|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656
Dawg Talker
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656 |
Excellent point, Shep. There's no way to tell exactly what this team will need by the draft. There may be holes filled and/or other holes created.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205 |
Quote:
Personally, I am not 100% sold on either guy we have at QB, and am all for keeping both of them until it gets sorted out. I am not sold on Quinn based on 1 game against the worst defense in the league, and Anderson's performance last season doesn't fill me with loads of confidence either.
Or maybe you trade both of them for low 1st rounders, draft Beanie Wells AND Shady McCoy, and let Cribbs run a Wishbone. A little later on in the draft, take QB Pat White from West Va.
I am only 3/4 joking about this ... Mangini was innovative, offensively speaking, as the Jets coach - I recall some goofy formations and schemes when the Browns played them in 07. Plus, running a version of the 'Bone offense would revive meaning for the whole "Dawg" thing. Think of it ... the Eric Mangini "Dawgbone Offense" ... could be fun.
Or not.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212 |
Quote:
Quote:
unless Crabtree is sitting there when we draft....It isn't impossible we drafted him.
That's my take on it also. It wouldn't totally surprise me if we drafted him. I do wonder, though, if we try to trade down and there are no takers, do we draft and try to trade him?
Anything is possible, but if Crabtree is drafted at 5, i would guess Edwards would be the one traded. And i really don't like the idea of a WR that high. Edwards might be on the block though reguardless...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205 |
Quote:
It wouldn't totally surprise me if we drafted him. I do wonder, though, if we try to trade down and there are no takers, do we draft and try to trade him? I mean a team that wants him thinks there's no way the Browns will draft him, so they don't trade up to the 5 spot. The Browns then take him and say, now it's going to cost you to get him. Is this a realistic possibility?
Or maybe you just take Crabtree to be your #1 WR, and trade Edwards for a mid 1st rounder. Its effectively the same as a trade-down, except you upgrade at WR (Crabtree > Edwards, IMO).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,084
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,084 |
Quote:
Someone else has already mentioned this but weren't we told that one of the things that Mangini told Lerner was that he could win with this roster?
I seem to remember that that is what was reported and I think that mangini may have mentioned that in his first presser. Not 100% sure.
But then, I can see where he goes in to the film room, takes a long look at key players and says,,, Hmm,, maybe I was wrong about a few of them.
I think letting our FA's walk and trading KW isn't really saying that we can't win with this roster with just the normal turnover that occurs on everyteam every year.
Quote:
I know every new coach wants to put his "mark" on the team, but damn, do we have the start of another "5 year plan"?
I hope that's not what it means.. that would truly suck big time.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
Quote:
They can change all they want, but I am not giving any 5 years.
Well, nobody gets that much time but I bet all the FOs in the NFL would love to try..... 
I'm not quite as ready to burn the Quinn bridge as you appear to be. But whoever the QB is I definitely want some positive results by the end of this year.
I'm just worried that we are on that dirt road and it's about to get even bumpier.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,448
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,448 |
.. " The Browns have lost over 100 games in 10 years. After 10 years of pathetic football, what do you expect from the people who spend their hard earned money on this poor replacement for the team we once had? .. " ... The shame of a once proud franchise  ... I admit to being a " Half full Dawg " any more ... But everyday , just like clock work , I log in and try and put my happy face on !  .. Just doesn't last long ( happy ) .. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
If we trade Edwards I will be very disappointed. If we then waste a high draft pick on a receiver I will be doubly disappointed. We need to be using those picks to bolster all the holes on our defense, not to replace serviceable young vets. Going into the draft with Cribbs, Steptoe, Hubbard, and Stallworth is a recipe for disaster unless we can find a way to swindle a team on draft day the way the Pats did with Randy Moss. We absolutely cannot count on JJ being back until we actually see him on the field, and signing an old stopgap like Coles is pointless. It does not take five years to turn a team around in today's NFL. This draft needs to be about defense, not offensive skill players. Steelers and Ravens do just fine with above average skill guys because they have monster defenses. D needs to be the focus.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,448
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,448 |
Trading both BE & DA would not surprise me in the least ! ... I would still love ti see the Browns bring in Leftwhich 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,084
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,084 |
Quote:
If we trade Edwards I will be very disappointed.
