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Obama's cost for those 1 million cars equals about a half month's cost Bush's Iraq War. Not that I read up on Obama's plan and have any opinion of it, I just think you have a goofy concept of math.
No, it's not goofy math. It's adding to spending. When you're in a whole, do you keep digging? We shouldn't be creating new "welfare" programs when we are beyond broke already, should we?
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Obama's cost for those 1 million cars equals about a half month's cost Bush's Iraq War. Not that I read up on Obama's plan and have any opinion of it, I just think you have a goofy concept of math.
For me it's not about the math.. or the taxes... or even the debt. I have a fundamental problem with social engineering through the tax code. Why should the government give me $4,500 because I'll chose to drive one kind of car over another? For the same reason they charge huge taxes on smokes and liquor... because they want you to behave a certain way and the best way they can find to change your individual behavior is to tax you for doing stuff they don't want and reward you with tax breaks for doing stuff they do want... So you can exercise your civil liberties and smoke and drink and drive an SUV, but it's going to cost you... 
yebat' Putin
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ever seen shoes for 3 bucks? how about 12? maybe if your lucky on clearance you might pay 20 bucks...
the bottom line is we can't compete with foreign countries for what they produce for.....and the savings aren't getting passed onto us, the consumer....the profits are going to the corporations....
3 bucks for shoes.....2 dollar tariff....thats 5 bucks...they sell these shoes for 30-40 bucks....for a huge profit....
Don't take this as me arguing with you or disagreeing with you or anything else negative - it isn't intended that way. I just have some experience with this and want to explain it. Its not exactly, but close.
The $3 is the invoiced price from the factory - $3 isn't as low as you might think - consider Payless and other low cost retailers, then the rest below making up the difference. (I used larger than normal margins to get the shoe into the 30-40 dollar range you suggested)
3 dollars is factory cost, 2 dollar tarrif, add in freight charges, add in warehousing costs, add in Importer of Record fees (if the company does not import themselves) and I'm sure other charges I'm forgetting - and that is just getting the shoe into the country. So, you're up to probably 7.50 per shoe. At that point, the company who had the factory build the shoe then wholesales the shoe to retailers - say a 50% margin bringing the price up to $15 wholesale cost. That 7.50 helps pays all bills for that company, and yes, the rest is profit. Then the retailer also marks up the shoe (lets use 50% margin again) so they can pay their bills, and yes profit - $30 shoe to the consumer.
As per profits - take a look at the income statements of some of a couple predominantly footwear companies (one large, one medium, one small) in the US. I'd add adidas, but they are a German company and their income statement is not available on Yahoo finance - and I didn't feel like finding it (assuming it is public information).
1) Nike in their last fiscal year ending in May 2008 had 18.6 billion in total revenue. Remove 10.2 billion in the cost of revenue and 5.9 billion in SG&A expenses, remove taxes of 600 million, and you have a net income of 1.8 billion (all numbers rounded), and net income = 10% of revenues, which is applicable to common shares. (That would be $3 for the $30 shoe)
2) Skechers in their last fiscal year ending in December 2008 had 1.4 billion in total revenue. Remove 800 million in the cost of revenue and 500 million in SG&A expenses, remove taxes, etc... , and you have a net income of 55 million (all numbers rounded), and net income = 4% of revenues, which is applicable to common shares.(That would be $1.20 for the $30 shoe)
3) Crocs in their last fiscal year ending in December 2008 had 721 million in total revenue. Remove 480 million in the cost of revenue and 369 million in SG&A expenses, remove taxes, etc... , and you have a net loss of 185 million (all numbers rounded).
Profit is not as much as you'd think, especially after dividends to shareholders.
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i would rather buy US made shoes, and see a US worker get 18 bucks an hour making shoes, and the corporation make 5-6 bucks a pair instead of 25-35 bucks a pair....
