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Ok, but he's still gonna need the horses to pull it off....
Last edited by Damanshot; 01/12/09 04:23 PM.
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I'm curious to see what the new staff will be able to get out of Kam and Alex Hall....maybe nothing more than the previous staff did. But you never know what might happen with compitent people coaching them, and a HC who actually has a real training camp, and not summer camp.
We defiantly need more players, but our scheme, playing selection, fundamentals were all so poor over the last few years...who knows what these players might look like with, well, some real NFL coaching.
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All I'm asking for,, all I've ever asked for was for the team to play aggresive.. All I've ever wanted them to do is play hard.. if they do that, yeah, they may make some mistakes..
But they will be acts of Commission not acts of omission.
If Ryan and Daboll give me that, I'll be a happy man.
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I have wondered and speculated about that. I mean, did Phil draft that badly? Or hasn't our coaching staff developed the talent Phil brought in properly? Or did Phil bring in guys who just don't fit the scheme?
IMO- The jury is still out on a lot of that. But I sure haven't seen a lot of "development" around here whatever the problem was.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
I mean, did Phil draft that badly? Or hasn't our coaching staff developed the talent Phil brought in properly? Or did Phil bring in guys who just don't fit the scheme?
We may be about to find out. For instance, if Mangini and/or Ryan can't get more out of Wimbley than RAC and Tucker/grantham did, then we'll know it was the pick not the coaching. I would think that the same is true in reverse.
Either that or Wimbley is such a unique talent that he needs his own scheme designed just for him... Not sure that's worth thinking about.
Does that make sense?
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It seemed that Kam intially had the talent to become Demarcus Ware...but it's like he's never gotten better. I'm not blaming it all on the coaches, but who on our defense, or offense for that matter has gotten better?
Can someone name a player that has made noticable improvement?
Cribbs? Harrison? Pool? DQ? But 3 of the 4 really just came on this year, so they really havent had a chance to go foward.
Everyone else has went backwards, BE, KW2, DA, KAM, S Jones, the OL, Bodden, CW.
Some players like Dra and Stallworth are just trash and need cut, but some of these other guys that maybe are on fans blacklist, you never know. I wouldnt write any guys off till we see them again, after camp.
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Quote:
Does that make sense?
Yes, and I was looking "big picture". It's not just Kam. Browns fan Z expounded on my point pretty much. I think it was systemic.
I really can't think of many players who were brought in here that "developed and matured" after their arrival. I guess you can count Cribbs. But he was a QB before he came here with mad skill.
So was he "developed" or simply given more oppertunities to utilize his talents? I'm not sure........
But it doesn't seem isolated to Kam per say IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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One thing Ryan was able to do with Oakland was get a lot out of his linebackers. Thomas Howard and Kirk Morrison are absolute beasts. Both of them, I believe, were drafted and developed under Ryan.
you had a good run Hank.
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I wonder if we will see us trade for Thomas Howard or Derrick Burgess...both can get the QB. Also, the obvious, hopefully Ryan has a relationship with Nambdi, and he comes on as FA.
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Dunno if we can afford a Nnamdi ... How much did Asante Samuel receive last year from the iggles? Take that and tak on another 3-4 million probably and you'll have what he's asking for (and probably going to receive.)
There are no sacred cows.
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I don't think it's a matter of if we could want to pay him...he's staying in Oakland. Davis will franchise him again or sign him longterm. There's no way he lets one of the top 3 corners in the game walk for nothing.
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Quote:
How much did Asante Samuel receive last year from the iggles? Take that and tak on another 3-4 million probably and you'll have what he's asking for (and probably going to receive.)
After spending his first five seasons in New England, Samuel signed a six-year, $57 million contract with $20 million guaranteed with the Eagles and has been worth every penny
http://cbs3.com/topstories/asante.samuel.eagles.2.899766.html
This is a prime example of why you "draft CB's."
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I certainly think some players will be better used with a new coaching staff in place, even if we run the exact same system under the last regime. It happens with every team whenever a coaching change occurs, some players don't do as well with a new staff and some overachieve. I'm really crossing my fingers that Ryan can the best out of some of our guys, especially the young cornerbacks and Wimbley.
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Just clicking'
All this talk about what will and won't happen with the new staff.. or what FA's we can get...
I gotta say this, and I know I'm gonna get razzed for it, but I think there might be talent on this team that RAC and his staff didn't motivate to play to thier maximum ability...
It's just that from time to time, we saw things from about all of them to think,, maybe,, just maybe..
I guess we'll see.
