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No, you´re not the only 1...I think Kokinis is a good choice but not as a "recommendation" by the HC, nwho is known for being a control freak and not in this scenario with greenhorns everywhere in the org, ....add to that 2 losers at Coords and we have a crappy mix of regime running the show... Too much power for a 37yo HC who just lost his team and got fired for it....the Jets had one of the easiest, if not the easiest schedule in the NFL and choked at the end against crap competition I think we just picked the extreme opposite of RAC...that´s it...he said it himself: same schemes, same philosophy...just as a boot camp HC not as a daddy/buddy HC Love the optimism around here....but I just don´t see it...another Belly-disciple and another Newsome-FO disciple....we went that rout 4 years ago...just to find out that the HC was a nice guy and better DC and the GM was a good talent evaluator but in over his head with planing long term/building a team identity/philosophy etc I really can´t see how anyone can think we will be more successful with this regime than the old 1...I just don´t see it sorry 
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Yes, Lerner should listen to your advice much more than he should listen to Accorsi.........
Wait a minute? That doesn't sound right, now does it?
I think you're taking yourself WAY too seriously. Probably because you give WAY too much credit to people like the OBR and PFT.
Not my burden to bare. Considering the sources, I'll take the word of Accorsi when it comes to being credible in knowing what will work and what won't.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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But ( had to be one ) If I'm the guy ( Lerner ) who is calling the shots , and I know there are going to be the " Oh my God " by a bunch of folks >> Then why not have the brace b--ls and step up to the mike an introduce " Your Man " ????
Lerner is not an on-camera guy. I think since he's owned the Browns he's spoken on camera maybe twice, maybe not even that much. He was at the presser, he just had Keenan intro the coach. Lerner was, I believe, scheduled to do print media interviews after the presser, but, again, nothing on camera. (at least the post-presser interviews was something I heard somewhere, could be wrong)
Oh I understand that " Totally " .. But there are times when you " NEED " to step up to the plate ( opinion ) and I think this was one ..
I am going to swallow the pill .. As Pit says " Got no choice now "  .. Just take a wait and see attitude .. FA and draft will here before you know it !
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don't care how much praise your coach sings about him, to essentially guarantee him the job without an actual interview or competition is foolish.
Where do you get this stuff.. where did you read that that Kokinis is guaranteed the job? I wanna see the article where that was written.... show me
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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It's okay for Pioli to hire a HC ( something he's NEVER done without interviewing ANYBODY ELSE ), but after Lerner has experience under his belt in this department, it's NOT okay that he did it AFTER interviewing one GM guy and three other HC candidates.
You missed the point. The one GM guy he interviewed is NOT the one he hired. I don't care who recommends him, I don't care how much praise your coach sings about him, to essentially guarantee him the job without an actual interview or competition is foolish.
Man, you aren't ever satsified, are you?  First, you were complaining that Lerner did this all on his own. It has not only been reported, but CONFIRMED by the man himself that Accorsi advised Lerner on this situation.
Who guaranteed Coke the job, that's what I want to know. They interviewed Pioli, but Pioli wanted a rookie HC, against the advice of Accorsi.....a PROVEN SUCCESS in the game. They set up an interview with Heckert. Heckert canceled. Coke is going to be interviewed. Accorise recommended BOTH ... and Mangini. You got EVERYTHING you wanted in this situation. You got the research you claimed didn't happen. You had a great football mind in Accorsi advising Lerner and aiding with the decision. You got multiple contacts with multiple candidates. I'm starting to think you are complaining just to complain and warm up for the regular season
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I was wondering if anyone else noticed that. At-least i'm no the only one here who's mind is sometimes in the gutter.
Sometimes, mispellings can really get you into a strange place...
#GMSTRONG
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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In this case the darkest of places.
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Who is this Coke guy I have seen you referring to?
I haven't heard anything on him.
*edit*
Nevermind you must be referring to Kokinis.
Last edited by Cleveland_clutch; 01/08/09 04:08 PM.
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Sorry, that is Kokinis' nickname
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Well, if that were the case, then it would seem shortsighted,, but as things turn out,, you are mistaken about everything you just said...
You need to check your facts spec, some of us on here actually don't fall things that aren't accurate.. and you aren't.
So, with that, NO, it isn't stupid.
OK, let's debate facts. To start, the names we requested for the Browns GM search were Pioli, McKay, Heckert and Kokinis.
Fact: Lerner interviewed Pioli (although not extensively) as it was more exploratory than any serious negotiation. Lerner chose the head coach in Mangini over Pioli and not because Pioli was power hungry, which he was not.
