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While they ask our government for money, GM is pouring money into Brazil. Do you still want to bail them out?
I"m not sure if you are reading that right.. they have to invest in places other than the US... they can't afford to build cars here and remain competitive..
I don't like it, but until that's fixed, what do you expect?
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Not to nit pick, but it is not a gross exaggeration. I believe it was you yourself that said your dad was making $25,000 in 1975 or 1978
Ya know, I guessed at that number... I asked my mom and she said Dad made 25k but that was working full time at Fisher Body in Dravosburg PA and his shoe repair business combined.. I just remembered that upon his death in 1983, I happened to see a tax return and that's the total... Dads income from GM in 1975 was (my moms best guess) around 16,000 plus benefits. Not really sure how accurate that is to be honest.
But I still resent that fact that you lumped everyone that works for the US auto industry into one pile as people that expected the company and SS to take care of them and that they didn't save...
That 100k,, you say with OT.. was that family income or just the GM person...
I'm freakin amazed.. that is way overpaid for what they do... I'm crushed that that is the dollar amount.. but I guess if you have total costs of 78.00 average as does the US Automakers combined, then I guess that kinda fits... 50.00 per hour in paid income and the rest in fringes etc.
You sited a few examples.. but would you say that 50% of the union autoworkers make 100K... is that 60% or 80% or is it more like 20% or less?
I'm in shock that any union guy at GM makes even close to 100K... I'm disgusted both with GM and the union... it's insane
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I have a hard time looking down my nose at anyone who works in a factory because they "make too much money". It's generally pretty hard work that is deadly monotonous.
Especially when you consider the guys who run the company are rewarded with bonuses in the tens of millions of dollars. Even if they have to come begging for bailouts.
The working man down on the factory floor will have to end up taking the brunt of the pain to make the automakers viable again. But the boys up in the penthouse should share the blame and the pain. Anybody think they actually will?
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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According to my dad's friend that I mentioned earlier that works at Chrysler, it is not the norm to make that kind of money. Lots of OT and holiday work when available is necessary to make that number along with seniority.
#gmstrong
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The working man down on the factory floor will have to end up taking the brunt of the pain to make the automakers viable again. But the boys up in the penthouse should share the blame and the pain. Anybody think they actually will?
I think they will take cuts, but it will not hurt them as much as the lower ranked worker bees; both on the factory floor and "normal" white collar engineering, accounting, buyers, etc. The executives have plenty of money, regardless of if they get paid or not; it will not change their lifestyle all that much. To make it to an executive level in a company of that size likely means you've accumulated a large amount of wealth over the years and taking any kind of cut, including foregoing your salary for a year or two, will not put you in the poor house IMO.
#gmstrong
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I'll vouch for that. My brother's last year at Chrysler, he made 65k before benefits working on the line.
His benefit package...health,401, vacation, etc was worth at least another 15-20K a year.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think that $78 per hour figure is a bit miss leading. The way I understand it is that current UAW workers make about the same as the Toyota & Honda workers $35 phr the difference is in the legacy costs paid to retired workers.
GM has taken some steps to help themselves. Enough? I don't know, but they were able to shed pension cost and hourly costs for new workers and they did something with the retirement trust fund that supposedly will reduce their cost by $1000 per vehicle when the new contract kicks in.They have also streamlined the operation. Their employment is down by 48% since 2000. GM is currently 5th in no. of employees and first in overall vehicle sales.
All this hate for union workers. It might help to remember how they got where they are. The accounting rules of the day did not require "other post employment benefits" to be shown on the balance sheet as obligations so the CEOs we willing to offer the benefits instead of wages. This made their income look better and their bonuses bigger. Sound familiar?
Besides at that time everybody was doing so it it didn't really matter until the Japanese got here. Guess mom was right when she asked if everybody jumped off a bridge would you do it too?
BTW I believe Japanese car markets are closed to foreigners.
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I think that $78 per hour figure is a bit miss leading. The way I understand it is that current UAW workers make about the same as the Toyota & Honda workers $35 phr the difference is in the legacy costs paid to retired workers.
I had heard that Legacy was part of it, but wasn't able to confirm it.. not really trying all that hard to do so either..
But in the end, it doesn't matter, it's a cost that the big three have to incur.. doesn't really matter what it's made up of.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I think the moral of the story is CEO bonuses do more harm than good. CEOs should be paid a salary like every other employee.
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I say we ask their competitors to bail them out.
