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which described a five-point scale in which "Ones" are respondents who said 9/11 was "totally unjustified" and "Fives" those who said the attacks were "completely justified."
Good, they did put that in there,, Thanks Dave...
Well, ok, the poll stands more credible than it did before.,,
In the end, if this is true, I'm not exactly sure what we could do about it except have more kids than the worlds Muslim population does  Practice practice practice...... oh how I love to practice 
Last edited by Damanshot; 05/04/09 01:56 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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People will abhor your statement. I will simply disagree with it.
No violence of that magnitude is justified.
I think that the terms you used to describe our nation's mindset are fairly spot on...doesn't mean you blow them up. The people who died that days weren't masterminds plotting to oppress the working class...they were people who were just trying to live their lives.
Tyler, I find that people are generally good...it's when they get caught up in the machine that they falter.
"I love and treasure individuals as I meet them; I loathe and despise the groups they identify with and belong to." (Carlin)
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I find that people are generally good...it's when they get caught up in the machine that they falter.
Very good way of putting it. Mob rule.
Derden: nothing can justify 9-11. Nothing.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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1st String
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Sometimes I think that there is a possibility that 9/11 was justified.
Usually this is because I think that America is a terribly greedy and corrupt nation. And if these people who blew up our buildings were acting in the interest of god---striking against those whose lives and values are pretty much controlled by money. Then I think that religion trumps dollar bills and big government.
It is sad that these people died---but if there is a possibility that god let this happen to punish the corrupt---which America certainly is.
Sometimes I view this event this way. And it stems from the helplessness I feel with respect towards the wealthy and their influence in government.
I feel like America is ruled by money---and money undermines freedom and the voting process. And I believe that majority of Americans who act as though they submit to the lord are fools who are more in line with dollar bills than gods way.
Basically, this is a nation of hypocrites, and it seeks to exploit the poor and working class. And the government and wealthy work to control the rest of the population. And if you don't do what they want you to do---then you become one of the millions who are incarcerated. America is a prison state, and it is master of manipulation and exploitation.
But then---after thinking all this----I will try to dismiss it as pure speculation. And I will tell myself that this isn't the way America is supposed to be.
I know there is nothing people can do anymore. We are subjects to an almighty government who will find ways to destroy anyone who wants to live independently from government.
end of rant.
end of hope.
sigh, another day picking DERDEN's brain.
depression.
depression.
depression.
I disagree, because you described EVERY country on this planet. Every country has greed. Look at Iran, they have wealth from oil, yet their people starve worse than Americans. Look in Africa, people are murdered, tortured, and enslaved, etc... all for the money to be had from diamonds. Look around, America is not the only country that has these probelms. Every country has these problems. If you think 9/11 was justifiable based off those reasons, than it is justifiable that America go drop bombs on every country that opposes are way of life.
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Its just kind of a guilt thing, and a gut-feeling about our nation and pretty much every nation in relation to religious principles.
I just feel like a lot of governments and such are really corrupt and will be punished by the almighty (if he/she/it does exist).
I am not saying I wanted these people to die---just saying that if this was some kind of punishment brought on by the hand of god---I could certainly see his fury.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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All Pro
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Ah, yes. I believe some stated that this was punishment from God for acceptance of homosexuality in the U.S. This all makes sense when viewed from the prism of a vengeful God. Oppresive government, or tolerance of others.  I am glad that no one in your life was impacted by this catastrophe. You know, like the cleaning crew making minimum wage, the busboys in the restaurants, the firefighters that responded to save lives, etc. All the people that should have been punished.
Thomas - The Tank Engine
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I do not consider those questions to be sufficient to identify a radical. I define a radical as a Muslim who would be willing to kill another person based solely on that individuals religious beliefs.
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I would define it as someone willing to kill themselves or others as part of their own religious beliefs.
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It is Man's use and iterpretation of it that makes it Good or Bad. It, in and of itself, is neutral ...