Support: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/01/piolis_demands_not_an_issue_so.html
Fact: Rich McKay pulled out of his interview because "Atlanta was in the playoffs" but never rescheduled and thus, never interviewed.
Support: http://blog.cleveland.com/sports/2009/01/cleveland_browns_interviews_co.html
Fact: Tom Heckert cancelled his interview today after Mangini was hired because he didn't know him well enough.
Support: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/01/report_says_heckert_withdraws.html
Fact: We have not and cannot interview Kokinis until Sunday per the Ravens and if we hire him, we have to give him complete control over operations.
Support: http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/stories/index.ssf?/base/sports/1231234413121530.xml&coll=2
So... given that all of our other candidates have been eliminated and we only actually interviewed one so given the facts, here is my conclusion:
We have only interviewed one GM candidate. He is not the candidate we're going to hire. The only candidate remaining is Kokinis meaning that right now by process of elimination, unless another candidate surfaces, the job is his. He has not interviewed yet, but he has been recommended, partly by praise from Mangini. Yet, we're going to give him complete control over football operations, just like Phil Savage had.
I happen to think it's stupid to give a guy such an important position without actually interviewing him or interviewing more than one other candidate. You don't. My facts can now be considered "checked" unless you're expecting me to list secondary sources as well, which are out there. So, please show me where my facts are out of line. I'm dying to know.
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Figured it was short for someone but the different spelling threw me off. Carry on. 
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No, you´re not the only 1...I think Kokinis is a good choice but not as a "recommendation" by the HC, nwho is known for being a control freak and not in this scenario with greenhorns everywhere in the org, ....add to that 2 losers at Coords and we have a crappy mix of regime running the show...
Too much power for a 37yo HC who just lost his team and got fired for it....the Jets had one of the easiest, if not the easiest schedule in the NFL and choked at the end against crap competition
I think we just picked the extreme opposite of RAC...that´s it...he said it himself: same schemes, same philosophy...just as a boot camp HC not as a daddy/buddy HC
Love the optimism around here....but I just don´t see it...another Belly-disciple and another Newsome-FO disciple....we went that rout 4 years ago...just to find out that the HC was a nice guy and better DC and the GM was a good talent evaluator but in over his head with planing long term/building a team identity/philosophy etc
I really can´t see how anyone can think we will be more successful with this regime than the old 1...I just don´t see it sorry
First, ERNIE ACCORSI recommended Coke for the position, not just Mangini. Second, who are these "loser" coordinators you are referring to? Are you referring to the OC, who has been a pretty good coach on some pretty good teams, or are you referring to Ryan, who has been an outstanding DC that hasn't had the talent to make his D work because Al Davis has Alzheimer's?
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Yes, Lerner should listen to your advice much more than he should listen to Accorsi.........
It's impossible to get this through. I get that Accorsi recommended him. I read into that as soon as I read the Plain Dealer article. I also know that Mangini loves the guy. That's the START of a great process. Know what that makes the guy to me? A top candidate. A guy worth extensively interviewing. That DOES NOT mean that he should be essentially given the job before his interview. I don't care if Paul Brown rises from the grave and recommends him, I still want to sit down with the guy and figure out exactly what kind of person he is and what his vision is for myself.
I am absolutely flabbergasted at the amount of people posting that don't think an extensive interview process is a necessary step before giving a guy complete control of your football operations without competition.
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Just wanted to reply to something you posted in a now locked thread Coach......... Quote:
J/C....I just listened to the presser and I have to say I'm more convinced this was the right move than I was before. This guy understands the Browns. He has a firm grasp of the system. The philosophy he brings on offense and defense are pretty much the same and allows continuity that Lerner wanted to have, and he has proven e can coach. There are no guarantees no matter who you bring in, but our odds of being successful, IMO, just shot up.
This is the best case scenario given our options IMO.
And I'm far MORE excited with this hire than any since our 99 comeback! I like re-tooling under a guy with some NFL HC experience, rather than a total re-build under a HC with NO NFL HC experience. One who has two winning seasons out of three.
Yes Coach, I believe he could be "Our Bellichick"! And I'm not bashfull about it!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Fact: Tom Heckert cancelled his interview today after Mangini was hired because he didn't know him well enough.
Support: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/01/report_says_heckert_withdraws.html
No where in that article does it state that Heckert pulled his name because he doesn't know Mangini. It states that he wanted input on who the coach would be. So you can withdraw your FACT and SUPPORT for this one.
From the article you listed:
Quote:
Heckert agreed to interview with the Browns before Mangini was hired, and wanted input on hiring the head coach.
