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My advice to use is that if you read the article there are links to the actual memos. Instead of dissing a source you feel is biased read the facts for yourself.
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However, let's get the facts straight. The perp was NOT boarded 183 times.
arch...What is the source of this info you claim?... that "the perp was NOT boarded 183 times".
McCain believes one time is too many, which is an opinion none of us can give, based on our life's experiences.
It would be a mistake to ignore McCain's words, IMO...mac
Last edited by mac; 04/30/09 07:11 AM.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Oh well, the OTHER stations must be telling the truth, right? Because Fox never does. Even if the guy himself says otherwise....even if members of the red cross say otherwise.....yup, fox is lying
Arch,,, Did I say that Fox was lying... NO I didn't. I said I don't know the truth... all the hand wringing and twisting and turning by you isn't going to change that.
Sooner or later, the truth will all come out.. knowing today isn't a priority for me.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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My advice to use is that if you read the article there are links to the actual memos. Instead of dissing a source you feel is biased read the facts for yourself.
P,, you and I both know that by next week, there will be other memos and stuff that come out to refute those that are in that article...
Like I told arch,, sooner or later, all will be revealed.. we'll see I guess..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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arch...What is the source of this info you claim?... that "the perp was NOT boarded 183 times".
The article Jules posted, and linked, halfway down on the previous page.....the one that said it wasn't true, the article where the Red Cross said it didn't happen, and the article that said the guy himself said it didn't happen. But, it came from Fox news, so I'm sure you just dismiss it out of hand.
Read it, mac.
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Yeah, that's the one by Fox news... What I'm saying is that there is alternate views... and I don't actually know which is true.... do you?
I know that direct links to the actual memos that are being talked about is something other then a reporters slant.
As far as those memos. They only spell out in detail what can and cannot be done in interrogations, as well as medical requirements.
The article states what is from a leaked Red Cross report which has the disputed info. I am unable to find that memo.
Your premises that you don't know who to believe is valid IMO until I can actually see the Red Cross report. If you indeed believe the high numbers then you probably should be screaming that the interrogators be prosecuted for clearly breaking the guidelines put in place (the four memos that are in Jules post).
#gmstrong
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Your premises that you don't know who to believe is valid IMO until I can actually see the Red Cross report. If you indeed believe the high numbers then you probably should be screaming that the interrogators be prosecuted for clearly breaking the guidelines put in place
Actually, if it's proven that the numbers are indeed right, I'm personally still not going to call for any prosecutions...
I'll admit that when this thing first started to be discussed, I had a slightly different opinion.. but I've had time to reflect and I've changed my mind
While I would find what they did a misuse of thier authority, I believe it was done in an effort to protect me. I may not like it, but if someone is doing so in an effort to protect the people of the United States, I'd be more willing to say,, Ok,, you did it, I thank you for your efforts, but it stops now..
I don't really want to mire the country in this kinda stuff... Frankly, I'm of the belief that we have much bigger problems to solve and I'd rather we spend our time, energy and money in pursuit of long term solutions.
To me, this is a distraction... it's not like we can unring that bell... As the President says (and I think rightly so) let's look forward...
Last edited by Damanshot; 04/30/09 12:03 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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but if it COULD POSSIBLY save AMerican lives .. DO IT
How would you feel about paying these cats off? Instead of waterboarding them for info, we can offer them a couple million and a plane ticket to a remote island. Works with informants, right?
I mean, if it could save American lives, do it, right?
Or how about lopping off fingers one by one? Executing their kids? Where does 'if it might work, do it' end?
Yes.
There are no rules in War. Why should we give mercy when your enemy will not grant us the same pleasure of mercy? I don't care what it does, I never want to see another terrorist attack on the United States again.
you had a good run Hank.
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This kind of ignorance kills me.  It makes me wonder if some people on this board ever went to school, or read a book, or have any kind of cognitive abilities. Quote:
There are no rules in War.
Sorry to burst your bubble---but there are rules of war which all nations have agreed too.
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I never want to see another terrorist attack on the United States again.
Well guess what----at some point there will be another attack on America---by terrorists. May not be in your lifetime---but at some point, it will happen again. Cuz America tries to control and manipulate everything and some people can't stand that. Personally, I think that our exploits in the middle east, and perceived intolerance towards the muslim faith have contributed greatly to terrorism.
