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If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Ballpeen and Damanshot: LOL! Why don't you two just fight and get it over with? 3:00 at the park! Be there!! 
Find one of Versitile's and Mac's arguments. They have more of a "meet you outside" feel. Daman and peen have more of a "discussion over stogies and scotch" feel.
God, it's great to be back!
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I don't know for sure if Peen would agree, but I sure look at it that way with him.... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'm growing impatient with impatience.
I've been at that point for a couple of months.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Here...this post is for Diam n why STATS ARE FOR LOSERS... *L*
The stupidest stat I saw utilized to stress a point: In the positional reviews regarding OL.
"Tucker missed seven games with a mental disorder. The Browns were 2-5 in those games."
Oh my goodness how BAD our team was in those 7 games that Tucker missed  thats why the season was lost.
Of course the Browns were 2-7 in the 9 games that Tucker didn't miss??? lol 
What a stupid Stat to put out to convey how much the team got hurt by the absence of Tucker 
I just thought that was so rediculous - I couldn't believe the writer did that...lol sorry - now you know how warped my humor is and what touches me off as funny. 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Find one of Versitile's and Mac's arguments.
No thanks! I feel safer with Daman and Peen. Get in the mix with daman and peen and you might catch a left to the jaw. Get in the mix with vers and mac and you're ducking bullets! Versatile should change his name to Volatile. j/k You're right, it's definitely good to be back! 
Follow me on Twitter <a href="link" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/CoachA12</a>
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The Browns want to make sure they get it right this time when they form their offensive coaching staff
Hmmm..........does this mean they didn't want to make sure they got it right the first time?
---Peen: I disagree that RAC and Savage are joined at the hip. Savage is setting RAC up for the big fall next year. It's amazing that it's his moves that have gotten everyone fired or motivated to move on. Yet, no one but me questions Savage's moves?
----Someone mentioned this being a national article and it was amazing how well a nat'l author knew the Browns. Well, I have found that most national articles on specific teams are actually written by writers from the local teams. I clicked on the link and it didn't take me anywhere, but may I ask just who the author was?
----LOL at those who are impatint w/the impatient people. Losing is soooooo much fun. Firing coaches is grand. Bringing in new schemes is a joy. Gosh......talking about the drafts instead of the playoffs is a real hoot.
Truthfully, I am pretty sick of all the excuse making and the apologists. I'm real tired of all the irrational predictions and bad-mouthing of teams that blow our doors off every year. And I am fed up w/excuses.
So.......I guess we are even, in a weird sort of way.
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The defensive coaches want him back because he is the glue that holds the secondary together.
I didn't think Russel was very good when we acquired him, but he has surpised me. I was wrong about the guy. He ain't great, but he is pretty good and it was obvious the defense missed him after he was injured. Big time!
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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---Peen: I disagree that RAC and Savage are joined at the hip. Savage is setting RAC up for the big fall next year. It's amazing that it's his moves that have gotten everyone fired or motivated to move on. Yet, no one but me questions Savage's moves?
Like I said...I could be wrong....but right now, I don't think so, so I will stick to my take.
You aren't the only one.....if you think back to last year in the Savage,Collins deal, I was saying that Collins could be right in his opinion of the guy. I have said all types of things about Savage and his snake like manner...but I do credit you with being the leader of the pack on the Savage topic..... 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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But he's a good christian guy who brings in christian players. Remember that quote? I think he can judge talent though.
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what if Romeo can't handle things behind the scenes, what if randy just doesn't have faith in him? maybe randy is setting things up.
I think randy wants to win now, and is the source of some of these problems. If randy really wanted stability, we would have it.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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Ahhh...........good point. You trumped me.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Randy is the owner....he can set the table any way he likes. And from what I can tell, he has and will. That is a big part of why I tend to think Phil and Romeo's fates are more closely tied than some others do.....shoot...Randy was pretty darn close to canning Savage last year. It could be the other way.....Lerner could like Romeo. As some say, Savage didn't hire Romeo....Lerner and Collins did...If Savage is trying to get rid of Lerners hire....egos may be clashing. Lerner could take the tack that it is Savage who isn't providing the players necessary for Romeo to succeed. Is that at least possible?? I know the answer. 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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It could be the other way.....Lerner could like Romeo. As some say, Savage didn't hire Romeo....Lerner and Collins did...If Savage is trying to get rid of Lerners hire....egos may be clashing. Lerner could take the tack that it is Savage who isn't providing the players necessary for Romeo to succeed.
