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Please continue the discussion in this thread.
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Just find this whole thing pretty funny........ Pioli has never been an NFL GM. Ferentz has never been an NFL HC. McDaniels has never been an NFL HC. So what some keep trying to advocate, is yet another rookie GM accompanied by another first time HC. Then, it is THEY who say the Mangini hire sounds like a repeat? Pretty funny stuff right there........... 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I'm just not seeing the utter confidence so many have in Pioli. I think Belichick is the mastermind of the NE success, not some wizard in the FO. Belichick did it in two years I think, way too fast for a FO type to be all that instrumental.
Mangini has been competent as a head coach. So he brings far fewer questions with him than any hot coordinator of the moment. I'm not sure why he is being viewed with such disfavor. Lerner wanted Cowher, Cowher didn't want to coach.
And yes, I suspect Mangini was open to the same defensive scheme and the same offense. What a catastrophe, Quinn won't have to learn a whole new offense.
I'm being sarcastic a bit..I not as opposed to Mangini..but I do have reservations..I have more on Kokinis than I do Eric..
The problem Opie created was not getting specific players for Rac to use..
I don't have the confidence that Kok can do it...we know Ozzie was the mastermind in Bmore..and Phil overrated his scouting...because if it was that great..we'd have a better defense..
Now if Kok can get those players it will elevate the defense..but of he flounders in the drafting it's gonna get worse..
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I know your just dying to know who I want for the dynamic Duo  I would like to see Marty as the Gm and then go with a Rex Ryan or a Spag. as the HC... I really think that would an interesting combination ... Give it some thought and then tell me why you hate it 
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j/c - from the old thread. Quote:
1) Are you saying you expect an owner to be able to predict the future? So we should hire Miss Cleo?
I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying, is that Lerner right now is calling all the shots in this search, but Randy is a businessman, not a football guy. If I'm not good with electrical work, I'm not going to try and re-wire my entire house myself. It doesn't matter if I've tried before, failed, read self-help books, talked to experts and maybe even learned something in the process... if it's a huge job like that, I'm not stupid enough to think I can do a good job of it myself. I'm also not too proud to realize that someone else should be doing the work if I want it done right. Apparently Randy doesn't see things that way. I have a big problem with that thinking.
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2) What do they call that when you make a mistake, then the next time you do something, you try to do something different so you don't make the same mistake? What's the word for that? It's slipping my mind.
Again, you're missing the point. If you crash your car driving on a road, are you going to avoid that road for the rest of your life because you're afraid of a car wreck, or are you going to learn to drive safer? What he should have learned from this process is that if he's going to hire people, they have to be the right people. Preferrably people who make up for his lack of knowledge. Instead, he's just avoiding the same backgrounds he's hired before and the same situations he had before and got trigger happy with Mangini before the process even finished. There's no wisdom in that. People in Davis/Savage/Romeo's situation have succeeded before and they will again... just not those specific people. Get better people and find success. What a concept.
You don't think Randy's being trigger happy, settling for love at first sight and not doing his due diligence here? Name another team with an opening that's even remotely as close to naming a replacement as we are.
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3) You said that you wished Lerner would do an extensive search, pick a GM, and let the GM do the rest. But, who's to say that he'd pick the right GM, even after that extensive search? What unforeseen events would come out of that?
There are no guarantees but generally, if you hire a guy that's had success doing something similar in the past, the odds are in their favor. Getting Pioli as your GM has a greater certainty of success than a guy like Kokinis because Pioli has functioned in a similar role in the past and has done very well with it. That's not to say he can't fail but it makes a lot more sense than the alternatives. The head of my ideal search team starts with Pioli at the top. Lerner's ideal search team apparently begins and ends with Lerner. Which do you think is more likely to succeed?
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Spectre said: Quote:
The point is, Lerner doesn't know how to build a successful NFL organization. All he knows is what not to do based on his past failures. The thing he needs to realize is that there is no magic formula for NFL success. Inexperienced, experienced, college, whatever... all can succeed if you get the RIGHT people.
This is where I'm confused. In the first sentence you state that Lerner doesn't know how to build a franchise... then later in the paragraph you say there is no "right" way to build a franchise and that any of a number of options can work if it's the right people... Then you almost treat it as a negative that Randy is learning from previous mistakes and trying something different... So, I don't get it.