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Eck, for some reason i thought it was like 47 million. But, that's 57 million tops i guess, so looks can be deceiving ... Still a pretty penny.
Last edited by Draftdayz; 01/12/09 08:14 PM.
There are no sacred cows.
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I really can't think of many players who were brought in here that "developed and matured" after their arrival. I guess you can count Cribbs. But he was a QB before he came here with mad skill.
I have to lean towards poor coaching. The guys that were drafted were good players. Many players of their caliber and lesser talent went to other teams and developed nicely. Ever notice that the guys we see as "finds" or good pick ups always seem to be late round guys? The reason is they aren't expected to contribute, and when they do they stand out. Our top draft guys have come in and remained where they were when they got here.
Wimbley's rookie season was outstanding, yet everyone knew he had to learn more moves and get stronger. Has he? That's what coaches do. He should have been took aside and tutored to perfect his skills. IMO he was expected to learn these things on his own. I've coached at the lowest of levels, yet when I saw a kid with talent, I tried to help the kid improve his play by taking the talent he had and honing it. Did anyone ever hear of Wimbley being taught new moves or techniques? Was there a concerned effort to add to his strength?
All I saw since the Bentley mishap, was a coaching staff the coddled players and were afraid to let them practice hard thinking someone else would be lost. The fundamentals of the game are sorely lacking and it is evident every Sunday.
I hope Mangini's reputation for disipline is true. Ryan's also. Our defense for ten years now has been very undisiplined and soft. Hopefully these guys see the talent on this team and make a effort to develop some of it. Guys like Pool, Jones, Jackson, and both corners need to learn to play disiplined football. They all at times seem to freelance, at least that's how I describe it.
Offensively, the team ran the same offense for two years, and starters still didn't know where to line up. Players other than the QB are giving orders in the huddle. Missed blocking assignments, false starts, illegal formations. These are all signs of laxed coaching, no disipline, and no personal responsibility. IMO all signs of the way they were coached.
I'm keeping a open mind with a slightly positive attitude towards what's happening on the coaching front. I think Lerner sees that winning comes from training properly and preparing completely. I'm hoping that when I go to camp this year I see guys being coached. I want them pushed to the point of breaking and built back up the way it is supposed to be. DISIPLINE...plain and simple, with an eye on bringing out the best these guys have to offer.
Bottom line is, screw the prima donnas on this team, work them to the bone until they understand that the way it's been here for ten years or more is finally unacceptable. I want attitude, but a winning one, not a cocky one.
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Quote:
I gotta say this, and I know I'm gonna get razzed for it, but I think there might be talent on this team that RAC and his staff didn't motivate to play to thier maximum ability...
Maybe all three of us will get razzed. You, eryze19akaBT58, and me. But I tend to lean in that direction as well. I mean the jury is still out. But I'd be surprised if Mangini couldn't get more out of some of our current players than many expected based on what they've seen so far.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
Quote:
I gotta say this, and I know I'm gonna get razzed for it, but I think there might be talent on this team that RAC and his staff didn't motivate to play to thier maximum ability...
Maybe all three of us will get razzed. You, eryze19akaBT58, and me. But I tend to lean in that direction as well. I mean the jury is still out. But I'd be surprised if Mangini couldn't get more out of some of our current players than many expected based on what they've seen so far.
JMHO
Allow me to throw my hat in the mix as well with this.
I really think the schemes didn't take advantage of the strengths of the players. That being said...our defense was slow, no question. I think it was a combination of both.
The fact we add Shaun Rogers and Corey Williams and get WORSE in run defense speaks volumes to me, IMO.
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Hey, does that make us the ...Razzberries......  They were a Cleveland band I believe (Raspberries w/Eric Carmen) Anyway enough of that foolishness. I wouldn't be surprised if more join us in our thinking, as I have to believe that their are many who witnessed what we did, but have not made the connection yet. I always liked RAC, but when my son who's 13 comments on how easy training camp seemed, he is playing for his second year now, and said he wished his practice was that easy. He would laugh as the ran "sprints". It was more like jogging and joking with each other. Now looking back, I have to say I think RAC was in over his head. I do feel in good company though and hope we all are right not for our sake, but for our Browns. 
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While I agree with the premise of this latest discussion, it's more because I'm forced to believe rather than having any intrinsic knowledge of the situation. Since we can't exactly fire the "team", we pretty much have to believe the coaching staff stifled the players progress and not simply that they suck. That's just me though. 