The well-run companies that aren't asking for the bailout are foaming at the mouth to see our government do this,....they know it is a failure waiting to happen since money will not solve the problem.
Let the good companies takeover,...that's what's going to happen eventually.
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Every bonus I make is predicated upon some improvement in the business. If any area of my business suffers a significant deviation from expectations, I can lose all of my bonus. This is what I don't get when I hear about certain CEOs of enormous companies making millions and millions in bonuses ...... while their companies lose money hand over fist. It's also what I don't get about some companies giving raises while basically insolvent. (at any and all levels of labor and management) It's basic "Business 101". Revenues must exceed expenses in order to attain profitability and remain solvent. Unfortunately ... every level of management and labor in some companies seems to have forgotten thsi simple fact. All too often a PR campaign is the "solution" .... with each side trying to sway public opinion as to why they are "right", instead of working towards solutions that are desperately needed. (especially now, and certainly in GM's case) . 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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But I still resent that fact that you lumped everyone that works for the US auto industry into one pile as people that expected the company and SS to take care of them and that they didn't save...
I'm not sure I said "everyone". Did I? I can't find it in this thread, must've been a different one. If I said everyone, my bad. I do think I mentioned not everyone, but rather "too many".
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That 100k,, you say with OT.. was that family income or just the GM person...
With OT, yes, but it was just the employees income - not family.
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You sited a few examples.. but would you say that 50% of the union autoworkers make 100K... is that 60% or 80% or is it more like 20% or less?
I do not know. Keep in mind, I'm talking about 7-9 years ago as well. My understanding is that with this newer contract, most of the new hires are starting around $12 to $14 an hour, but that is just going off memory of things I've read in the last couple of years.
However, if I HAD to guess, I would guess that probably 30 to 40% of them were making that kind of money - but that is my guess.
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I'm in shock that any union guy at GM makes even close to 100K... I'm disgusted both with GM and the union... it's insane
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I can't believe there are so many people that are unaware of what these workers actually make. I've known a few over the years and they make a boat load of money for what they do in comparison to other like industries. It's been a huge part of the problem since the beginning of the larger salaries for all involved. You can't remain competetive paying people like that.
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I think the moral of the story is CEO bonuses do more harm than good. CEOs should be paid a salary like every other employee.
Running a company the size and complexity of a GM, Ford or Chrysler isn't a picnic and shouldn't be confused with a walk in the park.. even in best of times.. So I do believe they deserve a big pay check..
But some CEO's (not just auto company guys/gals) receive big bonuses when the company isn't doing well financially or even against plan. Why is that?
Most of my life I've been in bonusable jobs... You know the type.. do a good job, get a bonus at the end of the year.., do a great job and get a bigger bonus, do the impossiblly amazing job, get an ever bigger bonus.. do a horrible job, no matter the reason,, you guessed it.. No bonus at all.
I'm good with rewarding good performance.. I'm just not good with rewarding poor performance.
What I don't get is why is that such a hard concept for the boards of the Big three (or any large company for that matter) to understand.. seems simple enough to me?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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JC.
Interesting enough, I believe Ford in Europe is doing OK. Still not great in this economy, but nowhere near the financial disaster they have here.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I hate to see poorly run companies wreck lives like this 
And I hate to see the existence of a union give people false hope and see companies not able to make business decisions properly to be better-running organizations.
People saw this happening but stayed in denial. It sucks, it really does. But is it GM's fault or the employees fault for sticking around when the shifts were cut?
There is only so much you can do for people...eventually the fault rests on their shoulders if they aren't proactive.
You know it's bad if they are even closing plants in Canada and Mexico.
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I can't believe there are so many people that are unaware of what these workers actually make. I've known a few over the years and they make a boat load of money for what they do in comparison to other like industries. It's been a huge part of the problem since the beginning of the larger salaries for all involved. You can't remain competetive paying people like that.
60,000 is the low end of the pay scale for anybody who has been with GM for over 5 years, and I have seen as high as 150,000. Yet these same guys who get a GM discount when buying the cars, bitch because their discount is not bigger, and bitch about a salesman making 150 or 200 bucks commission for selling them the car. Many of the guys/girls are spoiled brats in a grown up body.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Most of my life I've been in bonusable jobs... You know the type.. do a good job, get a bonus at the end of the year.., do a great job and get a bigger bonus, do the impossiblly amazing job, get an ever bigger bonus.. do a horrible job, no matter the reason,, you guessed it.. No bonus at all.
what kind of work does that? sales?
i'm asking because in there case i don't see how that could apply....you weld, or attach a part when it comes to you...then you do it again....you either do it right or you don't.....plus you can only go as fast as the line runs....
now i could see where profit sharing would work well...but that can be a boon too, because of outsourcing and having parts made in other countries...