I mean, look at Robert Kraft. By pretty much any standard, he's been a very successful owner since 1994... but in 1993, the previous owner hired Bill Parcells as the coach who had 2 playoff seasons in 3 years, then when he left, Kraft hired Carrol who was taking the team downhill... then he found Belichick..... So is Kraft that great or did Parcells really set the foundation for that franchise? And then to pick Belichick with his resume being as a great coordinator, a mediocre HC, and having the personality of a tree stump.... He was really not that hot of a commodity when Kraft made him the HC if you remember..... What if Belichick retires tomorrow, does Robert Kraft KNOW how to find his replacement? My guess is that in years past, his replacement would have been Weiss.. or RAC... or Mangini... if that had happened, what would have happened to the Patriots?
My point being, Randy needs to find that one guy that takes this team to the next level and there is no formula for finding them because there aren't many out there who can say they've done it who are willing to do it again... you just have to keep trying and that's what he's doing.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
I'm just not seeing the utter confidence so many have in Pioli. I think Belichick is the mastermind of the NE success, not some wizard in the FO. Belichick did it in two years I think, way too fast for a FO type to be all that instrumental.
Why do people tap the "Belichick tree" at all? Because they hope that that mastermind's success will rub off. Why is it that Mangini is guaranteed for success (even though Belichick can't stand the guy) but yet Pioli, who has worked intimately with him for years in actually building the dynasty on the field, doesn't deserve any confidence?
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Quote:
This is where I'm confused. In the first sentence you state that Lerner doesn't know how to build a franchise... then later in the paragraph you say there is no "right" way to build a franchise and that any of a number of options can work if it's the right people... Then you almost treat it as a negative that Randy is learning from previous mistakes and trying something different... So, I don't get it.
Let me clarify. There is no "right" way to build an NFL franchise, but there are several ways to do so. The point is that in order to do so, you need to know the game and know exactly what you're doing. Randy failed miserably in his first attempt. Instead of realizing that maybe it's best if he gets someone in the picture who knows football better than him at GM to run the show, he thinks he's just fine giving it another try because he won't repeat the mistakes of last time.
The problem is what went wrong last time wasn't the organizational structure, it was the people within the organization. All different kinds of structures work. Rumor has it that part of the reason that Randy is going coach first is because he asked around and many people said that having a good head coach is more important than having a good GM. The problem is, if you have to ask about something basic like philosophy, it means you don't have a clue how to actually put one together.
What makes Randy more qualified than you to build an organization? His wallet, his experience in failure, business experience and the people he has surrounding him telling him what to do. So essentially, nothing rooted in football knowledge. To me, that thought is a very scary thing. It would be a huge comfort knowing that a guy like Pioli, who has been surrounded in football knowledge over the years is leading the charge instead of a guy like Randy who has only experienced dismal failure since he's been here.
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Spectre
I understand what you're saying and it does make sense,...but didn't Lerner offer Pioli the job already?
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Square one : The NFL . screwed Cleveland from the start by awarding the Browns to the Lerners' instead of the Shula Group .. #2 The Lerner's bring in ... Carmen & Clark ... The second coming " Butch " ... RAC/Savage So if if one is just a little negative , I would ask your forgivness
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I say we forget Pioli.
The national radio media is reporting he had a "good" interview yesterday in KC. This would not be too hard of a geographical move for Ferentz,.....
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Why do people tap the "Belichick tree" at all?
Good question,but an easy answer.That tree has bourne some great fruit.
List the people he brought into the NFL with thw old Browns.Many of them have gone on to do great things in thier own right.
Belecheck has an eye for talent,not only on the field,but it appears in the FO as well.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Quote:
Why is it that Mangini is guaranteed for success (even though Belichick can't stand the guy) but yet Pioli, who has worked intimately with him for years in actually building the dynasty on the field, doesn't deserve any confidence
Personally, I don't know if Mangini is going to be successful.. But I think he's got as good a shot at it as anyone that's being bantered around.
