe your suggestion would accomplish two things.
1. Send a message to underperforming players.
2. Give us a glimpse of what Bell can bring to the table in regards to football instincts.
As long as everyone understands he's still a little green and is a work in progress I would like to see the kid get a shot.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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And there's not enough physicality on the line to create gaps for him to exploit and capitalise on.
The weak link is Wimbley..anytime the OLB gets pushed back inside it exposes the corner..
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so the message u want sent is as follows: ... Were going to teach U a lesson ..... No matter how much worse it makes the team ... no matter how much the overall performance of the team is hurt by putting in your back up ... we will do it ... Ya .... thats a good message .... we don't want U to give up .. BUT WE WILL ....  I understand what your saying ... but that is not the message U want to send out ... And your example of a player here could not have been worse .. I have never been an AD fan .. said he was way over rated by most since day 1 .. BUT I do not believe we have anyone that works harder than he does ... NO ONE .. he is not very gifted ... but he works his ass off to get everything he can from his LIMITED PHYSICAL SKILLS ... he is not a good example of an under performer ... he actually over performs for his skills ... U wanna get the kids some time .. wait till were mathamatically eliminated ... NOT UNTIL THEN though ... and then U do it to get the kids some time .. not to send a message ... unless U want the message to be ... "were idiots" ....
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If I believed Bell were much if any of a downgrade from a performance standpoint, I wouldn't advocate it.
But I simply don't believe that would be the case.
And I didn't or wouldn't suggest "benching AD". But starting Bell, if only for a series or two might send a strong message to a lot of our D players.
But I can see your point as well.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I am still very unsettled about DQ. He has some moments where you think he's definitely a keeper, and then follows it up with a play that just kills us (the long run in the Rat game comes screaming to mind). I was very happy when we drafted him, and still think with a better supporting cast he could be a very good ILB. I wouldn't listen to closely to me, because imo I'm the same guy who was singing Kam's praises after year 1....lol. Bro, that guy has really taken a few steps backwards over the past 2 years...............and it's not the double team BS that everyone is clamoring about. He simply hasn't developed any other moves, and hasn't noticeably improved against the run or in coverage. With that said we need at least 2 new LBs this offseason.........one for the in and one for the out.
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Quote:
If I believed Bell were much if any of a downgrade from a performance standpoint, I wouldn't advocate it.
But I simply don't believe that would be the case.
And I didn't or wouldn't suggest "benching AD". But starting Bell, if only for a series or two might send a strong message to a lot of our D players.
But I can see your point as well.
Your desires are coming to fruition...
Indications are that Bell WILL BE ACTIVE and PLAY DEFENSE starting THIS MONDAY NIGHT!!!!!!!
We need to do this...He doesn't need to START but he needs the time so we know WTF we have in him come 2009...
Wimbley ain't the problem everyone rags on...He's gotta be moved around and brought from different areas...PREDICTABILITY with this D is crazy...Seems MOST of the time they come from where they LINE UP...That's INSANE...Hall needs to be moved around also...And I don't mean where he lines up...I mean STUNTING...
How flippen long are we gonna WAIT to do this???...Screw the inexperience...JUST DO IT...
We need to get Bell some experience...Davis & MGinest won't be on this team next year...And the ILB we need ain't comin' from FA...The best will be gobbled up by their current teams...We'll waste our time with FA...Same as every year with LB's...Suggs ain't goin' anywhere either...
The ILB we need MUST come from the FIRST ROUND OF THE DRAFT...Screw the CB...Get one of the Top 2 ILB's in this draft...It's looking like we're gonna be in the Top 11...We're like 2 games ahead of anyone 12 and lower...I don't see this changing...And Maualuga is a DEFINITE possibility in the 9-11 range...So is the 2nd best ILB...There's 2 or 3 worth top 15 picks...WE NEED ONE...
Get MGinest & Davis outta here...With Bell and that 1st Pick in the middle...And Hall outside this defensive landscape changes IMMEDIATELY...And if we're LUCKY to land a STUD in FA for OLB...So much the better...
Go Browns!!!
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Regardless if we play Bell or not... We are still drafting a MLB on day one of THIS year's draft.
Bell would only be playing to kick out Leon Williams spot. And I don't see why Leon wasn't made into an OLB, as opposed to a MLB.
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You would think, but it just depends on who is available at the time we draft.....
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Regardless if we play Bell or not... We are still drafting a MLB on day one of THIS year's draft.
Bell would only be playing to kick out Leon Williams spot. And I don't see why Leon wasn't made into an OLB, as opposed to a MLB.
I too wonder why Leon doesn't play OLB...can't be worse than the others
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I was very happy when we drafted him, and still think with a better supporting cast he could be a very good ILB.
Here we go again with the "supporting cast" BS. The LBs in the 3-4 are the most important ingredient. Our DL does eat blocks, just watch the game. The LBs, mostly Davis do nothing. Everyone was clamoring that with a good nose tackle we would see Davis make plays. Well he still sucks. He has always sucked. DQ is better, but still raw. IMO when Jackson has as many years as Davis has had, the difference will be huge.
