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Normally I don't start posts,but I thought this had to be addressed.
Last year the OL was a strength. This year ?
Can missing Tucker be all that much of a difference?
We need an overhaul IMO
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If there's another Joe Thomas type lineman in this draft the Browns need to take him.
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To be more specific?
IMO the right side of the OL has sucked big time.
and I'm not all that impressed by Steiny at this point.
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Quote:
If there's another Joe Thomas type lineman in this draft the Browns need to take him.
Maybe next year... This year will be mostly defense. We need BETTER LB's.... We need football players... Guys that make plays....
The offense just had an off year... They can rebound.
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Hadnot: Backup.
Fraley: Soon-to-be backup.
Tucker: Soon-to-be backup because of durability.
Shaffer: Chance to start, but little room for screwups.
Steinbach: If he's healthy, he's a starter.
Thomas: Starter.
Let's see.............yup, three new starters looks like a pretty necessary overhaul.
The question is going to be can we afford it, knowing that we have some impending free agents and major holes on defense.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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You gotta put your money in defense this year....
With the exception of the Colts and Patriots... You have to have a great defense to be a contender every year. If we pick up two LB's on Day 2.. I think we will see a huge difference in defensive play.
Then in 2010, you get your offensive lineman and/or running back.
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We need LB's.
But I agree with anyone that says our OL is not a finished product!
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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I'd like to see a good RG acquisition. Get rid of Hadnot.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Hadnot's not great, but he's serviceable if we had a decent RT. Shaffer is just not good. How does he get trucked by undersized DEs? Not that it showed much promise, but he ruined any shot Frye had at a career getting bulldozed by James Harrison on the first 3rd down of the season last year. After that, Frye completely lost his mind. Shaffer's first game as a Brown he blew the opening-play PA touchdown pass to Edwards on a holding penalty. He got trucked by Mathis to injure Anderson. The Browns prefer to run left behind their pass-blocking LT and LG instead of behind him. If you're looking for problems on the O-Line, Shaffer's your best bet.
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Our offense has the ability to score with the line we have right at this moment.
But our defense can't stop anybody.
It's really a no brainer to me what we have to do this off-season. We should focus both of our first two picks strictly on defense, maybe sign a few Fa's on the defensive side of the ball and then sign and draft depth and eventual replacements on the offensive line. Maybe add another possesion receiver as well.
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Quote:
Our offense has the ability to score with the line we have right at this moment.
Really? What are they waiting for? 
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We need to pick up a couple O-lineman,
LT = J.Thomas
LG= Stiney...Has been hurt all year
C = FA
RG = Hank....nothing wrong with Hank, people need to get off his behind.
RT = FA or Draft
Tucker will retire or let go, it's time, Thanks Tuck, your a class act, Hadnot a back-up, Lenny F. back-up Mckinny back-up.
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RG = Hank....nothing wrong with Hank, people need to get off his behind.
So why did u move him to Guard?
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This is a tough nut. On one hand we got the Giants showing us how a no name OL can play this here game by having continuity and flow and playing as a UNIT.
I am disappointed cause this was year two with JT, ES, FH, Hadnot (new addition as our backup being used) n KS.
Is it cause of one guy? Possibly Hadnot is a backup and wasn't brought here to be our starter just more power than McKinney to man the RG spot. ES playing hurt all year. I don't know too many OLmen who don't play hurt all season. Its part of the game. Unless its a Back thing then there is nothing you can do.
I think its because we don't know who we are as a team. Chud a young coordinator thinks it is so important to have 30 runs and 30 passes that this is balance. No, what an OL needs is motivation. They need blocking schemes that they can bring to the other teams. To feed off of and get rewarded. They would like to pound the guy in front of them or better yet get on the move and pound somebody in the Zone blocking scheme. But we were off this year and have not made any team pay. But then I see a game like the Broncos - where we are running at 5 yards a clip and then only run 10 times...all in the name of BALANCE.
Also there was a change at QB...the OL become very attached to their QB. They felt demoted when DA became demoted. Hey, they liked him - He was humble, he didn't hold onto the ball long...he was named our starter from DAY 1 and the OL bought into it. I think there definitely was a mental lapse and pressure as DA was struggling and then forced out of his starting position. Meanwhile I saw a sigh of relief from the Skilled players regarding the change.