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Who says Kokinis has full control?
I think the whole idea of this situtation and the reason for the hirings being done the way they are is that we are setting this up to be an organization based on consensus descisions (as stated in Manginis press conference)
It's not going to be a dictatorship, it's going to be a democracy. Where everyone can put their heads down and come up with a group generated descision.
I think that is why these hirings have come into fold the way they have. A situation where a group of "friends" who have respect for one another can come to descision based on the best possible direction for the team. As to avoid power struggles and conflict.
Manginis "brain trust" if you will.
Everyone states "team" on a football squad. Why can't that be said the same for the front office? If you got guy's in there who don't respect and don't know each other then the entire organization is going to fail..
I can't say that i'm 100% sure that it will work but I can see the direction they are aiming for.
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Yeah, I´m talking about Ryan who OAK was happy to unload and Daboll who has never been a OC and has not even been Manginis 1st choice....they may be all great, nobody knows yet....I just think 2 things: 1. Their body of work isn´t overwhelming...Ryan had his D ranked at the bottom of the league for 5 years now...he might be better with better talent, but he does not seem to get more out of what he has to work with...which is AVG at best...Daboll otoh was the Jets QB Coach who had crappy QB play this year and had the league kleader in INTs....add to the fact that he never called plays at any level...wow, what a vitae...think we couldn´t have done better? or is it because he is buds with our new alpha male? Cmon, let´s be honest here... 2. The mixture we put together is NOT very experienced...1st time GM, 1st time OC, 37yo HC, who has 3 years of experience OVERALL as HC at any level.... And I happen to think that this franchise lacks direction from the top MORE THAN ANYTHING....we´re the training school of the NFL....awesome 
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No where in that article does it state that Heckert pulled his name because he doesn't know Mangini. It states that he wanted input on who the coach would be. So you can withdraw your FACT and SUPPORT for this one.
When someone says they want input on who the coach would be, that's GM speak for "I want to pick the coach myself". It means he wants to pick someone he knows and has worked with, not someone he doesn't know like Mangini. It's the exact same thing Pioli was quoted as saying when everyone said he was locked onto Ferentz. Heckert wanted Spagnuolo and when Mangini was hired, he withdrew. If Spagnuolo were hired, Heckert would be aboard, just like Kokinis is aboard despite having no input on Mangini. What's so hard about that to understand? If anything, your only argument against that point is semantics.
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I am absolutely flabbergasted at the amount of people posting that don't think an extensive interview process is a necessary step before giving a guy complete control of your football operations without competition.
And I'm flabergasted that you can't see, ESPECIALY after our last debacle here, just how critical it is that these guys MUST be on the same page GOING INTO this process!
I guess you'd just like to find somebody NOT having a good friendship or relationship with Mangini, toss them in a room and hope everything turns out okay?
Or take a guy like Pioli and HOPE he knows that some college coach works out?
Even AFTER saying you think Coke is a very good candidate?
Dude, you've lost it IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Who says Kokinis has full control?
The Ravens do - if we want to hire him away that is.
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Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I don't follow the Raiders closely enough (for obvious reasons that they are the Raiders), but from what I have read, Rob Ryan had his defense get better for 3 straight years (culminating in a very good unit 3 years ago), then Lane Kiffin was hired and forced him into a 4-3 defense which is not what he wanted nor how he had constructed that side of the ball.
He was so upset with it that he tried to bail on Oakland last July for Mangini's Jets but they forced him to coach the last year on his contract.
Not sure I would be so quick to condemn Ryan for his time in Oakland. I won't commend him because he didn't rise above what was happening around him, but I think he'll do allright with us.
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I happen to think it's stupid to give a guy such an important position without actually interviewing him or interviewing more than one other candidate
I think it's stupid you keep saying that when it hasn't happened.
The FULL CONTROL is the language that would have to be put in a contract for any of those guys to leave their present team..what don't U get about that???
Once Kok is interviewed , then what Spectre?
U won't be able to spew that out..fact is nothing has been done yet..so why U keep crying this?
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Quote:
Quote:
I am absolutely flabbergasted at the amount of people posting that don't think an extensive interview process is a necessary step before giving a guy complete control of your football operations without competition.
And I'm flabergasted that you can't see, ESPECIALY after our last debacle here, just how critical it is that these guys MUST be on the same page GOING INTO this process!
I guess you'd just like to find somebody NOT having a good friendship or relationship with Mangini, toss them in a room and hope everything turns out okay?
Or take a guy like Pioli and HOPE he knows that some college coach works out?
Even AFTER saying you think Coke is a very good candidate?