Here's how this would work - . First the factory would have to import the materials from Asia or South America, then have an $18/hour worker make the shoe. Lets just say it only costs double to produce that shoe - so $6 per shoe. Then the factory needs to make profit, we'll use 50% again, just for consistency, meaning the corporation buys it for $12. Then the shoe company has a 50% margin as mentioned above - the shoe is now $24 wholesale cost. The retailer again has a 50% margin, selling the shoe to the end consumer for $48. Idential shoes 60% higher in cost to the end consumer.
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...When you're in a whole, do you keep digging?
nope, when I'm in a WHOLE I figure that's all, it's complete, finished. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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nice post...thats a great explanation of the whole process...
i just cannot get over the fact that something can't be produced here...
when you show the American example as 60% higher, i really think that is the number that the companies try and reach...
in other words....American company A is selling shoes for $48 bucks...using American workers...i'll even go with your point of importing the materials...
now they get the option of making the whole product overseas...
they are not instantly lowering there price to $30 bucks...they might go a few dollars lower to undercut the other American shoe makers.....then those companies follow suit to stay competitive...
competition might bring prices down for certain shoes, but not most...
just bought my daughter base-ball cleats...had a few on clearance for 20 bucks....a few shoes were 34...the rest were 50-90 bucks...
so some of those shoes are ridiculously marked up...and thats all profit...now some might be marketing costs for endorsements, but its still more profit for the companies...
maybe we can't produce a shoe that cheap...but neither can foreigners if they played by our rules....i just think that Americans's should support Americans...prices might be alittle higher...but so would the jobs and wages required to make the stuff...the autoworker buys shoes....the shoemaker buys a car...ect...
it used to be that if you worked hard, you could have a decent standard of living....now imo its getting harder and harder to make a decent wage...
it just doesn't sit right with me...we've given the companies an option to make more profit, and they took it....and you can rest assure that as little savings as possible will be passed on to the consumer...
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Poor Arch, he needs a whole lotta love.
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Geez grumpy I said "WHAT IF" Did I just throw figures out there..... yep sure did. Why did I.... to get some discussion going on just how much it has cost or is going to cost this country if jobs keep getting sent over seas, and IMO it's PLENTY.
well DUH ... its expensive as hell ... what needs to be discussed about that?? .. this tax crap has VERY LITTLE to dowith why those jobs are going overseas .. VERY VERY LITTLE ...
if I thought that lowering corporate taxes would help keep jobs here .. I'd be all for it .. but just like changing our tax codes and getting rid of the so called loopholes isn't going to all of a sudden make the big corp's pay more cutting the taxes IN THIS CASE IS NOT THE MAGID WAND EITHER ..
LABOR COSTS is clearly the driving force here ... and #2 is NOT EVEN CLOSE ..
so seriously what is there to discuss .. cutting taxes would save such a small amount of jobs it prolly isn't even calcuable ...
U mentioned NAFTA .. and others are talking about tarrifs both coming and going .. THATS WHAT BROUGHT LABOR INTO THE EQUASION .. and really tipped the tables against us ... before that there were tarrifs going both ways from both sides ... so it "evened" out .. we pretty much produced and sold here .. and they did the same ..
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This country was not built on the few guys making big bucks. It was built on all the little guys making smaller amounts.
Well actually when it comes to what were talking about here .. BIG BUSINESS AND CORPS. .. not the small businesses .. it was built on a few making a ton with a bunch making alot less ..
The Fords, ... the Kennedy's and the Rockefellars are pretty damm rich .. *shrugs* .. go look at business owners compared to employees .. IT ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY .. why do u think labor unions got so big and strong and powerful .. cause the owners were sharing properly .. 
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For every guy out there making 100,000 a year, there are 7 or eight who get buy on 20 to 30,000 a year, and it's those types of jobs we are losing in this country, and at what cost?
I would agree with that ... all of it ... well actually I believe there are like 15 - 20 folks making 20 - 30k a year for everyone making 6 figures .. but thats neither here nor there .. we agree on the premise ..
we also agree the cost is very high for the country .. where we disagree is what the solution is .. lowering corporate taxes is not the solution to losing jobs over seas .. lowering corp. taxes would be a good thing IMO .. and it would create jobs here .. but it would not stop jobs from going over seas and would not bring any over there back ..