In order for a religion to be neutral, it would have to be devoid of any imperative statements. As I am sure you know, the Bible is filled with imperatives that make neutrality an impossibility. For example, the Hebrews are repeatedly ordered by their god to invade neighboring territories and wipe out its inhabitants to the last child. I fail to see what is neutral about that. I will not assume your religious beliefs, Purp, but if a Christian believes in the truthfulness of the Bible, then they must recognize that what is recorded in the Old Testament are imperatives sent straight from God's mouth to the Hebrew's ears and then recorded after the fact. I fail to see how you can classify a command by the Hebrew god as neutral, the very same god who supposedly gave us the New Testament, as well.
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I still asert that it is neither and it is only Man's use/misuse of it that is Good or Bad. Much like a gun: In it's Good form, it allows you to kill food for you to survive. In it's bad form, it allows you to murder. But it does neither without you and it is the Free Will of Man and Man's Ambitions and Desires that determines which one it becomes.
I believe this is a false analogy. When considering a gun and a religion, there are some important distinctions that must be made. First, a gun is an inanimate object, a tool in the truest sense of the word. Religion, on the other hand, is essentially inmaterial, manifesting itself in material things such as institutions and ceremonial objects. You are correct in your initial claim that both a gun and a religion can be used for good or bad purposes. However, there is a second criterion by which we can judge a religion and by which a gun cannot be analysized. That is, a religion is founded on sacred scriptures that give commands and set down imperatives for the believer to follow. We have already established that an imperative is not neutral, therefore, the individual is not necessary to make the religion good or bad. The imperative exists independent of the individual, and if the imperative can be proven to be evil, then the entire religious system can be unraveled from that point. I have already alluded to the possibility of such evil imperatives existing in the Old Testament.
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I would define it as someone willing to kill themselves or others as part of their own religious beliefs.
I can agree with that assessment, as well. If that were the question in the Gallop poll, I am certain they would not get 7% in the affirmative, let alone 36%.
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but if a Christian believes in the truthfulness of the Bible, then they must recognize that what is recorded in the Old Testament are imperatives sent straight from God's mouth to the Hebrew's ears and then recorded after the fact. I fail to see how you can classify a command by the Hebrew god as neutral, the very same god who supposedly gave us the New Testament, as well.
But it still came from man.
God to man, man to paper. Written by man and therefore subject to it's infallibility.
And Purp also speaks of the interpretation...the book could've been written by God himself, but it's what the man's brain interprets as he reads.
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I do not consider those questions to be sufficient to identify a radical. I define a radical as a Muslim who would be willing to kill another person based solely on that individuals religious beliefs.
That's ridiculous ... like blaming the rape victim for dressing "too provocatively". What would their motive be for killing an atheist, or an agnostic? Yet, I suspect some people of those beliefs (or lack thereof) were killed on 9-11 too. The truth is that religion of the victims was not the cause of the 9-11 attacks; the culture of death and Islamic domination, as defined and endorsed by Wahhabist, Radical, Sharia, Islamist (take your pick) Muslims was. How else to describe a person who would say that Americans were either "completely" or "largely" responsible for the attacks. Note that I left out those who said we were "somewhat" responsible ... I happen to think they are radical, but I can see how it might be arguable or perceived by someone who has a negative point of view towards us.
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Quote:
Quote:
but if a Christian believes in the truthfulness of the Bible, then they must recognize that what is recorded in the Old Testament are imperatives sent straight from God's mouth to the Hebrew's ears and then recorded after the fact. I fail to see how you can classify a command by the Hebrew god as neutral, the very same god who supposedly gave us the New Testament, as well.
But it still came from man.
God to man, man to paper. Written by man and therefore subject to it's infallibility.
And Purp also speaks of the interpretation...the book could've been written by God himself, but it's what the man's brain interprets as he reads.
I directed that section specifically toward someone who is a Christian. I agree with you that it is a human construct. And yes, much of the Bible is open to interpretation. (I agree with you and Purp on almost everything.) However, I deviate from Purp when he says the book is exclusively a product of interpretation and, therefore, neutral. As I have said, imperatives and commands are active by their very nature. For example, when the Bible says God told the Hebrews to invade a territory to cleanse the land, this is an active command generated by God's holy nature. These are not ambiguous verses that require interpretation. God said kill, and the Hebrews did just that. (Of course, I do not really believe a supernatural being actually told them to do it. They just used a god as an excuse to invade their neighbors. However, the fact remains that the imperative has been set down in the holy scriptures and incorporated into the religion.)