Dude, you've lost it IMO
It's fine that everyone has to be on the same page going into this process. I agree with that completely. Where have I ONCE said that does not have to be the case?
That has nothing to do with giving a job without an interview. It's not HOPING for anything, it's conducting due diligence.
The only ones that have lost it are guys like you, sipping the Kool Aid and calling Mangini the next Belichick without even a day passing since his hiring. Could he be? Yes. To say he is already is more than just optimism. Optimism is good. Blind optimism is bad. Everyone loved Butch. "In Phil We Trust" echoed through the halls. Pardon me for questioning the process this time around. In the end, THAT is where I have a problem, not in the hire itself.
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On paper.........
Yeah, Ozzie is going to love giving us permission for the hire if we jack another guy from his organization and sign him to a phony deal.
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FYI there is only one person who has full control over the Browns, no it's not the next GM it's Randy Lerner.
You are complaining just to complain right now.
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 Ryan is gone from Oakland because Oakland wants to run a 4-3 and Ryan is a 3-4 coach. Ryan didn't get the most out of talent he was given? Oooookkkkk. It's quite possible that WAS the best he could get out of the talent provided. It's the old silk purse/sow's ear thing  You are going to blame a coach for a HOF QB hitting the wall and playing poorly? Yep, you are so right, that's all on him. After all, Favre is SO coachable. I like Favre and admire what he's done, but if you think he was going to listen to any coach at this point in his career, walk away from the pipe, my man, the brain cells are dangerously low. What when the Jets went 3-5 with CLEMENS. I guess that is someone that was terrible, huh? Also, Mangini wants to bring Callahan in, as well.....and EXPERIENCED OC that is very good. You don't think he would help a rookie OC and have input into the play calling? Some people just don't get it. They look at numbers and think that explains a situation, a coach, a player, or a franchise. Pretty sad. Add to that the false statement that we have no direction. We have an owner who wanted to capitalize on what was here and decided on an experienced HC and had one of the best football minds in the game to help him with the decision. We have continuity in offensive and defensive philosphy. We have successful coaches now running our team. We are looking for a GM that will WORK HAND IN HAND with the HC. Naw, we have no direction whatsoever on this team.
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Pardon me for questioning the process this time around. In the end, THAT is where I have a problem, not in the hire itself.
And the question you keep getting back is if the process ends up getting you where you need to be, then who cares if it was the right process?
If someone takes off for Niagara Falls in an old beater car without directions, but is able to follow road signs and has the good fortune of their car not breaking down...hey, guess what. They got where they were going, all is well.
If that same person takes off for Niagara Falls the next time in a newer car with directions to take a shorter route, but has the misfortune of not seeing the correct exit and their car breaking down outside Buffalo, then they are stuck in Buffalo with a broken down vehicle.
Yes, both of those have happened to me and my point is we should only care about the end result. The process only matters BEFORE things have taken place. We already have our HC, so stop b!tching about how we got him.
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You are complaining just to complain right now.
I have already said that if we actually went through the full process and still arrived at the Mangini/Kokinis pairing in the end, I'd be completely satisfied that we had the best option for the team. I'm not complaining just to complain, I'm complaining because once Mangini was interviewed, that just didn't happen. There's a reason why we've had multiple guys cancel their interviews on us and it's not because they felt this was going to be a fair and objective process with nothing decided ahead of time.
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I get that, I'm not a moron. (and I'm not insinuating that you've said that about me). YOU stated that Heckert withdrew his name "because he doesn't know Mangini" and that isn't the case. Yes he wanted to make his own choice, and he already had that choice made, and he wasn't going to be able to hire his buddy. Lerner went with Mangini and Heckert's just taking his ball and going home because he wasn't going to get to hire Spags.
Big deal. If I truly want a job, I don't take my name out of consideration because someone that I will work with isn't my choice and I can't hire my buddy. Perhaps the guy that's there may end up being the better choice, you don't know until you try. And don't get me wrong, I like Heckert. I cheer for the Eagles as long as they aren't playing the Browns and I think Heckert has done a good job in Philly. I just think he's acting like a spoiled child right now.
Lerner wasn't going to allow Heckert, or Pioli, to bring in their buddies as HC. To me, that says that Lerner valued the HC experience over anything either of them (GM candidates) could offer the team and said, you boys work with Mangini, or you don't work here. Obviously, Heckert said he doesn't want to work here and Pioli is more than likely going to KC. That's their perogative, just as it's Lerner's to hire Mangini or whomever else he wants. It's his team to run as he sees fit.
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Yeah, Ozzie is going to love giving us permission for the hire if we jack another guy from his organization and sign him to a phony deal.