What I don't get is all the love for Pioli... I'm rather confused by it to be honest. I still haven't gotten one person to answer this simple question, what has he done that makes him so special?
I also don't understand using the hatred between Belichick and Mangini as a reason to discount Mangini.. For cryin out loud,, Mangini blew the whistle on Belichick and cost him money, cost the team money and a draft pick. I'd be ticked off at Mangini if I were Belichick.. Who wouldn't.
The thing is, Belichick broke NFL Rules and got caught.. He doesn't have the right to be angry at Mangini.. No right whatsoever..
Neither does Pioli.. They got caught with thier hands in the cookie jar and instead of looking at the man in the mirror, they are angry with the man that caught them with thier hand in the cookie jar..
This is like high stakes poker and in this game, you take whatever advantage you can get.. But if you break the rules of the game, you have to be prepared to take your punishment..
If Belichick and Pioli are angry at anyone, they might want to look in the mirror first.
That to me is a bad reason for some fans on here to discount Mangini..
But that's JMO!
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Pioli has never been a GM..he's been comfortable working under Bellyache for a long time..it seems to me he's got a tude for what he wants..it's been in print his demands are too high for any team ..is his ego so large that he can't see what it takes to build a winning team?
Or is he just messing with people because he really knows he wants to stay in NE?
If he truely wanted out I think this discussion would be over..
If he's insisting on Ferentz/Daniels as coach and the owner wants a experienced coach , can he not look around to see a pro coach he likes?
Pioli might make a good GM..but he's never pick'd a HC before and if he brings in a guy who can't crack the whip when needed and do the things our previous coaches have been unable to do..then it's still flawed..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/06/09 12:29 PM.
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Quote:
Spectre
I understand what you're saying and it does make sense,...but didn't Lerner offer Pioli the job already?
Just answering with what I'm aware of... to my knowledge it's been reported that Pioli was offered the job... That's what was out there in the news last week.. This week, that talk has all but disappeared. Got me as to why. But now it's being reported that Pioli is heading to KC for an interview.
Stay tuned.,, this is gonna get interesting.
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It was reported that Pioli was interviewed by KC yesterday.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Quote:
And yes, I suspect Mangini was open to the same defensive scheme and the same offense.
You think we are keeping the same O and D?? To me that would mean keeping the same coordinators.
Is there something that makes you think that??
I know Mangini runs a 3-4...so I can see that staying pretty much the same, but I would think the O is in for changes.
I don't worry about Quinn learning the O...Matt Ryan came in and did a good job with Atlanta.
Quinn should be able to do the same.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
Quote:
Spectre
I understand what you're saying and it does make sense,...but didn't Lerner offer Pioli the job already?
Just answering with what I'm aware of... to my knowledge it's been reported that Pioli was offered the job... That's what was out there in the news last week.. This week, that talk has all but disappeared. Got me as to why. But now it's being reported that Pioli is heading to KC for an interview.
Stay tuned.,, this is gonna get interesting.
I definatetly don't want Lerner sitting on his hands waiting to hear from Pioli, that would just be wrong on more than one level. He knows we need 2 major pieces right now and IMO the coach is ultimately the most important, so I can understand why he likes Mangini and doesn't want him to slip away just to be sitting there completely empty handed.
The only thing I'm having trouble understanding is why hasn't he contacted Marty and is showing any interest in Shanahan. I understand the concerns that Lerner has become a little too enamored with Mangini, even though I've warmed to him a bit more.
Maybe Marty's track record with ownership is something Lerner wants to avoid.
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Quote:
Spectre
I understand what you're saying and it does make sense,...but didn't Lerner offer Pioli the job already?
From my knowledge of the situation based on what I've read, it seems like Lerner offered Pioli something less than what Pioli was looking for. Apparently Pioli had some pretty big demands and Lerner wasn't willing to give into them. Now, the thing is, when you're negotiating, this is exactly how it goes. A guy states some big demands and you work him down until you get him into a range that you're comfortable with. Supposedly Lerner also turned Pioli off by continuing to interview head coach candidates as though he was GM himself (if I'm Pioli, I'd have been asking what he wanted me for in the first place if he was going to do it all).