As always, trading a guy creates a hole,, if they fill that hole with something of similar or better skills and value, I will never have a problem with it.
Especiallly if they use what they get in return to build on the foundation of the team. Get some pieces that will be here for the next 10 years and be productive for them. Kinda like the Joe Thomas of LB's or another Oline guy for the other side of the line or DE's that play tough along side Rogers. maybe the next big name RB....
Point is, BE, while talented, has stone hands. he's made DA look worse than he is and he'll do the same for any QB that sits back there.
So while I'd be like you, disappointed, I'd make a move in a heartbeat if I thought it allowed me to improve the team in other areas and not hurt the receiver position.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
Quote:
Quote:
If we trade Edwards I will be very disappointed.
Quote:
As always, trading a guy creates a hole,, if they fill that hole with something of similar or better skills and value, I will never have a problem with it. Especiallly if they use what they get in return to build on the foundation of the team.
Ah, if only it were that simple. People keep saying this like it's as simple as getting thirsty, then driving down to the convenience store and picking up a Coke. Have a need, problem solved. It's not that simple. We can keep Edwards and still build foundation pieces to this team. We are still most likely going to trade DA who we absolutely do not need. We already got an additional pick for KII. We don't need to trade BE to build up the team.
Quote:
Point is, BE, while talented, has stone hands. he's made DA look worse than he is and he'll do the same for any QB that sits back there.
The guy had a horrendous year, no sugarcoating it. But all hope is not lost for him. He can be a game changer, and you don't trade those away, IMO.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
"As always, trading a guy creates a hole"
Waiting for the next thread to start as I missed 8 pages...lol 
But when all is said and done the hole that this creates is we need to fill the void of 11 career TDs. 
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
I agree, but there are no FAs available who will improve our WR corps if we get rid of BE, and I don't want to pin my hopes on an unproven rook, no matter what he did in college. We need to win this year, not wait until four years from now. If we sign Housh then BE can go. Short of that, he has to stay.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
|
|
Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
Adam, a GM and HC can't think that way when their team is where we are. If we were on the doorstep so to speak, I would agree with you. However, if BE isn't going to re-sign, it's better to take the hit this year and get something for him instead of nothing. We aren't on the verge of getting to the Super Bowl this year so getting no return on BE isn't the smart move for the team overall. It might help this year, but are we really expecting a strong playoff run this year? No, so you have to weigh that into the decision.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 259
2nd String
|
|
2nd String
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 259 |
If we could trade Edwards for a mid first round pick and a conditional pick next year he would be gone in a heartbeat.
He is not going to resign with the Browns anyway, so get what you can for him and move on.
The Browns are not going to the Super Bowl anyway, so build the team.
JMO though
Hope springs eternal in the heart of a true Browns fan. GO BROWNS!!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 344
2nd String
|
|
2nd String
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 344 |
Quote:
If we got a 2nd and anything.. I'd take it and run.... and I'll wish him very well...
We are in agreement here that a 2nd and 5th or 3rd or whatever is excellent compensation. We are guaranteed a good player. I just want to see what they do with it. A player like TJ "Who's Your Momma" opposite of Braylon would be awesome. IMHO I wish KW2 well in Tampa (at least he is in the NFC) LOL JMHO Go Brownies!!!!
Who Let Da Dawgs Out? Woof, Woof, Woof!!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,084
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,084 |
Quote:
Ah, if only it were that simple. People keep saying this like it's as simple as getting thirsty, then driving down to the convenience store and picking up a Coke.
I don't think it's simple for you and me Rish,,,, in fact for you and me, it would probably be down right daunting.
For the experienced NFL Coaches and GM's, the task is a little easier.. They should, by all rights, know more about what they are looking for and where to find it that you and I.
Still, your right, it's not as simple as going to the corner store and getting a bottle of coke.
Quote:
The guy had a horrendous year, no sugarcoating it. But all hope is not lost for him. He can be a game changer, and you don't trade those away, IMO.
For where he was drafted, his rookie season wasn't exactly a knock out,,, I'll give him a pass on his second year because I really can't believe he was 100% after that injury.
