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Terry Pluto's Talkin' ... about the Rogers-Mangini tiff by Terry Pluto/Plain Dealer Columnist Saturday February 28, 2009, 11:29 PM About Shaun Rogers and the Browns ... 1. The Browns made progress setting up a meeting between coach Eric Mangini and star defensive lineman Shaun Rogers. The two parties have been communicating, with the help of General Manager George Kokinis and Rogers' agent. Some of the tension has been eased. The plan is for both sides to have a long sit-down meeting soon. 2. The moment Mangini heard Rogers was upset that the two didn't talk at a recent sports banquet, he should have taken time to make a call or send an e-mail / text to Rogers -- just to say that it will be great to get to know each other, watch some film, talk about the team, etc. Mangini now wishes he had done so. 3. According to someone at the banquet, Rogers walked by as Mangini was talking to Tribe manager Eric Wedge. Mangini's back was to Rogers and he didn't see the 360-pounder. Mangini did not intentionally slight Rogers. He was not even aware Rogers was supposed to be at the banquet, as the coach made a brief appearance to hand out an award and then went back to the office, where he was in the midst of assembling his new coaching staff. Thomas Ondrey/The Plain DealerEric Mangini (center right) didn't know that his appearance at the Greater Cleveland Sports Awards banquet on Jan. 21 (with Jim Nantz, center left, and Danny Ferry, rear) would turn into such an important event in the current rift with nose tackle Shaun Rogers. 4. Mangini has been taking an odd stance of not wanting to talk to players, or at least that is the impression being given to some of his key players. Mangini would rather sit down and talk to players at length, but the coach needs to understand that a short call or e-mail is a good way to let the players know he is interested in them. This is the text-message, e-mail generation. 5. Some fans say "Who cares if Mangini stiffed Rogers, my boss doesn't talk to me." Or, "If I made $6 million, my boss can ignore me forever." There is no relation between pro sports and the real world. These are millionaires in a bubble, they have been spoiled their entire professional lives. To them, special treatment is a perk of the job. Also, in real life, rarely does an employee earn more than the boss -- as is often the case in pro sports. 6. Money must be behind some of Rogers' unhappiness, especially as defensive lineman Albert Haynesworth just signed that outrageous 7-year, $100 million contract with Washington. It has $41 million guaranteed, and a staggering $32 million paid in the first 13 months. Rogers would love to hit the open market and try for a contract like that, which is why he would prefer the Browns cut him and pass on his $6 million roster bonus later this month and his salary of $2.4 million in 2009. His $6.9 million in 2010 also is guaranteed, meaning he has $15 million coming the next two seasons. 7. The Browns insist Rogers' agent has not made any demands about being released. That's because his contract runs five more years, and he can't demand anything. But it could have been suggested, because every player and agent would love to get a new contract whenever possible. The Browns insist they have no interest in releasing Rogers. 8. Rogers also wondered why the Browns were hard-balling him about his weight. He was in the 360-pound range all last season -- which is what the team asked. The Browns have since communicated to Rogers that they know he is in decent shape now, and they just want him to stay in condition. 9. No reasonable person can have issues with how Rogers performed last season. He played every game, played with a sore shoulder, a cranky knee and being double- and triple-teamed. The coaches were extremely impressed by Rogers on film. But there are concerns about other defensive linemen, especially as Corey Williams struggled switching from the 4-3 defense in Green Bay to the Browns' 3-4. 10. It's believed the Browns have reached out to Romeo Crennel. Mangini loves the former Browns coach, as does Rogers. He is expected to help with this situation. So is new defensive coordinator Rob Ryan, who is thrilled with the idea of coaching Rogers. Ryan supposedly thinks he can get more out of Kamerion Wimbley, which will be critical to making the 3-4 defense work. 11. The Browns correctly believe the team needs more discipline. They want the players to know coaches are in charge, and they want a more structured approach to workouts, conditioning, etc. They also set a message with the Kellen Winslow deal that they don't want players who have contract issues to become a distraction. 12. Word out of the combine is the Browns do indeed like Wake Forest linebacker Aaron Curry, but that Curry was so impressive on and off the field that he's expected to be gone by the time the Browns pick at No. 5. (Indians/Cavs stuff edited out for posting here) web page
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JMO, but for the Browns to be successful Rogers has to stay and play like last year. It appears that the situation has been exaggerated. Hell, I would sniff Rogers' jockstrap if it would help keep him happy. 
Last edited by Line Judge; 03/01/09 10:31 AM.