Lerner, at least it seems to me, balked at those demands and abandoned Pioli as his top option altogether because of how much he loved Mangini and Pioli abandoned Lerner as well because Lerner made the opportunity less attractive than it was before he even did anything. I think part of the problem is that Pioli wanted to start a search with Ferentz at the top of the list (not that I really want Ferentz but at least he wouldn't demand him) and Lerner had a mancrush on Mangini already since he interviewed him.
What should've happened was that Lerner should've negotiated with Pioli, reached an acceptable agreement for both sides and then sat in on interviews run by Pioli and anyone else Pioli hired underneath him. What happened instead is that Lerner fell in love with Mangini right away, abandoned the entire (and well thought out process) it looked like he was going to do, and offered Mangini the keys to the team.
To me, this entire, logical, lengthy, intelligent process we had was derailed the second Mangini was fired and Lerner found out. That is a BIG problem in my book.
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I can understand the Marty part....and Shanahan told people he was on vacation for 2 weeks.
That may have been his way of saying he wasn't interested in talking to people here.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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He did contact Shanahan, but he wouldn't take an interview for at least 2 weeks because he was vacationing with his family.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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You think we are keeping the same O and D?? To me that would mean keeping the same coordinators.
No..it doesn't mean that..Mangini as I read is assembling his own group of coaches..
"Mike Lombardi of the National Football Post hears that Eric Mangini has already begun assembling a coaching staff in Cleveland.
That staff might include Romeo Crennel as defensive coordinator. Another candidate to run the Browns' defense if Mangini gets the job is current Raiders DC Rob Ryan. Mangini nearly got Ryan on his Jets staff last year."
Now that doesn't mean he wants Chud or Tucker..so I won't go there..I actually am not feeling Chud/Tucker..and he probably isn't either..but he may run the same schemes which he is familar with..
U can run the same scheme with better coordinators..
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No matter the state of the relationship, I betcha Belichick, if asked by Randy whether Mangini was a good coach would not degrade the guy but give his best assesment which would most likely be good. And I wouldn't be shocked if Lerner did just that and would give him huge credit if he did! As irreverent as Billy can be I still think there is a somewhat of a code of honor in the NFL that is adhered to among coaches/owners. (Except Al Davis maybe! )
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Quote:
The only thing I'm having trouble understanding is why hasn't he contacted Marty and is showing any interest in Shanahan.
Cal, from what I can gather from various reports,, Shanahan was contacted twice by the browns but didn't want to talk until he came back from Vacation. The article went on to say that Shanahan was in to much of an emotional state to really think about another job.. besides, he's got 20 million coming from the Broncos contract.. he doesn't need to move fast.
That same article said that Marty wasn't even in the plans..
That kinda made me wonder as well.. I don't know if there is some unpublished or unreported history there or not. Remember, Al Lerner was a part owner of the club when Marty was here before... I guess there could be something there.. don't know.
THere was a rather harsh sounding split between Marty and Modell at that time.. maybe some of it stuck in Randys mind.. again, don't know.
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Maybe Marty's track record with ownership is something Lerner wants to avoid.
Lerner is wise to consider this an issue, but Marty--as far as I'm concerned with ownership trouble--was only in trouble with Modell because he refused to bring on an OC, IIRC. I felt as though this was a mistake by Modell, because we had a "defacto OC" at the time, and his name was Kosar. Letting Schottenheimer go at all was a huge mistake, in my opinion.
I wouldn't mind seeing him back here as the GM at all. There you would have a GM who had actually been a coach, whereas at this point, we are talking about hiring a GM and a coach, neither of whom has sat in the other's seat, and all of whom do nothing but grumble about not having enough "power." It makes it look like they (these candidates) are more concerned with their egos than they are turning MY franchise around.
Shanahan is on vacation ?? Sorry about that Mike--do you want to turn the Cleveland Browns around or NOT ?? His real issue is, he wants the same GM power he had in Denver, and he ain't gonna get it here,....
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Like I said...I can see the D staying pretty much the same.....i just have a feeling the O is changing.
Maybe not, but it seems like a stretch Mangini is going to keep the same O, and hire someone to run someone else's offense...unless we hire someone already in the O.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I betcha Belichick, if asked by Randy whether Mangini was a good coach would not degrade the guy but give his best assesment which would most likely be good
Yeah.....rrright... I can see mumbles really being enthusiastic about that conversation...
