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Brownsfansince79,
I can see why people might like Cowher as a coach but he comes with certain strings attached. He wants control of the personnel decision..aka like a GM. As far as coaching, remember, he might be able to motivate but people have to remember, he had D.Lebeau as his D-Coord and other good coaches with him so its not like Cowher had some bums he coached with over those years.
As far as coaches who were more animated, most of the coaches in the league are not the animated type. But we will see if he really wants to come out of retirement.
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Your thoughts on all of this?
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Don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to legitimize bringing Cowher in or anything. I'd rather we didn't bring him in. I was just throwing out why I think a lot of people want him.
But, I will say that my mindset has been, and continues to be, that it doesn't matter who we bring in. I just want to win. If it means Cowher, if it means Holmgren, if it means Marty, if it means Spagnuolo, if it means Urban Meyer, I don't care. I just want to win.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I find this whole thing very depressing as well as kind of exciting.  I'm thinking back to when they first brought on Savage and Crennel and how they said all the right things. Then there was the excitement of bringing in JJ and Bentley and the fact that someone was finally addressing the OL issues. I really bought into the great feeling of the time and thought we were truly going to head in the right direction with what I was seeing. This is a real disappointment that it ends like this. It's always with some excited anticipation that we all view the new people coming in....and a lot of us will probably buy into that as well. Hopefully this time it will be warranted. 
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I know you were not legitimizing Cowher, just responding to the question. I think as Cleve fans, we have to be smart enough to know that its a combination of things that make a franchise successful, not just one person. And it starts from the top, Owner -> GM or Pres -> Coach..etc. IF some of those points are off or not inline, the franchise as a whole will not be successful. The teams that are in the playoffs this year, most are built with a separate GM/coach role. ( I know the eagles might be the exception). So do we want the dual GM/Coach role or the more successful separate GM/coach role?
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Let me preface this by saying that I don't want Cowher if he requires "full control" Butch Davis style. I'm all for the chin if he comes with a Colbert or similar guy who handles the front-office and scouting/personnel.
Your comment that Cowher inherited 6 pro bowlers sounds awfully similar to what the incoming head coach would get here... Considering the number of players who were pro bowlers last season and who will most likely be her next year, I could find quite a few potential 2009 pro bowlers out of this group: Rogers, Winslow, Edwards, Cribbs, Thomas, D'Qwell, Steinbach, Dawson, Wimbley. I'm not promising anything out of those 8, but is it pretty reasonable that 6 of them could have pro-bowl type numbers? I think it is.
Go Browns!!
RIP RK
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I agree..I'm excited about seeing who comes in and rights all this mess.. I'm sick of the losing and dysfunction this team has had from the top down. While I liked some of the things I saw..I didn't like some of the other things..and I don't need to specify right now.. What needs to happen now is for the right GM/HC to be brought in and they have to answer to someone higher up.. As far as buying into it..when we get a GM who can outdraft some of us..I'll buy into it 
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.. As far as buying into it..when we get a GM who can outdraft some of us..I'll buy into it.. " ... Now , ain't that the truth ! 
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That is the problem, 79. Too many people want emotion and are using emotions to cloud their own judgement.
I think the biggest thing I like about Cowher was that he took the players he was given and it certainly appears he got the most out of them.. something that RAC hadn't been able to do. That to me is the reason I want him.
As for him taking over the whole Shebang.,,,, in general, GM and Coach are two seperate jobs to my way of thinking.. trying to do both hasn't been successful often... I'd rather that didn't happen
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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If it means Cowher, if it means Holmgren, if it means Marty, if it means Spagnuolo, if it means Urban Meyer, I don't care. I just want to win.
That why fans want Cowher, not because he's a screaming emotional coach. Fans want a COACH, someone who actaully takes control of the players.
Cowher is a leader of men, he knows what it takes to manage NFL players and what it takes to win....You can't win with a scout and grandfather...you need leadership from the top to the field. We've had NONE, not a freaking ounce...RAC runs his country club, Phil sends emails to ticked fans.
Back to Cowher
Can he be a GM too? He's been a very sucessful HC...so he knows what he needs...he knows how to manage the team. He knows football. He isnt a good DC or OC thats always been riding shotgun..this guy has LED men to sucsess.
If thats all Cowher demands is total control, hes in here by the weekend...it comes down to whether or not he wants this gig. Not whether Randy wants to give full control out.
Also..Cowher isnt stupid, hes not gonna go it alone, he'll surround himself with good football people, unlike the current(or former) coach. Cowher will pull in alot coaching talent and personell talent if he wants this job.
The best thing possible is that we get Cowher...finally..this team will have direction, leadership, attitude, discpline, coaching, and an identity. All of which, we have not had since the team has been back.