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Those folks are defaulting on mortgages, not spending money, running up medical bills that are unpaid (driving up medical care for the rest of us) collecting unemployment, getting food stamps, etc, etc, etc I don't think anybody in this country can even calculate how much money we have lost since NAFTA went into effect, or since every telephone operator, or customer service person we talk to can't even speak english.
Oh I bet theres some geeky ass economist out there that can ... my guess is the morons that wrote the article on the reccesion being over could do it .. 
I think we agree that lowering corp. taxes would be good bro .. i just do not believe they would stop the loss of jobs over seas .. the main one there would be two fold ..
1. LOWER LABOR COSTS IN THIS COUNTRY ..
2. invest in new technolgy for our plants .. and build new ones for the manufacturing sectors we've lost ..
3. forget taxing the corps. more .. if your going to meddle and want to make corp's do things .. just come out and do it .. make the cost of doing business out of the country for goods and services being utilized for people in this country so damm high it is not worth it ..
slap tarrifs on every customer service call that eminates from this country and is answered somewhere else ...
do the same with goods produced in other countries .. and i could care what flag the producing company is flying above there corp. HQ's .. if its produced elsewhere .. WHACK EM ..
I do not agree with my #3 .. but damm it, if your going to do it .. DO IT RIGHT AND MAKE IT AFFECTIVE ....
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Its not a perfect explanation, but it is pretty close.
The $30 versus $48 would be a very simple tennis shoe - something like a Chuck Taylor - rubber sole, canvas upper. Add midsole, airbags, gel, springs, stabilization, different treads, cut weight, add support, add leather, use less toxic glues, etc... all add up pretty fast. You'd really be amazed at the technology of a shoe. That being said, it is a wonderful goal for sure, but reaching it will be difficult.
There are probably things that companies, labor, and the government can do to be able to manufacture quality and competitively priced locally made products (shoes in this case). Smarter people than I need to come up with them, but I'm sure it can be done.
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it used to be that if you worked hard, you could have a decent standard of living....now imo its getting harder and harder to make a decent wage...
Descent standard of living is relative. My parents had A LOT less than I do and they were not considered poor. We as a society expect too much now that isn't necessary. Cable TV, cell phones, huge houses, expensive cars, expensive dinners, expensive toys - the list goes on and on. I remember getting into a debate with Ammo sometime last year that an internet connection was a BASIC NECESSITY! Sorry, it isn't. Neither is a cell phone, or any of the stuff I listed above. I think the expected standard has become very high, which also feeds the problem of people over extending themselves.
#gmstrong
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We as a society expect too much now that isn't necessary. Cable TV, cell phones, huge houses, expensive cars, expensive dinners, expensive toys - the list goes on and on. I remember getting into a debate with Ammo sometime last year that an internet connection was a BASIC NECESSITY! Sorry, it isn't.
Could not agree more and I've been saying it for years. to be hoenst, I'm as guilty as a lot of people... but not as bad as others.
"Internet connection is a basic necessity"... LOL. Gee, even a telephone isn't a basic necessity.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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i agree with ya, but the net? how my gonna get to dawgtalkers?  i hear ya though...i'm gonna be facing cuts too...but i really wouldn't want to cut the net.....might look for cheaper service...but its information...it helps fix my car, my appliances...and teaches me a whole lot...
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I'm guilty of it too. Very much so. I had a horrible problem with credit cards and was lucky enough to be able to pay them all off. My only debt now is a car payment and my house which I hate to say I'm upside down on. I'd sell it if I could and get something smaller but it isn't worth it due to the loss I'd take.
And elf - I agree I would go crazy without an internet connection, but if it meant surviving it would have to go. Granted, I do need mine as I work from home, my business is software, and I do a lot of telecommuting for with my clients.
#gmstrong
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I wouldn't be too concerned about the housing crunch, as everyone is in that "upside down" boat, so to speak.