His third year was pretty good, but still dropped a lot... But I'd take that production from any receiver and be thrilled... every single time... I think most of us would.
But last year, like you said, he was horrendous. Just awful.
During his Pro Bowl year, he was quiet off the field,, very team friendly, I guess you could call him the Good BE..
During the bad years prior to his probowl year and this past year, he was his typical loudmouth self.
So, besides having a BAD BE side, he's also gonna want a big contract. not that he deserves it at this point.. (granted he may earn one next season, it's possible). and unless I miss my guess, we're gonna have hell to pay to resign him.
Now I'm not saying I want him gone.. I think he's very talented and if someone can make him work,,,, then he might be worth what we have to pay to keep him.
But going on his history,, if we can get the right thing for him, I'd seriously consider the trade.... i'd have to.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 |
There is not much of a hole to fill with Winslow gone, they already filled it with drafting Rucker last year.
HERE is the thing. I expect Kellen Winslow to do very well in the future as long as he stays in the NFC south. Imagine getting to play Carolina, New Orleans, and Atlanta twice each year, come on an average team and two teams Notorious for no defense. It doesn't matter because if he stayed here he would simply wouldn't have the same success against Pittsburg and Baltimore.
The NFC south, I think the Browns could have won that division each of the last two years
The prognosticators, and blowhards, will throw this in your face when they broadcast Monday night football or whatever in the future... that Winslow will have more success after leaving, but never pay it any attention because he's going against weaker defenses in the NFC south, unless New Orleans, and Atlanta, are suddenly going to become defensive juggernauts? That'll be the day!
Just remember, if he stayed on the Browns, He'd be a wide receiver playing out of position.
another point. This probably makes it a little less likely the Browns are in the market for a free agent with Drew Rosenhouse as his agent.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Quote:
Adam, a GM and HC can't think that way when their team is where we are. If we were on the doorstep so to speak, I would agree with you. However, if BE isn't going to re-sign, it's better to take the hit this year and get something for him instead of nothing. We aren't on the verge of getting to the Super Bowl this year so getting no return on BE isn't the smart move for the team overall. It might help this year, but are we really expecting a strong playoff run this year? No, so you have to weigh that into the decision.
I totally see your perspective, Coach. I suppose I just differ on my opinion of where we are. I consider last year to be somewhat of an aberration in terms of our lousy play. We saw what the team is capable of in games such as the MNF game against the Giants. In fact, we were two defensive meltdowns away from being a .500 team ten games into the season, with Buffalo and Houston as the next two games on the schedule. We also held the Colts to three offensive points while we were in pretty much total disarray. It just seemed like the ball never bounced our way, so to speak. I also think Braylon's lousy season was the exception, not the rule.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if we're as far off as you believe we are then yeah, maybe we should look elsewhere. But if we're really not as far off as last season might've indicated that we were, then maybe we should keep him around.
JMHO
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 93
Practice Squad
|
|
Practice Squad
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 93 |
Quote:
Adam, a GM and HC can't think that way when their team is where we are. If we were on the doorstep so to speak, I would agree with you. However, if BE isn't going to re-sign, it's better to take the hit this year and get something for him instead of nothing. We aren't on the verge of getting to the Super Bowl this year so getting no return on BE isn't the smart move for the team overall. It might help this year, but are we really expecting a strong playoff run this year? No, so you have to weigh that into the decision.
Maybe I missed something but I have not seen anything stating BE WILL NOT RESIGN with the browns.Now if at some point he makes it known that he does not want to be hear after this yr then yes trade him but dont do it before he says so. I know he said stuff about not wanting to be here during the season but I think he was frustrated with the season he was having.
Since this is his contract yr they will probably start talking to him soon about a new conrtact, if they still want him, thats when they will find out if he wants to be here or not.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
Quote:
The guy had a horrendous year, no sugarcoating it. But all hope is not lost for him. He can be a game changer, and you don't trade those away, IMO.
He CAN be (a game changer). But really, he's had 1 really good year and 1 really bad year. So how do we know which year was the the one with the real Braylon? I certainly don't know. I wish I did.
