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I actually think it's better this way. The GM isn't on the field with the guys everyday. He's not doing any coaching, game planning etc,etc. I'd rather much rather have the most experienced guy with most of the say, on the sidelines, NOT upstairs. Heck..it would be easier for most of us to walk into a GM role than a being a good head coach. If you trust a guy enough to be a head coach he should be given most of the power to pick his players and not be forced to play what some GM thinks is best for the team. Yes.. there need to be some give and take to consider the business side of it, but the coach should be able to say I want THIS GUY instead.
Bill Parcells once said " If I'm expected to make the dinner, I should be able to pick the ingredients"
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So, if you fire your GM or he resigns, then you have to get rid of the HC before you can get any good GM candidates to come in? After all, you are stating that you can't have a coach in place and get a good GM.
Not at all, I said you can't "put" the coach in place before the GM because all that says to him is "we value you enough to run our organization, but not enough to let you in on a coaching hire". If you have a system in place already, it's much easier to present that to a GM and see if that's something he's willing to work within.
When keeping the coach after letting the GM go makes sense to me when the coach is bonafide, for example, like when Sundquist got fired and Shanahan kept his job, Reese lost his job and Fisher stayed on, etc. What doesn't make sense to me, is firing both your GM and head coach, then bringing on a head coach with 3 years of experience and letting him choose how to build your entire organization. Again... what has Mangini done to justify that much power other than interview really well?
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Holy Schnikes Spec,, we finally agree on something 
 
I know this day would come, but I was expecting it around 2012 or so. 
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I know this day would come, but I was expecting it around 2012 or so.
I warn you,, don't get used to it
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LOL, Manigni is building this organization? Funny, I thought Lerner was with the aid of Accorsi.
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I actually think it's better this way. The GM isn't on the field with the guys everyday. He's not doing any coaching, game planning etc,etc. I'd rather much rather have the most experienced guy with most of the say, on the sidelines, NOT upstairs. Heck..it would be easier for most of us to walk into a GM role than a being a good head coach. If you trust a guy enough to be a head coach he should be given most of the power to pick his players and not be forced to play what some GM thinks is best for the team. Yes.. there need to be some give and take to consider the business side of it, but the coach should be able to say I want THIS GUY instead.
Bill Parcells once said " If I'm expected to make the dinner, I should be able to pick the ingredients"
Another point...
Butch Davis brought in Pete Garcia who was clearly over his head.
Why? Garcia had ZERO NFL experience doing any NFL scouting. His background wasn't "watching pro tape" as Accorsi put it about Kokinis.
Butch would consistently overrule his scouts and listen to Garcia...I'm assuming Mangini and Kokinis would have a similar relationship to Botch and Garcia, with one HUGE difference...
BOTH HAVE EXPERIENCE EITHER COACHING THE PRO GAME OR "WATCHING PRO TAPE" FOR PRO PLAYERS! And Mangini is willing to listen to a football mind he respects.