And why folks seem to be OK with torturing people is a bit confusing. I don't agree with it----plenty of people have came out against it---many pointing out that it isn't any more effective that traditional interrogations.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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WOW,, there was a response to this post,, then there wasn't..wonder what happened to it.....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Perhaps Thebigbaddawg thought twice about advocating the killing of children?
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Perhaps Thebigbaddawg thought twice about advocating the killing of children?
Pretty much.
I'm just going to accept the fact that I would do radical things to win a war.
you had a good run Hank.
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Perhaps Thebigbaddawg thought twice about advocating the killing of children?
Pretty much.
I'm just going to accept the fact that I would do radical things to win a war.
And that doesn't really speak negatively to you...it's a human condition to have those thoughts and feelings. We all do at times.
If we didn't have them, we wouldn't have to take steps to ensure that we don't see them through.
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Perhaps Thebigbaddawg thought twice about advocating the killing of children?
Pretty much.
I'm just going to accept the fact that I would do radical things to win a war.
And that doesn't really speak negatively to you...it's a human condition to have those thoughts and feelings. We all do at times.
If we didn't have them, we wouldn't have to take steps to ensure that we don't see them through.
Let's just say this, I think the recent administration didn't take war as serious as I do.
And I'm also very glad that I do not have to run a war either. It tears at the morals of everyone and can corrupt even the best of people.
you had a good run Hank.
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Pretty much.
I'm just going to accept the fact that I would do radical things to win a war.
I'm glad you rethought that..
The willingness to do ANYTHING to win a war isn't new. Frankly, it's an old idea.. The trick is, don't get in a war until it's the last resort..
In retrospect, this war was one that could have been avoided.. other things could have been done instead... But, that's JMO.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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The trick is, don't get in a war until it's the last resort..
And that is the point of my argument.
you had a good run Hank.
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In retrospect, this war was one that could have been avoided.. other things could have been done instead... But, that's JMO.
Are we still talking about the War on Terror?
#gmstrong
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I say it's about time we let that bunk phrase. That or wage a War on Stupidity and a War on Intolerance.
If you want it to be a War on al-Qaeda, go for it...but I feel that the phrase 'War on Terror' was designed for us to name anyone who opposed our occupation as an enemy in the fight.
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Are we still talking about the War on Terror?
I'm talking about the war in the middle east... Afganistan, Iraq etc.... I supported going into Afganistan.. my government told me that thats where the terrorists were headquartered..
I questioned going into Iraq, but again, we were told that they are harboring terrorists that are part of the group that attacked the USA. I didn't rail against it.. I sure as hell wish I would have.....
Thus my feeling that in Retrospec, we could have handled it differently... Nothing like a little hindsight right!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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In retrospect, this war was one that could have been avoided.. other things could have been done instead... But, that's JMO.
Are we still talking about the War on Terror?
I don't understand your answer. Do you think we could have avoided Iraq and Afghanistan? I can understand if you are just talking about Iraq. If you are talking about Afghanistan then I have some questions.
#gmstrong
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Yes, I think we could have avoided and should have avoided Iraq. Of course that's hindsight....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I was against both wars when it was foresight. 
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Phill you are truly......DA MAN!  
Last edited by Damanshot; 05/01/09 05:53 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I was against both wars when it was foresight.
and u were just as wrong then as u are now ... you and folks that think like U and Da Man Is Hot are chicken bleep IMO .. I can not be anymore clearer or straight to the point than that ..
and U guys are getting your way ... Obama is a weak president and has NO CLUE how to handle folks like this .. we will feel the WRATH in about 4 - 6 years ,,, thats how long it will take for him to weaken us and destroy the intlelligence networks and infra structure we have now ... JUST LIKE CLINTON DID in his 8 years ...
Da Man Is Hot ..U said sumptin different ... well hows about u give us some clue as to what that might be .... I know its alot harder to say "well what we did was wrong and we should have done sumptin different" than it is to say ... "well we messed up HERE'S WHAT WE SHOULD AHVE DONE" ..
U liberals are great at pointing out the problems and what everyone did wrong .. BUT YOUR HORRIBLE AT SOLVING THE PROBLEMS U crucify everyone for handling improperly ..
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Yeah? Why don't you go buy yourself a lid of heroin and go hang with Derden for awhile...could be cool. If you don't try, you'll never know.
that is one hell of a GREAT ANALOGY .. OUTSTANDING MAN ... what a GENIUS IDEA ... U sure got me there ... cause I have no clue how to respond to that other than to just shrug my shoulders and shake my head and feel sorry for U and how u think ....