Frankly, if we could do a trade that netted us someone like Anquan Boldin for Braylon I'd do it in a heartbeat. I doubt it happens but a guy can dream.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Quote:
He can be a game changer...
If dropping balls on key downs is considered game changing, then yes, of course you are correct. His ineptitude and his next contract are two things we should avoid if at all possible. Trade him now, take the draft picks, I truly believe we'd be a better team for it.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 93
Practice Squad
|
|
Practice Squad
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 93 |
Quote:
Quote:
He can be a game changer...
If dropping balls on key downs is considered game changing, then yes, of course you are correct. His ineptitude and his next contract are two things we should avoid if at all possible. Trade him now, take the draft picks, I truly believe we'd be a better team for it.
So his bad year is enough to totally ignore is GREAT yr? C'mon he had one of the best years EVER for a browns reciever. Wow you guys must have a short memory.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,115
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,115 |
Gee, do I see a message here? Be careful what you wish (out loud) for, because you might just get it. Sends a message loud and clear from the Manny: Come to play and take care of business. I was surprised, but apparently we are going for picks and strip mining some of the current roster. This just got more interesting to me. I wish him well; he is a warrior, but let it out on the field the right way. Wish him success. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
Quote:
Quote:
He can be a game changer...
If dropping balls on key downs is considered game changing, then yes, of course you are correct. His ineptitude and his next contract are two things we should avoid if at all possible. Trade him now, take the draft picks, I truly believe we'd be a better team for it.
I believe this is a perfect example of serious shortsightedness. You have to look beyond what your eyes are seeing. When is the last time we had a guy who could stretch the field like BE? Whether the guy catches them or not, that has to be honored. When was the last time we had a red zone threat with the jumping ability in the same ballpark as L.Fitz? He has proven time and time again that he can get open, and he's decent with the yards after catch.
You don't part with a talent like that. You work with him. You convince him that Cleveland is the place for him and you coach his arse up. You get him to focus on catching the ball.
I really believe all the people that want him gone are going to be sorry and singing a very different tune when we have absolutely no passing game next year. The only way parting with Edwards is a good idea is if we are getting Boldin somehow ... that's the only way.
I'm amazed at how people are so willing to part with guys that actually have legitimate talent after years of being without any talent. Bye bye Winslow, bye bye Edwards, bye bye Rogers. That is a sure fire way to make sure we aren't any good for a long time.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
Boys and Girls..when I told U guys pre-draft that Phil was after Rucker..it was plain why he selected a clone of KW 2...and he's very similar to him..not the great hands but he's weapon nontheless..and I think he'll be able to fill in if given the chance..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Quote:
You have to look beyond what your eyes are seeing.
Dude. Really? This is what you're going with?
Quote:
When was the last time we had a red zone threat with the jumping ability in the same ballpark as L.Fitz?
You're going to compare his jumping ability with Fitz but ignore his catching ability?
All the leaping, separation and field stretching ability in the world means nothing if he can't catch. And you want us to sign him to a huge contract? I'm sorry, Rish. No way. Because don't kid yourself, the next contract will be a fat one. Frankly, he's not worth it. Coach him up? He was a #1 pick and he's now entering his fifth year. Time to cut our losses. I won't regret a thing unless we don't get draft picks.
Winslow, seeking a big contract with diminishing ability and serious heath issues, in addition to being detrimental in terms of costing us penalties and making us one dimensional when he's on the field. Goodbye, no regrets.
Edwards, led the league in drops, mentally unfocused on the field, thinks he's a star though hasn't shown the ability, will want a fat contract, cost us the season with his early poor performance, causing a cascade of other problems last year. Hope to see him go, no regrets.
Rogers, awesome ability but willing to use an imagined slight to position himself for $100M payday. Has said he doesn't want to be here. Don't want to lose him, but we'll either lose him physically or mentally, in either case he'll be useless. If there's a way to capitalize on his ability and possible demand in the marketplace, I say exploit it before it's too late. Only regret is that he turned out to be selfish and dismissive of the team that took a shot on him when league perceptions was so negative.