And of course, there is no need to dwell only on the negative aspects of the Christian religion. The New Testament is full of imperatives that nonbelievers would consider morally good. For example, Jesus' Sermon on the Mount gives several imperatives for the believer. There may be room for discussion of what Jesus meant when he used the term "meek" but the command to be meek exists, nonetheless, and the Christian is to follow through on it.
So, while I agree that there is room for interpretation on many issues of scripture and the religion built upon it, it cannot be neutral because the believer is instructed in an a priori sense to take specific actions--actions that are unambiguous and beyond confusion.
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I do not consider those questions to be sufficient to identify a radical. I define a radical as a Muslim who would be willing to kill another person based solely on that individuals religious beliefs.
That's ridiculous ... like blaming the rape victim for dressing "too provocatively". What would their motive be for killing an atheist, or an agnostic? Yet, I suspect some people of those beliefs (or lack thereof) were killed on 9-11 too. The truth is that religion of the victims was not the cause of the 9-11 attacks; the culture of death and Islamic domination, as defined and endorsed by Wahhabist, Radical, Sharia, Islamist (take your pick) Muslims was. How else to describe a person who would say that Americans were either "completely" or "largely" responsible for the attacks. Note that I left out those who said we were "somewhat" responsible ... I happen to think they are radical, but I can see how it might be arguable or perceived by someone who has a negative point of view towards us.
Sorry, Dave. I can see that the way I worded that caused my meaning to be obscured. What I meant to say was that I think a radical Muslim is someone who, because of a belief in militant Islam, would kill another person no matter what that person's belief system may be.
I hope that makes more sense. I am in no way attempting to justify what a radical Muslim does. I am only attempting to establish a context for that catagorization
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It's interesting to see the Muslims in my neighborhood shun integrating into American society, but embrace the concept of Welfare, WIC, Food Stamps and every thing our tax dollars pay for.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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You needed to finish your thought/sentence... Of course, I do not really believe a supernatural being actually told them to do it. They just used a god as an excuse to invade their neighbors. However, the fact remains that the imperative has been set down in the holy scriptures and incorporated into the religion by Man . Much better 
Browns is the Browns
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Thanks. 
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Didn't Christianity start out like this 2000 years ago?
I could care less what someone's religion is, so I get some Muslim holiday off instead of Christmas in 100 years. As long as they are people, and are respectful to me and my life I don't care what they do.
This video is obviously agenda based, and preying (no pun intended) on the fear that Muslims are all radicals/terrorists.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Again...it isn't the religion that bothers me. It dovetails with Purples mentioning how Man has influenced religion and turned it in to a political force.
Islam is politics more than any other religion...join or die really.
That doesn't bother you??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Again...it isn't the religion that bothers me. It dovetails with Purples mentioning how Man has influenced religion and turned it in to a political force.
Islam is politics more than any other religion...join or die really.
That doesn't bother you??
No, because I had a good friend in HS that was Muslim, and never once pushed his religion on me, threatened me to join or die, or even mentioned it unless he was asked.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Again...it isn't the religion that bothers me. It dovetails with Purples mentioning how Man has influenced religion and turned it in to a political force.
Islam is politics more than any other religion...join or die really.
That doesn't bother you??
No, because I had a good friend in HS that was Muslim, and never once pushed his religion on me, threatened me to join or die, or even mentioned it unless he was asked.
Don't you know that he was just pretending? He was waiting for an order from his cell leader to slit your throat. Haven't you ever watched 24? . . . . 
Seriously, I wish there was a larger Muslim population in America so that people could see that they are not all terrorists. Most of them are good people who just want to live, like most other human beings.