Plus, I believe Mangini is less of a tyrant than Botch. I think he knew more about how to win in the National Football League in his rookie year than Botch ever will. That's why I have hope that this relationship won't be "Butch Davis the Sequel"
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Heckert postpones Browns interview Crennel may have role as adviser to Mangini By Marla Ridenour Beacon Journal sports writer Published on Friday, Jan 09, 2009 BEREA: Browns general manager candidate Tom Heckert has not officially pulled his name out of consideration but has postponed a scheduled interview with owner Randy Lerner to weigh his options, a league source said Thursday. Heckert, the Philadelphia Eagles' general manager and the son of a former Browns scout, was reportedly set to talk to Lerner this weekend. Another source and Jay Glazer of Fox Sports reported that Heckert had withdrawn. Lerner is expected to rubber-stamp new coach Eric Mangini's suggestion of his close friend, Baltimore Ravens Director of Pro Personnel George Kokinis. But the Ravens won't allow Kokinis to be interviewed until Sunday. The only others interviewed for the top football job were New England Patriots Vice President of Player Personnel Scott Pioli, now out of the running because of Mangini's hiring and still a candidate with Kansas City, and Browns Director of Player Personnel T.J. McCreight. A source said former Denver Broncos General Manager Ted Sundquist has expressed interest in the Browns position, but an interview has not been scheduled. When differences with coach Mike Shanahan could not be reconciled, Sundquist was let go by the Broncos last March after spending 16 years with the team, six as GM. Shanahan was fired last week. ''I have tremendous respect for George and I've known him for a long time,'' Mangini said of Kokinis, whom he met when they worked for the Browns in 1994. ''As a person, he's outstanding; as a professional, he's impressive. He's got tremendous substance. What ultimately is important is to get the very best people we can.'' As to who will have the power, presuming Kokinis is the choice, Mangini said: ''It's not going to be a function of what's defined on the contract. It's not going to be a function of individual fiefdoms or any of that. What matters is the GM and I work together every day and create decisions based on consensus.'' Coordinators picked? Mangini said he hopes to hire New York Jets quarterbacks coach Brian Daboll as his offensive coordinator and Oakland Raiders defensive coordinator Rob Ryan to that same post. Adam Schefter of NFL.com reported the deal with Ryan was done. Mangini said he will run the 3-4 defense like his predecessor, Romeo Crennel, but not if he doesn't find the Browns' personnel adequate for that scheme. Spot for Crennel? Mangini didn't rule out trying to find a role for Crennel, perhaps as an adviser. They worked together for seven years with the Jets and Patriots, and Crennel and his wife, Rosemary, lived with the Manginis while their house was being built in New England. ''He's an amazing guy,'' Mangini said. ''I have nothing but absolute respect and love for him. I called him when I got the news and his response, how happy he was, how he'd love to help any way possible, that's who he is. I learned a ton of football from him and I'd love to have him here.'' About those QBs One of Mangini's biggest decisions will be what to do with quarterbacks Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson, especially since Anderson is due a $5 million roster bonus in March. Mangini didn't say if he wanted to name his starter by training camp. ''You have to assess what they can do physically, you have to get to know what their huddle presence is like, how they are mentally, their decision-making process,'' he said. ''That's not something you just see right away. It's not something that necessarily happens quickly. You go through a process and make a decision when you feel the decision is right.'' Asked if he could see going to camp with both, Mangini said, ''Gosh, that seems far away.'' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marla Ridenour can be reached at mridenour@thebeaconjournal.com. Read her Browns blog at http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/browns/. Heckert has not officailly withdrawn his name as so many people thought it seems.
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LOL, Manigni is building this organization? Funny, I thought Lerner was with the aid of Accorsi.
You don't think Mangini is? Who is dictating his GM of choice? Who is deciding the system we play? Why is putting his coaching staff together to fit that system? Lerner may be the guy to push the OK button, but the direction of it all is absolutely coming from Mangini. What aspect of this do you think Mangini doesn't have the most important opinion in the room on?
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Already posted a PD article referring to the same day that completely shoots that notion down. Randy is optimistic he'll stay in the process but sources close to him say that he's out.
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Can you provide a link to show a quote where anyone said Mangini was "dictating" who the GM is? If not, stop with the groundless accusations. They make you look like Menza. Gasp! A head coach is picking what system to run and what coaches wil be hired. OMG, STOP THE PRESSES!!!!!! Mangini is power hungry and doing something EVERY COACH IN THE NFL DOES!!!!!!!
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Where? I browsed around but didn't see anything on it on here.
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Can you provide a link to show a quote where anyone said Mangini was "dictating" who the GM is? If not, stop with the groundless accusations. They make you look like Menza.
Gasp! A head coach is picking what system to run and what coaches wil be hired. OMG, STOP THE PRESSES!!!!!! Mangini is power hungry and doing something EVERY COACH IN THE NFL DOES!!!!!!!