If the new regime intends to install a team first attitude, then here are three moves they must make. (Assuming Rogers can't be turned around) If you don't see that, then it is you who is suffering from serious shortsightedness. JMHO
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Quote:
So his bad year is enough to totally ignore is GREAT yr? C'mon he had one of the best years EVER for a browns reciever. Wow you guys must have a short memory.
Do you mean his one great year out of four? His one year out of four where he had more than 6 TDs and a 1000 yards. Apparently your memory is so short it only goes back two years. I may be wrong here, but I think he may have led the league in drops in '07 too. He did have a great year, but he was our only receiving weapon, in a season where we ran a vertical attack with an extremely soft schedule. So, what exactly is it that makes him so great again?
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,991
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,991 |
j/c
Considering this trade, I think we got a damn good deal.
Chiefs | Cassel and Vrabel acquired for second-round pick
Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:14:12 -0800
The Kansas City Chiefs have announced they have traded a second-round pick (No. 34 overall) in the 2009 NFL Draft to the New England Patriots for QB Matt Cassel and LB Mike Vrabel. The deal is contingent on both players passing a physical and reporting.
So, KC got a QB that showed a lot of promise, and a LB that is toward the end of his career but still has leadership qualities and good skills. We got a 2nd and a 5th next year for a busted up but still good TE. Good trade.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,465
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,465 |
Quote:
I find it really interesting to watch this go down.
Winslow was going to be the GUY when the Browns drafted him....everyone on the board was seeing GREATNESS in the guy
Yet coming out of school....the knock on KWII was he was selfish (Im a soldier) that he ran bad routes, and everyone knew he did not block well...he was a WR in a TE body.
Now 5 years later its
Get him out of here...he is selfish...runs bad routes...and cant block.
Ill be honest..I really felt the Browns were taking Ben at pick 6
HACK
Never heard that much of Winslow running bad routes and bad blocking in college. During the draft, which was before his knee injuries, they showed highlights of how good of a blocker he was in college. And not the same blocking highlights of college o-lineman that they show of them holding onto a pass rushers jersey. On special teams, he was also a key blocker for the return men. I know thats 2 differant styles of blocking, but before his knee injuries, he could do soooo much more. Yes, even blocking on the line. He was the last guy back on punt returns, in front of the return man and punished the first would be tackler down the field. Most of the people say that Winslow couldnt block were Ohio St./Browns fans that didnt like the pick because of his outspoken nature, wanted any o-line help available, and were looking for any negative. Some admitted to not even watching him play too much in college. Just the in BCS Title game.
You really thought the Browns were even considering a QB with that pick? Everyone that was paying attention knew that Butch Davis was trying to win right now. Not draft a QB and develop him for down the road. He just signed Jeff Garcia and Tim Couch was released after rejecting a paycut that would have cut his salary by more than half. I also read in another post that everyone knew Davis wanted Winslow. Even though nobody believed anything Davis (Butchspeak) said, it was widely known that there were 3 options that Butch wanted - Gallery (Oakland at pick 2), Winslow, and Sean Taylor Washington at pick 4). Picking a QB with the 6th pick was not an option for Davis at the time. He just went thru the teams selection a franchise QB with a high pick and didnt want to start over. He wanted a player who would start from day 1 and thought would help the Browns win now. He wasnt looking down the road. It was going into the 2nd season after his last playoff apperance. That was the year Davis realized that he was no match in the NFL and bolted. His young talent evaluation and great specail teams coaching wasnt good enough to overcome his bad final roster decisions from FA and the draft. Davis needed a GM to make roster decisions for him, not a right hand man like the guy he brought with him from Miami.
As of now, I cant say if this was a good decision for the Browns or a bad one. I dont see how anyone can. I do think its a good one for the Bucs. They are a team that was on the verge of making the playoffs but collapsed. They have a very good young o-line and some playmakers that could also make the game easier for Winslow. He wont be asked to help block as much in Tampa. I know its a lot of attitude, but I always wanted to see Bryant, Edwards and Winslow on the field together. A threesome that would have made Tim Couch look good. Injuries and the teams reluctancy to offer Bryant a contract extension (Savages, Crennels, or both?) due to his party habits, didnt let that happen in Cleveland. Now a more matured Bryant and Winslow get to team up together in Tampa.