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Seriously, I wish there was a larger Muslim population in America so that people could see that they are not all terrorists. Most of them are good people who just want to live, like most other human beings.
Pretty much agreed. The percentage of "good" muslims is probably equal to that of "good" christians.
However, you need to look quite a bit to find the "good" muslims that are brave enough to speak out about the extremist muslims. Why is that?
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I don't know. Maybe its because so many live in Muslim countries, and it would not be practical to do so? As you can tell, I tend to believe that most people are the same in a humanist sense. Most people want to live in peace, but another common characteristic in the human race is the tendency to be complacent in situations where making oneself conspicuous is not a necessity. I think media coverage of the Muslim world influences us to believe that it is pure hell over there. I think it is probably more like living in America in terms of the violence that takes place (excluding warzones). Alot of people die all over the world, but it is a small proportion in comparison to the whole. I think it is wrong to destroy a fetus, but I don't go protest on the weekends. I could, but I am too concerned with other things and that is not a major issue in my life, even though it probably should be. Perhaps most "good" Muslims feel the same way I do and share my complacency about things that are easier to ignore.
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Again...it isn't the religion that bothers me. It dovetails with Purples mentioning how Man has influenced religion and turned it in to a political force.
Islam is politics more than any other religion...join or die really.
That doesn't bother you??
Is it required by law, under penalty of death, to be a Muslim in any of the Muslim nations?
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However, you need to look quite a bit to find the "good" muslims that are brave enough to speak out about the extremist muslims. Why is that?
Because the radicals will cut off your head if you speak up.
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Quote:
Quote:
Again...it isn't the religion that bothers me. It dovetails with Purples mentioning how Man has influenced religion and turned it in to a political force.
Islam is politics more than any other religion...join or die really.
That doesn't bother you??
Is it required by law, under penalty of death, to be a Muslim in any of the Muslim nations?
Probably not...they just attack you.....move to Afghanistan and see what they think.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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You should read the book "Lone Survivor" by Marcus Lattrell(sp?) a Navy Seal injured in Afghanistan. It gives a pretty detailed account of what happened, and how even he learned that not all Afghanis are bad or evil, and that most are good people being bullied by the Taliban and Al Queda.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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It is on my read list....plan on a book buying mission this weekend.
No doubt not every person is radical.....just the ones who make the decisions.
So, either we liberate them from that or we just throw them all in the same pot....me....I am at the tossing out point.
It's like I said some time back, it isn't the religion or the practitioners of the religion, it's the way the religion has morphed in to a political entity.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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You should read the book "Lone Survivor" by Marcus Lattrell(sp?) a Navy Seal injured in Afghanistan. It gives a pretty detailed account of what happened, and how even he learned that not all Afghanis are bad or evil, and that most are good people being bullied by the Taliban and Al Queda.
As with anything, you don't need all to be bad, you just need the ones that are good to not stand up to the ones that are bad. As long as that happens, it is functionally the same as them all being bad.
Browns is the Browns
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You do a much better job in your replies as I have given up on the subject.
What I am about to say isn't what I hope, or what I want to happen. It is simply a philosophical opinion with which I don't think many will admit to agreeing with:
If we woke up in the morning and every Muslim in the world had died, the world would be a better place.
It's a shame the "small" minority of one religion has shaped this posters opinion as such.
Or, possibly as you say, maybe it's a shame the vast majority of the followers lack of action has caused this posters opinion to be formed as such.
At any rate, it is what it is.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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If we woke up in the morning and every Muslim in the world had died, the world would be a better place.
And Jews, too!
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If we woke up in the morning and every Muslim in the world had died, the world would be a better place.
It almost sounds as if you hate writing that, and if that's the case, I agree.. Sadly, it is what it is.
I keep wondering if those of any religion or faith that follow a more moderate path would police thier own, would the world be a better place?
We have extremists in America as well, KKK, Skinheads etc.. and while they are free to say what they want, they aren't allowed to harm those that don't agree with them. And those that disagree with them aren't permitted to harm them either. It happens, but it's punished when it's found and proven.
I gotta wonder what would happen if the less radical arm of the Muslim faith would accept the task of controlling thier own.
