DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum FREE AGENT SIGNINGS PART DEUX

Ya know what the good thing about this is......we got options...something we have never had....I like it......

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You are going to start hearing how Mangini and Kokinis are doing a masterful job of handling the salary ccap,and they are.But what they're not doing is bringing in Grade A talent.That's something this team needs.

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Did you ever think that that would be what the DRAFT would be for?

We bring in the veteran guys to push and provide leadership. These guys know what playing in the NFL is all about. They are here to start if they have to, but also so we are not just "handing" the starting spot to a rookie.

Your, right, we are not spending money on FA'gency, but have you ever noticed, the established, quality teams herdly ever do. (i.e. Pittsburgh, New England, Indy, etc.).

Fraley had been pretty serviceable in 06-07, but he was getting beat like a red-headed stepchild in '08. As much as I'd like to go LB/RB/WR with our first 2nd rounder, if Mack slips to us, I think we should pull the trigger.

That is if we don't make some sort of trade, say with Philly. (I'd love to have those 2 picks, plus their third.)

j/c I haven't seen a lot of St. Clair to really state what I think of him...I think he made some major break through the last season and possibly found a home for himself at RT??? We'll see or maybe we won't see?

But I do know that Shaffer was the weak link on our OL at RT especially if this new O is to smack teams in their mouth...Shaffer was weak at smacking in probably the most Smackdown OL position. And his pass blocking pretty much Sucked and was a major disappointment last season. So that - as long as we don't have a Chanoine taking his place which I can safely say St. Clair is not...we won't downgrade...I'm just not sure how much we will upgrade.

Of course if Andre Smith is in our future...we just upgraded SOOOOOO MUCH

JMHO

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So that - as long as we don't have a Chanoine taking his place which I can safely say St. Clair is not...we won't downgrade...I'm just not sure how much we will upgrade.

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I agree with this statement. But....

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But I do know that Shaffer was the weak link on our OL

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I gotta disagree with this one. True Shaffer was not a strong point but the weakest link was Hadnot. So many missed blocks. And not because he he couldn't physically do it. Maybe he could. But I saw so many of the sacks we gave up run right by Hadnot while he was looking the other way. The rusher gets to our Qb untouched.

"I gotta disagree with this one."

I like when people put that in. And trust me its not just you in posts - but its like...Ok what does that exactly mean. If you were Larry Zierlien who I respect regarding the OL position - I would be like oh craps...my bad....lol

Actually Hadnot I didn't really see him as a LINK, I saw Tucker as our RG and Hadnot was the starter due to injury making him depth. The choices for me were JoeT, ES, Fraley, Tucker and Shaffer.
Hadnot only went in there due to injury. I know different but just letting you know where my head is at. DA vs BQ...and then I say no the weak link was Dorsey not one of those two? See, I never looked at Hadnot as the starter...evidently neither did M/K as we went out and got Womack.

So it was Fraley or Shaffer as the only possible choice for me.
so you can disagree with me all you want. I'm not taking names and making a list

I said what I said and still stick to it

Yeah, GM, I'm with Loki on this one. I love Hank. He is a class act and a great guy. He hustles more than anyone on the team. Everytime we have a long run you see big ole 66 down there leading the way. My family lovingly refers to him as Hank the Tank. But he can't play well against these dominant noses we face consistantly. In another division he can still be a good starter, but not in this one. As much as it pains me to say, Hank is someone that we should be looking at upgrading.

Alex Mack would be ideal. He reminds me of LeCharles Bentley. He is big, strong, and powerful. He is a force in the run game and is great at driving those defensive tackles. He gets a great push off the ball. He is perfect for the 3-4.