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The wounded ego thing does not really play, with me. When did these guys become such a bunch of hothouse orchids? A guy doesn't see you and you choose to be offended? BS. The team paying you millions suggests that you report at a weight that will make you more effective, and you get offended? More BS, I think Rogers could be all-world if he would get down to 330-340. Even at 360, he's a top 5 NT. But it is important that he not enter the "Ted Washington Zone" - 380+. The following was all you really needed to know in Pluto's article (its always about the Benjamins) ... Quote:
6. Money must be behind some of Rogers' unhappiness, especially as defensive lineman Albert Haynesworth just signed that outrageous 7-year, $100 million contract with Washington. It has $41 million guaranteed, and a staggering $32 million paid in the first 13 months. Rogers would love to hit the open market and try for a contract like that ...
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I'm really glad TP can add this kind of insight as to what's happening behind closed doors in Berea these days. Reminds me of the letter that the OBR sent to Randy Lerner a few weeks ago ( obr letter) about how tightening the grip on the dissemination of information to local media outlets will only add to false speculation and the rumor-mongering that takes place on the national level with sites like PFT, etc.. And that seems to be precisely what is happening. Instead of the correct information coming out, only snippets are being leaked and then people are left to fill in the blanks. And lately, there have been some pretty big blanks to fill. So yeah, I'm glad Pluto is able to get SOME information and report it to us so we can know that the sky is not falling in Berea. I can only hope that, as this keeps happening, fans and pundits will be a little slower to jump the gun and make wild assumptions based on very little information.
On another note, I did find it extremely funny that even Adam Schefter had NO IDEA that the K2 trade was going down. Apparently, the lid is on pretty tight in Berea. And while it may suck for us who scavenge the boards for any meaningful morsel or tidbit, especially this time of year, I think it can be beneficial. But hopefully, Mangini and Co. will learn from the Rogers thing that if you're gonna seal the lid, you better make sure it's either air-tight or you have a way of getting the right information to the right people at the right time.
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good article- yes, things are hopefully overblown here. nice to here that Mangini and Rogers are talking. That should fix things.
about the money- it still sounds like he is making a good chunk of change that is guaranteed for the next couple of years. Maybe in a couple of years Rogers can talk about reworking his deal, but not now.
I think Romeo will be an asset for whatever team that can talk him into being a consultant. I hope it is the browns.
I hope that Ryan can salvage something out of Wimbley- he has regressed.
Curry won't be there at 5. Especially not now, after KC got their QB.
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Assuming that Pluto has all this right: Quote:
6. Money must be behind some of Rogers' unhappiness, especially as defensive lineman Albert Haynesworth just signed that outrageous 7-year, $100 million contract with Washington. It has $41 million guaranteed, and a staggering $32 million paid in the first 13 months. Rogers would love to hit the open market and try for a contract like that, which is why he would prefer the Browns cut him and pass on his $6 million roster bonus later this month and his salary of $2.4 million in 2009. His $6.9 million in 2010 also is guaranteed, meaning he has $15 million coming the next two seasons.
If I'm Rogers, I think I'm worth every bit as much as Haynesworth. I'd want a better deal also. If this is really what's behind this rift, then that kinda says more about the man than anything else.
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10. It's believed the Browns have reached out to Romeo Crennel. Mangini loves the former Browns coach, as does Rogers. He is expected to help with this situation. So is new defensive coordinator Rob Ryan, who is thrilled with the idea of coaching Rogers. Ryan supposedly thinks he can get more out of Kamerion Wimbley, which will be critical to making the 3-4 defense work.
Just saw a story somewhere that says that Romeo is recouping from his Hip Replacement but has been offered the DC job in KC as well as the DC job at Notre Dame.... And that he is rejecting anything with the Browns.. I hope he does Mangini this one favor however..
As for Ryan thinking he can find a way to get better use from Wimbley,, nothing would make me happier.. that's just one less hole that needs filled.
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11. The Browns correctly believe the team needs more discipline. They want the players to know coaches are in charge, and they want a more structured approach to workouts, conditioning, etc. They also set a message with the Kellen Winslow deal that they don't want players who have contract issues to become a distraction.
Lots of you guys that have attended TC the last couple of years have been saying how easy they seem to be going on the guys.. Maybe getting tougher on them and showing them who's in charge is a good thing. The way it was done didn't seem to work.
As for the Kellen Winslow comment,, If that's the message they intended to send,, I hope it works....
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Kind of side question for everyone just because I'm curious and have been thinking about this for some time:
Does anyone else find it odd that Mangini is still reaching out to Crennel after learning of the mess he inherited and that they were and still are such good friends since they are such polar opposites? I kind of find this type of human nature stuff fascinating. I mean they obviously have two different philosphies and styles. And in my experience I've found that guys with Mangini's style of personality don't really mesh well with guys like Crennel. Yet the friendship and respect has been built up over such a long period of time that it doensn't really matter.
But I mean we are talking about a complete 180 in terms of attitude and approach ... and yet he's still reaching out to him on matters. I find this odd ... don't really care either way ... but it just seems strange.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I have seen tougher camps ran by middle school coaches compared to what the Browns have been running. Every missed tackle was a reminder of what happens when you dont practice hitting and tackling.