And Phil, I didn't get you meaning about the Jews...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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If we woke up in the morning and every Muslim in the world had died, the world would be a better place.
It almost sounds as if you hate writing that, and if that's the case, I agree.. Sadly, it is what it is.
I keep wondering if those of any religion or faith that follow a more moderate path would police thier own, would the world be a better place?
We have extremists in America as well, KKK, Skinheads etc.. and while they are free to say what they want, they aren't allowed to harm those that don't agree with them. And those that disagree with them aren't permitted to harm them either. It happens, but it's punished when it's found and proven.
I gotta wonder what would happen if the less radical arm of the Muslim faith would accept the task of controlling thier own.
And Phil, I didn't get you meaning about the Jews...
What your describing, is radicals being judged by the law. The problem is that where the most radical Muslim groups are, the governments don't care or as guilty as the groups themselves. And in many cases, standing up against them is basically a death sentence to the opponent.
When we talk about radical Muslims, we tend to think the worst. There is estimated to be 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. I would bet a very small percentage of that is radicals.
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The demographics of radical Islam
By Spengler
General staffs before World War I began war planning with demographic tables, calculating how many men of military age they might feed to the machine guns. France preferred an early war because its stagnant population would not produce enough soldiers a generation hence to fight Germany. Only Israel’s general staff looks at demographic tables today, to draw prospective boundaries that will enclose a future Jewish majority.
Demographics still provide vital strategic information, albeit in quite a different fashion. Today’s Islamists think like the French general staff in 1914. Islam has one generation in which to establish a global theocracy before hitting a demographic barrier. Islam has enough young men - the pool of unemployed Arabs is expected to reach 25 million by 2010 - to fight a war during the next 30 years. Because of mass migration to Western Europe, the worst of the war might be fought on European soil.
Although the Muslim birth rate today is the world’s second highest (after sub-Saharan Africa), it is falling faster than the birth rate of any other culture. By 2050, according to the latest UN projections, the population growth rate of the Muslim world will converge on that of the United States (although it will be much higher than Europe's or China's).
Falling fertility measures the growing influence of modernity upon the Muslim world. Literacy rates, especially female literacy, best explain the difference between the very high fertility rates of pre-modern society and the moderate fertility rates of industrial countries, as I showed in a recent study (Death by secularism: The statistical evidence, August 1, 2005).
This is clearly the case in the Muslim world where the lowest rates of adult literacy correspond to the highest population growth rate. Literacy alone explains 58% of the variation in birth rates among Muslim countries.
Urbanization, literacy, and openness to the modern world ultimately will suppress the Muslim womb, in the absence of radical measures. In a new volume of essays on modern Islamic thought, the Islamists Suha Taji-Farouki and Basheer M Nafi observe, “Rather than being a development within cultural traditions that is internally generated, 20th century Islamic thought is constitutively responsive; it is substantially a reaction to extrinsic challenges.” [1] The challenge stems from the transformation of Muslim life:
In the Middle East of 1900, for example, less than 10% of the inhabitants were city dwellers; by 1980, 47% were urban. In 1800, Cairo had a population of 250,000, rising to 600,000 by the beginning of the 20th century. The unprecedented influx of immigrants from rural areas brought the population of Cairo to almost 8 million by 1980. Massive urbanization altered patterns of living, of housing and architecture, of the human relation with space and land, of marketing, employment, and consumption, and the very structure of family and social hierarchy. [2]
The sharp fall in the Muslim population growth rate expresses the extreme fragility of traditional society. Translated into the Islamist vocabulary (citing again Taji-Farouki and Nafi), this means that:
A Muslim sense of vulnerability and outrage is further exacerbated by the seemingly unstoppable encroachment of American popular culture and modes of consumerism and the transparent hypocrisy of the American rhetoric of universal rights and liberties. It is also stoked by Western ambivalence towards economic disparities in the world. [3]
Rapid urbanization, to be sure, produced growing pains in every case on record. Britain transported its displaced population to America and then to Australia, including the “clearing” of entire Scots villages forced onto ships for Canada. But Britain’s urbanization coincided with rapid economic growth and improving living standards. The Arab world’s urbanization has only created a stagnant pool of urban poor. As the London Economist summarized in the United Nations Arab Development Report for 2002:
One in five Arabs still live on less than $2 a day. And over the past 20 years growth in income per head, at an annual rate of .5%, was lower than anywhere else in the world except sub-Saharan Africa. At this rate, says the report, it will take the average Arab 140 years to double his income, a target that some regions are set to reach in less than 10 years. Stagnant growth, together with a fast-rising population, means vanishing jobs. About 12 million people, or 15% of the labor force, are already unemployed, and on present trends the number could rise to 25 million by 2010. [4]
Excluding Indonesia, the Muslim’s world literacy rate stands at only 53%, against 81% for China; Arab literacy is only 50%. Only 1% of the population owns a personal computer. It is delusional to believe that the Arab world, which now exports (net of oil) as much as Finland, might come to compete with China, India and the rest of Asia in the global market for goods and services.