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Quote:
As irreverent as Billy can be I still think there is a somewhat of a code of honor in the NFL that is adhered to among coaches/owners. (
I hope there is,,, but then you have a guy taping signals.. that kinda goes against the whole Code of Honor thing... Who knows
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It's more than likely that Lerner looked at the drafts that Coach had a huge impact in selecting players and decided he wanted someone that was better at evaluating talent. Coach is a GREAT coach and was a major influence in me getting into coaching....but he is not a GM.
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Somewhat random thought....
Could we take a run at Ozzie? Is this even possible under contractual obligations and existing rules around interviews?
Newsome was a definitive Brown and it makes me ILL that he works for the Rats.
If a good deal could be offered in addition to appealing to his history in Cleveland, would that be possible?
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Quote:
Quote:
Spectre
I understand what you're saying and it does make sense,...but didn't Lerner offer Pioli the job already?
From my knowledge of the situation based on what I've read, it seems like Lerner offered Pioli something less than what Pioli was looking for. Apparently Pioli had some pretty big demands and Lerner wasn't willing to give into them. Now, the thing is, when you're negotiating, this is exactly how it goes. A guy states some big demands and you work him down until you get him into a range that you're comfortable with. Supposedly Lerner also turned Pioli off by continuing to interview head coach candidates as though he was GM himself (if I'm Pioli, I'd have been asking what he wanted me for in the first place if he was going to do it all).
Lerner, at least it seems to me, balked at those demands and abandoned Pioli as his top option altogether because of how much he loved Mangini and Pioli abandoned Lerner as well because Lerner made the opportunity less attractive than it was before he even did anything. I think part of the problem is that Pioli wanted to start a search with Ferentz at the top of the list (not that I really want Ferentz but at least he wouldn't demand him) and Lerner had a mancrush on Mangini already since he interviewed him.
What should've happened was that Lerner should've negotiated with Pioli, reached an acceptable agreement for both sides and then sat in on interviews run by Pioli and anyone else Pioli hired underneath him. What happened instead is that Lerner fell in love with Mangini right away, abandoned the entire (and well thought out process) it looked like he was going to do, and offered Mangini the keys to the team.
To me, this entire, logical, lengthy, intelligent process we had was derailed the second Mangini was fired and Lerner found out. That is a BIG problem in my book.
It seems to me that you expected Lerner to sit back and do nothing while waiting on an answer from Pioli, when it appears that he didn't even agree on the job in principle. I think it was pretty evident even after the interview that Lerner was VERY interested and it was Pioli that dragged his feet showing no sense of urgency to work with Lerner. If I'm getting ready to pay a guy millions(maybe even more than he's actually worth) to do a job and he dissess me the way Pioli has, I'd be a little turned off as well.
I also don't see how you think Lerner lost interest in Pioli as soon as Mangini came along,....as far as I know, the two haven't even communicated since the interview(Pioli/Lerner interview),.....who's fault is that? Should Lerner be acting desperate for Pioli when his original demands were something that Lerner was not even close to?
I don't know, but everybody talks how important it is that the HC and GM have a good working relationship, well, the owner needs to be included in that group as well, and with Pioli, I have my doubts about that.
I also like what I'm hearing about Mangini already trying to get a coaching staff in place before he's even been formerly offered the job.I'm already sensing a more pro-active approach than I ever did with RAC.