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RAC was very subdued, never showed much emotion. When we didn't get results, you start to feel that he can't motivate players. Cowher, on the other hand, was always ranting and raving and getting in guy's faces. We felt he could motivate players.
79...You need to understand, all that ranting and raving is not done without purpose.
All that ranting and raving may look like someone who is out of control and going crazy on the sidelines, but that is not what it is at all.
Coaches who rant and rave all the time or nearly every play are not successful.
Coaches who don't rant nor rave at all or very frequently usually are not very successful either.
Those coaches who rant and rave at players or officials or whom ever...just some of the time are doing so out of a passion to teach.
Yep, they are trying to teach and as crazy as it sounds, ranting and raving is very effective in teaching football players as long as the coach is doing it out of love for his players and a passion for the game so many of us love, called football.
Cowher had a passion for the game and a willingness and drive to teach the game to his players. Cowher has a way about him and a demand that his players perform at their best. In the end, the most successful coaches are those who can teach the game and have his team prepared for battle.
So the next time you see a coach ranting and raving on the sidelines, try to realize that coach could be just trying to get the most out of that player or his team because he knows they can do better.
IMO, Cowher's coaching style is a balance between emotion and intelligence of knowing football players and what makes them excel. That is why some coaches can take the same players and win with them when another coach couldn't.
Another important point about that ranting and raving...if you speak to the players who played for and excelled as players under such a coach, they realized their coach loved them and all the ranting and raving was not to diminish them as humans, but to teach them and motivate them as football players.
As my high school coach told me, when I stop yelling at you, that is when you as a player should worry, because that is when I have given up on you realizing I can not teach you the game football.
In short, ranting and raving is good if done by someone who knows why he is ranting and raving.
BTW, I should not exclude women as cocahes who rant and rave at their players or refs or their entire teams...you ever watch some of those women who coach basketball at the college level?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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My feelings are a bit subdued...on one hand I wanted to see Phil go through the process and get this mess corrected..so on that I wonder if Lerner moved prematurely..
On the other hand..all this change and losing seasons and the crap that goes on during the year is lost on me..I'm literally sick of it..
It was a move that was inevitable...Savage saw that they were tied together 2 years ago.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think the biggest thing I like about Cowher was that he took the players he was given and it certainly appears he got the most out of them.. something that RAC hadn't been able to do. That to me is the reason I want him.
Bingo, Daman, Bingo.
Every year it seemed Cowher got the most out of his players. Every year they would lose guys to free agency and not replace them with like quality. Then he would go out and win 11 games again.
Even though the players all "love" playing for Romeo, he could not get them to give forth full effort for an entire game.
We need a head coach, someone to light a fire under our guys and get them to go full effort from snap to whistle for 60 freakin' minutes. Cowher is that kind of coach, and that's why I want him. If there is another guy like that, I'd want him, too.
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With the damage Phil Savage has done in Cleveland,it will be hard for him to land another job in the capacity he had in Berea.
Phil has burned alot bridges here. The Winslow and e-mail incident are just a fraction of what Phil to embarass the organization. There are some incidents that might make the light of day in the future,but not now.
Its funny what a year difference makes.
Last year at this time he was applauded for being "schrewd,a genius and built a great foundation for this team"
Now 99% of the posters on here are glad to see him go.
I bet Romeo finds a job before Phil......
I wouldn't be surprised if Savage never works in the NFL again.
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Its funny what a year difference makes.
Last year at this time he was applauded for being "schrewd,a genius and built a great foundation for this team"
Now 99% of the posters on here are glad to see him go.
Count me in the 1% then I guess... unless Randy knows something I don't, I think Savage did a pretty decent job.
yebat' Putin
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I think Savage did do some good,but his record vs the AFC North I believe is what really did him in plus no playoff appearance.
If the Browns had made the playoffs last year,and despite the debacle this season,its possible Lerner would have let him be the GM until 2009.
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Quote:
Its funny what a year difference makes.
Last year at this time he was applauded for being "schrewd,a genius and built a great foundation for this team"
Now 99% of the posters on here are glad to see him go.
Count me in the 1% then I guess... unless Randy knows something I don't, I think Savage did a pretty decent job.
That makes two of us.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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There's alot that may or may not come out. If it comes out, you'll hear how Savage was trying to control everything and ther was a huge division between him and RAC....to the point that Savage was in on coaches meetings and insisting certain players play. He also didn't draft to fit the scheme and expected RAC to make it work. This was all new news to me as the rift was kept quiet because RAC had too much class to let it be known.
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Oh, I have no idea of things that went on behind the scenes. If things went on in any manner as you describe, I can understand it.
I just meant from the standpoint of overall talent. In that regard, I think we're much better off than we were four years ago.