You really mean to tell me that the reason an underqualified guy who has only been seriously on the radar for one other job that I've heard (the Jets job with Mangini in 2006), who Mangini gushed over in his press conference, in a hiring process where the owner said we're getting a GM that can work with Mangini... you think the reason he's on the top of the list is something OTHER than Mangini telling Lerner that Kokinis is his man? Oooook.
Also, I'm not stupid. I'm well aware that other coaching hires do the other things on the list every single time. The point I was trying to make by listing them is that everything that is being put in place right now is Mangini-centric. I'm not sure why that's so hard to see...
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Where? I browsed around but didn't see anything on it on here.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/01/heckert_ends_gm_candidacy_brow.html
"Heckert, who was scheduled to interview on Friday, pulled his name because he wanted to have a say in hiring the head coach. The Browns are planning to touch bases with Heckert again on Friday, but he won't change his mind, the source said."
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Suggesting is not dictating now, is it? Also, are you saying that Mangini demanded Coke be hired or he wouldn't take the job? THAT'S dictating and I was wanting to know where you go that information. You replied and it's clear by your reply that you have based that OPINION on very little more than Mangini and Coke are friends.
The situation is simple. Coke was mentioned by Mangini as someone he thought would do a good job Lerner checked him out, asked Accorsi what his feeling were on Coke, and then set up an interview. That is FAR from "dictating" anything.
Everything is being put in place with Mangini's success in mind? Again, WOW! BIG NEWS. Guess what, Spectre, EVERY FRANCHISE IN THE NFL IS SET UP THAT WAY. The reason is simple. If you believe that a coach's system and philosophies are the way to run your franchise, you do everything in your power to folow those systems and philosophies. You are reading WAY too much into a recommendation on a GM and the normal things that happen within a franchise. It's getting to the point of being almost sad.
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When keeping the coach after letting the GM go makes sense to me when the coach is bonafide, for example, like when Sundquist got fired and Shanahan kept his job, Reese lost his job and Fisher stayed on, etc. What doesn't make sense to me, is firing both your GM and head coach, then bringing on a head coach with 3 years of experience and letting him choose how to build your entire organization. Again... what has Mangini done to justify that much power other than interview really well?
...and that´s it Spectre...why do we give so much power to such a guy, who brings in even less experienced guys to the org...and it makes sense: he can act and looks like the boss...good for him and his Ego...odds are it´s not gonna be so good for the Browns and ultimately not so good for us, the fans
This is NFL training school part 3...and wtf happened to all the guys on here that wanted an established leadership in Berea once RAC and Savage got fired? Where is all the experience talk on here gone all of a sudden? As soon as Mangini and his buddies were announced it was gone and all I see is Pom-Pom swinging fans? Hilarious....am I on the "other board" all of a sudden?
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I think it's time for the whiners to chill..take a IBprofin..
The facts are Lerner wanted a HC with NFL experience and when EM became available it was a opportunity to get what he wanted..
This organization has tried with the GM being the face..and it hasn't worked..
Now we get a guy who can coach..and then we'll get a GM who can work with him to get what he needs.
Really even EM has other GM's that he would like to work with also..and we've seen the new names....right now I don't have too much issue with this..
There's a lot of risk with rookie HC's/college HC's...
In this instance , no matter who becomes the GM...Eric will be giving him his grocery list.
Dejango ..apparantly your eyes have some sort of shield on them..because if you just look at the names of the coordinators EM is bringing in , they have NEL experience...unlike ours had..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/09/09 04:09 PM.
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Dejango ..apparantly your eyes have some sort of shield on them..because if you just look at the names of the coordinators EM is bringing in , they have NEL experience...unlike ours had..
I suggest you read the other coordinators thread.
He thinks Ryan is garbage.
you had a good run Hank.