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Not sure if this was in the other thread or not . . . http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2009/01/fireworks_may_appease_fans_but.htmlFireworks may appease fans, but they don't promise NFL success for Browns by Terry Pluto/Plain Dealer Columnist Monday January 05, 2009, 6:07 PM Ten things about the Browns' search... 1. Unless something shocking happens, Eric Mangini will become the next coach of the Browns. They are convinced he is the best coach available, given that Bill Cowher, Mike Holmgren and some other big names are taking a year off. There is no guarantee Mike Shanahan will even want to coach when he returns from his vacation. He is tired and has about $20 million coming in from his contract over the next few years. 2. Losing the press conference when new coaches and general managers are announced doesn't always mean the team loses on the field. A year ago, Atlanta named former Browns and New England scout Thomas Dimitroff as general manager. The new coach was career assistant Mike Smith. Talk about a yawner. Then they drafted Matt Ryan and put together a team that went from 4-12 to the playoffs. 3. Dimitroff is the son of former Browns scout Tom Dimitroff. He also is a branch from the Bill Belichick tree, as he was the No. 2 personnel man behind Scott Pioli with the Patriots before Atlanta. He used some of the New England way to revamp the Falcons' front office, where team president Rich McKay was moved from football operations to handling more of the business side. 4. Suppose the Browns hire George Kokinis as general manager as he has a good working relationship with Mangini. Tampa did something like that when Jon Gruden was hired away from Oakland, and Gruden brought along Bruce Allen as GM. Yes, Allen had the title of GM in Oakland, but owner Al Davis has a major say over everything. Kokinis is Baltimore's pro player personnel director, meaning he primarily scouts the pros for free agents. Before taking that job, he did some college scouting. 5. If the Browns hire Kokinis, they will need a director of college scouting. No one had that title, as former GM Phil Savage did most of it. His assistant, T.J. McCreight, worked with Kokinis in Baltimore and he could move up to that spot. But the Browns must resolve who will run the college draft, because that was Savage's domain. 6. It's easy to say Savage came from Baltimore, and that didn't work out. So Kokinis won't, either. Or to say that no one from Belichick is doing well, forgetting Dimitroff, who works quietly and out of the public eye in Atlanta. Or to say that if Mangini were any good, why did New York fire him? Tony Dungy was fired in Tampa because they wanted a bigger name in Gruden. The Jets thought they could dump Mangini and get Cowher. 7. Who picks the players for the Steelers? Kevin Colbert, hardly a widely known name. In Pittsburgh, fans know the head coach and coordinators. In Philadelphia, Tom Heckert is the GM, but coach Andy Reid has a strong say about the roster. The key is the front office leadership meshing with the coaching staff to put a roster together. Maybe Mangini/Kokinis can do that, as Smith/Dimitroff did in Atlanta. It's not a return to Romeo Crennel/Savage, who were rookies in their new jobs. 8. Mangini has three years of experience, two winning seasons. Who was the last Browns coach to have two winning seasons in three years? How about Marty Schottenheimer (winning seasons from 1986-88). Yes, it has been more than 20 years. 9. The Browns do have something to offer a new coach. They are about $9 million under the salary cap and it will be about $15 million when "year end adjustments" are made next month. That puts them in the middle of the pack. They have picks in the first, second, fourth and sixth rounds. They had only one Pro Bowl player before Savage arrived in 2005, and have had eight in the last two years. Some guys have underachieved. But players such as Joshua Cribbs, Kellen Winslow, Joe Thomas and even Braylon Edwards do have talent. 10. The Browns also have two quarterbacks in Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn, both of whom could start for some teams. Quarterbacks are the key to turning teams around. Assuming he's the coach, Mangini will need to commit to one soon and build an offense around him. The other could be used for a trade or depth. But they need clarity with the QBs.
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Hey Coach, IF you're talking about Marty, those were good points,....however, maybe Schott has learned from those mistakes and could become a good GM ??
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I'm going to put something out here that is weighing on me..curious how you think about it..
Word came out from the Cowher camp that he didn't like the structure of this organization. An anonymous quote of course, but still there, and it coulda been ignored if we hadn't come to find out that Pioli's first issue in negotiations was the "unpaid advisers" that he'd have to answer to.
Both men made these comments after Phil was fired obviously, so the structure Phil represented was gone.
Just as obvious is what structure is left behind and what's left unsaid.
Kosar and Brown have too much input, maybe others as well.
Randy isn't running a taut ship here and apparently both men were put off enough by the unpaid advisors to make them believe they wouldn't be allowed to run their own taut ship.
if they are the ones who are behind all this stuff, then Lerner is alienating prospective people by these guys..
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Quote:
Lerner, at least it seems to me, balked at those demands and abandoned Pioli as his top option altogether because of how much he loved Mangini and Pioli abandoned Lerner as well because Lerner made the opportunity less attractive than it was before he even did anything. I think part of the problem is that Pioli wanted to start a search with Ferentz at the top of the list (not that I really want Ferentz but at least he wouldn't demand him) and Lerner had a mancrush on Mangini already since he interviewed him.