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That being said...our defense was slow,
Besides a lack of disipline, speed is the most evident weakness they have. Watching the playoffs seeing the top defenses and the speed they have really contrasts the lack of with the Browns.
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Since we can't exactly fire the "team", we pretty much have to believe the coaching staff stifled the players progress and not simply that they suck.
I just can't see it as probable that they missed on so many players, it is possible, but highly improbable
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Maybe all three of us will get razzed. You, eryze19akaBT58, and me. But I tend to lean in that direction as well. I mean the jury is still out. But I'd be surprised if Mangini couldn't get more out of some of our current players than many expected based on what they've seen so far.
Yup... the alternative is that the players are the problem and that means that no matter the coaching staff, we are still gonna suck...LOL
Someone else brought it up about an easy camp... if Mangini stays true to form, this is gonna change bigtime... Reports out of NY said he was a freakish task master in his first camp....
Good,, we could use another 10 or more win season...
you know, when I talk about the talent level I was mostly talking about the Defense... but when the thought is applied to the offense, it becomes even more likely that we have talent...
Some obvious holes like RT or RG, a need for a number 2 receiver and a mental reset for BE's brain... A tough runner wouldn't hurt either.
I kinda wanted to see what would happen if we kept DA and Quinn. .But I'm thinking that a journeyman QB as a back up and a trade of DA might bring us something we could really use.
I guess we'll see soon
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Damanshot
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Reports out of NY said he was a freakish task master in his first camp....
If Mangini comes out in leather hip boots and a whip, I'm outta here!
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So it's more probable that nearly half of our starters on both sides of the ball are unmotivated than just plain suck...lol. Either way Phil did a crappy job if half of the guys he brought in need a coach to ride them constantly to be "motivated" to play up to their ability.
It doesn't matter if it's lack of motivation or talent, because they are still going to need replaced. You think a hard ass like Mangini is going to put up with a bunch of lazy and lackadaisical goof offs?? Nah......he'll weed them out by year 2. Folks we aren't going through another rebuilding project (and when you fire your whole FO that's what it is) because we are on the verge of greatness...lol. This team will be severely overhauled over the next 2 years. Granted, I doubt to the extent we saw under Opie/RAC, becuase they did leave more to work with, but it will still probably see 10 new starters over the next 2 years. That is still a major indictment on just how "good" Savage was as a GM.
Whether the problem was getting guys with talent, or getting guys with the work ethic and set of stones to want to get better is debatable. However, the results aren't, and he simply wasn't a very good GM...........sorry to burst some of you guys bubble.
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Quote:
Quote:
How much did Asante Samuel receive last year from the iggles? Take that and tak on another 3-4 million probably and you'll have what he's asking for (and probably going to receive.)
After spending his first five seasons in New England, Samuel signed a six-year, $57 million contract with $20 million guaranteed with the Eagles and has been worth every penny
http://cbs3.com/topstories/asante.samuel.eagles.2.899766.html
This is a prime example of why you "draft CB's."
So you understand that he was the 120th pick in the draft in the fourth round? But yes he was drafted, what's the point. 
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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If Mangini comes out in leather hip boots and a whip, I'm outta here!
Oh man,, what a visual,, I just tossed my breakfast all over the place 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Fess up you liked the image
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Fess up you liked the image
Well, yeah in a way I did..... I'm have been known to be a little kinky....
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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I knew it, I just knew it  Does anybody know if Ryan's contract expired with the Raiders at 12 PM last night, or if it expires at 12PM tonight.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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You mean 12am? I'm taking it that it expired this morning at 12am, because I had read earlier that they were going to announce him and Daboll today.
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"Then again, Mangini is considered a bit of a control freak and he’s a defensive guy himself."
Odd for this writer to state this...I haven't read one thing regarding him being a control freak with the Jets. He made inputs and actually he's been applauded for his inputs. (as this writer even mentioned about Leon Washington being used). Actually thats what a HC should do.
Odd for this writer to state that...considering Ryan feels his dream job as Defensive Coordinator would lie with Mangini. He tried to go to the Jets last year...and now it was considered an Automatic to come here. Why would an experience DC with a good reputation...CHOOSE working under a Control Freak without even exploring other teams out there!
I liked most of the article but that part miffed me a little bit as he was describing Belicheck in his first stint here. But not once did I read that in the NY press about Mangini and those guys threw him to the Stake and lit the bon fire.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Hand me my dunce cap please Yes I ment AM 
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"I really can't think of many players who were brought in here that "developed and matured" after their arrival. I guess you can count Cribbs."
