DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Peter King's Prediction: Browns last place...

Well, since more than one person thinks this, I guess I have been coming across bad. I truly do apologize. I know that just because I have this "title" I don't know everything and it doesn't make me right. I can't begin to say how sorry I am for this, as I never wish to come across like that.

Whoa whoa whoa. I resent the fact that your buckling so easily here. Two appologies? I think I deserve an apology from you now for disappinting me with your hair-trigger humility.

But seriously dude - please! I wouldn't say you've been in the wrong very much at all, of course it's recomended that let your points speak for themselves rather then trying to prop them up with your resume ... It doesn't matter how many times you watched a game - what did you see and what did you think?

At the same time I understand how easy it is to just say 'trust me-you should listen.' In the same way a teacher might expect his students to listen to him.. just because he's the teacher! But that doesn't make the teaher wrong, it just doesn't make him a good teacher.


But please don't worry about 'talking down' to people. Write the most thourough and insigthful post you can and let people worry about their own reading comprehension themselves.

I don't think Rish or I said he was "in the wrong". Just that he came across as being a bit of a know-it-all. And since he's barely 16 that may not be the way he wants to go about stating his opinion, on here or in life.

Neither of us asked for an apology and frankly I'm impressed that he would do that although I do not feel he owed one to anyone.

As far as "talking down" to people.....well, if more than one person thought the same thing about a poster lately I doubt it was mass reading miscomprehension.......

You're going to learn not to apologize everytime one of the sensitive ones gets offended..I don't worry about it..
Now I've been reading the posts and I think what I'm seeing is disappointment more than anything..

QB - Quinn and DA return. Ratliff replaces Dorsey/Gradkowski. Comment: Dorsey had a rating of 26.4. Ratliff is an unknown, but barring injuries he won't play. No change in personnel, but the QB play will be much improved if some combination of Quinn and Anderson starts all 16 games.

RB - Lewis and Harrison return; Davis replaces Jason Wright. Comment: Davis is unknown. Wright rushed for 85 yards last year and had 156 yards in receptions. Should be a wash. With Lewis down to 3.6 ypc last year this might be the weakest unit on the team.

FB - No change.

TE - Winslow replaced by Royal. Winslow: 43 catches, 428 yds, 10.0 avg, 3 TD's. Royal: 33 catches, 351 yards, 10.6 avg, 1 TD. Statistically, no significant difference. If anything, edge to Royal because he was probably thrown to a lot less yet compiled similar numbers. Blocking, Royal is a huge improvement. Drive killing offensive pass interference penalties, no contest. Comment: Should be an improvement, and could be a big improvement if Rucker steps up as a receiving threat in his second season.

OL - Pork Chop, St. Clair, and Mack in, Shaffer out. Possibly Tucker returns after missing 15 games in '08. Comment: Much stronger in the run game..no question.

WR * * * Stallworth and probably Steptoe out, Robiskie, Massaquoi, Patten, or Furrey in. Comment: Stallworth had 170 yards in pass receptions last year. Steptoe had 182. This has got to be a huge improvement, even more so if Braylon rebounds. With Braylon being motivated by a contract year and a no-nonsense coaching staff, and with Robo/Massa replacing Stallworth/Steptoe, this group has the most potential for improvement IMO.

DL - Coleman and Mosley add veteran depth. Robaire Smith returns from injury.
Those achillie tears are hard to come back from.. Corey Williams should be healthy after playing with a bad shoulder all year. No significant losses. Comment: Front line talent somewhat improved, depth greatly improved. Shaun Smith, Louis Leonard, and Santonio Thomas should not see nearly as many snaps this year.

LB - Andra Davis and McGinest out, Barton, Bowens, Veikune, and Maiava in.
Comment: Two journeymen veterans replaced by two journeyman veterans. . Veikune played all over the line in college and Maiava is a special teams guy who may contribute some on passing downs. Little if any immediate improvement with this unit, unless Alex Hall comes on.

CB- Cousins and Travis Daniels out, Ivy, Poteat, and the two 6th round picks in. Comment: Anything will be an improvement over Cousins. The rookies are projects.
But corners can be developed... Slight improvement as Ivy replaces Cousins as the nickel.

S - Sean Jones out, Elam in. I have to see this one in action....