What should've happened was that Lerner should've negotiated with Pioli, reached an acceptable agreement for both sides and then sat in on interviews run by Pioli and anyone else Pioli hired underneath him. What happened instead is that Lerner fell in love with Mangini right away, abandoned the entire (and well thought out process) it looked like he was going to do, and offered Mangini the keys to the team.
I just don't get it Spectre, you start out with....."it seems to me", and then state in the next paragraph......"what happened instead was....". How do you know what happened? How do you know that Pioli didn't refuse to budge from what demands he had made? It seems to me that that could be a VERY real possibility. Pioli has it made in NE and maybe he's not sure he wants to leave. Soooo.....what he does is say OK, I'll leave NE but ONLY FOR THIS, THIS, and THIS, and he actually means it?
Look Spectre, I don't know if Mangini is the right guy or not, but it just seems to me that people are critiquing him just because he is from the Belicheck tree and it seems that Kok is in the running with him.
People complained that Crennel was to easy on his players, Mangini seems to be the exact opposite from what I have read. In fact, he may need to actually tone down his discipline?
People want someone with experience. Well, Mangini has 3 yrs HC experience and he has a winning record in two of those three yrs.
People want someone who won't overhaul the whole gameplan so we don't have to start back-over at square one. Well, Mangini runs the 3-4 and is familiar with the AFC.
People want someone with Cleveland roots. Well, Mangini has those and thus should know a little about the AFC North.
I am sure there is more that I am missing but the one other thing I would like to piont out is that Mangini is still young. That means IF he is succussfull here that he will be able to stick around for a LONG TIME. Unlike Shottenhiemer, unlike Shannahan, unlike Cowher. Look, I know Shananhan and Cowher are not that old, and 5 or 6 yrs, maybe even longer are possiblities, but again IF Mangini turns out to be the man, we could be looking at a run like Cowher had in Pittsburg or that Belicheck has in NE. That to me is worth a shot with him.
Just my humble $.02
Born and breed with OSU, App. State alumni, but bleed orange and brown.
Go ARMY......Beat Navy!!!!!!
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I kind of like the idea that Lerner isn't necessarily going with the most popular choice. Take the time out to make the best decision not the most popular.
I don't really care who the coach or GM is as long as they give us a winner.
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j/c
Let's try to sell ourselves on Mangini. I don't know why I'm so enamored with McDaniels when it seems like Mangini's already been down the path McDaniels has been down, except on the defensive side of the ball instead of the offensive side.
Maybe I want an offensive mind for a head coach cuz I'm sick of watching inept offense? I don't know.
(I know defense wins championships, bear with me)
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That may be the most interesting Pluto blog I've ever read. Thanks for sharing, as I really believe in most of what it says. I especially liked the part about how much cap space we have. Wonder what that looks like 2-3 years from now with our FA signings from last year - of course, don't know how much the cap will continue to go up, but sure seems like we've seen big increases in the past couple of year.
From Cleveland to KC to south central Florida, this dawg has made his travels - and changed his display name for each move.
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If Lerner likes Mangini then I think he should hire him now, before he finishes his interviews with GMs. I think GMs are overrated. Savage was a good talent evaluator but his drafts were no better than what he could have done with mock drafts or consulting with the people on this board. To me, a good GM would have experience with negotiating contracts and dealing with cap issues and I believe Kokinis has that.
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I agree. Like I've said before, it really doesn't seem that difficult to figure out which college players are good and fit into your scheme. A GM really raises his stock, though, if he can hit on those "reaches" in the late rounds. But, in all reality, that's pretty tough to do.
What's more important is structuring contracts to fit into the cap and leaving enough room to bring in other help. I think a GM can make or break a team in that regard alone.
The Browns have an extensive scouting unit, just like all the other teams. We should be able to find guys we want or need. Just because Savage would go to 90 college games a day doesn't mean that he was able to pick out all these diamonds in the rough. His first and second round picks were guys who would be pretty darn easy to find.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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