Winslow was my favorite player on the team. On bad knees, he was still the teams best playmaker. He had consistant hands and a ton of heart. That obviosly got the defenses attention and opened up the game for other players and making it easier for them. Edwards, Heidon (in 2 TE sets), the RB out of the backfield, and JJ got alot of single coverage with Winslow on the field. If they didnt, a slower LB or a smaller overmatched safety would have to cover Winslow by himself. His presence also made it easier for unpressured QBs to run the ball. In Winslows rookie year and only game he played was against Baltimore. Ray lewis was giving the media some locker room buletin material and saying that Winslow was going to get a lot of his attention. On a playaction roll out in the red zone by Jeff Garcia, he rolled to the right where KW was the only Brown on that of the field and being coverd by three Ravens. Garcia could have walked the ball in with three guys in the back of the endzone on Winslow and the rest of the defense bitting on the playfake. It was the only time the Browns won their season opener. DA also had a few good runs.
Now that I sit back and think about it, it could be better for the Browns in the long run. Winslow didnt like his contract after his Pro Bowl season. Even though it was a contract he signed after Savage let him keep his money but add a year to it to recoup a year of his lost services from the bike crash. But the Browns are not deep at the TE position now. It was once known as one of the teams most formible unit from top to bottom. Now they dont have Winslow- the top playmaker; Heidon- who has had a bad back for a couple seasons now and its not getting better; Rucker- dont know if he is much of a blocker but is supposed to have Winslow like athletic qualities as a pass catcher down the field; and Dinkens- a good specail teamer, a good blocker, did well of the few oppurtunities when thrown to, but is now a FA. It was good to get any compensation for him while they can. I never believed that Winslow would have stayed in Cleveland anyways when his contract was up. He was upset that Washington didnt draft him at 4. He is a fair weather guy. Grew up in Cali and went to college in Florida. Hes on the downside of his career and a low hit away from being on IR. We wont know if the trade was good for the Browns until we see what the team does with the draft picks and how those picks turn out. It could very well put this new regime on the right track if the guy they draft gives the Browns 4 solid years. Because even though Winslow was very very good, he wasnt going to give this team 4 more solid years. Now they can draft someone who will come at a smaller cost and quite possibley a Pro Bowler. Maybe even 2. At least two guys that they can mold into a new system. I guess we wont know if the new regime made a good trade until we see if the extra picks become players that can even crack the starting lineup or not even make the roster. If Winslow has success in Tampa, that doesnt mean it was a bad trade for the Browns. Especially if they can find a good LB, a solid o-lineman or help in the secondary, and possibley two of those things. Even if they dont have playmakers at the TE psoition, if they get some consistancy minus the boneheaded penalties, they will be alright.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577 |
Looks like Bob Hunter is blogging again bout the Browns. web page Winslow trade shows signs of hope for Browns Yesterday was an important day for the Cleveland Browns and their fans. For the first time since new coach Eric Mangini and new general manager George Kokinis took over, they actually started cleaning up the mess rather than contributing to it. Ever since Browns owner Randy Lerner cleaned house at the conclusion of a 4-12 season and hired former Jets coach Mangini and his pal Kokinis as GM, the stories out of Berea have mostly negative, historic murals being taken down, players complaining about being snubbed and longtime employees decrying the miserable working conditions under the new guys. It seemed like the new regime was determined to bring more chaos to the chaos, like a guy who returns to a house disheveled by a minor earthquake and empties a few more cabinets and knocks a few more pictures off the walls. And as you watch it all happen, you keep asking: Is this really the way to make things better? The trade of team diva Kellen Winslow Jr. to Tampa Bay for two draft picks finally showed that Mangini and Kokinis have some sense. One Cleveland columnist referred to Browns’ trade of tight end Kellen Winslow’s trade to Tampa Bay as a “bold” move. I would call it merely “logical.” Even more than the tight end’s injury issues – he has played in 44 games as a Brown and missed 36 -- Winslow's off the field issues made him a poster boy for a team in disarray. It’s the kind of stuff you can put up when the team is winning and he is critical to its success and you lose patience with when he is only making it more difficult to get things straightened out. When Winslow arrived in Cleveland, he was a remarkable talent, a guy who really might have revolutionized the tight end position. But he broke his leg in his second NFL game, violated his contract by riding a motorcycle and was injured again, had four knee surgeries and eventually suffered those straph infections that became such a contentious issue between himself and Browns management. There were flashed of brilliances interspersed with all this trouble, but the package the Browns were left with was a hot-headed, self-centered guy who still has great hands but not as much speed, a guy prone to obvious pass interference penalties, a guy who is only a so-so blocker who wants to renegotiate a contract that was to pay him $4 million each of the next two years. Winslow can still be a good player, but it’s better than he do it – or not do it – some place else. Healthy or not, he was a distraction the new regime didn’t need. So the Browns get a second round draft pick this year and a fifth rounder in 2010, not exactly the moon for a guy who once seemed destined to be one of the game’s biggest stars, but a sign that this beleaguered team is finally heading in the right direction. The less the new Browns look the like the old Browns the better. Posted by Bob Hunter on February 28, 2009 8:53 AM | Permalink
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 716
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 716 |
Quote:
Ok, Hack...I know where you're coming from here...but I'm taking Jules' *gasp* side on this.