Special teams Same punter, placekicker, longsnapper, and kick returner. Many new faces likely on the coverage and return units, so we have no idea how well these units will perform.

Coaching Mangini and staff replace Crennel and staff. Might be the biggest improvement of all.

Anyone and I mean anyone including U Heldawg, can try and debate me about corners ...if U like

"Tit for tat then.
Name me a worse starting CB pairing in the NFL."

Not really...you are forgetting one thing - You set up specific guidelines to your ( + ) ( - ) with a specific number (basically half).

Heck loads of them - many teams had one good CB like Dallas who had injuries but played a lot anyway. Great pass rush. I'm going to the head of the class and will dare to compare the UNIT to Dallas' - I watched them a lot and their Corner play was not good at all. Newman is a very good corner but marred with injuries was limited in his production. AHen had one of his worst seasons.

Our problem was not with EW n McD...depth was our biggest problem along with Pressure. Btw...if any were to play Nickel it would be EW - McD's runs support was very good so he would be there for 2downs. But I took one that you would go NO WAY!! on Cowboys, but I watched them play and their unit did not play well Newman was only there for 10 games and most of them played hurt. They had Rookies starting in his place and coming in A LOT when he did start.


On Corey Williams - "He certainly has not produced here but from what I am led to believe that's because of injuries."

How are you quantifying Produce? with stats like Sacks and Tackles. Most of the 3-4 duties are void of statistics.

Technique to fight double teams require a lot of use of the upper body, with a bum shoulder it did take its toll.

But the 2nd of the half Corey Williams actually had some very good games he improved a lot. I see him as a very talented 3-4 DE.

3-4 is statless for the DL thats the only reason 4-3 looks attractive but both Rogers and Williams will have to command a double team or they will do damage. There job will mean stats for others.

The Franchise tag meant a lot the only team that TAGs marginal players would be the Bengals. GB just wasn't going to be able to give the contract that CW wanted so they tagged him as their efforts to resign failed.

So no mention of DQ, Do you concede at least that as a mistake

Our opinions of our players is on polar ends - I know I am bias cause they are Browns - some I see top 16 with anticipation...BQ, Mack, Robiskie, DV n even Elam...btw one analyst predicted Elam will get into the Pro-Bowl

Wimbley...I say is below as I try to be fair...our voided DE although I think Coleman is excellent against the run I guess is on the bubble.

The right side of our OL - I can see in your realm although a healthy Tucker is in the TOP 16.

Whatever we got NOT MAKING the Top 16 are very close and in that TOP 20.

Most important is how they will mesh all together as a UNIT.

JMHO...as I said I'm sure you see mine as Bazaar as I see yours. What can ya do??? We both hope I'm right...

QB massively improved from last year. BQ actually got his feet wet and we will not see DA proclaimed the starter in Feb. Quinn's leadership is the #1 factor that gives me confidence in the QB position. Timing based passing attack sounds like designed for Quinn to me

RB There will be more focus on a power running game under Mangini but I still have zero confidence in Lewis. Last year he did nothing at all and it wasnt the OL either. Harrison and Davis the opportunity will be there to make a name for yourself.

WR On paper its the best group of receivers we have had since the mid 80s. BE has been humbled with his perceived value and we have a nice mixture of vets and rooks. Very fun group to watch in camp.

OL With this group of linemen, I would probably play action every pass lol. They got some pop but can the right side drop. RT is up for grabs and I dont trust any RT on our roster.

TE You cant run a timing based passing game nor a power base run game with a TE that cant block and cant practice. I like what we have especially if Rucker can learn to block and with Heiden and Royal we have consistency.

FB another year of experience for two talented fullbacks



DL this is a talented group with excellent depth we can win with this group. these guys should be able to rotate and stay fresh without a huge drop off in level of play.

LB Bell or Veikune better step up and take a spot from Barton cause he sucks. DQ is solid despite what some around here believe. Wimbley and Hall need to get stronger. I think rob ryan will make a huge difference in this linebacker corps. I really like what I have seen from Hall.

S personally its my biggest question on defense.

CB another year of experience for Wright and McDonald and folks both had a very good year. There isnt another tandem in the NFL that would have done any better with no pass rush and the worst safety play in the league.