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Running a company the size and complexity of a GM, Ford or Chrysler isn't a picnic and shouldn't be confused with a walk in the park.. even in best of times.. So I do believe they deserve a big pay check..
But some CEO's (not just auto company guys/gals) receive big bonuses when the company isn't doing well financially or even against plan. Why is that?
this i think is part of the problem....the ceo of a huge company like gm should make a good buck...but American CEO's are making way more than the ceo's of other countries like japan...don't remember where i read it, but its true...and they certainly should get bonuses for long term company health....not short term profits....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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I'll try and catch the link next time I see the commercial,, but there is a commercial playing out there touting some law that Ohio is looking at that will allow people to join a union and let the union work out thier incomes with employers...
But can you believe that someone is actually trying that given the current state of affairs?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I am not a union fan anyway. They tried to put me out of business when I was self employed. If the idiots would have wanted more power years ago, they would have had the brains to include dealership employees in the union. Then if they went on strike ZERO cars would have been sold, giving them more barginning power. Of course then we would have been in worse shape than we are today 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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it just keeps getting better and better... http://www.uaw.org/barg/03/barg02.cfmaccording to the above (clearly designed for union employees) The union wages from 1992 to 2003 went up 13.5% while executive pay at UAW employers went up 22% in that same period.. The wages they show are now 5 years old so I don't know if there were givebacks or not.. or if they continued to escalate.. Either way,, its pretty clear to me that what I said earlier is very true.. both management and labor messed up on this deal.... Greed kills I guess.... So I go back to my original premise to give loans to the Auto Industry.. they have to change.. or no go on the dough
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I can't believe there are so many people that are unaware of what these workers actually make. I've known a few over the years and they make a boat load of money for what they do in comparison to other like industries. It's been a huge part of the problem since the beginning of the larger salaries for all involved. You can't remain competetive paying people like that.
I agree.
To take on something Otto said...I sure don't look down my nose at these people...they are just trying to make a living.
The problem is the reward is out of line with reality.
Pretty much anybody can get a job....or I should say qualify for a job in a auto plant. Sure, there are specialized fields like welders and maintenance mechanics, but by and large, anybody with a GED can put in a application and get hired...even if they have to "know somebody".
The rate of pay far exceeds what a dental tech makes when you bundle everything together...teachers don't make that much..and they have put more into preparing for their field of work than simply filling out a application.
The point I am making isn't to demean anybody at all, but the bottom line is a job putting cars together doesn't demand the average floor worker makes 50-60k per year with 4-5 weeks vacation, pension, health, etc., etc just because they have been there 4-5 years.
I again go back to a point I made yet still nobody in favor of the move has addressed....the bottom line is if the Big 3 were selling the cars, this wouldn't be an issue. How is bailing them out going to sell cars, because that is what has to happen for any of this to work.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I think there is little doubt that the salaries are out of whack when compared to what they are doing to earn that salary. However, to totally blame the unions and the workers is out of whack, too, in my opinion.
Someone from management sat down with the unions at each and every negotiation and gave the unions what they were asking for (more or less) for the last 50 years. Now we blame the unions/workers for taking the ball and running with it, so to speak?
To right this ship will take a great deal of pain and courage. My question would be: Do both sides in this debacle have the brains and backbone to fix this mess? Not looking good so far.......
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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I think that's because over the years we have seen the Unions threaten strike to get what they want, and it seemed like all they wanted was more on top of what they already had.
And you know the Union didn't go in for exactly what they wanted, they inflate so the negotiation will end up where they want it.
A company looks at it and says, "Ok a strike will cost us 200 million a day versus giving in to some of their concessions.". Yes some company exec could have put their foot down, but then the Union strikes, and it kills everyone. It's more a case of the lesser of 2 evils. Much like everything in this country has been becoming.
Which Candidate do we elect? The one that is less likely to screw us up.
Should I shop at Walmart? I could save money, but I'm simultaneously putting Americans out of work.
Should I buy American? I really want to, but this foreign made one is 30% less.