You sound like ImpactPlaya...
Sounds like rubbing salt in the wound, not gonna lie.
and I'm sure because "Ammo said that" it's gonna be frowned upon, I don't care...I've read enough potshots about my team the past few weeks and I've had enough.
Some of you guys are getting gun shy....I said nothing....I passed along information.
LINK TO MESSAGE BOARD REMOVED
This is not where I read it..just the first thing that popped up on google when I went looking for it.
I passed on info....I did not editorialize either positive or negative.
HACK
Dude, you sound like Hannity.
Passing on info without editorializing would read as such:
"Clay Matthews' father has said he wants his son to play in New England.
::link:"
The word 'daddy' and the condescending question of whether or not we remember #57 gives you away. 
For the record...even if you'd done what I suggested, you'd be flamed for taunting...but you crafted the extra words. And that's cool...we can handle it...but don't cry innocence.
First off...Sorry for posting the link...I just wanted to show this was not something I was making up.
Second...I think some of you are really reaching just to say I am saying something wrong.
I used the word Daddy because I did not want to say Clay Mathew father Clay Mathews said.....Last I checked...it is indeed his daddy....and as for some of you may remember him.....well some of you do remember him...but I personally sat in Cleveland Brown Stadium next to 3 guys in their early 20's who did not know who he was....so some of you remember him...and some of you probably do not....thats not a knock...its a fact.
If calling Clay Mathews father " Daddy" and saying you might remember him is smack....its a good thing I stay out of the smack shack...because I am not very good at it........Here is some more of that smack....You QB wears an orange helmet ...TAKE THAT!
HACK
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/SteelHack/hackfun.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
|
|
Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
Quote:
Quote:
Adam, a GM and HC can't think that way when their team is where we are. If we were on the doorstep so to speak, I would agree with you. However, if BE isn't going to re-sign, it's better to take the hit this year and get something for him instead of nothing. We aren't on the verge of getting to the Super Bowl this year so getting no return on BE isn't the smart move for the team overall. It might help this year, but are we really expecting a strong playoff run this year? No, so you have to weigh that into the decision.
Maybe I missed something but I have not seen anything stating BE WILL NOT RESIGN with the browns.Now if at some point he makes it known that he does not want to be hear after this yr then yes trade him but dont do it before he says so. I know he said stuff about not wanting to be here during the season but I think he was frustrated with the season he was having.
Since this is his contract yr they will probably start talking to him soon about a new conrtact, if they still want him, thats when they will find out if he wants to be here or not.
You may have missed severeal things that's happened (not sarcasm there, just saying). BE has been treated terribly by some fans. His house has been trashed, his family harassed and threatened. BE has made it clear to some on the team that he is out of here as soon as he can be. There would have to be some serious changes in BE's life in Cleveland before he would even consider talking to the FO let alone signing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 716
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 716 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Adam, a GM and HC can't think that way when their team is where we are. If we were on the doorstep so to speak, I would agree with you. However, if BE isn't going to re-sign, it's better to take the hit this year and get something for him instead of nothing. We aren't on the verge of getting to the Super Bowl this year so getting no return on BE isn't the smart move for the team overall. It might help this year, but are we really expecting a strong playoff run this year? No, so you have to weigh that into the decision.