Attack got this one right, coaching has been upgraded vastly. The last few years has provided folks around here with 2 guys pretending to be head coaches. Maybe thats why Coach B agreed with everything Romeo did lol.

what do u want to get an opinion on?? . not that I'll really care ... there is 3 or 4 guys I enjoy reading and watching ...

Jaws, Salsbury and Lombardi ... and 2 of those 3 do not like BQ .. but (and u best sit down for this .. as u may find it hard to believe and i do not want u to fall down and hurt your head .. *L*) ...

but .. I DO NOT AGREE WITH THEM .... *L* ...

as for Jake ... I went and did what LOSERS DO .. and he did not have as bad a year as I thought he did .. he STUNK IN 3 out of 17 games .. AND I MEAN stunk ... I had forgoten about the playoff game ... that never entered into my evaluation ...

but he did not play as bad as i thought he did .... he was VERY EFFICIENT in the last 8 games (other than his one HORRIBLE GAME) of the regular season .. then he was HORRIBLE again in the playoffs ...

but like I said .. he was not as bad as i thought overall ... so u were right in that respect ..

but i gotta tell U .... 15 TD to 13 INT's .... if BQ does that ... I will NOT BE HAPPY ...

I would take BQ in a heartbeat over Jake .. TODAY ... and i bet that the panthers would to .. jake is not that good ...

You are right. 34 DEs are pretty statless. I guess the easiest way to tell if a 34 DE is doing his job is when you see LBers running free defending the run. If OGs and Cs are on the second level all the time then he's certainly not doing his primary job.

I don't need to tell you what was happening last year...

And I watched Williams play pitty patty with one guy on more that a few occasions getting no push whatsoever.


On DQ. He's mismatched in the defense and if he was allowed to go to a 4-3 he would be a good to very good player with Pro Bowl potential.

Here he gets swallowed up in confined spaces. We need monsters in the middle and he's a chase and tackle backer. It's a shame that he has to try and lead this group in this defense.

And do I believe DQ was untouchable this offseason with Thomas??? Ummmm no.

Was that a direct quote or was that a "Gross"i misrepresentation? If you or anyone else can find the source for that I'd appreciate it.

If I were the Browns GM I would trade DQ in a heartbeat and get a better fit in here.

And if you would be so kind to get Jerry Jones on the phone and offer our cornerbacks to Dallas in exchange for ours I'd appreciate it. I would expect to hear a click in oh about .000000001 seconds.

I appreciate the link but that story still isn't the genesis of the suggestion.

I have a feeling it was not a quote but an extrapolation by Grossi from a comment from Mangini about DQ being around the ball a lot. He may have then deduced as only Grossi can that DQ was untouchable this offseaon.

Or maybe it was a direct quote from Mangini or Kokinis. I'd just like to know.

that's what came up in a quick-search.

pretty sure it was a quote or close to it quote from Mangini and Kokinis. Search around in their pressers and you can probably find it.

Sometime just before this report was posted (3/24)

It was a direct quote from Mangini.

I completely disagree with you on Williams. He was nearly immovable against the run, and he occasionally got pressure on the quarterback. He is no Richard Seymour, but he is solid.

Wright and McDonald are the 2nd and 3rd best players on our D. I can't even tell you who the 4th would be. Jackson is highly overrated. If you have one of the 2 best DTs in the game dominating up front all season and you're in the bottom 5 in run defense in the league, that falls on your LBs. Williams/smith/smith did a good-enough job at end and Leonard wasn't bad enough to drag the defense down. The same way you can attribute our awful pass-rush to olbs, you can blame the run game on our ilbs.

Our LB play will improve DRAMATICALLY with AD and WM no longer on the field.

Rubin got some playing time last year... He did really well when he was in... I remember him being able to fight off the block and getting to the RB at the LOS...

I think Rubin can be a key piece to our front 3... I'm hoping he beats out the smiths even though I really do like Robaire... His injury and age are his downfall though

Chinchilla 7222: ( 4-6 wins) I think your real close on that one, it's the same as I see right now. A little early yet, but the folks out in Vegas kind of agree at the moment.

They have the Lions rated last, (32; then the Rams (31 : Then the Raiders (30 : with the Bengals and Browns tied for (29 : That's the betting odds as of right now. The Pats are #1 followed by the Steelers #2 and the Giants and Colts are tied for #3.