It's sad, but that's the world we live in right now. 100 years ago, no one saw this as a global market, heck 50 years ago there was barely any foreign goods. It was the technology age that really gave a boost to foreign competition, and American companies have been struggling to progress, partially because of old ideals, and partly because of regulation, unions, employee mindsets, and American culture.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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The union wages from 1992 to 2003 went up 13.5% while executive pay at UAW employers went up 22% in that same period..
Neither number is all that big on the surface. Most companies with union representation receive cost of living raises yearly. From reading the link page it seems that the executive pay was way out of line but since it is a UAW web site I'm not sure. I do know that when we are talking about millions in salary to start any increase is huge in dollar amounts. The practice of huge bonuses for executives when the company is losing money is nuts. Also when an exec does a bad job most companies have it written into their contracts buyout clauses. Some companies do give severance pay but when it's not based on millions of dollars of salary it tends to be much smaller.
My opinion is if you want to give bonuses make them stock options or plain stock. Everyone will benefit if the company does well or nobody will get anything (short term) if they do badly.
#gmstrong
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If I came across as not blaming management for decades of poor decisions, let me correct that now.
They have done a poor job....but the overriding factor is the labor involved in making cars is way out of line.
In most business plans, labor and benefits are about the only thing you can control...you have little control over raw material costs. Little control over insurance costs, utility costs etc, etc.
So without the ability to control labor and benefit costs, in many ways, auto company executives have had little chance to run a business that could sustain over time.
Anyway...the golden goose is done. The white collar jobs are few and the blue collar jobs are few.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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jc.. http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/ticker/...28&Symbol=FDETROIT (AP) - United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger says the Bush administration and Congress need to come to an agreement on aid for the domestic auto industry because "inaction is simply not an option." At a news conference in Detroit Thursday, Gettelfinger acknowledged there is disagreement about how aid should be given, but "both the Bush administration and congressional leaders agree that immediate assistance is needed, and the cost of not acting would be devastating." Top Senate Democrats have canceled plans for a vote on a bill to carve $25 billion in new loans for automakers out of the $700 billion Wall Street rescue fund. Democratic and Republican senators from auto industry states are trying to reach an alternative deal, but it's unlikely it will be considered until after Thanksgiving. Gettelfinger says without help, one or more of the Detroit Three automakers could collapse by the end of this year, and "the costs that would come from this are just too great."
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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It comes down to what I was saying Pdawg,, the two entities involved (labor and management) have both messed this thing up. Neither has anyone else to blame but themselves..
But that's yesterdays news. if by some stretch they can sit down, define what a sustainable auto industry model looks like,, no matter what that might actually be, then I'm all for loaning them the money they want,, and frankly more if they need it to pull off the plan.
I just have some doubts the union will go along with it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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If I came across as not blaming management for decades of poor decisions, let me correct that now.
They have done a poor job....but the overriding factor is the labor involved in making cars is way out of line.
In most business plans, labor and benefits are about the only thing you can control...you have little control over raw material costs. Little control over insurance costs, utility costs etc, etc.
I disagree Peen... The other things they have control over, which are vitally important are.. pushing the envelope in design instead of sucking up the rear.... getting new technology into the cars and to market in less than 7 years... improved production capabilities through upgrades and automation instead of relying on outdated factories...
yebat' Putin
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A sustainable model is one in which you don't have two sides making decisions.
Management is locked into a faulty business model and will never be able to make decisions that truly work.
Labor needs to be out of the picture completely so companies can then tell it's employees what needs to happen if they all want to survive.
They aren't going to create a package where people working there make $6 a hour and a plate of beans a day.
There are industry standards in place by what their competitors pay.
To be competitive, they will have to pay that rate .
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I agree that management needs to be able to deal directly with the employees to fix the problem..
I also bet that the Big 3 are EXTREMELY top heavy when it comes to a bunch of unneccesary VPs and Senior Execs pulling HUGE salaries and bonuses and really adding very little...
yebat' Putin
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I disagree Peen... The other things they have control over, which are vitally important are.. pushing the envelope in design instead of sucking up the rear.... getting new technology into the cars and to market in less than 7 years... improved production capabilities through upgrades and automation instead of relying on outdated factories...
I considered that, but much of that is still hampered by the COL.
The cost of their cars is where it needs to be in relation to other brands.
The labor hamstrings everything....unless they started selling cars for more.