Is that at least possible??
Yes, it is possible. But, from what I hear.....it ain't so.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Right! Signing talent is job one. Get enough talent and I'll coach em to a Super Bowl. Another sub .500 season and poor old RAC gets sacrificed. Thats just the way it is.  If we can build a running game this off season I think RAC has chance, if not it's another dog and pony show for a head coach.
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i don't know that rac and savage are really joined at the hip...and heres why...
what is savage really supposed to be doing? The answer is obviously bringing in talent..
now we all could (and have) argued as to what degree he is accomplishing that...but i would have to say that maybe your 1st and 2nd rounder would come in an make an impact pretty quickly....maybe a 3rd rounder now and again....but the rest of the draft is gonna be failures, and developmental guys...in other words if your gonna see something out of them its gonna take 2-3 years for them to develop...on top of that the first thru third rounds are littered with busts too, probably half the guys picked aren't gonna live up to expectations....there is another coin flip...happens to all the teams in the nfl...
even the ones from the first 3 rounds are gonna make rookie mistakes and have a learning curve...
so basically its not until the second, or probably 3rd year that he will see the fruits of much of his labor...in other words....edwards, pool, and frye should come on strong next year....within the next 2 years....wimbley, jackson, and wilson...
and even if we look at the few drafts before savage got here....jones came on strong...bodden....davis....its taken time for these guys to develop....
some of these players could bust too...or just be backups....
so when it comes to a guy thats bringing in talent, the jury has to still be out imo....its only fair....if millen can stay in detroit for all those years, it would be an injustice to do the same to savage...
this brings me to my next point....rac is a victim of circumstance...
butch and palmer were in the same boat...trying to coach crappy untalented teams....
add injuries into the equation...especially with the concentrations that we had at only a few positions (center and corner) and that was a difficult hurdle to jump....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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You guys are probably right.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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----Someone mentioned this being a national article and it was amazing how well a nat'l author knew the Browns. Well, I have found that most national articles on specific teams are actually written by writers from the local teams. I clicked on the link and it didn't take me anywhere, but may I ask just who the author was?
uh- that'd be me. Thanks for giving me the tip on where their info comes from.
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LOL at those who are impatint w/the impatient people. Losing is soooooo much fun. Firing coaches is grand. Bringing in new schemes is a joy. Gosh......talking about the drafts instead of the playoffs is a real hoot.
uh- That'd be me. Again.
Last week, I just annoyed the hell outta you- but this week I seem to at least give you a laff. I guess that's progress, "in a wierd sort of way."
Look- the fact that I made a conscious decision to wait&watch when we had the big '05 changeover put me in Long Mode where watching the Browns was concerned. That mindset allowed me to get ready for the long haul that was about to unfold for us. It was only common sense. It kept me from throwing an ashtray into the TV screen after the first Ravens game, and it keeps me from wanting to fire everyone every day.
Here's my point: I CHOSE patience as my course of action when I saw how many changes where being made at key spots, and how truly awful our team was when those big changes were made. It's why I'm getting exasperated with Dawgs who want to keep changing the Browns' Major Players... in midseaon or at any new opportunity.
iirc, I was one of the few Dawgs still aligned with you when the big 'Mo Must Go' campaign started around here. At that time, we saw things the same way... at least partially because my long-term mindset told me that you were right about constant high-level changes. I still feel the same way... so what's up? Why are you whipping me like I'm your personal rented mule?
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----LOL at those who are impatint w/the impatient people. Losing is soooooo much fun. Firing coaches is grand. Bringing in new schemes is a joy. Gosh......talking about the drafts instead of the playoffs is a real hoot.