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And this EXTREMELY EXTREME stuff...this Jack Bauer scenario...is Hollywood fantasy land...yet people are using it as a scenario palate for their argument. Nuts, bro.
nuts?? whats nuts to me is people like u and how u think (and i use the term "think" very loosely ...
THEY FLEW AIRPLANES into 3 buildings and passengers crashed a 4th heading for somewhere else .. THATS PRETTY EXTREME and is NO JACK BAUER HOLYWOOD FANTASY LAND ... if u think it is .. GO RE-READ DIVOTS POST ...
are u kidding me with that analogy ... U just DISHONORED everyone who was killed on 9/11 with the fantasy land comment and u prolly don't even know it ....
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Whatever, Col. Jessup.
Truth be told, we're the safest nation on the planet, by a landslide, and we face minimal danger. An amputee can count the times we've been attacked on our own soil in the last century. All of our conflicts since WWII have been against pithy opponents we're fairly confident we can roll and conducted under bunk rationale. We're protected by two oceans and we have the smartest and best trained military on the planet.
hmmmmm ... yet we had over 2,500 people killed on a single day due to terrorist attacks .. way to MINIMIZE THAT WITH RHETORIC ..
if that told me one thing .. were NOT SAFE ENOUGH ... but hey .,,, what is the number of deaths in a single day that would catch your attention??
5,000 ... 10,000 ... u gotta have a number that would make u go .. WOW .. THATS NOT RIGHT ... maybe we oughta do sumptin to them and try and stop the next one ... cause appearantly 2,500 does not do the trick for U ..
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After carpet bombing the Middle East for over a decade, a fringe group infused with cash blew up two of our buildings.
actually genius .. it was 3 buildings ... and it would have been a 4th .. I know .. just MERE DETAILS ... but to some folks .. those mere details CAUSED GREAT PAIN ... in those mere details were fathers and mothers that left children w/o there Ma and dad .. and sond and daughters and brothers and sisters ...
maybe if one of them was your brother or wife or child you;d HAVE A CLUE and actually remember how many buildings actually had PLANES FELW INTO THEM ...
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I think this is something we can handle without torture
U also think that were the safest nation on the earth even after having well over 2,500 people killed ont he same day ... shows how good u are at thinking ..
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I consider that insinuation a compliment...I'm not quite there, bro...I'd like to be.
Good for U .. we all need goals .. and if u eve get there .. lets hope someone U care for is NEVER HARMED by a terrorist .. cause that will turn your liberal ass thinking brain into myopic fits ..
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And I noticed you didn't touch my money hypothesis
U mean just like U did not respond to MOST OF MY DIRECT QUESTIONS .. typical liberal ... IGNORE MY QUESTIONS and then wonder what the hey when all of yours aren't answered ...
and quite frankly i did not thnk u needed an answer .. its a DUMB AS QUESTION so i did not bother answering it .. if u really want an answer .. ASK IT AGAIN AND I PROMISE YOU;LL GET ONE .. but does it really need one .. i mean its SO OBVIOUS .
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Realistically...throw them in gen pop. Dade County. New. York. City. See how long it takes until they're dead or singing.
and this would really be OK with u?? .. PLEASE ...
and PS .. i do not want them dead .. not until AFTER I GET ALL THE INFO THEY HAVE OUT OF THEM ..
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If this picture and caption does not scream safe ... I do not know what does .. and this does look like it came from an episode of 24 ... PROBLEM IS .. IT DIDN'T ...  The South Tower Collapses In a 2,000-degree inferno, the tower crumples and crashes to the ground at 9:55 am. Minutes later, at 10:29 am, the north tower collapses. Anyone interested in seeing what else falls under PHIL'S CATEGORY OF "SAFE" ... feel free to click on the link provided .. http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/gallery/
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Da Man Is Hot ..U said sumptin different ... well hows about u give us some clue as to what that might be .... I know its alot harder to say "well what we did was wrong and we should have done sumptin different" than it is to say ... "well we messed up HERE'S WHAT WE SHOULD AHVE DONE"
For one thing,, How about attacking someone that actually attacked us... why just pick a region of the world and blow hell out of it... HOW DUMB was that...
You are clearly a person that thinks we were right for attacking Iraq... why.. Tell me why..