Hank got our QB killed by LB's at times last year... He would slide over to help someone as soon as the ball is hiked and the MLB would zoom str8 in to the QB....

i see that as our coaching trying to compensate for below average RG play, as opposed to a lacking on fraley's part.

i definitely think we need to find fraley's replacement and mack sounds like an amazing prospect. i certainly wouldn't put it past mangini to draft him, after his first season with the jets where he picked d'brick and mangold both in the 1st round.

that said, fraley still has a year or two in him but the previous posts saying he can handle the smaller linemen are right. unfortunately, he needs good guard play to handle the hamptons and ngatas of our division. still, you have to respect the guy for giving it his all every time. you never see fraley on his ass, even while handling the large NTs. puts schaffers handling by freeney in perspective, eh?

Mack is a good name for a centre
His name reminds me of Kevin Mack, a Brown I remember fondly.

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I like when people put that in. And trust me its not just you in posts - but its like...Ok what does that exactly mean. If you were Larry Zierlien who I respect regarding the OL position - I would be like oh craps...my bad....lol

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So what you're saying is that unless a poster is an NFl coach that if he/she disagrees with you then their opinion is worthless? good to know for future disagreements. Would you prefer that I start referring to myself in the 3rd person? What do want people to say when they disagree?

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Actually Hadnot I didn't really see him as a LINK, I saw Tucker as our RG and Hadnot was the starter due to injury making him depth.

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If that is the way you look at it then I have no prblem with you not considering Hadnot as the weak link. But I do believe he started a fair number more games than Tucker. And by saying you didn't even consider Hadnot good enough to be a link basically says you agree with me.

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so you can disagree with me all you want. I'm not taking names and making a list

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Well I am taking names and making a list. And believe when Christmas comes around Santa will have that list in his hands. So watch out

"So what you're saying is that unless a poster is an NFl coach that if he/she disagrees with you then their opinion is worthless?"

And you made a complaint in another thread in another time and place that I take peoples quotes and twist them? and I felt bad about it....no I read this. You all who complain to me about posting edicate have one big set of internet culuunes. sorry that was very disappointing.

"What do want people to say when they disagree?"
Simply just that - I disagree and this is why...which basically you did but I had to laugh at the phrasing. Cause it comes across as you are the teacher grading my paper...ergo my remark about Zierlien.

Don't grade me...disagree with me and make your points. thats all.

No bid deal just made a comment about it as I tend to PROSE my thoughts openly. Sorry for not being a backstabbing two faced poster....lol

back to football which is all I want...not these personality games...come to know me as a person and you won't have any problems I'm sure and I'm sure that goes vice versa.

" But I do believe he started a fair number more games than Tucker."

Not because he beat Tucker out....because Tucker was on the IR??? or did I miss something. Like anything in life quite frankly...its not "QUANTITY" its "QUALITY".

"And by saying you didn't even consider Hadnot good enough to be a link basically says you agree with me."

Got news for ya...in most of this Tit - for - Tat stuff there is more agreement than disagreement...if we were in a BAR with immediate feedback in discussion most of these arguments would not happen...cause there is fast responses and reactions to what is opined in the exchange...but through the internet which is a fantastic venue...the communication factor is very inferior and for that reason most disagreements occur...not too much opinion but the presentation on the INTERNET.

When I mentioned making a list...I was pretty much stating that I really don't take all this as serious as everyone perceives. Make no mistake - I enjoy talking about football and especially the Browns immensly...I know I'm a control freak - there's a reason I've been a HC and decent one at that...go ask CoachB But I understand who I am and how I might come off at times. Heck I don't have the physical presence I once commanded...I'm short so I'm not an OLD 6'4" guy - I use to be considered strong like a fire hydrant...now I'm not feared at all and look more like a Weeble...lol

I got old friends who can remember the folk lore of my past...I am at the age I don't feel I have to prove myself anylonger. I'm not making a list - just looking to share knowledge and absorb as much as I can

enjoy.

People can pimp Fraley all day, he absolutely sucked last season.Our biggest hole, by far, was at center, then RG...not RT. However we MADE THAT HOLE.

Now we have journeymen RG in chop, and aging RG in Tuck, and a bust RT. If St/ Claire was anywhere near what some are pimping him to be on this board, the man would not have left Chi that easy. And would have been one of the top FA available, as OL are so valuable.