Exactly my point, Vers. The "impatient people" I was talking about are the very ones same ones you've been lambasting for months around here. The ones who want new coaches, new schemes, new- everything, just because stuff ain't pretty RIGHT NOW.
If you'd stop fighting with the entire world for a minute or two, you might realize that there are a few folks on it that actually agree with you.
Sometimes.
When you're right.
Sheesh!
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Truthfully, I am pretty sick of all the excuse making and the apologists.
If I can see reasons for a situation to be as it is, that doesn't mean I'm making excuses or apologizing for it. I'm not stupid enough to wear B&O glasses, and I'm not stupid enough to believe that it's all doom & gloom, either. Romeo isn't crap, and Phil doesn't walk on water.
Give a Dawg some credit, willya?
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Actually, I think my sarcastic remarks were directed towards PPE. You made a comment and he expounded on it. So, it's going to be pretty hard to argue w/you. I am w/you on making a plan and sticking w/it. However, I really don't see the Browns doing that. Look at all the changes that have occured since Junior took over. I bet he's made more changes than any other owner has. Then, look at how many more changes him and Opie have made this year. And I bet we end up w/coaches who are not as qualified as the ones we either fired or let go. And do you really think that RAC will survive next season?
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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It is not as though the Browns were having sucess with the Palmer/Davis eras.
Davis quit on the team. Lerner did not fire him. Lerners bad decsion was in hiring a Coach/GM (Davis) when the responsibilities should have been split to a greater degree.
When you are 4-12, and showing no improvement, changes will happen. Players will be moved, coaches will be moved as well.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!…. That did not age well.
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NRTU..
I think RAC and Phil have more time than most here think. Does Randy want to win now ? Sure, but I remember his press conference's after the Davis fiasco and after he hired Savage. He seemed intent on stopping the swinging door and making a commitment to keep the staff in place for as long as it took. I really think he knows the talent level here was near zero and RAC was not responsible for the past two years. I give him 2 more years before being under ownership pressure to move on. If we lose big next year I CAN see fan pressure causing RAC to resign but I really don't think Randy will fire him yet.
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I am w/you on making a plan and sticking w/it. However, I really don't see the Browns doing that.
Me, either. It's been too many years since that has been the MO in Berea... and I see at least another 3-5 years before these lunkheads 'get it.' It will take that long 'til they exhaust all the other permutataions, and start examining what's already obvious to you and me. What a pity.
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Look at all the changes that have occured since Junior took over.
Some, I can understand. When Butch bailed, I expected wholesale changes- from top to bottom. Truth be told, I was surprised that some names remained after Savage & Crennel were hired. Usually, a new broom sweeps clean. What concerns me, is how many changes have happened since the '05 "fresh start." Any team that was as f'd up and fragile as ours needed solidity and consistency FROM DAY ONE. That (at least to me) meant 4-5 years of high-level consistency. One, maybe two spots could change, but the big pic (GM to Coordinators) would have to remain the same, to develop all those things that Browns fans so desperately crave.
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And I bet we end up w/coaches who are not as qualified as the ones we either fired or let go.
I understand your predict, Vers. I'm still a bit of an optimist, so I'll go even odds. Lots of guys are qualified to assume new roles on new teams. The trick is finding the right one for the right job at the right time. Is Chudzie a good fit as our new OC? Is he a "good fit at a bad time?"
Only time will tell... and with this team, time is one thing nobody seems to get.
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And do you really think that RAC will survive next season?
No. Not unless he at least goes 9-7, and just barely misses the Wildcard on a last-minute FG. Sad, but true. If our rescord is anything less than that, I think Randy will cave- unless the fans and media give him a break. (Yeah- like that's gonna happen...)
Look- I'll welcome the newcomers, and hope they do well here. That's how I am as a Browns fan. At the same time, I won't allow myself to get too attached to them, knowing our team's history of quick bailouts. A good coach/exec in a bad situation is no more secure than a bad one in a bad situation... and we're so freakkin' bad right now, we can't tell one from another.