Let me tell you why we attacked Iraq.. Bush was ticked off at Hussien... that's the reason.. They made up the WMD story.. that was proven.. over and over again.. and they NEVER proved that Iraq harbored any of those that were responsible for the attacks of 9/11
So if you think it's smart to put our troops in harms way for a personnel vendetta, then you are a fool.... it's that simple.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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actually genius .. it was 3 buildings ... and it would have been a 4th .. I know .. just MERE DETAILS ... but to some folks .. those mere details CAUSED GREAT PAIN ... in those mere details were fathers and mothers that left children w/o there Ma and dad .. and sond and daughters and brothers and sisters ...
Of course 9/11 was bad...I don't think anybody here disagrees with you. But let's look at the numbers for a minute:
The terrorists attacks on 9/11 killed 2,998 people. On 9/11, heart diesease in america kiilled ~2591 people. Around the world, ~30,272 children under the age of 5 died of starvation that day. It's incomprehensible to me, that one of these statistics has shaped not only our foreign policy, but how each and every American perceives the world, and is still altering our perceptions some 8 years later.
And let's not forget that on 9/12, we had another ~2591 US citizens die of heart diesease, and another ~30,272 children under the age of 5 starved to death... while we all sat around and watching news in order to understand how yesterday could have happened. And then on 9/13 we sat there again, while world leaders shook their fists and promised change. And again and again and again.... 2,789 days later, and we're still living in the aftermath of that one event, and one image permanently imprinted on our common psyche. And I wonder how differently we'd feel now, had the second plane never been caught on camera?
Meanwhile, ~7,226,299 Americans have died of heart disease, and ~84,428,608 children under the age of 5 have starved to death. But there aren't television cameras to imprint those numbers on our psyche. Between 11,000 and 30,000 civilians have been killed in Afghanistan, and more than 650,000 people have died in Iraq. But of course, they aren't us. And I don't really have an answer, just a question: are we focusing on the wrong thing?
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/cardiovascular_disease/deaths.htm
http://www.starvation.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties
~Lyuokdea
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 05/01/09 06:14 PM.
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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Not to get in the middle here, but Congress is who actually authorized going into Iraq. And yes, many congressmen said later "oh, I never read the intell". Well, that's what they get paid to do, isn't it?
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Not to get in the middle here, but Congress is who actually authorized going into Iraq. And yes, many congressmen said later "oh, I never read the intell". Well, that's what they get paid to do, isn't it?
While that is technically true, it doesn't absolve Bush... he put thousands of our troops in harms way because of a vendetta against Hussien...
Congress would have had nothing to debate had bush not pushed for it..
he misled congress so what they would have read at the time wasn't accurate anyway..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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If this picture and caption does not scream safe ... I do not know what does .. and this does look like it came from an episode of 24 ... PROBLEM IS .. IT DIDN'T ...
The South Tower Collapses
In a 2,000-degree inferno, the tower crumples and crashes to the ground at 9:55 am. Minutes later, at 10:29 am, the north tower collapses.
Anyone interested in seeing what else falls under PHIL'S CATEGORY OF "SAFE" ... feel free to click on the link provided ..
http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/gallery/
People don't like to see that anymore because it just riles up the guys with a hairy pair.
Face it Diam, the country is overrun by the Caspar Milquetoast crowd.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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And anyone that disagrees with you and your take on things is Casper Milquetoast...
That kinda thinking is exactly why the Republican party is where it is today... thinking like that has chased millions from the party.. me included..
There isn't much tread on the tire left Peen.. it's wearing very thin...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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And anyone that disagrees with you and your take on things is Casper Milquetoast...
That kinda thinking is exactly why the Republican party is where it is today... thinking like that has chased millions from the party.. me included..
There isn't much tread on the tire left Peen.. it's wearing very thin...
I don't really care about the politics of things....there is lot's of tread on this tire.
I am just afraid that when it comes the time for men to be men....and it's coming...we won't have enough men left.
Like I said a few days ago....to much wishbone and not enough backbone.
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If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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The whole Guiliani thing where you just yell '9/11' over and over is played out.
After those attacks, we invaded Afghanistan...historically one of the last places you want to invade. Hell, we purposely drew the Soviets in to fight them because we wanted to give them their own Vietnam. And we ran in there and carpet bombed the place after suffering an attack in which the funds and foot soldiers came out of Saudi Arabia.
