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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/us/19detain.html?_r=1&hpwAdvocacy Groups Seek Disbarment of Ex-Bush Administration Lawyers By SCOTT SHANE May 18, 2009 WASHINGTON — A coalition of left-wing advocacy groups filed legal ethics complaints on Monday against 12 former Bush administration lawyers, including three United States attorneys general, whom the groups accuse of helping to justify torture. The coalition, called Velvet Revolution, asked the bar associations in four states and the District of Columbia to disbar the lawyers, saying their actions violated the rules of professional responsibility by approving interrogation methods, including waterboarding, that constituted illegal torture. By writing or approving legal opinions justifying such methods, the advocates say, the Bush administration lawyers violated the Geneva Conventions, the Convention Against Torture and American law. Kevin Zeese, a longtime activist and lawyer who signed the complaints on behalf of Velvet Revolution, said the groups were acting because the Obama administration had resisted calls for a criminal investigation of abuse of prisoners under the Bush administration. The Obama administration has not ruled out the possibility of professional disciplinary action being taken against some of those involved. “The torture issue needs to be taken out of the hands of politicians if it is going to be dealt with as the war crimes that it is,” Mr. Zeese said. The complaints are available online at the group’s Web site, www.velvetrevolution.us/torture_lawyers/index.php. The filings come as the Justice Department’s ethics office, the Office of Professional Responsibility, completes a report on the department lawyers who wrote opinions authorizing harsh interrogations. The report, in the works for nearly five years and expected to be released in the next few weeks, is said to be highly critical of some authors of the opinions, including John C. Yoo, a senior official at the department’s Office of Legal Counsel in 2002, and his boss, Jay S. Bybee. The Velvet Revolution complaint also names Steven G. Bradbury, who headed the legal counsel office from 2005 to 2009; the three attorneys general, John Ashcroft, Alberto R. Gonzales and Michael B. Mukasey; Michael Chertoff and Alice S. Fisher, who headed the Justice Department’s criminal division; two former Pentagon officials, Douglas J. Feith and William J. Haynes II; and two former White House lawyers, Timothy E. Flanigan and David S. Addington. Legal experts are divided over the likely effect of such complaints. A complaint filed last year against Mr. Yoo, a Berkeley law professor who remains a member of the Pennsylvania bar, was rejected by that state’s bar association, in part because the Justice Department was already investigating Mr. Yoo’s role in the interrogation memorandums. Mr. Yoo has often defended his role in writing the legal opinions, noting that they were written in the anxious months after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and were intended only to outline the limits of the law, not to advise policy makers on what methods to use. But one interrogation opinion written primarily by Mr. Yoo was later withdrawn by the Justice Department, which considered it overly broad and poorly reasoned.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/18/AR2009051803126.html?hpid=topnewsAmid Queries, CIA Worries About Future Intelligence Officials Privately Warn That New Rules May Hinder Their Interrogations By Walter Pincus Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, May 19, 2009 Battered by recriminations over waterboarding and other harsh techniques sanctioned by the Bush administration, the CIA is girding itself for more public scrutiny and is questioning whether agency personnel can conduct interrogations effectively under rules set out for the U.S. military, according to senior intelligence officials. Harsh interrogations were only one part of its clandestine activities against al-Qaeda and other enemies, and agency members are worried that other operations in Afghanistan and Pakistan will come under review, the officials said. CIA Director Leon Panetta said he has established a group at the agency to handle requests for documents by Congress, the prosecutors and any "truth commission." The agency is facing a dispute with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) over how much agency officials told congressional overseers about the harsh techniques. The agency's defensiveness in part reflects a conviction that it is being forced to take the blame for actions approved by elected officials that have since fallen into disfavor. Former CIA director Michael V. Hayden said in an interview that CIA managers and operations officers have again been put "in a horrible position." Hayden recalled an officer asking, "Will I be in trouble five years from now for what I agree to do today?" Although President Obama has said no CIA officers will be prosecuted for their roles in harsh interrogations if they remained within Justice Department guidelines in effect at the time, agency personnel still face subpoenas and testimony under oath before criminal, civil and congressional bodies. As part of an ongoing criminal inquiry