Just as the Muslim population peaks, the one bounty that nature has bestowed upon the Arabs, namely oil, will begin to diminish. According to the US Department of Energy, conventional oil production will peak just before 2050 at the present 2% rate of production growth.
In short, the Muslim world half a century from now can expect the short end of the stick from the modern world. It has generated only two great surpluses, namely people and oil. By the middle of the century both of these will have begun to dwindle. But at the moment it has 25 million idle young men. No leader can remain in power who does not give them a destination to march to.
By no means does that imply that all of these 25 million will become suicide bombers, but a great many of them are likely to emigrate to Europe, including Eastern Europe, where populations are stagnant and about to decline. A Muslim takeover of Western Europe surely is a possible outcome.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/GH23Aa01.html
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Legend
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OP
Legend
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Quote:
It almost sounds as if you hate writing that, and if that's the case, I agree.. Sadly, it is what it is.
Glad you picked up on that rather than Phil's impression it was a bigoted comment or one formed with some sort of phobia.
I didn't like writing that.....heck, I don't even like thinking it to be honest, but again....it is what it is. (shrug)
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Quote:
Glad you picked up on that rather than Phil's impression it was a bigoted comment or one formed with some sort of phobia.
The impression I got was a very bright man saying something he knew full well was shortsighted and stupid.
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Legend
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Legend
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Interesting article....thanks for posting. No doubt demographic tables are used. Going back maybe 15 years I read a bit as it related to China. With the selective culling of females as practiced in China, the forecast was for China to have millions of males without equal numbers of women as a possible mate....and it is like that today...there just aren't enough females. The gist of the article was the west had to work hard at developing China and providing all these males something productive to do or they would just become a land Army that would have serious implications over the globe. I don't know who's plan it was, but I think much of what we see going on in China today is a result of that war planning. Right now millions of men in China have no real hope of attracting a wife as the women have 100 men to choose from(maybe 1000), so the men are now competing by means of jobs and accomplishment to attract their spouse. If they weren't doing that, they would be carrying guns looking for lands to conquer. So....if any of you gals are feeling a bit hard up in your current situation, head to China
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Legend
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Legend
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No thanks, sounds like Hell to me. 
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
The gist of the article was the west had to work hard at developing China and providing all these males something productive to do or they would just become a land Army that would have serious implications over the globe.
Also, after the '89 riots the Chinese decided that the people needed a distraction.
I think both governments were happy to see the infusion of business.
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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What I am about to say isn't what I hope, or what I want to happen. It is simply a philosophical opinion with which I don't think many will admit to agreeing with:
If we woke up in the morning and every black person in the world had died, the world would be a better place.
It's a shame the "small" minority of one race has shaped this posters opinion as such.
Or, possibly as you say, maybe it's a shame the lack of action of the vast majority of the race has caused this posters opinion to be formed as such.
At any rate, it is what it
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Legend
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Legend
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 not even sure where race/skin color had to do with religious affiliation.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum I found this intersting- Muslim
Demographics
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