So I do have to question the leadership of the OL...Hank this falls on your head cause Tucker wasn't there so you were the leader. I think Fraley didn't embrace the change as well as the Games leading up to it as the pressure for DA to produce was mounting.
Now keep in mind when Savage started to build this thing...Who he got. And Why!
Fraley has been as solid a find for us as we could have gotten but he is no Bentley.
Although Faine is playing well - the Fish that got away was Shaun O'Hara...he's the poster boy of the defunct regard to the OL that we had here (Butch's era) He played 3 games for us at Center and played well, I know I was impressed. And when all were telling us how he sucked...I kept telling all the guy is not a Guard, he's a Center playing out of position. Well now he's a Pro-Bowl Center I'm sure (if he's not then something is wrong with the system for Pro-Bowl) and he truly is the Fish that got away. But look at the Colts. They are such a different team without Saturday.
If the Jets Woody becomes available anytime soon...we got to jump on it. He's playing RG there...but could be a darn good Center for our Division.
Sowells - if I'm the OL coach I'm trying to convert him to a Center cause thats the only way he can help us...if not we have to rid ourselves of that dead weight.
So we can always use upgrades.
Shaffer - we can moan about him all we want but he would be hard to upgrade the only upcoming FA that I would like would be Marvel Smith...and play him at RT. But I'm sure some team will throw LT money at him...but for us he would be PERFECT!
I'd love for us to get a slobber knocker RT - I like the kid Loadholt from Oklahoma and he should be there in the 2nd maybe 3rd round. But he could play RG from day one to get use to the NFL game...but he's got Power...Quick first step and a nice Punch. When he's ready he can take the RT position away from Shaffer.
Shaffer - lol  like Sowells, if he can't convert to Center - I don't want him here but not until we have a ready replacement.
Another kid that I wish us to look at for the 2nd day picks...but these kids that I like have a tendency to shoot up the boards by the time draft day pulls around.
Vaughn Lesuma, Wash. St. - I think he could be a sleeper in this draft!
But we also have to consider with our 2nd pick.
Alex Mack, Jonathan Luigs - if they are there for the Center position.
I can go all day and have us pick OLmen. But it would have to be not a reach pick but dictated to us by who is available and when.
OT, OG or C...the best deal for us in the 2nd round hopefully. We have to bring new blood. ES has had his durability issues, Fraley will only be as good as those surrounding him, Tucker can't be depended on. Shaffer is OK at his best.
We got to bring in somebody every year from the draft...some new blood. FA???? always will be an overpayment. You do that if there is one spot holding you down. But now we got NFL reps across the board. This is a legit OL, we just need to infuse new blood into it...almost on a yearly basis!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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So why did u move him to Guard?
I believe at this point in his career he's better suited for guard, along with being pretty darn quick for a big man who can get down field with the best of them. Now if we go & sign a FA Guard we leave him at Center, but I do think he's better suited at guard. Just my opinon, based on aboslutly nothing
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Every year we need to pick a O-lineman in the first three rounds...every year, based upon need VS draft talent you choose which round you take them in. If we picked a O-linemen in the first round every year, I'd never complain, wouldnt make sence but I see alot worse picks that make no sence what so ever and teams still do it....
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Clay...Hank at RG???
Sorry, might as well ask him to play LT...lol
We are talking about (We I mean in the press analysis of our team) how Hank is a negative and just can't handle somebody over his head....So you say put him at RG where the MOST POWERFUL DT's are and would be over his head all the time??? Except 3-4 teams.
3-4 Teams would go 4-3 against us and take advantage of that mismatch...
JMHO but I'd go delete that cause you will be mocked by many. Sorry. 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
JMHO but I'd go delete that cause you will be mocked by many. Sorry.
 Mocked for my opinon, 1st of all do i really care what other think of my opinon...NO, if they dont agree fine, my life isnt gonna be ruinned becuase of a comment somebody makes to me on a message board....  My opinon isnt right or wrong, it's mine and if people dont agree even you fine, maybe I dont agree with yours, dosent mean your right, dosent mean your wrong, just means you have a diffrent opinon.