I don't have access to profits of say Ford compared to Toyota....but I would say the US companies are less...technology costs money...money in research engineering, and money in the final gizmo they come up with......no doubt they have had to cut....I mean the job is to direct the company to a profitable bottom line...they have cut everything they can...interiors are a chep plastic, body steel is razor thin compared to 30 years ago...the list goes on.
I do understand business, so when I say the company has little control over various items, it doesn't mean loss of all control.
You can't discount the labor and beneits...when normal companies need to tighten things to bolster profits...the first place they go is the labor line because they have 100% control of that(with-in reason..they can't pay less than minimum as an example)....and that is something Detroit doesn't have.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I also bet that the Big 3 are EXTREMELY top heavy when it comes to a bunch of unneccesary VPs and Senior Execs pulling HUGE salaries and bonuses and really adding very little...
I don't disagree with that.....but I would bet that isn't what is burying the company.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Exactly, they can't even pull some folks in off the line and inform them they need to lay them off without 6 months of negotiations with the Union and compensations.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,065
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,065 |
Well I'm leaning towards no bailout at this point. Let them file file chapter 11 (or is it 13) and reorganize like other companies and industries have done. If that doesn't work maybe then we should reconsider loans.
I am not an expert on any of this so my opinion can easily be changed if I get more facts.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
http://www.nbc-2.com/newswatch.shtml#1523Pols demand biz plan from Big 3 - Updated: 8 minutes ago WASHINGTON (AP): Congressional officials say Democratic leaders have decided to put off a bailout vote for the auto industry until December and will insist that the Big 3 first come up with a plan showing how the money would help transform their industry. An announcement is expected later in the day in the Capitol, where top Democrats in the House and Senate have been meeting. The officials who described the developments did so on condition of anonymity, saying they were not authorized to disclose them. The big auto companies - General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC - have been seeking government loans totaling $25 billion to stay in business until spring. Critics want to make sure the companies will use the money to transform their industry into one that is more competitive.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,958
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,958 |
Quote:
http://www.nbc-2.com/newswatch.shtml#1523
Pols demand biz plan from Big 3 - Updated: 8 minutes ago
WASHINGTON (AP): Congressional officials say Democratic leaders have decided to put off a bailout vote for the auto industry until December and will insist that the Big 3 first come up with a plan showing how the money would help transform their industry.
An announcement is expected later in the day in the Capitol, where top Democrats in the House and Senate have been meeting. The officials who described the developments did so on condition of anonymity, saying they were not authorized to disclose them.
The big auto companies - General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC - have been seeking government loans totaling $25 billion to stay in business until spring. Critics want to make sure the companies will use the money to transform their industry into one that is more competitive.
OMG
A sensible response from Congress? How the hell did that happen?????
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,958
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,958 |
Quote:
according to the above (clearly designed for union employees) The union wages from 1992 to 2003 went up 13.5% while executive pay at UAW employers went up 22% in that same period..
Well, the voters of Ohio voted in a Constitutional amendment a few years back that took minimum wage from $5.15 to its current $7.00 per hour. In January, that rises to $7.30. That means that in less than 4 years, minimum wage will have increased $2.15 ..... or roughly 40% over the 2005 level.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,554
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,554 |
Quote:
Well I'm leaning towards no bailout at this point. Let them file file chapter 11 (or is it 13) and reorganize like other companies and industries have done. If that doesn't work maybe then we should reconsider loans.
I've done some research, not nearly as much as is needed to really know. But logically, I don't see how our economy doesn't go into a full blown recession if the Big Three go down.
Think about it, 1 in every 10 jobs is Auto industry related. How many people are working in the USA right now.. 100 million,,, 150 million.. 10 to 15 millions jobs is a lot to lose and more importantly, that's a whole lotta buying power going away also.
There go retail sales across the board.... which means even more jobs lost.
I don't see the Government letting them fail... But what would bother me most is if they give them money and don't demand and monitor changes...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711 |
Quote:
Well, the voters of Ohio voted in a Constitutional amendment a few years back that took minimum wage from $5.15 to its current $7.00 per hour. In January, that rises to $7.30. That means that in less than 4 years, minimum wage will have increased $2.15 ..... or roughly 40% over the 2005 level.
don't talk sense ytown 
you know nobody wants to make minimum wage....
if we were all making that much cash we wouldn't care....problem is most people aren't.....
there isn't a person in this forum that could honestly say that they would be ok with working for less...
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum GM plant's closing like death
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