into the CIA's destruction of videotapes depicting waterboarding, CIA personnel will appear before a grand jury this week, according to two sources familiar with the matter who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the case is continuing. The Senate intelligence committee is pursuing its investigation into whether harsh interrogations, including waterboarding, brought forward worthwhile intelligence, as agency and Bush administration officials have maintained. Officially, the agency says there is no distraction. "The agency's fight against al-Qaeda and its allies continues undiminished," Paul Gimigliano, the acting head of CIA public affairs, said recently. "The job here, as always, is on getting the job done in accordance with the law." Top agency officials said the mood of concern that exists at headquarters is less apparent among personnel overseas. The Obama administration's decisions to close the U.S. military detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, make public Justice Department memos sanctioning harsh interrogation, and ban techniques authorized by the Bush administration are affecting the agency's operations. Agency officials said they will carry out any future debriefings or interrogations under provisions of the 2006 version of the Army Field Manual. They said they also will assist other agencies that conduct interrogations in order to assess the accuracy of the information obtained. Under an executive order signed by Obama on Jan. 20, the Field Manual is "the law of the land. . . . There is nothing outside it now," one intelligence official said. But according to several past agency and military officials, the Field Manual is sometimes so broad as to be unclear. Its section on interrogation bans "violence, threats, or impermissible or unlawful physical contact," without specifying what is sanctioned. The manual also says an interrogator cannot threaten "the removal of protections afforded by law." Present and past CIA officials maintain that other legal techniques exist beyond those mentioned in the Field Manual that should be available for use. Panetta has said he would go to the president for authority to use them if he believed it necessary. For example, the "attention grasp," described as "grasping the individual with both hands, one hand on either side of the collar," is one of the 13 techniques employed in the past by the CIA and is listed in the Justice Department's May 10, 2005, memo. It is barred under the Field Manual. Unlike harsher techniques on the list, such as nudity, dietary control, sleep deprivation and waterboarding, CIA officials say they want the authority to use the attention grasp without going back to Washington for approval. The CIA has also recommended to the presidential task force studying future rules for interrogation that the agency, FBI and Defense Department establish a joint interrogation training center so that all agencies understand the rules under which they operate. The Field Manual, which was published in 2006, says that "direct approach" interrogation operations in World War II had a 90 percent effectiveness, and those in Vietnam, Kuwait and Iraq had a success rate of 95 percent. Afghanistan since 2002 and Iraq since 2003 are still being studied. "However," it adds, "unofficial studies indicate that in these operations, the direct approach has been dramatically less successful." Another intelligence official, who also asked not to be identified, said waterboarding and other harsh techniques "were meant to get hardened terrorists to a point where they were willing to answer questions." That capability, the official said, "is now gone." The special task force set up by Obama in January will determine whether the Field Manual interrogation guidelines are too narrow and whether "additional guidance is necessary for CIA," according to a White House statement. A report on that study is not expected before July.
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Another intelligence official, who also asked not to be identified, said waterboarding and other harsh techniques "were meant to get hardened terrorists to a point where they were willing to answer questions." That capability, the official said, "is now gone."
Boo Hoo, How about we actually act as a civilized nation and don't torture people.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Have you forgotten those people jumping from the upper floors of the WTC?
When you're dealing with crazy, you have to get a bit loony yourself.
Last edited by lampdogg; 05/19/09 10:32 AM.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Have you forgotten those people jumping from the upper floors of the WTC?
And two wrongs make a right, right?
People die in 9/11 so that gives us free reign. Not really.
This is why other nations hate us---cuz we do things and justify our actions doing these things---while at the same time telling other nations that they can't do these things cuz they are wrong.
We execute japanese soldiers for waterboarding our soldiers---but when we do it---its OK cuz terrorists are hardened and people died on 9/11. Get a grip. While 9/11 certainly was a tragedy that occurred on account of some nefarious people--it does not mean we can go around making our own rules on how to treat people.