On the same token Ozzie would shoot himself in the foot in future staff hirings by not allowing a member of the staff grow career wise, it's not one sided like your trying to make it. The input on hiring an NFL Coach isn't the be all end all of the GM.
It CAN be worked out so your complaining well, just to complain.
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And the question you keep getting back is if the process ends up getting you where you need to be, then who cares if it was the right process?
If someone takes off for Niagara Falls in an old beater car without directions, but is able to follow road signs and has the good fortune of their car not breaking down...hey, guess what. They got where they were going, all is well.
If that same person takes off for Niagara Falls the next time in a newer car with directions to take a shorter route, but has the misfortune of not seeing the correct exit and their car breaking down outside Buffalo, then they are stuck in Buffalo with a broken down vehicle.
Yes, both of those have happened to me and my point is we should only care about the end result. The process only matters BEFORE things have taken place. We already have our HC, so stop b!tching about how we got him.
And which of those two gave you the better odds of getting there. Just because you had good luck the first time and bad luck the second time doesn't mean you didn't beat the odds.
What Lerner is doing right now is using an abbreviated process to make a selection. That process could easily generate a perennial contender and make everyone forget about it. It could also create another situation that implodes by picking the wrong people. Doing more research reduces the odds that that happens.
I know we have a head coach. I know this is the process we got him by and yes, I will live with it just fine because I have no choice. The point is, I don't want to be burned again and without proper preparation, those odds increase. Hence I'm a bit frustrated and have every right to be, despite what everyone thinks.
Again, my problem is not the hires, it's the way the hires came about.
We're... we're good?
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Posts: 1,227 |
Understood. I wish that wasn't the way it was either, but unfortunately that's how things seem to work from what we've seen. On the same hand though, do you resent Mangini for getting his buddy in here?
We're... we're good?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
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OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
Lerner wasn't going to allow Heckert, or Pioli, to bring in their buddies as HC. To me, that says that Lerner valued the HC experience over anything either of them (GM candidates) could offer the team and said, you boys work with Mangini, or you don't work here. Obviously, Heckert said he doesn't want to work here and Pioli is more than likely going to KC. That's their perogative, just as it's Lerner's to hire Mangini or whomever else he wants. It's his team to run as he sees fit.
DING DING DING!
We have a winner...this is exactly what when through RL's mind..he wanted to avoid any communication problems with a GM and the HC.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227 |
Quote:
On the same token Ozzie would shoot himself in the foot in future staff hirings by not allowing a member of the staff grow career wise, it's not one sided like your trying to make it. The input on hiring an NFL Coach isn't the be all end all of the GM.
He certainly would be stupid to do that. That doesn't mean that he appreciates Randy constantly raiding his cupboard of top talent every time a GM opening comes along, especially if, as you insinuate, Kokinis won't have the control that his contract stipulates he must have. I bet you that if he could block the move outright, he would without hesitation, simply because it's us... again.
We're... we're good?
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088 |
I'm gonna make you feel better Spec
YOU ARE RIGHT, THE REST OF US ARE WRONG...
Feel better now?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Again, my problem is not the hires, it's the way the hires came about
but now you are back to my point. if you think a more thorough process with more interviews would have given you a better chance at getting hires that you like, then that is fine. you are entitled to that opinion.
however, if you have no problem with the people that got hired, then count your lucky stars that you got to Niagara in that beat-up car and enjoy your time at the casino.
#gmstrong
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Poser
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Poser
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How has Mangini gotten his buddy here? He hasn't been hired. He was also recommended by ERNIE ACCORSI. I would say that Mangini being able to work with him and Ernie Accorsi recommending, along with how wel he interviews will be what gets him the job if he gets it. I guess Lerner should take advice from us instead of Ernie Accorsi on how to successfully build his team? Sorry, btut the process was done through the guidance of one of the most successful execs in the NFL. I'l trust that he knows the process better than any of us.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Ryan had his D ranked at the bottom of the league for 5 years now...
That's not exactly true.. in 2006, the Raiders defense was pretty darn good...
And it's funny, Wikipedia already has this..
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Rob Ryan (born December 13, 1962 in Ardmore, Oklahoma), is the defensive coordinator of the Cleveland Browns.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 582
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
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Also, Mangini wants to bring Callahan in, as well.....and EXPERIENCED OC that is very good.
Coach, i respect you, but listening to Callahan's pressers in his last 2 jobs prior to the jets, and seeing the onfield results of the last 2 jobs prior to the jets doesn't inspire any confidence in him for me. Anyone that cant win at Nebraska, i dont want him.
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