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You post like you are on the other board, that's for sure. Guess what, MANGINI IS AN EXPERIENCED COACH. As for all this fabled power being given to Mangini, please show what power he's been given? He made a SUGGESTION for the GM. Other than that, he's making all the hires EVERY COACH EVER HIRED IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL HAS. Man, some people have no clue but pretend they have all the answers. 
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No one gets that high on list, so high that at the moment he's by himself without even so much as an interview, without Mangini saying "I want this guy, go get him." The only reason it wouldn't be "dictating" in this process is because that's exactly what Lerner wants to happen and you don't have to "dictate" anything to a willing party.
I completely understand building around a guy who deserves to be built around, but why on earth is Eric Mangini (3 years of experience, 23-25, 0 playoff wins) a guy that goes from being canned by New York to having everything in Cleveland built around him in 9 days? Bill Cowher yes. Scott Pioli yes. Eric Mangini? He's a solid coach that was given a raw deal but giving a guy like that run of the place?
Actually, I have an idea. Replace every instance of Eric Mangini in every article concerning the Browns with "Bill Belichick". Suddenly, people go from having issues with everything that's happened in this process to being comfortable in and actually happy in it all like Randy is. That's who Lerner thinks he's hired here. Only a guy like that could you easily justify handing the keys to the kingdom without a front office even in place. The only problem is that Mangini isn't even close to there yet.
If he's gets there, there will be no issues. If Lerner's wrong... hoooo boy.
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They are two different articles.
One was made on Thursday (the one you posted) saying he completely pulled his name from consideration.
The one I posted is from today sayng Heckert didn't pull his name he just postponed the interview.
The article you posted is just some more 'assumptions" from Marry K saying because he doesn't want to work with Mangini.
I believe nothing Mary K posts. Don't know why you are feeding into it.
The way I see it is that the door is still open.
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As for all this fabled power being given to Mangini, please show what power he's been given?
We know he's the center of every single change that's being made right now. The burden of proof is on you... what is something involving the build of this team that ISN'T being centered around Mangini right now?
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I've also read on other insider sites that Heckert is absolutely out, but I'm not going to be posting links from there. Mary Kay was the easiest link I could find that I'm willing to link. IF he re-enters the process, and that is a colossal IF, Randy will have to be ridiculously convincing because right now, he's done with us.
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I'll look around. The way I see it is until a guy is hired the door is still open to anyone.
I really don't want Kokinis.
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j/c
What if we can't get Kokinis??  Cleveland Browns GM search loses another candidate by Tony Grossi Friday January 09, 2009, 2:37 PM Rich McKayCLEVELAND -- Scratch Rich McKay from the list of Browns general manager candidates. The Browns had permission to interview the Atlanta Falcons president, but the interview won't take place, at McKay's choosing. Early on in the Browns' search process, McKay was considered a "brand name" candidate to head a reorganization of the team's football operations. Scott Pioli, New England vice president of personnel, also was in that class. But the big names fell by the wayside upon the naming of Eric Mangini as head coach by Browns owner Randy Lerner. Another potential candidate, Philadelphia General Manager Tom Heckert, backed out on Thursday. The GM job appeared to be framed for Baltimore pro personnel director George Kokinis, a friend of Mangini's, who is scheduled to be interviewed on Sunday. But sources say that Kokinis may be leaning toward staying in Baltimore, and that is why the Browns' GM search has been widened. Former Denver GM Ted Sundquist and Chris Polian, Colts vice president of football operations, may be potential candidates. web page
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No, the burden of proof is on you. Please cite ONE TIME where a HC was not put in a position where the organization was built around giving him the best chance to suceed.
Pioli has the experience to have a franchise built around him? HE'S NEVER BEEN A GM BEFORE IN HIS CAREER. Mangini has three years' experience in his job and was successful two out of those three years in bringing a winning record back in. Now, please cite what Pioli has done that has warraned a franchise to be built around him.