People complain about our run blocking last season, yet all RB's other than Jamal, found space to run when in the game. Hint, Hint, we need another RB. We better take Mack or Robinson in round 2, and then get a RB...or our 2008 running game will seem spectacular.

Bottom line, we have cheap bums that are barely band aids. They arent guys that are going to help anything, they are just about on par or slightly worse than what we had. They are just cheaper, and EM guys.

Fraley has a dunlap.

Not sure how my statement came across as my grading your paper. I was commenting on several of your statements and told you which one I agreed with and which one I didn't and why. Don't know any way to make that distinction than to just say it like I did. In my posts I try to make it clear which part of anothers post I am agreeing with and which I disagree with. I also try to state clearly when it is my opinion vs draftniks vs other.

You come back at me with the Zierlien comment and I take it to mean you could care less about my (or anybody else's) opinion. Point taken about twisting others comments. I should have phrased it as a question rather than a statement.

With Tucker we just look at it differently. Yea Hadnot got the job because of injury but he was our starting RG for the vast majority of the season. You look at Hadnot as not a link because of this. I look at at Tucker as not a link because of this. Half full vs half empty. Maybe we could agree RG was one of the biggest weak links on the oline last year?

Sorry to make you feel bad with that comment in the other thread. We all twist others comments to make points. Most of the time (for all posters) it is to demonstrate how anothers comments don't exactly make sense and can be a very effective means of doing so. The danger with this technique and we all do it is that we sometimes miss their point and we twist their comments to something other than the original intent. Which is what I felt you did to me in that other thread.

I agree that differences in opinion are more easily discussed over a beer or 2 (or 6 ) Intonation and facial expressions really do make a difference and makes internet and texting far inferior to actual conversation. I don't hold grudges (often) and have no issues with you personally. If there are still issues PM and we'll sort things out.

"If there are still issues PM and we'll sort things out."

Oh oh, an Internet - meet me in the parking lot and we'll settle this...lol

j/k - nah, no issues what so ever.

Just all remember one thing...just cause we had a jerk on this board claiming knowledge...doesn't negate those on here who do have it. And not once do I go around saying my opinion is right cause I've done this or done that. I always try to explain in detail (sometimes too much) why I hold that opinion. And I have a lot of experience I'm willing to share...to any board member who coaches or have kids looking to learn - I haven't coached since 02??? heck I can't even remember...lol

But I try to study and learn and learn from whoever/wherever I can. Its never personal...how can it be - I don't even know you.

JMHO

Wasn't a let's take this outside and settle things like men comment. Just don't like when others argue non-football stuff to much in threads so just trying to be courteous to others. Yea I know this is an unusual sentiment on the board but hey..

Not saying you don't have knowledge. Like you I enjoy sharing my knowledge and opinion and getting feedback especially when others disagree. I like getting the differing perspectives. I just don't like it when it feels like my opinion is dismissed as meaningless which is the impression I got from a few of your replys to some of my posts. Just a misunderstanding over intent.

So at this point I don't even know which thread we are in but I'll ask your opinion on this question I am struggling with. I definitely see us taking an olineman in the 2nd round - or at least I think we should but I admit I carry an oline bias. I would love Mack at Center and I would love Duke Robinson at RG with Tucker either at RG or RT and the 3rd guy the winner of the Fraley/Womack/St Clair battle.

So my question for you because I know you love linemen too is if both are available at #36 which way should we go and why? I don't see either lasting to #50. Though there will be a good center prospect available but not as good as Mack. We could also get a guy like Canfield or a Tyronne Green in the 4th but I would consider those fall back options if we can't get Mack or Duke.

So...Mack or Duke at #36 if both are available? Or better value with one of the other Center prospects at #50?