Maybe I missed something but I have not seen anything stating BE WILL NOT RESIGN with the browns.Now if at some point he makes it known that he does not want to be hear after this yr then yes trade him but dont do it before he says so. I know he said stuff about not wanting to be here during the season but I think he was frustrated with the season he was having.
Since this is his contract yr they will probably start talking to him soon about a new conrtact, if they still want him, thats when they will find out if he wants to be here or not.
You may have missed severeal things that's happened (not sarcasm there, just saying). BE has been treated terribly by some fans. His house has been trashed, his family harassed and threatened. BE has made it clear to some on the team that he is out of here as soon as he can be. There would have to be some serious changes in BE's life in Cleveland before he would even consider talking to the FO let alone signing.
Wow...I think I remember hearing about some vandalism...but I don't remember hearing about the other stuff.....as they say...it only takes a few to ruin it for the many.
HACK
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 509
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 509 |
Quote:
You may have missed severeal things that's happened (not sarcasm there, just saying). BE has been treated terribly by some fans. His house has been trashed, his family harassed and threatened. BE has made it clear to some on the team that he is out of here as soon as he can be. There would have to be some serious changes in BE's life in Cleveland before he would even consider talking to the FO let alone signing.
Wow. I haven't heard about that stuff, but if it's true, and since it's coming from CoachB I don't doubt that it is, I can't really blame BE for wanting out.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Coach, when you say "serious changes" in his life, do you mean changes that need to be made by him, or changes that need to be made by fans and/or the organization?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
Cal, you make a strong argument. But my point is that not everything is a lost cause just because it isn't going according to plan. The guy sucked last year because he couldn't hold onto the ball. Are you saying get rid of every guy who has a bad year? I think your argument about 1 good year out of 4 is weak. He had a fairly decent rookie year and was really showing signs before getting hurt. I can't imagine getting more out of him that year than we did. I couldn't wait to see him play the following season. Year 2 was fresh off the ACL with a terrible QB and a terrible OL. Hard to say he sucked, IMO. Year 3 blew up and became the player many - and not just in Browns Nation - thought he'd become. I believe that is the real BE. He still had drops, and I was very vocal about that at the time even during Year 3, but he flashed some serious talent. Year 4 he flat out sucked arse. No arguments there. But I don't know what else you wanted from the guy Years 1 and 2. Based on CoachB's post, it sounds like there are extenuating circumstances outside of football that are pretty much driving BE out of town so it all may be a moot point. (On a side note, I think any fan that trashes the house of pro player of any sport for any reason is flat out roody pooh candy arse piece of no good nothing ... in a lot of ways I don't blame BE for wanting out because of that). But if we get rid of Edwards and Rogers, our offense and defense are going to suck even worse. And you won't be allowed to complain. 
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Braylon Edwards led the league in drops in 2008 and was even a frontrunner for that title in 2007...in both those seasons he was pretty much among the worst in looks-to-catches percentage in the league (barely over 50% in 2007, around 50% his first 2 years, which is horrible....UNDER 40% in 2008 which is beyond pathetic)
It´s beyond me how anyone considers him an elite nfl WR, he´s simply NOT (elite or good WR have easily over 60%+ in that stat, look it up...Boldin has 71% over last 2 seasons, )....he´s NOT what we need....trade him if you get offered a top 20-60 pick, hang on to him for another year if not
He won´t win us anything, he´s a follower at best...not a leader or difference maker...get rid of him...NOW
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
Quote:
looks-to-catches percentage
How does this stat work? What defines a "look"?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
|
|
Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
I mean changes from those in Cleveland towards BE. No one deserves the things that have happened to him away from the field.
Django, you do realize that T.O. and Moss also have alot of drops every year, right?
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns trade Winslow
|
|
![[Linked Image from s2.excoboard.com]](http://s2.excoboard.com/forums/25521/user/302752/484538.gif)