And if you check out what I quoted and agreed with, it pretty much said that.
" Unless Lerner knows something I don't"
Which I figure he must, or I think Phil would still be here.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I understand, I was just trying to give everyone a clearer picture
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Quote:
There's alot that may or may not come out. If it comes out, you'll hear how Savage was trying to control everything and ther was a huge division between him and RAC....to the point that Savage was in on coaches meetings and insisting certain players play. He also didn't draft to fit the scheme and expected RAC to make it work. This was all new news to me as the rift was kept quiet because RAC had too much class to let it be known.
I read where Lerner and Savage had a difference of opinion on management style and ultimately that led to his dismissal. Kind of inline with what you are saying here.
But the thing that gets me about this defense of RAC that Savage didn't draft for his scheme ... he still tried to run the scheme anyway to prove a point. That's what pisses me off the most about him. So Savage shat on him and didn't give him what he wanted. Well, RAC sure showed him.
This isn't to bash RAC or to defend Savage ... as a matter of fact, I'm glad they are both gone.
But they both put their own agendas above getting wins for the Cleveland Browns, and I'm sick and tired of hearing what a class act RAC was/is when he put his own self-interest first.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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But they both put their own agendas above getting wins for the Cleveland Browns, and I'm sick and tired of hearing what a class act RAC was/is when he put his own self-interest first.
I think the biggest problem was a difference in philosophy moreso than egos (although it is starting to look like Phil was a real tool to work with). That is why I am hoping Lerner let's Pioli hire his own HC. Imo this FO was doomed from the start when Lerner and Collins had pretty much made up their mind regarding RAC before Phil was even hired. I really hope he has learned his lesson through all of this.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Savage's ego was growing at an alarming rate, Blaming the teams failure not on his disisions but on RAC coaching and Lerners handcuffing him with a spending limit, How could this genuis work under those conditions with sub-par people. He needed more power more control, not less. Randy saw this and said nope, your fired.
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There's alot that may or may not come out. If it comes out, you'll hear how Savage was trying to control everything and ther was a huge division between him and RAC....to the point that Savage was in on coaches meetings and insisting certain players play. He also didn't draft to fit the scheme and expected RAC to make it work. This was all new news to me as the rift was kept quiet because RAC had too much class to let it be known.
I won't dispute it, because I was starting to sense something was amiss..it was like Phil was starting to control things he shouldn't have starting with DA..the drafting part stuck in my crawl a lot..the fact he didn't do more for the defense to upgrade the corners..and basically told Rac to roll with it..
Rishuz..you don't get it..Phil is supposed to get players specific to his scheme..and from the first draft he hasn't done it..I was one (among others)who complained about a lack of direction after the second round..he drafted guys who weren't going to compete for a starter spot..more like ST players..
It seems each year he deviated from the process of drafting 34 front seven players..the fact that shows in several drafts..Wimbley should never have rated as high as Ngata because his production in college wasn't stellar..but Opie really wanted him..I remember a poster on another board say something about weakening your division rival by taking someone they needed..which in reality we needed..he actually thought he fleeced Ozzie but he was taken himself..
He didn't value linemen very high as he said 34 linemen can be had late in the draft..he didn't go after the best tweeners available ..I didn't like the jump to take Jackson..he coulda stayed pat and gotten a good tweener to add ..
I didn't quite like the way he squandered draft picks when he supposedly coveted them himself..
One of the things I harped on was after Dilpickle left , Phil didn't do enough to stablize the QB position..there were a number of FA QB's he could have brought in and it would have settled that position down..other teams brought guys who were out as backups..
There's more to dwell on and it gives me a clearer picture..now that I know he was insisting on certain players to play over guys who were vets..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/30/08 09:50 AM.
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I was not on the RAC band wagon from the beginning .... Having said that > I was never impressed with Savage as a GM or some kind of draft Guru >> Have said over and over and over again that " Savage ain't all that and a bag of chips " Ok kinda average Gm... I know many a Dawg on this board who shows up year in and year out with a better draft .. Shoot I believe mine have been better and I am not near as knowlegable as a bunch on the Board .. As has been discussed over and over again > How do you draft a player that the Coach tells you " Dosn't fit the scheme " is playing ???? The final say on the 53 man squad is something I don't get
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Savage was building a team as if he was the coach....almost like he wanted to be the coach...I said the same thing 3-4 years ago.
I am glad Romeo is gone, but I am glad Savage got the ax first. I think that was Randy's way of telling RAC he doesn't think he was the only problem, or possibly even the biggest problem.
I think when Randy let Romeo go there was displeasure in making that move, and from what I gather was in a face to face meeting...something you do for someone you respect...a way to let them know it wasn't personal and a chance for you to tell them you will help them any way you can.