We kill tens of thousands of men, women, and children by being the only nation to use a nuclear weapon in war---then we tell other nations they can't have these weapons or use them. We KILLED children by the truckload---but thats OK cuz we are the good ole USA. Some people on this board are just sick.
We pollute and destroy our environment throughout the industrial revolution and for decades afterward. But as other developing nations move towards industrialization we tell them they can't do this or that out of respect for the environment. We enact sanction and tell them how they should act as we do as we please. Thats why people hate us.
Until we stop this double standard, people will continue to hate us.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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I wasn't talking about nuclear capabilities or the environment, although I respect your thoughts on those issues....
A little bit of waterboarding doesn't hurt anyone, from all I've read about it. Beats having your head chopped off, I imagine.
gmstrong -----------------
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And two wrongs make a right, right?
No but it does make it even. . You make it a less attractive option to attack us by whatever means that you can live with . You can play nice and win hearts and minds and hope that will be enough or you can visit death and detruction not seen since biblical times upon the terreorists their families and any and all support groups they may have and hope that will be enough . I am of the opinion that you try the first then if that fails you carry out the latter option until you run out of bodies or bullets , whichever comes first .
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A little bit of waterboarding doesn't hurt anyone, from all I've read about it.
That is a cop out . Wanna let me try it out on you then you can give a first hand account of how a " little bit of waterboarding" doesn't hurt. If you are for torture ( I am btw) that is fine but don't try and church it up and call it any thing other than what it is. When you are fighting a war you use any and all means at your disposal to win .
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Some people on this board are just sick.
You've said you smile when you hear law enforcement officers are killed and you have the nerve to call someone else sick?
The fact that you hate this country is probably a very good sign. 
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A little bit of waterboarding doesn't hurt anyone, from all I've read about it.
That is a cop out . Wanna let me try it out on you then you can give a first hand account of how a " little bit of waterboarding" doesn't hurt....
I'm sure it's not fun, but does anyone die from it?
gmstrong -----------------
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A little bit of waterboarding doesn't hurt anyone, from all I've read about it. Beats having your head chopped off, I imagine.
A little bit of waterboarding has hurt our credibility, it has hurt our global image, and it has embroiled the American public in yet another debate on the ruthlessness of the American government.
Like I said. We tried and punished people from other nations for waterboarding---but when we do it-----its OK, cuz some people died.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Quoting Jules: Quote:
You've said you smile when you hear law enforcement officers are killed and you have the nerve to call someone else sick?
Derden.... you get a kick out of hearing a cop gets killed? Do you know any cops?
gmstrong -----------------
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Oh lord, whats next. Are the wack jobs going to want all Nuns fired for cracking students knuckles with a ruler 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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A little bit of waterboarding doesn't hurt anyone, from all I've read about it. Beats having your head chopped off, I imagine.
maybe next time we should chop there heads off before water boarding .. then the waterboarding won't be so hard on them .. 
It don't really matter Lamp .. the bleeding hearts are going to get there way .. and the military and intelligence people will have there hands tied ... we will have a significant drop in out intelligence gathering networks ... and just like during the Clinton Admin we will be so weak at the end of the BinBoma era another 9/11 will take place ..
I just wish we could round up all the people that weaken our country like Pelosi and BinBoma and folks that think like Darden and PhilDawson and stick them in one place and have them be the target .. I WISH THIS ON NO ONE ..... let me be PERFECTLY CLEAR .. I WISH THIS ON NO ONE ....
but if it does have to happen (and it will) .... I wish the ones that want these terrorists to have "rights" and be treated with some sort of "code of ethics" and be treated "fairly" could be seperated and be there targets ..... since its folks like them that should be blamed .. they should be the ones to feel the wrath of those they WANT PROTECTED ...
If u want them protected .. U AND U ALONE SHOULD FEEL THERE WRATH ... unfortunately it does not work that way .. 
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Just clicking
I don't much care what side of the argument people come down on with this..
It's history..
As a people, we better get past this or it will tear us apart as a nation.
Groups like this that have no real chance of effecting any change are only credible because some media gives them a forum to speak out.. Perfectly Ok,, that's thier rights... But somewhere along the line, the different sides of this discussion have to learn to live with the past and move on from here.