Mangini is infamous for his tough camps and that will be needed with the Browns. If you arent a tough guy, you will not survive a Mangini training camp, thus the departure of K2 who just couldnt practice at that level.
As for Rob Ryan helping Wimbley become a pass rusher, I am sure Buddy can throw some tips his way as well. The Ryans have made careers by maximizing pass rush ability.
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When your Bill Bellicek, you can act like Bill Bellicek.
But when your Eric Mangini, who doesn't have the same resume, and alas the same moxy and credibility as Bellicek, you can't act like him.
Mangini needs to learn. Hopefully, this embarassment will do that. If it doesn't, we're doomed for another five years.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
But when your Eric Mangini, who doesn't have the same resume, and alas the same moxy and credibility as Bellicek, you can't act like him.
What if it's not an act. What if this is really who Mangini is? everything I've read says that's the case.
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I don't see how Mangini would be embarrassed. If I was him I wouldn't be. The guy legitimately doesn't see a player at a function, then said player cops an adolescent attitude and says he doesn't want to play for the guy. To me the embarassment should be with Rogers. What is he 10 yers old?
This IMO is the press making something out of nothing. Rogers is pissed because his cake walk is over and now he has to meet the demands in front of him. Crennel coddled these guys so bad that their work ethic is pitiful. How many times did he let guys rest a days after a loss. To me that is coddling. His team was ill-prepared and soft.
Some posters seem to keep mentioning Mangini's personality as if they talk to him on a daily basis. Even you think he is trying to act like Bellichek. Have you ever considered that maybe that's just the way he is. Maybe Bill liked him because of the similarity to himself. When I hear the guy speak, I genuinely believe that what you see is what he always has been.
I hope he works this team to the bone. I hope that they are all held accountable for the lackluster desire that they are associated with. The way Mangini and Kokinis are handling things in a closed enviroment is promising IMO. I think we finally have people in place that understand how the system works, and I think it is time for the team to learn how to play professional football with desire and disipline.
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The crux of this is that times are different.
This isn't the 60's and 70's where the coach running the team can get away with absolute power and action. Very few coaches in the league can get away with that in today's world. Bellyache is one. Parcells was another. Outside of them, no coach in the NFL today can get away with acting like that.
Keep in mind there's a difference between what's right and what's reality. Reality today is that with the advent and advance of free agency and high profile players, coddling is a necessary evil in the NFL. As a result, guys like Mangini have to earn their ability to be aloof and treat these people like slave-labor. He hasn't, and this is the result.
The miss at the function isn't an issue. It's the rest of it that's got Rogers upset. That isn't to say Rogers is right, because he's always been this way.
Remember, what's right and fair plays no role in the fantasy world that's the NFL. Those are two very seperate worlds.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Outside of them, no coach in the NFL today can get away with acting like that.
Maybe you should add Tom Coughlin to that list.
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Can you find me a link to where Rogers is asking for more $$$$ ?? ... Is there any comment from him or his agent about wanting Haynesworth ( spelling ) money ??? Or is this the media and fans running their mouths ? Not trying to be different , but just can't find anything definitive ! I really am at a loss here about whether you agree with the mans approach to life or how important his pride is .. Who are we to call the man a head case??? Who else on the " D " ( in the 4-12 ) season left it all on the field every week?? You never heard a peep from Rogers all season long .. Yea, Win 2,BE, Smith, others ; but not Rogers .. Straight up ... I would hate to team mates with a whole Bunch of Dawg's on this board.. We also need to give Mangini some more time ... As I have staited before , he was not my choice , but , lets give him and the whole organization the . FA / Draft & some of preseason before we run HIM out of Town 
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Quote:
Maybe you should add Tom Coughlin to that list.
Even he had to let up a little bit before they got on their roll toward the Super Bowl.
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Quote:
As a result, guys like Mangini have to earn their ability to be aloof and treat these people like slave-labor. He hasn't, and this is the result.
Wouldn't you think that working your way to a head coaching position is earning it? You act as if Mangini just walked off the street. He has coached for a while and has been a head coach. The slave labor comment makes no sense to me. Have you been in the Berea facilities and witnessed this?
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This isn't the 60's and 70's where the coach running the team can get away with absolute power and action. Very few coaches in the league can get away with that in today's world
And this is exactly why many teams are yearly disaappointments. Just because that's the way of today, doesn't make it the right way. Too many teams suffer from lack of disipline, the Browns are perfect examples. You have rookies come into camp and watch veterans take a lazy approach and the seed is planted. Bad habits are learned, and the end result reflects it.
To say coddling is necessary is IMO foolish. It many be prevelant, but not necessary. I think that's why when teams look for new coaches the look to guys from the Parcells or Bellichek tree. They see coaches that don't fall into that coddling method, coaches that demand results and are not afraid to call out a player no matter how big his salary is.