Things will change along the way, but for now that's the way it is. After training camps and the pre-season are over, there will be the usual jumps. And of coarse, the injury picture will have a fairly big stake in what happens, by the time the regular season gets under way.

On paper, we're due for an easy schedule, so I don't think a competing season would necessarily be amazing (think two years ago)...but I would certainly be surprised.

"And do I believe DQ was untouchable this offseason with Thomas??? Ummmm no."

And here in lies where I am please that your negative opinion more than likely is biased in a negative degree and not a dose of "REALITY".

1. Your explanation of DQ was off.
2. Believe??? this was not a rumor, this was not reported by a writer as opinion or unamed source. This was an outright STATEMENT by M/K forgot which one actually said it as one of them did. But in doing so they spoke for both of them.

It's beyond what you believe or not. That is not even an option. Its a matter of you being in denial that your opinion actually is wrong...thank goodness

"And if you would be so kind to get Jerry Jones on the phone and offer our cornerbacks to Dallas in exchange for ours I'd appreciate it. I would expect to hear a click in oh about .000000001 seconds."

Oh I would probably take Newman (healthy) and the prospects of Jenkins over the duo of EW n McD...more than likely I won't argue that. But our 2 did not play as bad as you think. We had no pressure and progressed very well as both were in their 2nd season. My point was our starters were better than the Cowboys last year. And I can only assume that we would be going off of that.

As for that being real DQ being untouchable...I believe the original article came in the Plains Dealer??? but was a direct quote and never refuted as not being accurate. Around Mid-March...going on memory if anyone is better at the Internet stuff can pull the actual article, thanks. But it was REAL!

JMHO

Turk, I really like Rubin, too. I was hoping we'd get him in the fourth last year. But that guy's a NT. That's just what he is. It would take a significant shift in his game to kick him out to end IMO.

Belichick had us moving in the right direction. In hindsight, he did a better coaching job than Marty with less talent. In fairness to Marty, he had no ability to stock the team with tons of FA to work with. But Bill also had the salary cap to deal with.

BB was *trying* to make us into an NFC team when the NFC was the better conference. Hence us beating NFC teams like Dallas, SF, GB, Philly, etc. Our problem was Cin-Hou-Pit. Yes, even the Dave Shula Bengals were competitive against us and even split with us a few seasons.

I wouldn't say that Mangini is the best since Marty, but we'll wait and see.
Josh

Well you know how King can be. He shows favoritism!

lol, that wasn't right

My apologies to DT. The devil made me do it.

J/C

As with most threads, this one went in odd directions and often went off the main point - PK picked the Browns as the worst team in the NFL. In doing these rankings, there is a #1 team and a #32 team by choice. He did not select the Browns as an "also-ran". If he did that then he would lump the bottom 7 teams as a group. Instead, he selected one team as the worst.

The argument on this thread should be about whether the Browns are the worst team in the league - NOT whether the Browns will contend for the playoffs. And, the Browns are not the worst team in the league. No way, no how!

It's amazing how reporters and commentators lose rational thought and logic. First and foremost, the Browns have a new coach who has had two winning seasons in the past three and led a team from 4-12 to the playoffs. (I'm not saying he will take the Browns to the playoffs, but he will improve the team's performance). Meanwhile these other teams were bad last year (or, as in the case of the Broncos, traded their best player for a run-of-the-mill QB) AND they have new unproven coaches (and, AGAIN as in the case of the Broncos, some are not looking too good with early actions).

The other point of this thread is that Peter King really does not know football. He is a good reporter because he has connections and he can spin a good story - but his knowledge of the game is limited only to what his sources tell him. In other words, he is a reporter and not an analyst. The only thing he seems qualified to analyze is coffee and that is questionable at best.

Here is my list of the worst teams in the league:
Lions
Chiefs
Rams
Broncos
Raiders

(One other point - I am treating these as true "power" rankings, meaning the teams that are better/worse if they were to play each other. The potential record is beside the point. Power rankings should attempt to account for strength of schedule and competitiveness of division. Thus, you find Vegas putting the Cleveland odds at the bottom because they have to face two of the top teams in the league 4 times - Vegas is predicting Super Bowl victory, and it is hard to expect for the Browns when facing the Steelers and Ravens).

I'm used to it now. Anything over 500 is a great season in my book! A win over the Steelers and ratbirds makes a 500 season sweeter! I'm not holding my breath though.