Joey Porter is quoted as saying "Our team is soft." Much as I despise him, I can't argue with him. The Browns' "softness" comes from The Top. A football team is like a house built upside-down. The foundation of the house is at the top. Since we've replaced 100% of our foundation (which was built on quicksand to begin with...) it shouldn't be a surprise anyone that our house doesn't meet code now.
Like I said- the impatience (from top to bottom on the inside, AND in fanland) is driving me crazy.
Steelers- TWO HC's in THIRTY years.
grumblegrumblegrumble... [rant: /off]
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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I think RAC and Phil have more time than most here think.
Man, I hope you're right.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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This will scare you.......I agree w/most of what you wrote. Hmmm....let me try to find some things to debate. Quote:
Some, I can understand. When Butch bailed, I expected wholesale changes- from top to bottom.
You gotta remember that Junior made changes before he forced Butch out the door. He took away the power from others in the organzation and gave it all to Butch. He then runs him out in less than a year. I realize that a lot of that was Damien's doing, but Junior was on-board w/it. I still think it was too early.
The big concern is all the changes we have undergone this year. Two years w/a poor talent base is hardly a fair shot. And think about how many people hung their hats on Junior making the early changes because he wanted to bring his people in. While I didn't buy that, I could at least understand why people would think that. The changes that have occured this year shoots a hole in their theory though. Junior is an impatient owner who doesn't have a clue about the NFL.
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And I bet we end up w/coaches who are not as qualified as the ones we either fired or let go.
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I understand your predict, Vers. I'm still a bit of an optimist, so I'll go even odds.
Well, they may end up being better, but I don't see how anyone can say the new hires have more impressive resumes than the guys we fired or lost. It is not even close.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Vers, was Jr. somehow slipping medication to Davis without anyone knowing causing his panic attacks that led to his resignation? That is what was reported as the reason for him resigning and he never once refuted it. How is it that Jr. is responsible for Davis having problems dealing with the stress?
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Man are we a bunch of pessimists or what? Here is my 2 cents. Savage and RAC are here for at least another year. I think Lerner gets it that we pretty much didn't have any players when he took over Daddys team. I believe he has said numerous times that this is a 3-4 year deal. I don't see Lerner OR Savage firing RAC. Savage I think understands that we are only now building a team, and I don't think He'll cave to pressure. Savage IS bringing in talent. The only swing and a miss I see is Shaffer, and with a better line maybe HE is better. Maybe Tuck had his problems b/c the line was so bad and changed so much over the year he broke down. Maybe with a GOOD G next to him he comes back and plays even better. Lerner, Savage, and RAC deserver anther year. RAC has to control the team, but I think he can lose ohhhh, 7 games and still be ok.
Also I don't think we are bad as some of you seem to think. I don't think we are superbowl bound at the moment (of course I HOPE we are though), but some teams are starting to come apart right when we are coming together. I see some goood times ahead. A better O and D line, maybe LCB back. An improved linebacking corp, our DBs maybe staying healthy, some luck, and we are a good football team. Don't let the losing make you a loser. I believe and will continue to believe. (I just won't be spending any $$ on the Browns till they improve)
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Coach..........I don't want to war w/you again. But do you really believe that Damien and Junior didn't force Butch out the door?
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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This will scare you.......I agree w/most of what you wrote.
Hmmm....let me try to find some things to debate.
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Some, I can understand. When Butch bailed, I expected wholesale changes- from top to bottom.
You gotta remember that Junior made changes before he forced Butch out the door. He took away the power from others in the organzation and gave it all to Butch. He then runs him out in less than a year. I realize that a lot of that was Damien's doing, but Junior was on-board w/it. I still think it was too early.
Damien or Damanshot?
Procrastination is caused by the fear of success
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LOL.........Damien was Collins, although Damon was one of the posters who belittled me for calling him that.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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There's no war here, Vers. We buried the hatchet long ago and we can debate, as we've proven. Now, to answer your question, no, I don't think he was forced out. I do think that he was gone at the end of the year. I think he saw the writing on the wall. I also believe that the pressure got to him and he was having panic attacks. So, while I don't think he was actually forced out when he resigned, I do think that he was going at the end of the year.
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