Wanting to punish all of Bushes men... That's just crazy.. Right or wrong, I'm pretty sure they did what they thought was best for the country..
They did what they did.. Who's to say that given the same exact set of circumstances that the present adminstration wouldn't react in the same fashion.
Time to move on and fix the problems that are staring us in the face.... Putting people in jail for perceived past crimes (and it's a matter of opinion if they were or weren't) isn't going to solve anything going forward..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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we will have a significant drop in out intelligence gathering networks
There is scant evidence to prove this.
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I just wish we could round up all the people that weaken our country like Pelosi and BinBoma and folks that think like Darden and PhilDawson and stick them in one place and have them be the target .. I WISH THIS ON NO ONE ..... let me be PERFECTLY CLEAR .. I WISH THIS ON NO ONE ....
but if it does have to happen (and it will) .... I wish the ones that want these terrorists to have "rights" and be treated with some sort of "code of ethics" and be treated "fairly" could be seperated and be there targets ..... since its folks like them that should be blamed .. they should be the ones to feel the wrath of those they WANT PROTECTED ..
Whatever you say, Osama. Hope you get your 72 virgins in Heaven. 
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I just wish we could round up all the people that weaken our country like Pelosi and BinBoma and folks that think like Darden and PhilDawson and stick them in one place and have them be the target .. I WISH THIS ON NO ONE ..... let me be PERFECTLY CLEAR .. I WISH THIS ON NO ONE ....
I'm very very confused....and slightly concerned.
~Lyuokdea
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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I just wish we could round up all the people that weaken our country like Pelosi and BinBoma and folks that think like Darden and PhilDawson and stick them in one place and have them be the target .. I WISH THIS ON NO ONE ..... let me be PERFECTLY CLEAR .. I WISH THIS ON NO ONE ....
I'm very very confused....and slightly concerned.
~Lyuokdea
Eh someone started happy hour a little early. He wishes that they become targets but he wishes that on no one...so simple?  
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let me try and clear it up for ya then .. cause lord only knows i;d hate to leave anyone confused .. *L* ..
1. folks like Pelosi and BinBoma and that think like Phil and Darden want to give the terrorists rights and protect them .. they want to hold us up to some standards that supposedly makes us better than them ..
2. that is all so noble and well and good .. problem is the terrorists (the ones that Phil and BinBoma) want to "protect" .. they have no STANDARDS they have NO RULES ...
3. so when BinBoma and phil and all the rest of the "ivory tower" folks TIE THE HANDS OF OUR MILITARY AND INTELLIGENCE GATHERING forces ... it leaves folks like ME and OTHER LIKE MINDED folk AT RISK ..
4. so when the PROTECTED TERRORISTS ATTACK ... i wish the only ones that would be HARMED are the ONES THAT WANT TO PROTECT THEM ..
anotherwords .. the folks who are RESPONSIBLE for there PROTECTION should be the ONES TO FEEL THERE WRATH ...
I am not quite sure what is confusing about that .. or what U could possible be concerned about ... cause like i said .. I WISH TERRORIST ACTS ON NO ONE ... but unlike BinBoma and Phil I REALIZE that with there policies in affect .. THERE GOING TO HAPPEN .. therefore .. enact them on the folks that our PROTECTING the very people that will inflict the harm ..
makes sense to me .. but then again .. ACCOUNTABILITY for your actions is not sumptin that the folks like Phil and BinBoma are very high on .. they just believe in BAILING EVERYONE OUT THAT FAILS ..
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I am not quite sure what is confusing about that .. or what U could possible be concerned about ... cause like i said .. I WISH TERRORIST ACTS ON NO ONE ... but unlike BinBoma and Phil I REALIZE that with there policies in affect .. THERE GOING TO HAPPEN .. therefore .. enact them on the folks that our PROTECTING the very people that will inflict the harm ..
So you're claiming that a lack of torture interrogation is going to open us up to terrorist attacks, and therefore you want those who oppose torture to die in those attacks?