2nd...delete it, NO...I dont delete my opinons just to fit in or conform to what others what me to believe, or because I dont agree with thier thinking. my ego isnt so low that I need it boostered on a Browns message board. and I'm not so arrogent I need others on this board to think the way I think, or wish to change thier way of thinking.,
Sorry Eotab I respect your opinon but I still think Hank is better suited for guard.
P.S. Happy Birthday 
Last edited by ClayM57; 12/12/08 09:43 AM.
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"my ego isnt so low that I need it boostered on a Browns message board. and I'm not so arrogent I need others on this board to think the way I think, or wish to change thier way of thinking."
Sorry you think that way...just trying to help as I make my share of Brain farts too. And there is no debate....Hank at RG
Ce la vie
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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The right side is still not where it needs to be.. With Tucker over there as a Guard, I think it made Shaffer look better.. with McKinney or Hadnot,, no so much..
Interestingly, the only complete game we played and won this year was the one with Tucker in the lineup.. I think thats your answer right there..
As for Stieny,, he's been playing injured all year .. I wouldn't worry about him unless he can't get healthy... then that's a problem..
notice,, as stieny goes, so does Thomas... Joe appeared to be a stud last season.. he's still playing well, but not as good as last season.. what's the difference? Stieny isn't 100%.
So, finding a replacement for Tucker (cause you can't count on him anymore) and finding more than adaquate depth for the guards may well be as important as finding some LB's..
Whoever is in charge of that task has his hands full next off season.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I told everybody before the season started that we were going to miss Tucker more than people realized.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Hadnot: Backup.
Fraley: Soon-to-be backup.
Tucker: Soon-to-be backup because of durability.
Shaffer: Chance to start, but little room for screwups.
Steinbach: If he's healthy, he's a starter.
Thomas: Starter.
Remedy:
Cut Sowells..
Get a OT/OG roadgrater
Draft a center..
Fixed.. 
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First we need to decide on what type of offense we are going to run. Until then it is hard to say what fixes need to be made. There are some studs in this draft class.
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All Pro
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Quote:
Hadnot: Backup.
Fraley: Soon-to-be backup.
Tucker: Soon-to-be backup because of durability.
Shaffer: Chance to start, but little room for screwups.
Steinbach: If he's healthy, he's a starter.
Thomas: Starter.
Remedy:
Cut Sowells..
Get a OT/OG roadgrater
Draft a center..
Fixed..
This makes to much sense to work. 
Go Irish!
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Well that is true....one of the things that has to be addressed is the RB spot..because if you want a power runner..he should be able to have cut back ability..you still want linemen who are athletic enough to pull and trap..our left side is set..it's the right side thats out of whack.
Get a combo RT/RG who is big enough to open holes but can get to the next level and take out a LB.
As you said theres a lot of linemen in this draft..
I think we need more of a power center and there's two in the draft that fit that bill.
Center
Max Unger Oregon
- Arguably the most athletic center in the draft. Maybe that's why he's being considered at LT still (where he played his first two years for the Ducks)
Jonathan Luigs Arkansas
- Maybe not the best athlete and needs some slight technique tweaks, but he's a big strong physical pivot who can open some holes in the run game.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/12/08 12:13 PM.
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NRTU
I was looking at FA centers that might come cheap and a name popped out at me.
Jake Grove center for the Raiders. Now we all know the raiders have been a pretty descent running team the past few years (not so much this year).
So I decided to go onto a Raiders board and ask around and find out what they thought of Jake Grove. They said that he was a pretty good center and that he seemed to do very well in a zone blocking scheme but when they tried a power running scheme he seemed to struggle.
The guy is only a 5 year pro and he has obviously not had much help in Oakland. So depending on what coach we bring in and what scheme he would want to run I might take a good look at Grove. Could come cheap and with some help he might be a steal for us. imo
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Completely agree. Arkansas has a couple guys on that line I wouldnt mind seeing in a browns uniform. Beast in run blocking and good enough in pass blocking.
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notice,, as stieny goes, so does Thomas... Joe appeared to be a stud last season.. he's still playing well, but not as good as last season.. what's the difference? Stieny isn't 100%.
No, the difference is that last year we played few good defenses. This year, it's been nothing BUT good defenses.
Thomas has had his tough spots against all-pro defensive ends this year. That isn't on Stein.