Tooo many of these FA players who get the big paydays, believe they are still owed something. As if they are bigger than the team. The lack of respect for coaches is rampant due to the fact that these ego centered players who make more than the coaches feel they are above the coach due to the comparison in their salaries.
IMO Mangini is the coach, he is in charge, and I don't think he owes these players anything, especially since they haven't even played a down for him. You act as if the respect has to be earned by the coach. I believe the players must first gain the respect of the coach. Maybe I'm old fashion, but that's how the pecking order should be.
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# 1 is a sort of backtrack on this not being as previously portrayed by the media.
#2 is the arrogance of the media to state even in their reversal and miss reporting on the events at hand. That Mangini was still "WRONG" 
What I did like to see is that George Kokinis came to us with a very good reputation of "PEOPLE SKILLS" matching him up well with Mangini in that accord. And here he is riding to the rescue and getting this straightened out 
Nice to see Mangini also is not a bold faced liar when he stated that he really didn't even know that Rogers was there at the banquet. Now we learn that Rogers was not on the announced contributors for Mangini to know and the only possibly chance meeting had Mangini on the podium and Rogers walking behind him for all the reporters in the audience to see but no Mangini. Why didn't any of them state this OBVIOUS FACT which yes would have defended Mangini and possibly defused this mess...but it just happened to be the truth!
And then people wonder why I call these guys Bozo's
The only thing I saw maybe as a negative...is I hope this doesn't come over with the players as the team stepping back in their demands for Discipline.
"He was in the 360-pound range all last season -- which is what the team asked. The Browns have since communicated to Rogers that they know he is in decent shape now, and they just want him to stay in condition."
I hope this doesn't send a message of Discipline? Well yes, with exceptions to a few who are better than the team at whole.
But I'm taking it as a Good Bad thing. Good cause it probably was needed to defuse this thing here n now!
Bad cause it could bite them in the ass later??? But I hope not.
JMHO
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Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I think Toad is correct. You just can't get away with being a hardass jerk (HC) in today's NFL. At least not all the time. And not if you really haven't done anything. Quote:
IMO Mangini is the coach, he is in charge, and I don't think he owes these players anything, especially since they haven't even played a down for him.
Of course, the reverse is also true. They were here last year busting their butts and Mangini just walks in and acts like King of the Hill. They, at this point, owe him nothing.
Mangini may be the greatest thing for Cleveland since sliced bread. But I've heard this song 3 times before in the last 10 years. Pardon me if I'm skeptical.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Mangini is trying now to do what his greatest critics...fans...think that he should have done before.
Rogers has 5 YEARS left on his contract...5 YEARS!
I keep wondering how a millionaire football player that is 30 years old and weighs in around 370-400 pounds...can allow himself to be seen as wanting to sit down with a coach and complain that his feelings were hurt by a lack of recognition?????
The weight issue...if Rogers played all of last year at the targeted weight...why does he mind a reminder.
My guess is that "BIG BABY" may be struggling to fit into his crib these days.
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Quote:
Quote:
Outside of them, no coach in the NFL today can get away with acting like that.
Maybe you should add Tom Coughlin to that list.
No, Coughlin had to change his ways because the players almost quit on him. It was noted throughout the media that Coughlin had to back-off the ways he used to do things in order to get the players to respond to him.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Was there a point in there? 'Cause I couldn't really find one. 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Wouldn't you think that working your way to a head coaching position is earning it? You act as if Mangini just walked off the street. He has coached for a while and has been a head coach. The slave labor comment makes no sense to me. Have you been in the Berea facilities and witnessed this?
No, being a head coach hasn't earned you anything in the eyes of today's players.
Even being a head coach "for a while" doesn't entitle you to run things like it's a boot-camp. The only people who can get away with that are the ones who've proven they can win the big game, while also proving that if they don't like a player, they can dump that player, find a replacement, and still win.
If a coach is going to be a football-nazi, he has to have proven he can get away with it in order to........get away with it.  Bellyache and Parcells did it. Mangini and the rest of the head coaches haven't.
Remember, we're talking about that kind of aloof coaching style, which is different than what many guys such as Vermeil have used over the years.
As for the Berea comment, your snideness doesn't lend any credibility to your arguement, nor does it devalue mine.
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And this is exactly why many teams are yearly disaappointments. Just because that's the way of today, doesn't make it the right way. Too many teams suffer from lack of disipline, the Browns are perfect examples.
This isn't about discipline. This is about perceived respect.
Don't mistake the two.
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To say coddling is necessary is IMO foolish.
Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't a part of the NFL today.
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IMO Mangini is the coach, he is in charge, and I don't think he owes these players anything, especially since they haven't even played a down for him. You act as if the respect has to be earned by the coach.
It does, and that's where you don't get it.
In days gone bye, the players had to earn the respect of the coach. In today's world, each side must earn the respect of the other.