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I just wish we could round up all the people that weaken our country like Pelosi and BinBoma and folks that think like Darden and PhilDawson and stick them in one place and have them be the target .. I WISH THIS ON NO ONE ..... let me be PERFECTLY CLEAR .. I WISH THIS ON NO ONE ....
I'm very very confused....and slightly concerned.
~Lyuokdea
Makes sense to me. Moment of truth. I don't need my neck primed for the machete to get there.
If information gained prevented a single attack, even indirectly, then the techniques in question were necessary. I believe that those interned follow a line of thinking that all Americans are evil.
I don't give a damn what the world thinks. Hell, I don't care what my neighbors think. The war on terror, by any name, goes on. All the olive branches in the world will not quell the blood thirsty behavior of the Islamic facists. The murderers that twist religion into a profane and obscene ideology know only one end and all that fall under the Stars and Stripes are that end. They will not stop until Israel is gone and we are feeble. Should that be allowed?
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“The torture issue needs to be taken out of the hands of politicians if it is going to be dealt with as the war crimes that it is,” Mr. Zeese said.
Given the motivation towards prosecution......
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If information gained prevented a single attack, even indirectly, then the techniques in question were necessary. I believe that those interned follow a line of thinking that all Americans are evil.
I don't give a damn what the world thinks. Hell, I don't care what my neighbors think. The war on terror, by any name, goes on. All the olive branches in the world will not quell the blood thirsty behavior of the Islamic facists. The murderers that twist religion into a profane and obscene ideology know only one end and all that fall under the Stars and Stripes are that end. They will not stop until Israel is gone and we are feeble. Should that be allowed?
This just sounds...insane? Fundamentalist?
Change a few words around and it sounds like something a dangerous zealot would say. In fact....
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The war on terror, by any name, goes on. All the olive branches in the world will not quell the blood thirsty behavior of the American facists. The murderers that twist religion into a profane and obscene ideology know only one end and all that fall under jihad are that end. They will not stop until Islam is gone and we are feeble. Should that be allowed?
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If information gained prevented a single attack, even indirectly, then the techniques in question were necessary. I believe that those interned follow a line of thinking that all Americans are evil.
I believe that a lot of those interned were guilty of nothing except possibly wanting us out of their country.... among them there are probably some that would kill an American and broadcast it on the internet if given the chance... the problem is sorting them out.
For the record, I have no problem with waterboarding if there is good solid evidence that the person in question has information that is immediately relevant to saving lives.....
Waterboarding or torturing hundreds or thousands of people (many of whom probably have no real ties to terrorism), as standard practice, in hopes of gaining some morsel of information is insane.
yebat' Putin
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I believe that a lot of those interned were guilty of nothing except possibly wanting us out of their country.... among them there are probably some that would kill an American and broadcast it on the internet if given the chance... the problem is sorting them out.
That is something the conversation in America has sorely lacked.
The first question on everyone's mind should be 'who are these people and what did they do?' You can go from there on an individual basis, but somewhere along the line we just wrapped up the idea that anyone held as an enemy combatant is a 'bloodthirsty terrorist' and let the conversation go from there.
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Waterboarding or torturing hundreds or thousands of people (many of whom probably have no real ties to terrorism), as standard practice, in hopes of gaining some morsel of information is insane.
I agree 100% ... 100% .. COMPLETELY ABSOLUTELY AGREE ... it is not to be taken lightly ...
U do realize that all this is over the WATERBOARDING OF 3 PEOPLE .... u do know that .. don't u?? .. its not like we WATERBOARDED everyone we brought to Gitmo .... correct?? ..
and the 3 people we WATERBOARDED ... all HIGH PROFILE MEMERS OF AQ or the Taliban ... and there was PLENTY OF PROOF that these were and still are GREAT THREATS .. and back then they HAD GREAT INFO that was VERY RELEVANT ..
If I thought having a women in a bikini chop there units into tiny little pieces while still attached would have saved one American Life .. I WOULD BE ALL FOR IT FOR THE 3 HEATHENS WE WATERBOARDED ...