How does he go from being fired from the Jets to being a HC that a franchise is built to succeed? It's rather simple. He was hired a a HC. He is getting the same type of support that any other ne HC would have.
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Quote:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/01/heckert_ends_gm_candidacy_brow.html
"Heckert, who was scheduled to interview on Friday, pulled his name because he wanted to have a say in hiring the head coach. The Browns are planning to touch bases with Heckert again on Friday, but he won't change his mind, the source said."
Several posts above this one is an article posted by Clutch I think that says something pretty different.
So I guess the new news is that we only believe what we want to belive and the only articles that mean anything are the ones that support whatever our belief is...
Whew,,, did that make sense
#GMSTRONG
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McKay has officially pulled himself from the race as well. http://www.cleveland.com/brownsbeat/index.ssf/2009/01/cleveland_browns_gm_search_los.htmlAlso according to that article, the reason why we're looking at these secondary options like Sundquist and Polian isn't because we don't want to give Kokinis the job, but because Kokinis might want to stay in Baltimore. Now THAT would royally screw things up for us.
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Also according to that article, the reason why we're looking at these secondary options like Sundquist and Polian isn't because we don't want to give Kokinis the job, but because Kokinis might want to stay in Baltimore.
Now THAT would royally screw things up for us.
Oh BULL.... Once again, you believe what you want to belive.. Does this mean we are back to disagreeing
#GMSTRONG
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It makes perfect sense and that is exactly what Spectre is doing. There are so many reports out there that you can post a dozen to back your preconceived notions.
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Now THAT would royally screw things up for us.
I agree. This really might turn out to bite us in the ass!!!
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No, the burden of proof is on you. Please cite ONE TIME where a HC was not put in a position where the organization was built around giving him the best chance to suceed.
Every head coach gets to name his staff. Again, I'm not stupid and that is as basic as it comes. That is normally what being given the best chance to succeed means and I absolutely agree that's how it should be.
The real question is, how many first time hire head coaches are given the option to choose the GM candidate of their liking? There's a reason so many in the media are surprised by this process, and that's because it's so out of the ordinary.
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Oh BULL.... Once again, you believe what you want to belive.. Does this mean we are back to disagreeing
So you see GM candidates abandoning ship... Pioli, Heckert, now McKay, and the only one that remains is Kokinis, who Mangini has connections with, previously tried to hire once with New York and was blocked and praised in his first press conference. Suddenly, yesterday night, a couple potential interview targets surface out of the blue. Less than 24 hours later, a report comes out that says Kokinis may be leaning towards staying in Baltimore... and you think it's all just one big coincidence?
Didn't you guys ever play "Connect the Dots" when you were growing up?
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You still haven't proven that Mangini "named" his GM. I will tell you this, though. I have been in coaching long enough to know that when someone is brought on in a situation like this, it would only make sense for them to discuss who he thought he could work well with. Lerner and Mangini talked for 8 hours. You don't think it makes sense that they would toss some names around for the GM position? Then Lerner talked to Accorsi and Accorsi recommended Coke.
So what we know without your speculation (with no proof I might add) is that Lerner interviewed Pioli and McCreight for the GM position. He interviewed Mangini and Mangini brought up Coke's name (that's all we know for sure without your speculation). Lener discussed the situation with Accorsi. Accorsi recommended Coke for the job.
Now, where in the FACTS do you draw the conclusion that Mangini "dictated", "named", or anything OTHER than making a recommendation for the job?
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Coach...at least I have the onions to stand by what I said before the hirings...I wanted established leadership and I wanted a team built the right way...from hiring a GM with a good track record who then selects his HC and THEN together build a staff
You may understand now why I´m so pissed off about the way Lerner did it....and I am 100% sure I was in the majority on here by thinking that way...now, 2 weeks later...those same guys (don´t know about you Coach) are spinning their words written out of their a**** and sing a different song
I´m all for looking at the positives....but what´s going on here right now is more wishful thinking than anything.....we are back to a "gut feeling"-era, really....cause that´s all this is based on....all that power to Mangini cause Lerner had a gut feeling
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You wanted established leadership....you got in in an experienced HC. You wnated this thing built the right way....you got it. Ernie Accorsi has been involved in EVERY decision and he is one of the best football minds EVER. He is MUCH more qualified to be aiding in the search for a HC than Pioli or ANY GM that was available to hire. You do know Accorsi's history, irght?