I think you can most definitely include DQ...he's developed nicely. I didn't like our LB coach...his background was 4-3 and was living off of his past laurels. I didn't see him helping our OLBs at all. Actually Wimbley's best year by far was his first where McGinnest took him under his wing...Wimbley didn't even drink water unless McG did. Then our LB coach took over and he's been retarded.
Vickers shocked me in his development at FB - Joe Thomas who came to us pretty well developed, obviously. McD and EW I think were developing well and have a good foundation on a pretty good future.
I thought we squeezed blood out of stone in developing Fraser.
It wasn't all bad...but definately something was missing. I didn't like Haluchuck at all.
I think Pool has played out of position.
So many came down on Robiskie as the WR coach...question is what has Chandler done? Nobody has questioned his abilities.
Just thought I'd let you know it hasn't been a total disaster....as unrealistic you might think my point of view is - I don't think I was unrealistic in this observation.
JMHO
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I mentioned Chandler in another thread a while back..but I don't know..whats he got to really work with?
Not a lot of talent there..if you just chalk up Edwards as a headcase..then we have nothing at the WR spot..Dainty Stallworthless is too injury prone ..there's just nothing there ..
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Odd for this writer to state this...I haven't read one thing regarding him being a control freak with the Jets. He made inputs and actually he's been applauded for his inputs. (as this writer even mentioned about Leon Washington
I wish I could find them right now but EO,, there were quite a few articles posted on here where players said that his first year there he was a total control freak... and ran a tough tough camp.
But in the end, the players hailed his actions as things that were needed.. ala the Leon Washington quotes... I really get the feeling that the players liked Mangini at the end... but in the beginning, I think there may have been mutany afoot
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I really can't think of many players who were brought in here that "developed and matured" after their arrival.
I was thinking about this and I think I can name a few that progressed and then in some cases regressed.
Braylon Edwards started out OK,, got injured, got better, has a spectacular year and then regressed last year.
KW2 I think progressed until last year
Harrison.. well, to be fair, maybe he didn't progress as much as he just got a chance to play and show what he could do.. But then again, the progress may have been what he showed in camp to earn himself playing time..hard to tell really
Lewis came back to life his first year here.. that may have been internal, but I have to belive there was at least some outside pressure to improve.
DQ Jackson improved each year
Jones was in an upward spiral until injury
Pool improved
Wright improved year over year
McDonald improved from year one to year two
Joe Thomas regressed a little but was still pretty solid
Dinkins improved as well.
Cribbs
Thats the guys that improved and some that regressed under the same regime.
There are those that didn't lose a step from one year to the other.. No improvement but no drop either
Fraley
Stienbach
And then there are those High Profile guys that regressed from year one to now.
Wimbley
Davis
McGinist... (that may be more age than anything)
Basically, I'm sure there is some disagreement with a few of them, but I think thats fairly accurate....
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But yes he was drafted, what's the point.
For some reason, I had a feeling the concept would escape you.
Compare quality FA CB's contracts to quality FA LB contracts.
The point is very simple. Drafting a CB and signing FA LB's is a far more cap friendly way of addressing our needs.
This draft is very deep at LB. Signing a FA LB, drafting a CB in round 1 and drafting a LB in round 2 makes a LOT of sense from a salary cap standpoint.
Not saying that is the formula we'll follow. Just pointing out how much more cap friendly using this formula would be.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
Quote:
But yes he was drafted, what's the point.
For some reason, I had a feeling the concept would escape you.
Compare quality FA CB's contracts to quality FA LB contracts.
The point is very simple. Drafting a CB and signing FA LB's is a far more cap friendly way of addressing our needs.
This draft is very deep at LB. Signing a FA LB, drafting a CB in round 1 and drafting a LB in round 2 makes a LOT of sense from a salary cap standpoint.
Not saying that is the formula we'll follow. Just pointing out how much more cap friendly using this formula would be.
The way I see it...
FA LB
Round 1 LB
Round 2 LB
I wanna emulate what Pittsburgh did in 2007 with Timmons and Woodley. That has paid off HUGE for them.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,819
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,819 |
Tab and Damon........
DQJ was in his third year. Just "playing the game" for three years teaches you something. And his speed helps too.
I'm not saying "nobody progressed". But overall, I think there's a lot of "underdeveloped talent" on our team. To some extent, a natural progression takes place based on experience alone. IMO, that's a given.
But technique in tackling, playing out of position, and a general lack of cohesiveness among certain units IMO lays squarely at the feet of the coaching staff. The "basics" alone would make many of these players far more productive than we've seen.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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