I'm pretty sure no one wants us to just go around and WATERBOARD EVERYONE ...
so whats your point??? ...
and U do realize that part of the training our SF's or Interrogators that will be inserted into the field under take is WATERBOARDING ... yup .. thats right ... every Special Forces member from whatever branch of the service, be they Green Berets, Navy Seals or any other SF's group ... as part of there training they ARE WATERBOARDED ....
well maybe not anymore ....
the IGNORANCE of most people on this subject is ASTOUNDING TO ME ... and I do not mean U ... I have NO CLUE how much u know about this subject ..
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the IGNORANCE of most people on this subject is ASTOUNDING TO ME ... and I do not mean U ... I have NO CLUE how much u know about this subject ..
Thank you because I know enough to have said this...
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For the record, I have no problem with waterboarding if there is good solid evidence that the person in question has information that is immediately relevant to saving lives.....
I know enough to know that waterboarding has been reserved for select few detainees and that as far as I know, there WAS significant reason to believe they were high value guys...
I was simply responding to another post that made it sound like we SHOULD waterboard anybody anywhere if there was even the slightest chance we could gain some intel out of it... which we are both against...
Sounds like you and I are already on the same page Diam.
yebat' Putin
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Eh someone started happy hour a little early. He wishes that they become targets but he wishes that on no one...so simple?
Well, one of the 6 responses seemed to actually get the point i was making....
Thanks,
~Lyuokdea
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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Eh someone started happy hour a little early. He wishes that they become targets but he wishes that on no one...so simple?
Well, one of the 6 responses seemed to actually get the point i was making....
But the point Diam was making was pretty self explanatory, really........If I may speak for him: those of us that are against torture should be those of us that die first. Fairly simple. Those of us that rail against being "barbaic" should be on the front lines, so to speak.
Not saying I disagree with him, or agree with him, but his point was pretty damn easy to get.........aside from some people just flat out not understanding life.
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Waterboarding or torturing hundreds or thousands of people (many of whom probably have no real ties to terrorism), as standard practice, in hopes of gaining some morsel of information is insane.
Yeah, I agree... it goes without saying, but I guess it bears repeating.
gmstrong -----------------
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When it comes to survival and preventing slaughter of thousands of my fellow countrymen by terrorists, I have no problem with waterboarding.....as long as it's done only to those whom we've determined to be a serious threat.
Some of you remind me of the French reporter that sarcastically asked Rumsfeld about our military tactics.
Rummy: "Do you speak German?"
Frenchy: "No"
Rummy: "Your Welcome"
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Legend
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But the point Diam was making was pretty self explanatory, really........If I may speak for him: those of us that are against torture should be those of us that die first. Fairly simple. Those of us that rail against being "barbaic" should be on the front lines, so to speak.
Not saying I disagree with him, or agree with him, but his point was pretty damn easy to get.........aside from some people just flat out not understanding life.
I don't think people can't understand what he's saying...it's more that they can't understand the sheer stupidity of his remarks.
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I don't think people can't understand what he's saying...it's more that they can't understand the sheer stupidity of his remarks.
It really wasn't either....
reading Diam's post, I got the following:
I wish X would happen to Person A, Person B, and Person C. Of course, I don't wish X would happen to anybody.
There were two sentences in a row that were a logical contradiction of each other, I was pointing it out as a joke...i get what point everybody in this thread is trying to make.
~Lyuokdea
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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I discounted his little disclaimer...it's essentially a way to say 'here's a really sadistic and evil thought I have' without actually being a man and standing accountable for his little terrorism fantasies.
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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I was simply responding to another post that made it sound like we SHOULD waterboard anybody anywhere if there was even the slightest chance we could gain some intel out of it... which we are both against...
Understanding of one's beliefs can be misinterpreted when sharing thoughts in text. Face to face conversation can lend itself to understanding, but........
"SHOULD waterboard ANYBODY"......"slightest chance"......."some intel"
equals?.....
"If information gained prevented a single attack, even indirectly, then the techniques in question were necessary."
or hopefully more clearly
"prevented a single attack"...."necessary".
and if that wasn't enough of a misrepresentation of what I stated.....