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Now we have journeymen RG in chop, and aging RG in Tuck, and a bust RT. If St/ Claire was anywhere near what some are pimping him to be on this board, the man would not have left Chi that easy

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How do you get "a bust RT"? He played LT for Chicago, and then was moved to RT when they upgraded him. He was a pretty good run blocker and so-so in pass protection.
Also Chicago did try to resign him, we out bid them.
While he is not the cream of the crop, he is not as bad as you try to make him sound.
Once again you make things up, it's a wonder you didn't call him a "bum" like you have others since you read Diam calling guys bums.

I still feel Hadnot is a true center. Move Porkchop to RG and draft Smith with the no.5!!!!!

Maybe keep Fraley at C and draft Shipley in the 5th or 6th to groom at C and keep Porkchop at RG and draft Smith at no.5.

I like the option of moving Hadnot to C and Porkchop at RT and drafting a 2nd or 3rd round G.....and still drafting Shipley in the later rounds.

or maybe.......

This thread might as well be full of cricket sounds....

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since you read Diam calling guys bums.

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When you have been around Diamond on this board for 7 or 8 years.......BUM has a different meaning when he uses it.

"So my question for you because I know you love linemen too is if both are available at #36" - both meaning Mack C n Duke Robinson OG.

Well several keys - you alway would like to get the BEST PLAYER of that position in the draft. In other words some would argue Loadholt here...but he'd be like the 3rd or 4th option for RT where Mack is the #1 Center in the draft. And Robinson is the #1 OG of this draft...so that doesn't help cause they both are #1's in the draft that we would get.

Now we have to come down to Position and rarities for solutions in this league. I believe with 2 variables...the fact that there are more n more 3-4 Defenses and 2 happen to be our biggest Division competition. The Center more n more have become a factor in the NFL and not enough Big ones, strong ones seem to come out of College. Last year there were several top acclaimed Centers and quite frankly they couldn't make the grade in the NFL. But OGs seem pretty plentiful. Cause you have OGs from college...plus a bevy of OTs who at 6'3" or 4" in college was good enough - or footwork was good enough for OT in college just won't transition well for OT in the NFL...well add them in the mix for possible OGs.

OGs in their prime have been made available in the FA market...Why cause the teams who have them...easily got a kid in the 4th round who they groomed and are ready to make their mark so because of CAP they let that stud OG go. Again it all comes down to "RARITY".

So on that basis I think we would go for Mack 100% cause that position will be tougher to fill as a stud than RG...the skill sets needed for RG are not hard to find.

Also look who we have brought in for visits.
Mack and Wood...two big strong Center prospects.
And some other (forgot his name its a weird one) Levitre or something. Well he played LT, LG, RG n RT in his career and is solid. So he's one of those versatile get in the ranks - good foundation OLmen who could end up developing and becoming a starter at OG

So for OG we are looking for Womack (Tucker should/could beat him out) but I don't think we have any long term aspirations for Tucker...he studs out he might get the job. He gets injured again and we will never see him in a Brown's uni again.

I don't think we will look for an Impact OG to take his spot from the draft...maybe one in the 4th, 6th or other draft picks we pick up along the way for the 2nd day.

Center...Is more than possible...and more like Probable.

JMHO

Eo,

That line of thinking makes sense to me...moreso than the BPA discussions/arguments that pop up on here now and again.

Anyway...

Tell me about Hadnot. I keep reading where people think he is a "true" center. I have no idea what the heck that means...but I see Hadnot as a serviceable backup. I would not use the term "true" center. (Then again, I always view C & G as quite interchangeable.)

If we draft a C...no way Fraley AND Hadnot are on this team out of camp...that is IF Hadnot is a "true" C. This Hadnot thing is a missing link for me.

I don't recall anyone saying Hadnot is a true center.
I said I think he's playing out of position at RG..and center appears to be a more natural position for him..I think he would provider better blocking than Fraley does ..more strength and power..
I know drafting Alex Mack would probably be better..since he is a natural center and already is stronger than Hank is..so if they do that somebody needs to go..and somebody needs to be a backup..which sounds like Hadnot.