Coaches like Bellyache have allready EARNED that respect, which is why they can get away with it. Mangini hasn't earned SQUAT with anyone, so in today's NFL, he can't slight a player just because he's the coach.
That's the difference.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I think Toad is correct. You just can't get away with being a hardass jerk (HC) in today's NFL. At least not all the time. And not if you really haven't done anything.
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IMO Mangini is the coach, he is in charge, and I don't think he owes these players anything, especially since they haven't even played a down for him.
Of course, the reverse is also true. They were here last year busting their butts and Mangini just walks in and acts like King of the Hill. They, at this point, owe him nothing.
Mangini may be the greatest thing for Cleveland since sliced bread. But I've heard this song 3 times before in the last 10 years. Pardon me if I'm skeptical.
By you using the term "hard-assed jerk" immediately shows me your bias. Have you met the guy? Probably not. Using the media to form an opinion on Mangini is foolish. They will always try to belittle a guy who is holding back the info they want. They make a living from "scoops" if a guy never gives them one he tends to be looked at in a bad light by them.
Also you suggesting that I believe Mangini is "the greatest thing for Cleveland since white bread" compounds that feeling. I never suggested it and believe you are going to twist anything I say to fit your bias.
The comment abbout the players "busting their butt" is laughable. By the way Mangini IS the king of the hill, and if they feel they owe him nothing to be on this team, then they should go. I can't understand the thinking that a new coach has to bow to the players, mutual respect I'll give you, but him having to earn it IMO is rubbish...he's the coach.
Being skeptical is one thing, but holding a negative attitude with no real evidence is another. To me you don't like Mangini and you will never like him. So in your world he will never be on the right side. I may be wrong, but your bias is evident.
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MY bias is evident? You do realize that others on here are allowed to post an opinion that is not in direct line with yours, right? I do not dislike Mangini. I watched his first press conference and while I was not overly impressed I thought he might be able to do a good job here. It's certainly set up for him to do so. But to be truthful he is not the guy I would have hired were I the owner. I used the term hard-assed jerk because that is the way I believe he is coming off to the players. Do I think he is a jerk? No. Do I think the hard-ass routine is gonna work? It might for a while but he's got to know when to use it. Apparently he hasn't figured that out yet. Hopefully, he will. I never said you thought he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Read it again. See. I did not say that. As far as twisting what you say if quoting you then replying to it is twisting then, gosh, call me Chubby Checkers......  As far as the players busting their butts, personally I think Rogers did. And this thread is about Rogers (mainly). And if you don't think that HE busted his hump I'd suggest you rewatch some of the games. Lastly, I always laugh when someone tells me I have a negative attitude. Because what that means is I don't think like you. Or agree with something you've said. I can live with that. I can also live with Mangini. If he wins. Because after 10 years of crappy coaching and bad playing I'm not gonna get all rah-rah about a coach or a player until they start producing. Until then they're just another guy in Berea.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Legend
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"Even being a head coach "for a while" doesn't entitle you to run things like it's a boot-camp. "
You should actually study the guy and know of what you speak of before claiming it so. So all I got out of this is you don't like the hire and putting your agenda into it 
Cause you able to educate yourself of the facts but either didn't do so for some reason or you just would rather portray him for some BOOT CAMP infractions that he did indeed make in the past. But he changed that in 2008. Why do you refuse to look at 2008 and the change/growth of Mangini regarding his CAMP WORK HABITS.
???
"If a coach is going to be a football-nazi"
More Bias crapola 
"which is different than what many guys such as Vermeil have used over the years."
Vermeil was far from undisciplined...he did develop relationships with his players...he was pretty unique in that way. I fail to see this as the NORM???
"This isn't about discipline. This is about perceived respect.
Don't mistake the two."
I'm sorry you must think that you have distinguished this as a given perception. But again you are presenting your "AGENDA BASED OPINION" as Fact
"Coaches like Bellyache have allready EARNED that respect, which is why they can get away with it."
I'm sorry but you wouldn't be actually saying that he became a disciplinarian ONLY AFTER HE HAD SUCCESS???
Actually I see a lot of similarities. Belicheck actually had to change and grow into what he is today.
I've seen the change and growth by Mangini. He's a much better coach and much better with his player/coach relationship then you are incorrectly spewing here in your obvious dislikes for him.
Now go search the internet for some BS crapola that you can twist and turn to try to shape it to your Agenda
I ain't buying. I saw...not heard, not read...I saw his camps and I saw him grow and change!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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No, being a head coach hasn't earned you anything in the eyes of today's players.
That's my point "today's player". It's a sad situation when a coach isn't respected. And it is part of todays player, that's why you see "pros" who play the game with no fundamentals. The coach must be respected immediately, and the players must earn their respect. Maybe that's not how it is, but it is how it should be.