"Waterboarding or torturing HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS of people"
Perhaps you are making a general statement, but if the entire reply is aimed at my single sentence then your opinion is irresponsibly misguided. I stated no such thing.
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I have NO CLUE how much u know about this subject ..
While in context that is a conversation between DC / Diam, it can be applied to this entire thread......
..."a lot of those interned were guilty of nothing except possibly wanting us out of their country"
..."we just wrapped up the idea that anyone held as an enemy combatant is a 'bloodthirsty terrorist' and let the conversation go from there"
Does anyone here know that "a lot" of the detainees wish Americans no ill? Enemy combatant does not necessarily translate to blood thirsty (more aptly, murderous) terrorist, yet who here is privy to factual information that defines the difference? I do have an inherent trust in the way our Government conducted anti-terrorist operations to date.
Dawson....My resolution is fundamental and to some extent zealous by definition. That resolution is grounded in the completely sane reasoning to prevent further attacks. Believe it or not I can fully comprehend the turn on my own words, but we must make choices. Mine is obvious, but don't fool yourself and attempt to pin me down. I sincerely doubt if there is a table, literally or figuratively, that we can sit down at to resolve the brooding hatred. Maybe generations can pass and provide the salve. Not now though.
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Legend
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Quote:
I wish X would happen to Person A, Person B, and Person C. Of course, I don't wish X would happen to anybody.
There were two sentences in a row that were a logical contradiction of each other, I was pointing it out as a joke...i get what point everybody in this thread is trying to make.
Well, since you are going all math formula on us...
I think his actual point was... I wish X would happen to type A people ... I wish there were no type A people for that to happen to.
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Legend
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Well, since you are going all math formula on us...
I think his actual point was... I wish X would happen to type A people ... I wish there were no type A people for that to happen to.
Close but no stogie .... if doing it mathametically makes it easier for the braniacs .... here goes ..
I wish X would never happen ..... BUT since X is going to happen then I wish it would happen to type A people ...
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Phil, usually I sit back and smile at you and your fellow liberals. But sometimes you take this PC crap to far. Its easy for you guys to sit back and take the "High Road " when other peoples kids are in danger or being killed by Terrorists. However if it was you're kids or loved ones you would be standing in line to hook up the battery cables to a Terrorists testicles. If you can tell me I'm wrong , I'll call you a Damn Mis-informer. Everyone knows the libs ( far left ) hate America and her military. So what if a few of our Military or some people in NYC are killed, right Phil? It doesn't affect you or your's. Now lay some more big word and superior thinking on me.The rest of you High roaders, think about what lengths you would go to save someone you really cared about. Btw do the Terrorists treat our people with respect?
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My prob stems from the fact that we prosecuted other nations military members as war criminals for doing this to our soldiers---but when we do it to our enemies its suddenly alright.
That paired with the fact that top interrogators had came out and said that most of the info gathered from these "terrorists" was gathered without the used of so-called enhanced interrogation techniques and the lead interrogator believed that it was unnecessary and even counter productive.
Why counter productive? Cuz anytime you inflict pain on someone--majority of the time they will tell you anything to get the pain to stop---that means telling you whatever you want to hear---and that is not always the truth.
But majority of you guys will trumpet "9/11" or "terrorists" or some crap like that like it gives us the right to torture people. It doesn't.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Legend
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In my best Gilbert Godfreid voice .... "Sheesh .. how long are u people gonna hang onto that 9/11 thing .. it happend 8 years ago ... only 3,000 people died .. and I couldn't hear the screams of any of the folks jumping off the Twin Towers scream anyhow ... so whats all the fuss over .. and besides it was our fault ... we made them do it .. Bush and Reagan may as well have been piloting the planes ... we brought it on ourselves ... get over it people ... " .. 
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Yea, and we are the same nation that dropped a nuclear weapon on two cities in Japan killing tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children. IMO, that is much worse than 9/11. Oh wait. 9/11 happened to us---so it is so much more heinous.  9/11 9/11 9/11 Seriously, get over it.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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