Like you, we have only it (the mortgage) and a car (my truck) payment, and as soon as that is paid off, I'm buying the wife a new Mustang. But,...gotta wait !!
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I don't worry about it anymore; there is not sense in doing so. And my house value probably dropped even more due to Reynoldsburg not passing the school levy yesterday.
#gmstrong
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Ouch,...I vote FOR every school levy, no matter what.
We are in Delaware because of (and very, very close to) the wife's work,...have a nice modest Dominion ranch that we plan on keeping for the next 25 or so, so we're not as concerned about its "real" value (whatever that really is anyway, ya know ?)
Need to get it refinanced though,....
My plan is to work until I die. I enjoy it. So, Obama can crack down on business taxes all he wants. That'll just prolong the agony.
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what would a school levy have to do with the value of your house?
they are just trying to make up for lost revenues....why don't they just cut back like the rest of us?
a good school is a good school....are they gonna lower the levy when the housing values increase?
technically the value of your house is relative...depending if you want to sell or not...
the value that you are taxed at isn't gonna change just because the market tanked...you would have to challenge the number that they valued it at...
if you aren't selling, then as far as i'm concerned you want the value to fall...cause you could pay less taxes...
if you want to sell then its a different story...
gov't and schools want to inflate house values because they get more tax money....and the equity can be borrowed against..and the banks profit off of that...
i've got my house..and i've got my payment fixed...so i have shelter....as far as i'm concerned they can tell me its worth 50 thousand...i would say fine, and get my taxes adjusted accordingly...
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I vote fore every levy as well. Education is very, very important to me. Quote:
what would a school levy have to do with the value of your house?
Bad schools=no one wants to live in your city=can't sell house=have to lower it to do so.
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they are just trying to make up for lost revenues....why don't they just cut back like the rest of us?
They are going to cut all art, music, and physical education from elementary schools, cutting 100 positions, 73 of them teaching positions, going to the least amount of hours required by the state each day, charge $800 per after school activity and eliminate busing for high school and all children within 2 miles of the school.
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a good school is a good school....are they gonna lower the levy when the housing values increase?
No. They haven't asked for an increase in 10 years - which was a very bad decision by them in my opinion - and then asked for a HUGE levy on Tuesday. 15.6mil, which is about $500 per year per 100k of house value. Levy's have to do with the number of students - if there are more they need more money for more teachers, buildings, etc.
Now, I HATE that schools are tied to property taxes. Horrible model, and one that needs a better solution - I'm just not sure what that is.
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technically the value of your house is relative...depending if you want to sell or not...
the value that you are taxed at isn't gonna change just because the market tanked...you would have to challenge the number that they valued it at...
Which I did and got lowered by almost 50k
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if you aren't selling, then as far as i'm concerned you want the value to fall...cause you could pay less taxes...
if you want to sell then its a different story...
I want to sell - my son goes to school in Hilliard - I drive 125 miles per day to get him there and back when I have him (every other week). I don't need as big of a house as I have either since my divorce. But I'd also need to shell out 40k when I sell because I am so upside down.
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gov't and schools want to inflate house values because they get more tax money....and the equity can be borrowed against..and the banks profit off of that...
i've got my house..and i've got my payment fixed...so i have shelter....as far as i'm concerned they can tell me its worth 50 thousand...i would say fine, and get my taxes adjusted accordingly...
I agree. My payment is fixed to, and it can be adjusted as I just did a few months ago. I'll hold onto the house until the market rebounds.
#gmstrong
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I vote FOR every school levy, no matter what.
That is insane.
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... I would go crazy without an internet connection, but if it meant surviving it would have to go. Granted, I do need mine as I work from home, my business is software, and I do a lot of telecommuting for with my clients.
Obviously that's a different scenario, if your business is software.
But you'd find a way to survive without it, right? There are only three needs (and the Internet ain't one of 'em): food, water and staying warm. I almost put sex in there\, too but that's not a necessity. Almost, but not quite. 
gmstrong -----------------
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Quote:
I vote FOR every school levy, no matter what.
That is insane.
You're welcome.
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