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Even being a head coach "for a while" doesn't entitle you to run things like it's a boot-camp.
Why? If that's your style you do it. You mean if a new coach comes in he has to run practice the way the players feel comfortable? That's BS. If you have ever coached, I have, at any level, I don't think you would believe that.
You have to make the players respect you as the guy in charge, if you don't your results will be pitiful. The coach is the guy in control, the players, whether they like or not are the ones controlled. That's just the way it works.
The "snideness" comes from you using terms like "nazi" and "slave labor". You have no basis to use these terms. Until he actually takes the team to the field and the public sees these traits, I believe they are unfair to use.
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This isn't about discipline. This is about perceived respect.
Don't mistake the two.
The lack of disipline is a result of a lack of respect. RAC was proven as a coach, this team did not respect that and it was clear due to the lack of disipline it showed.
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Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't a part of the NFL today.
I didn't say it didn't exist. I said "IMO" it is foolish.
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days gone bye, the players had to earn the respect of the coach. In today's world, each side must earn the respect of the other.
Coaches like Bellyache have allready EARNED that respect, which is why they can get away with it. Mangini hasn't earned SQUAT with anyone, so in today's NFL, he can't slight a player just because he's the coach.
That's the difference.
I agree with the equal respect, but you seem to imply that Mangini was disrespectful for unintentionally not recognizing Rogers, but Rogers was not disrespectful by crying to the media. That's "slighting" a player.
I disagree with Mangini not earning "squat". He has earned two head coaching positions. Before that he worked his way from ballboy thru the system. To me that is earning something.
So should the Steelers players have respected Tomlin last year? How about the Dolphins and their new coach?
We might always disagree, but if the players don't respect the coach from day one, you got problems. Players must earn the respect of the coach.
Respect off the field is not the same as on the field. They are just men off the field. In that context, Rogers was immature in his actions.
Bellichek never changed from the "jerk" he was when he was here. I don't expect Mangini to either. How many coaches have you had that you didn't like? I had many, but I still respected them as the guy in charge. Many of them in turn gave me the respect I earned for working hard. I was never a real good player, but I was always an important part of the team because of my work ethic. Then and only then did I get the respect from the coach. I believe that's how it should be.
#gmstrong
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You should actually study the guy and know of what you speak of before claiming it so. So all I got out of this is you don't like the hire and putting your agenda into it
I was for the hire when it was made, so your interpretation is wrong.
The flow of the conversation went beyond Mangini, so, again, you've gone off track and are wrong in your assumption.
That's 0-for-2 and I haven't even read the rest yet *L* 
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Cause you able to educate yourself of the facts but either didn't do so for some reason or you just would rather portray him for some BOOT CAMP infractions that he did indeed make in the past. But he changed that in 2008. Why do you refuse to look at 2008 and the change/growth of Mangini regarding his CAMP WORK HABITS.
You're going down a path different from mine. I'll chalk it up to "lost in translation" and leave it at that.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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"I was for the hire when it was made, so your interpretation is wrong."
Sorry my bad...you did fool me...after all so much has happened since then 
"The flow of the conversation went beyond Mangini"
I did think about that as I squinted my EYE and said to myself...Self maybe there is somethings going on that I missed between two posters... 
All I can tell you Toad...Mangini was considered a Boot Camp mentality and he almost got to the point of losing the team...(their one losing season).
The players ready to jump ship...even if they didn't show any love to Mangini they all to a man stated that he changed and for the better. Camps were still tough but they were actually fun and they were looking forward to it rather than regretting it.
J an FYI.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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That's my point "today's player". It's a sad situation when a coach isn't respected. And it is part of todays player, that's why you see "pros" who play the game with no fundamentals. The coach must be respected immediately, and the players must earn their respect. Maybe that's not how it is, but it is how it should be.
I said the exact same thing earlier.
Again, don't mistake reality with right and wrong, fair or unfair, just or unjust. Reality doesn't play by those rules, and today's NFL doesn't either.
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Even being a head coach "for a while" doesn't entitle you to run things like it's a boot-camp.
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Why? If that's your style you do it. You mean if a new coach comes in he has to run practice the way the players feel comfortable? That's BS. If you have ever coached, I have, at any level, I don't think you would believe that.
Both you and Eo took that too literally.
If we're going to go by the literal word, then show me where I said Mangini was a Nazi, or that he runs his camps like a boot-camp
So, now that I've established it's simply "lost in translation" we can get back to the the topic between us which is about whether or not respect is earned or if it should be given.
I didn't say that 'Gini should run things however players want. I DID say that coddling is part of today's NFL, and in the case of someone like Rogers, who felt slighted, it's better in today's world to reach out to that player instead of ignoring it.
Is that fair? Is it right? Such terms play no role here. It's not a matter of right and wrong, fair or unfair. It's simply a matter of how things work, and how any given situation needs to be handled in order to acquire the desired result. In the case of Rogers, 'Gini shouldn't have to reach out to him, but he does. He didn't, and this is the end result. Is it right? Is it fair? No, but it's reality, and reality is all that counts.