By all reports I saw, Savage was informed by telephone. A rather cold and impersonal way of terminating someone...usually reserved for people you really dislike and just don't want to see anymore.
Just my observation.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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lol.. If he was fired face to face, Savage probably would have gone crazy. Haha... Lerner is a smart man. 
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I think the biggest problem was a difference in philosophy moreso than egos (although it is starting to look like Phil was a real tool to work with). That is why I am hoping Lerner let's Pioli hire his own HC. Imo this FO was doomed from the start when Lerner and Collins had pretty much made up their mind regarding RAC before Phil was even hired. I really hope he has learned his lesson through all of this.
This whole thing was a mess from the start. Savage and RAC were set up to fail because they were forced to work together with different plans. Who's to say that they could not have succeeded with a different partner? I think RAC worked harder to make the best of the situation - which Lerner respected. Savage bristled against it and apparently did not work within the system.
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Didn't see this posted ... but it appears that Willie McGinnest was no Phil Savage fan ..... http://blogs.cantonrep.com/2008/12/sports/browns/see-ya-around-campus/Dec 30th, 2008 @ 7:12 pm by Steve Doerschuk Whatever his faults - and there are some he’ll need to address going into his next job - Phil Savage did the right thing in entering the locker room Sunday to shake players’ hands and thank them for their efforts. We are told that when he came to Willie McGinest’s locker and extended his hand, the linebacker and longtime Romeo Crennel associate gave him the kind of greeting that could get you in trouble, if sent as an e-mail. A contact interpreted this two ways: One, It was a reflection of why it was time for Phil to go. Two, it is an indication of why there should be no room at the inn for No. 55 next year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Didn't see this posted ... but it appears that Willie McGinnest was no Phil Savage fan .....
http://blogs.cantonrep.com/2008/12/sports/browns/see-ya-around-campus/
Dec 30th, 2008 @ 7:12 pm by Steve Doerschuk
Whatever his faults - and there are some he’ll need to address going into his next job - Phil Savage did the right thing in entering the locker room Sunday to shake players’ hands and thank them for their efforts.
We are told that when he came to Willie McGinest’s locker and extended his hand, the linebacker and longtime Romeo Crennel associate gave him the kind of greeting that could get you in trouble, if sent as an e-mail.
A contact interpreted this two ways:
One, It was a reflection of why it was time for Phil to go.
Two, it is an indication of why there should be no room at the inn for No. 55 next year.
I'm guessing that Romeo *and Willie* definitely did not like Savage. My goodness, all the bad just goes flowing out when people start getting fired.
you had a good run Hank.
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Denver is now looking for a GM, Phil sent everything else there why not himself.  Wonder why Phil's name hasnt been mentioned in any of the possible GM hiring news. ?
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I'm guessing that Romeo *and Willie* definitely did not like Savage. My goodness, all the bad just goes flowing out when people start getting fired.
Have you noticed,, Neither Phil or Romeo have said a harsh word.. Romeo kinda let it slip that a HC has to be allowed to pick his staff...but other than that.. not a negative word
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Neither Phil or Romeo have said a harsh word..
You didn't read Phil's e-mail to me...
yebat' Putin
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I meant publically
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Neither Phil or Romeo have said a harsh word..
You didn't read Phil's e-mail to me...
That was you? Then why aren't you posting on Buffalo's #$%^&*-ing board?
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I'm guessing that Romeo *and Willie* definitely did not like Savage. My goodness, all the bad just goes flowing out when people start getting fired.
Have you noticed,, Neither Phil or Romeo have said a harsh word.. Romeo kinda let it slip that a HC has to be allowed to pick his staff...but other than that.. not a negative word
It really serves no purpose and isn't the best way to get towards the top of some other teams list.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I'm guessing that Romeo *and Willie* definitely did not like Savage. My goodness, all the bad just goes flowing out when people start getting fired.
Have you noticed,, Neither Phil or Romeo have said a harsh word.. Romeo kinda let it slip that a HC has to be allowed to pick his staff...but other than that.. not a negative word
I thought it was harsh when Savage said "I put the players on paper, I dont call the plays" or something along those lines.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858 |
Legal, I hadn't heard that remark, but it kinda goes hand in hand with Romeos comment about picking his coaching staff.. the more I hear little tidbits here and there, I get the feeling that all was not rosey between RAC and Savage.. and all this time, it sure seemed as if it was.. Guess not! Still, outside of those minor digs, they have all remained relatively mum. But I'll say this,, I think it's clear who Randy Lerner feels is the real problem here.. He's willing to accept RAC back in some capacity,, but Phil can hit the road.. bye bye, don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. move along little doggy,, slither out the door and don't look back...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Savage Out as Browns GM per league
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