I saw all of those wanting experience....I was one of them. I got what I wanted, an experienced HC, a great football mind aiding in the decision, and now I'm confidant we'll get a GM that will work WITH the HC. You got what you wanted, too, you just don't like the choice because he's not the flavor of the month.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943 |
Quote:
Former Denver GM Ted Sundquist and Chris Polian, Colts vice president of football operations, may be potential candidates.
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I really wouldn't mind Polian, but I don't think he will leave Indy. Isn't he supposed to replace his father at some point?
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227 |
Quote:
You still haven't proven that Mangini "named" his GM.
You still haven't proven that Lerner talked with Accorsi about Kokinis, even though it's highly likely he did. The thing is though, I can read between the lines and based off of Accorsi's comments about suggesting GMs to Blank in the past, I won't even debate the point because I can agree with it. For some reason, you refuse to do the same with the actual naming of the GM.
Do you really think that Lerner would throw Pioli/Ferentz/McDaniels, Heckert/Spagnuolo, McKay etc. completely out the window (which is what happened when he hired Mangini) without a guarantee that there was a guy above all the others that Mangini knew he wanted and could work with well? You think he got stratospherically higher than any other candidate on Lerner's post-hire list just by suggestions from Accorsi and Mangini, or do you think Mangini told Lerner "I want this guy?"
It's a very easy inference to make but I have a feeling it'll be impossible to convince you of it unless you read it on paper from multiple sources... so let's just leave it at that. We're going to have to agree to disagree here.
We're... we're good?
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227 |
Quote:
I really wouldn't mind Polian, but I don't think he will leave Indy. Isn't he supposed to replace his father at some point?
That was my impression as well. I think he'll be ridiculously hard to pull away from Indy, if not impossible. His dad is 65... he'll probably retire at some point in the near future.
We're... we're good?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,085
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,085 |
Quote:
The real question is, how many first time hire head coaches are given the option to choose the GM candidate of their liking?
I know of one,,, Belichick and Pioli and that's not even 100% accurate because Pioli doesn't have the title GM. He does however seem to have many of the duties of a traditional GM.
Which brings me to the point.. Titles don't mean diddly...
Make someone a GM and don't give them complete control, are they a GM in the traditional sense.... NO they aren't.
If you are looking for the TRADITIONAL GM,, then don't look at what Lerner is doing.. it's not the Traditional set up.
Remember something else, there isn't ONLY one way to run an organization. There are many ways that will work. But only if the right folks are in place. The chemistry between them has to be right and acceptance of the others view points have to be the rule not the exception.
You come on like as if there is only one way to do it and if they don't do it that way,,, then they are doomed.....
You know what,, if Kokinis doesn't want the job,, Fine,, Move on,,,, Find someone else... and please, DON'T even think of telling me that there isn't anyone else.. just because the name hasn't surfaced yet..
To operate any other way is nothing more than PANIC.....
Last edited by Damanshot; 01/09/09 05:21 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
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Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
I haven't proven that? I guess in all those articles you have read, you dismissed those that didn't have some way of being inferred to your point of view. You can "read betwen the lines"? LOL, enough said. I don't have to. I know the facts. You ignore them. Lerner took the advice of Accorsi and the research that showed the importance of an experienced HC. He made the hire based on the information available. He wil now hire a GM that will work with the HC. Those are the facts. You don't have to read between any lines to know them. You just have to stop dismissing the facts.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Interviews.....Continued
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