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The lack of disipline is a result of a lack of respect. RAC was proven as a coach, this team did not respect that and it was clear due to the lack of disipline it showed.
Not so.
RAC never demanded discipline. That was his choice. It failed, and as a result, he failed as a head coach. That had nothing to do with respect, because they respected the Hell out of RAC. What they didn't do was fear him, and THAT was his mistake. He didn't put his foot on Winslow or Edwards. That lack of discipline led to a lack of discipline, not a lack of respect.
Simply put, RAC didn't discipline players well enough. That had nothing to do with respect.
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I agree with the equal respect, but you seem to imply that Mangini was disrespectful for unintentionally not recognizing Rogers, but Rogers was not disrespectful by crying to the media. That's "slighting" a player.
I noted that what happened at the dinner played no role in this. I also spoke naught regarding Rogers role in the media. Neither item plays a role in my part of this discussion. The only thing I'm stating is that 'Gini should have called Rogers to mend the fences, regardless of whether or not, in a perfect world, he should have to do it because of concepts such as fair/unfair or right/wrong. 20 years ago he wouldn't have had to. Today, he does.
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I disagree with Mangini not earning "squat". He has earned two head coaching positions. Before that he worked his way from ballboy thru the system. To me that is earning something.
But not to the players, and only the players count. Not you and I
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So should the Steelers players have respected Tomlin last year? How about the Dolphins and their new coach?
Apples and oranges. The circumstances that caused the situation with Brown and 'Gini aren't applicable to the Steelers and the Dolphins. Different players, different coaches, different circumstances.
Again, you're speaking of what's right and wrong, just and unjust, fair and unfair. I'm speaking of the reality of today's NFL, which are different concepts. 'Gini should have called Rogers. He didn't. The result is that a problem-child of a player got upset and has turned this into a circus. Is it right Rogers did that? Is it fair? No. But those concepts play no role in how 'Gini should have acted.
Two. Different. Concepts.
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Bellichek never changed from the "jerk" he was when he was here. I don't expect Mangini to either.
Then like Bellyache, Mangini better win quick, because the players will quit on him very quickly if he doesn't. Then he'll be out of a job, and we'll be back to square one.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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When your Bill Bellicek, you can act like Bill Bellicek.
Belichick was Belichick before he was Belichik. He had to grow into his position, especially when dealing with the media, but he's still not a warm fuzzy guy. What he is is a team first concept coach, not a player coddler. That is exactly what we need, and from all appearances, what Mangini is intent on installing. Mangini is learning, that much is clear, it's apparent that he took a lesson from BB's book on media relations as well. If he instills a winning tradition here none of this Rogers stuff will matter.
Personally, I hope he can work it out with Roders, but sadly the money issue may prevent that from happening.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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So should the Steelers players have respected Tomlin last year? How about the Dolphins and their new coach?
Apples and oranges. The circumstances that caused the situation with Brown and 'Gini aren't applicable to the Steelers and the Dolphins. Different players, different coaches, different circumstances.
Break this down further. In one breath you say that today's NFL coach has to earn the respect of his players, and in the next you say that this doesn't apply to the Steelers or the Dolphins. Nobody that the Dolphins hired came in with the respect of the players. Tomlin certainly didn't up in Pittsburgh...far from it, as a matter of fact. So why doesn't this apply to them? Are you saying that only in the Cleveland Browns organization do head coaches have to come in and earn the respect of the players? Because it seems that you are.
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j/c
RE: Rogers - Is there a weight clause in his contract? IF not at most Mangini should have said was something along the lines of "Gee if you don't come to camp in shape it will be rough going". If there is a weight clause then he had every right to remind Rogers but even then I think it was poor form to tell him to not bother showing up if his weight was too heavy.
RE: Wimbley - Could Ryan make him any less effective if he tried?
Last edited by Jester; 03/01/09 03:50 PM.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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j/c
RE: Rogers - Is there a weight clause in his contract? IF not at most Mangini should have said was something along the lines of "Gee if you don't come to camp in shape it will be rough going". If there is a weight clause then he had every right to remind Rogers but even then I think it was poor form to tell him to not bother showing up if his weight was too heavy.
RE: Wimbley - Could Ryan make him any less effective if he tried?
Didn't Pluto just suggest that Mangini told Rogers to STAY in shape, not lose weight?
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8. Rogers also wondered why the Browns were hard-balling him about his weight. He was in the 360-pound range all last season -- which is what the team asked. The Browns have since communicated to Rogers that they know he is in decent shape now, and they just want him to stay in condition.
you had a good run Hank.