Remember, LT's play on an island, and are the least effected offensive linemen when it comes to who's playing next to them.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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The " OL " ... Now where starting to talk about real Football .. I just don't get much College ball down here ; so I love it when You , Attack , Eo ,Toad and so on start talking about specific players .. Boy did I miss on McNiel or what ??? You have the right to say " I told you so " ...
And yep , we gots to work on the Right Side and maybe Center this off season .. Just can't do it all in one year ...
Last edited by waterdawg; 12/12/08 02:12 PM.
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Quote:
No, the difference is that last year we played few good defenses.
So, you are saying then that stieny being hurt has no bearing on Thomas?
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Remember, LT's play on an island, and are the least effected offensive linemen when it comes to who's playing next to them.
Wow,, While I don't doubt that is true,, why is it that an excuse we heard for Shaffer and Shelton over on the LT spot was that the guy next them is horrible..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Why would I say "I Told you so"? about McNeil ?
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/12/08 02:46 PM.
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So, you are saying then that stieny being hurt has no bearing on Thomas?
I'm saying it has far less than what you believe.
When Thomas has been beaten this year, he's been beaten by his own man when he has him all by himself. Stein has nothing to do with him in that regard.
When Freeney bull-rushed him and caused the fumble against the Colts, Stein had nothing to do with that.
When Thomas was beaten twice by Mario Williams, Stein had nothing to do with that.
What you're talking is pertinent with the other four guys, but LT's play on an island, and when Thomas has been beaten, he's been on that island.
Quote:
Wow,, While I don't doubt that is true,, why is it that an excuse we heard for Shaffer and Shelton over on the LT spot was that the guy next them is horrible..
The people who know what they are talking about know better. 
To beat Thomas, you REALLY have to be good. To beat Shelton and Shaffer when they were playing left tackle, all you had to be was a guy.
That's why they aren't left tackles anymore.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Thanks for clearing that up,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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but didn't the Iggles try Hank at guard and he failed?
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Hank has been Johnny On The Spot for us. We were in trouble and he filled the role. But, the only reason we got him is because he became expendable in Philly. And so, like the iggles, until we find someone better he's our guy.
AL 29 76 14 R_K
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Which brings us back to the question: How long is he our guy?
My answer to that is the sooner he's replaced, the better.
I view Fraley in the exact same light as I viewed Andra Davis two seasons ago. I stated we wouldn't be a good defense until he's replaced. My opinion of the Fraley is the same. We can get better as a unit, but we won't be a good unit until he's replaced.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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exactly. We always seem to find a cure and get rid of the starter from the year before. We never have anybody beat out anybody it seems. Dilfer didnt beat out holcomb, garcia didnt beat out dil, anderson didnt even beat out frye!lol
Its happened all over our team.
I`m good with Baker... Playoffs is good enough for me.
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You bring a QB to an OL fight... Curses, may a Camel take a dump on your Christmas tree... lol
And here in lies what I've talked about and have stated that I love what Savage has done with our team.
He has given us an ACTUAL STARTING NFL OL. Upgradeable? Sure, but nobody can deny they are a legit Unit.
Now you can start the process of bringing in draft players and having them eventually beating out a veteran OK at best starter.
In the past we never did have one. So we were forever shopping and replacing...most of the time (especially with the other builders of our Expansion team prior to Savage) we would do so by just bringing in any warm body with experience and maybe 3 starts.
Now those warm bodies would do nothing to make a dent into our OL starters...they would have a tough time cracking our depth. This is what has been stated about Continuity...this is how teams grow and get better and better.
This is the Shell of a team that most new Coaching staffs inherit and come in with a 3 year plan...not a 5 year plan...we were on the 5 year plan cause there was no Shell/Foundation to speak of.
Upgrade on Fraley...Sure, but its not that easily done. He's no Bum.
Upgrade on Shaffer....Sure, but its not that easily done. He's no Bum
Upgrade on Hadnot...Sure, he was brought in here as depth - someone with more promise can be done pretty easily, if we consider him the returning starter - not Tucker. I think Tucker will be crowned our starting RG from the onset of Camps!
But we are in a good state with our OL. When I say that I'm not saying to stand pat. But I am saying now you Draft. And not 6th rounders. You draft one in the top 4 rounds with talent, groom them and plug them in. If they are gotten to be groomed for RT - they can make the transition with a year or two at RG. And basically that is the type I hope we go after!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)