It's time we as fans quit using the "supporting cast" as an excuse for bad players. These players ARE part of the cast. They are the ones who show no support for the players that are actuaaly producing.
As for Bell, this is anohter case of "we just don't know". I don't feel you start the guy, but for god's sake play him. I can't believe that he can be worse than Davis.
Andra Davis is just another of long line of fan favorite players, good team guys, who just flat out suck, and are kept on the field for all the wrong reasons. This guy should have been gone years ago.
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If you think having to cover Davis's ass on alot of plays isn't hurting DQ then your nuts. If you think not having a huge liability against the run in Kam isn't hurting DQ then your nuts.
No excuses just facts. I said I was still not sold on DQ either, but I still have hope for him..........the others need replaced period.
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I agree BigWillie....
One in and one out at the backer position ( replacing McGinnest and Davis)with a safety to replace Jones and i feel we are greatly improved on D.....and i hope that comes in the draft not FA.
I would like to sign a FA corner who can play the nickel or even push for Wright and McDonald time.
We are not far off though IMO.......
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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If you think having to cover Davis's ass on alot of plays isn't hurting DQ then your nuts. If you think not having a huge liability against the run in Kam isn't hurting DQ then your nuts.
No excuses just facts. I said I was still not sold on DQ either, but I still have hope for him..........the others need replaced period.
I never said covering Davis' ass isn't hurting DQ. Same with Kam. My point is they all have deficiencies, and Davis has the most. DQ is a good player in my mind but small, that is his defieciency.
My point is using other positions weaknesses to explain a players inneptitude is getting old IMO. It was always said that the DL was the reason for the poor LB play, we see now, that wasn't all that was wrong.
Bottom line, we have no impact LBs, and the team is hurting because of this.
Still, you seem to be using the others for DQs scapegoat. While I believe he is better, I don't see him covering anybodies ass. He is doing his job, and decently. But he has deficiencies also, so is somebody covering his? Nobody is covering Davis' mistakes, or for that matter Kam's. Thus the reason the group as a whole is terrible.
Last edited by eryze19akaBT58; 11/16/08 02:00 PM.
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DQ is useless in as a 3-4 ILB. He is ALLURGIC to Guards and Centers. In a 3-4 a ILB has to be able to take them on at the LOS and get off them to the ball carrier. DQ gets swallowed whole. He might be the easiest MLB/ILB to seal in the NFL. When he doesn't get blocked he looks great...but so would Sean Jones playing ILB for us.
We need physical ILBs to play this defense...and we have ZERO, NADA, ZILCHO of those.
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,177 |
What? DQ is worthless? Have you caught any games this season?  He isnt Ray Lewis...but is BY FAR, our best LB...he tackles the most consistently, he is light years the best in coverage, and is the only LB that we have that will stay in his gap and not try to be the hero. DQ can be a good 3-4 ILB, if and when we can find somebody to atleast stay in their gap or do something meaningful on the field. Dra hurts DQ immensely, once Dra is finally off this defense, and we actually have another ILB with a pulse..DQ will be pretty good. Dra always want to shoot his gap, and futilely trys to make the play...that hurts DQ badly...forcing him to play both ILB spots. I understand the fact that DQ is mowing down OG's...and he is undersized and occasionally it shows..but he is still a good ILB overall. As of today..hes is undoubtedly our best linebacker.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,223
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,223 |
You're right. DQ is no Ray Lewis, but he is the best LB that we have right now. Not sure if that's saying much right now.
He does make plays. I wish he was just a little more physical, but he still does find ways to make plays.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
Well , while I agree with DnD and have been saying they need to move him around, stunt, whatever, he is very weak against the run..thats the huge part that bugs me..
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 |
2009 Draft:
1st round: Draft 1st round OLB
2nd round: Draft 2nd round ILB
2010 Draft:
1st round: Draft 1st round CB
2nd round: Draft 2nd round DE
Defense is THAT important.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,817
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,817 |
I don't like saying we need to pick this position round 1 that position round 2. Your 1st round pick needs to be an impact player irregardless of position. If he fills your biggest need all the better but this is where teams get into trouble passing on a great playrer to fill a need.
But that is a discussion for another thread. We have had numerous threads over the years regarding BPA vs need.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,030
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,030 |
I will say again as I always have in these debates, and that is the two (BPA and need) aren't exclusive. Bottom line is you pick the BPA that fills a need. All NFL teams have multiple needs, and the Browns have a ton. If Crabtree is there..........WR is a need. If Beanie is there......RB is a need. If Jenkins is there.............CB is a need. You get the picture.
However, it is just as stupid when the BPA only guys would take another QB because we deem him to BPA. We have plenty of needs to satisfy both criteria.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,817
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,817 |
I really don't want to get into this debate but for clarification I am not a bpa period type guy. My point was that it is silly to bypass a star just to fill a position of need. I stated our 1st round draft pick needs to be an impact player. Drafting a Qb now would not be drafting an impact player but drafting a backup player.
I think you and agree on this topic. I think I wasn't detailed enough in my last post. Mostly to try to avoid hijacking this thread into a bpa vs need debate thread.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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