We couldn't possibly screw with our strategic base and oil buddies, so we started shouting off about the Taliban and put ourselves into a hellish war that doesn't come close to solving the problem. And we follow that up by invading another country that has even less to do with anything. So now we're fighting angered nationalists on two fronts, on top of trying to dismantle underground sects that are still being bankrolled by Saudis. Oh, and we emboldened Iran in the process.
But, y'know, put up pictures of burning buildings and talk about being 'men'...maybe that will make the problems we continue to toss onto the top of the heap go away.
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683 |
NRTU:
I don't really want to discus politics here at this level, but I think it's important to raise a few points. The Geneva convention (our current "rules of war") addresses "uniformed combatants". As a former soldier who served in the middle east, what we are facing now is not a force of "uniformed combatants". They are not even truly "gorillas". They hide among their own civilian population as a strategy, and count on our ethics to protect them. They sequester in hospitals and schools. We cannot fathom their thought process, it is completely foreign to us. Frankly, I hope we never can understand them. The conventions of war SPECIFICALLY excluded combatants such as this from their protections. There was a reason for that. No soldier wants to harm civilians. Had any of you had to walk down a street, knowing your enemy was dressed like a civilian, and probably hiding behind their neighbors child, you would understand why Guantanamo was necessary.
And for anyone who wishes to compare any of this to Viet Nam, .... Well, I can't say what I really feel. The S. Vietnamese were a beutiful people with a culture that is now dead. We follwed the rules and could have won despite that. The communists did not and our people and government apparently forgot what it's like to need help to be free. (think what the French did for us in the revolutionary war, and what would have happened if they were not there for us)
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,433
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,433 |
Great post!  We failed the S Vietnamese because of the fems in Washington and San Francisco.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Quote:
For one thing,, How about attacking someone that actually attacked us... why just pick a region of the world and blow hell out of it... HOW DUMB was that...
Well seeing as how thats where the folks that attacked us were for the most part .. I for one think it was about the ONLY LOGICAL thing to do ..
do U think we should have atttacked France or italy?? ... I mean who do U think we should have attacked ..
and if u think we just RANDOMLY picked the places we bombed .. you know even less about this than U did about Gitmo .. ALOT OF TIME AND INFO GATHERING WENT INTO WHAT WE DID ...
the one thing u do well is RUN YOUR MOUTH BOUT THINGS U KNOW NOTHING ABOUT BUT WHAT THE HEADLINES SAY ... seriously .. do u have any clue what prep work we did on this ,,,, ANY CLUE WHAT SO EVER ..
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You are clearly a person that thinks we were right for attacking Iraq... why.. Tell me why..
where did i say or even hint at that ... show me .. U CAN'T ... your just upset and acting like a two year old as usual ...
I have no idea weather we were right or wrong in "attacking" Iraq .. I have no probs with it .. NONE WHAT SO EVER ...
why?? .. many reasons .. first and foremost .. they agreed to let UN inspectors in .. then they REFUSED TO LET THEM IN .. we said if u did not .. we would "ATTACK" U .. and then said .. NO .. WE WILL NOT LET THEM IN ..
so we went in .. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT?? ..
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So if you think it's smart to put our troops in harms way for a personnel vendetta,
What .. did Sadam sleep with Barbara or sumptin .. a personal vendetta .. *LOL* ..
Okie Dokie Smokie ..
we made up the wmd info .. *LOL* .. your a real buet dude ...
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
what are u trying to say here Lyk .. I have no clue what your point is here .. are u trying to say theres some correlation between 9/11 and heart disease?? .. i do not see any relevance here other than the fact that people and children end up dead in all your scenarios ...
are u suggesting we should start a wat on pigs, cows and tobbaco farms?? ..
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Quote:
The whole Guiliani thing where you just yell '9/11' over and over is played out.
I feel very sorry for U dude .. very very sorry ... the fact u DISHONOR that day and think it is being used as some ploy makes me feel nuttin but saddnes for U ..
its unfortunate that U can not show the same sadness and defend the people that died that day as u do the people who did it to them ...
I'm done responding to U .. I'll just pity U and your kind from afar ...
It was fun while it lasted .. but people like u make me sad to be an American ..
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
I here U Peenie .. theres lots of namby pambies out there that enjoy the hell out of everything this country provides for them ... but for some reason they feel there is no price attached to it .. they think freedom and this standard of living is a god given right and has no price ..
I'd bet my bottom dollar that Phil and Da Man Is Hot were never in the military and served over seas ... cause if they did .. they'd have a better sense of reality ..
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