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Except for Mangini and Rogers I don't think anyone knows exactly what was said. But I believe it was reported that the Browns told Rogers that if he wasn't under 360# then to not bother showing up for minicamp or what ever those things are called now adays.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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I have seen tougher camps ran by middle school coaches compared to what the Browns have been running.
I can agree with that. Wasnt much yelling, correcting or balls to wall practicing going on in my visits to Berea.
It seemed like most of the sweat was coming from Brady Quinn when he threw the ball after practice and signed autographs for an hour after the rest of the team went inside. As a fan who enjoyed getting an autograph as a kid and taking my kids and nephews to get autographs, I liked Lakelands old training camp setup better. The players had to walk past the fans on both sides of them to go inside after practice and alot signed. Now they dont have to worry about it. The fans are sectioned off far away from the indoor facilities entrance.
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Legend
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Can you find me a link to where Rogers is asking for more $$$$ ?? ... Is there any comment from him or his agent about wanting Haynesworth ( spelling ) money ??? Or is this the media and fans running their mouths ? Not trying to be different , but just can't find anything definitive !
No No,, I'm commenting on this article.. I even put in a disclamer as to whether or not Pluto has it right or not.
But really, If I'm Rogers, I know I had as good a year as Haynesworth,,,, individually anyway, so if he's worth that,,, so am I.... Now,, does he really feel that way.. hell if I know.
But if he does and he's using a bunch of trumped up garbage in order to avoid looking like a greedy jerk, then No, I don't think much of him as a person.. would you if it were true?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I wouldnt be in favor of Rogers getting more money since he was given a contract extension to be one of the top paid d-lineman last year. These guys crack me up. They become the top paid player at the position and the price always goes up to the next top FA at the position next year. So they want more money. I guess being paid like the top guy at the position for only one year isnt good enough.
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Please understand, I'm NOT saying this is what's going on with Rogers,, I'm merely commenting on, as Pluto eludes to, if it's happening..
I haven't heard from any other source confirm that he's asking for a dime.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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This article is a perfect example as to why Mangini and Co. dont like leaks to the media. Things that happen at a dinner banquet get reported and blown out of perportion and the next thing you know is that the star Pro Bowl defensive lineman dont want his $6 million bonus.
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So should the Steelers players have respected Tomlin last year? How about the Dolphins and their new coach?
Apples and oranges. The circumstances that caused the situation with Brown and 'Gini aren't applicable to the Steelers and the Dolphins. Different players, different coaches, different circumstances.
Break this down further. In one breath you say that today's NFL coach has to earn the respect of his players, and in the next you say that this doesn't apply to the Steelers or the Dolphins. Nobody that the Dolphins hired came in with the respect of the players. Tomlin certainly didn't up in Pittsburgh...far from it, as a matter of fact. So why doesn't this apply to them? Are you saying that only in the Cleveland Browns organization do head coaches have to come in and earn the respect of the players? Because it seems that you are.
No, I said the situations were different.
Specifically speaking, Ez did something that happens to us in every thread, which is to drift off to a slightly different if no less important point. Following what happened here with Rogers and 'Gini, he then commented that things shouldn't be any different here than they are with the Steelers or the Dolphins. My statement that they are apples and oranges stems from the fact that we have a SPECIFIC situation here that doesn't/didn't exist in either of those cities. If those cities had a similiar situation, we could use them to debate a point, but we don't, so we can't.
To make it a little easier to put your mind on, ask yourself if before Tomlin ever took the practice field, did he have a disgruntled player that felt disrespected by the coach? I don't recall that he did, so the two situations don't apply to the topic at hand.
Simply put, 'Gini got off on the wrong foot with Rogers before he's even met all the players. Because of the timing, he hasn't even had the opportunity to show the players what he's all about, ergo there's really nothing for the players to base respect on.
Now, that brings us full-circle back to the point: A new coach should have gone a little further in contacting a disgruntled player, regardless of whether or not it's fair or just. It simply is what it is, which is a sign of the times. The proof, if you will, is that 'Gini and Co. have now reached out to Rogers. If they had been right, there seemingly wouldn't have been a need to do so.
To me, and quite possibly ONLY to me, this has become a much bigger deal because two grown-ass men are a little too full of themselves to have done the right thing  'Rogers really is a "Big Baby" and 'Gini wasn't feeling smart enough to pick up the damned phone and take ten minutes out of his busy day to stop this from becoming what it has become. Now they are mending fences by doing what should have been done weeks ago.
When it's all said and done, they are going to be just fine. 'Gini (or someone smarter than him) informed him of how this should be played out, and the burned bridges are being mended.
On a side note, I don't personally feel this is about money. Sure, Rogers is probably gawking at the deal Haynsworth got, but it's not really a 7-year $100 million dollar deal. It's more likely a 4-year $45-$50 million dollar deal, give or take a year and several million Haynsworth got more guaranteed money but not THAT much more. He did it one year after Rogers did, afterall.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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