Excellent post eo. When we work together good things come about

Very sound logic and if both Mack and Robinson are studs and both are available, I go along with Mack over Robinson (though still happy with either).

The only thing keeping me from being 100% sold is that I have seen Duke play and have no doubt that unless he has off field issue (dedication to training, 'roids etc) he will be a stud on the NFL level and if needed I think he could be a steller RT. As for Mack, I have not seen him with my own eyes so I am just going by the experts on TV/radio and their opinions. And there are so many on them (some who change their opinions weekly) that you can't help but get varying opinions.

OAKLAND, Calif. (AP) -- After a four-team, five-season odyssey since leaving the 49ers, Jeff Garcia finally found his way back home to the Bay Area -- albeit on the other side from where he started.

The four-time Pro Bowl quarterback joined the Oakland Raiders on Monday, with the 39-year-old passer agreeing to a one-year deal to be JaMarcus Russell's backup.

Raiders senior executive John Herrera told The Associated Press that Garcia will join the club's offseason workout program immediately in the next stage of a remarkable NFL career that didn't begin until 1999 after a long detour to the Canadian Football League.

Garcia spent the past two seasons with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, starting 24 games while leading them to a division title and a playoff berth in 2007, when he also earned his fourth Pro Bowl berth. Despite solid numbers last season -- 2,712 yards passing and a 90.2 passer rating with 12 touchdowns and just six interceptions -- he wasn't re-signed by the Bucs and new coach Raheem Morris, who apparently is going with Brian Griese or Luke McCown at the position.

Garcia, who will be paid more than the league minimum by Oakland, is a native of Gilroy, Calif., just south of San Jose. Although several teams had interest in Garcia as a backup, he chose the Raiders for the chance to continue his career close to home with a familiar coaching staff, including passing game coordinator Ted Tollner, a former 49ers assistant.

Garcia played at San Jose State and enjoyed the best seasons of his NFL career with San Francisco. He passed for 16,408 yards and 113 touchdowns for the team he grew up supporting, making three Pro Bowls and two playoff appearances from 1999-2003 after joining the Niners from a Grey Cup-winning career in the CFL.

Garcia also cites a game at the Coliseum in November 2002 as one of the proudest moments of his NFL career. He led the 49ers to a 23-20 overtime victory over the Raiders, passing for 282 yards and completing 17 of his 19 passes after halftime while San Francisco ran the game's final 30 plays in a remarkable display of ball-control offense.

After the 49ers released him in a cost-cutting move by former general manager Terry Donahue, Garcia bounced to Cleveand (2004), Detroit (2005), Philadelphia (2006) -- where he won another division title and made another playoff appearance -- and Tampa Bay, never finding a long-term home.

Despite loud suggestions by fans late last season at Candlestick Park, the 49ers never appeared interested in pursuing Garcia to compete for their muddled starting job with Shaun Hill and Alex Smith, signing 35-year-old career backup Damon Huard instead.

Copyright 2009 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published

Perfect situation for him ... winding down his career, good chance he'll find his way to the field, gets to go back home to Northern California.

I liked Garcia. Can't believe he's 39.

i really think he got the short end of the stick here in cleveland and wasnt given a chance, of course we do that to alot of players and then wonder why nobody wants to come play here.

i didnt realize he was that old either but the old man can still toss the rock around the field. haha

The NFL player's graveyard. Perfect place for him.

Garcia is a football player, smart and a competitor. The best QB we've had since Kosar IMO. Too bad Botch didn't know what to do with him.
I've always thought Winslow's injury in his rookie year screwed up any chance for us in 2004. We sucked anyway, but KW2 would have helped Garcia & the entire offence if he hadn't hurt his leg in Dallas.

I know Jeff likes California and all but I don't understand why the Raiders wanted him. I guess a one-year deal is nothing in the NFL but doesn't Al Davis like a vertical down field attack? Maybe Jeff is there for their Wildcat packages?